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Japanese dev decline: it isn't your games, it's your ego?

the timing of all these threads and comments is really weird. it's sort of yesterday's commentary on the state of japanese gaming, of the last five games I've played three have been japanese and I'm a pc exclusive gamer. given that's the situation I'm in I have a really hard time understanding the op.
 
ddp72984 said:
He does; his company's own Lost Planet 2, stating its game play was too mixed
He stated, “Lost Planet 1 was designed for the Western market. But the guys who made Lost Planet 2 were misguided. They made it too Japanese.”.

He’s blatantly talking about game design and playing the market to sell big(the latter of which you criticize in this very post).

Your position and Inafune’s are in blatant contradiction of each other, and I’m honestly not even sure why you’re so intent on the idea of having him on your side.
ddp72984 said:
No fucking way the Japanese companies do this as much as western based companies.
Source, please.

Also, you contradict that statement with this:
ddp72984 said:
True, probably the closest thing I can think of is how we get the occasional rerelease of a PC classic like Monkey Island, Sam & Max, Id titles, etc. I wish they would do more (especially coming from someone who didn't game on a PC in the eighties; it'd be a new world to me)
So either they do cater to people with rereleases or they don’t.


ddp72984 said:
Yeah, I like that stuff too, but these people are throwing that away in hopes of making that next COD that will sell millions upon millions. FFXIII is the perfect example of this; flash over content. And the worst thing is that the west is being blamed for such games, claiming that we're being catered to, despite the fact it's shit I personally wouldn't touch with a five foot pole.
A number of Western companies are chasing that kind of success, and throwing away their old fans and ambitions to do so.

Seriously, go to any ME2/3 or Dragon Age 2 thread and chances are you’ll find people saying this exact thing about Bioware.

This isn’t a region specific deal.
ddp72984 said:
That's the point. This isn't addressed to new/niche companies.
I’m sorry but “Japan” is a pretty broad group(and the “decline”, when brought up, usually IS referring to Japan’s entire industry), so you’ll have to excuse me if Ididn’t realize you were localizing the issue to a specific group.
ddp72984 said:
But they don't have the same rich heritage that the Japanese companies do. Add the fact it is the Japanese companies wanting to make more money. So why not?
Rich as in money? Or rich as in has things worth putting up? Either way, they definitely do.

Also, everyone wants to make more money. How is this something Japanese exclusive?
ddp72984 said:
I meant that they should follow the ideology of putting as much as they can online (outside of japan, mind you)
That’s fair.
ddp72984 said:
Because I can't really think of a western based developer that forces you to use motion controls for a hardcore based game.
Heavenly Sword(some parts require the PS3 controller’s tilting feature), Red Steel 2(Wii Motion+ only), Uncharted: Golden Abyss(requires you to use the Vita’s touchpad, if I remember correctly), and I doubt upcoming vita games won’t make use of the touchpad.
ddp72984 said:
The mainstream audience generally trades in their older systems to help pay for the newest stuff. Hell, GameStop already stopped selling ps2, xbox, and GameCube games, and soon PSP is on the chopping block. The only way to get said gems is to go hunting on eBay and amazon sellers.
The thing is, most of that mainstream audience probably doesn’t care for older games as much as you think.
ddp72984 said:
Sure. Why not all three?
Isn’t it pretty presumptuous to assume you speak for so many people?
ddp72984 said:
Yeah, Nintendo is successful, because like in the 80s with the original NES, they found the mainstream market. But with this in mind, Nintendo is also noted for cutting a lot of fucking corners, (graphics, online support, third party support, etc) and generally not giving two shits when being called out on it.
Then clearly that market they found isn’t giving much of a rat’s ass about those things.
ddp72984 said:
You mention SEGA, but in truth, isn't this what killed SEGA?
I dunno, is it?
 
I'm at a Japanese game dev. A world without Japanese video games is not a world I'd want to live in.

The Japanese style of creating games falls apart past a PS2 level game. There's tons of talented Japanese developers out there. Inafune is right, the system is burning them out or burying the passion of those who manage to survive. But like just about every other Japanese person waahing and bawwing over the state of the JP industry, Inafune completely misses the boat on efficient development methods.

Westerners simply demand more polish than what most Japanese developers are capable of delivering. Nintendo polishes their stuff up VERY nicely and gee, what do you know, Westerners like it, Japanese-ness and all. Vanquish brings speed and thrill to the TPS genre that Western counterparts lack. A Map maker for Vanquish would be beyond rad...

Polish is easier said than done, there are plenty of Western titles that are completely devoid of it.
 

Jackl

Member
From Software is pretty much the only Japanese studio that still has my faith.

Square, man. I don't even know where to begin. From the 7-10 year development times for mediocre games, to completely ignoring the western market. Note I am not asking to change or develop purely for western audiences. I just want their games to by translated, subtitled, and released in a fucking timely manner.
 
Lol. Japan has made the best third person shooters.

mj-laughing.gif


0382_s7tr.gif


HA_HA_HA_OH_WOW_xlarge.jpeg
 
Japenese developpers make game who stick with their culture. The typical japense game have a lot of suggestive sexual theme, players play most of the time someone under 18 and if you are unlucky enough the game will have some sick and twisted pedophile innuendo.

I think most of the gamers by now are now older and they realised that japenese games sucks and doesnt stick with what we love.

You will never see a good shooter like gears of war or something like fallout coming from japan but on the other hand they still have some verry popular rpg among the fans like Final Fantasy, disgea, persona and i dont see them changing the formula of these games.


I seriously think the real problem with the japenese game is nothing more than a cultural problem. They do games their way who stick with the japan culture thinking we still love to play a game where the hero is a 8yr old boy while in fact most of us right now prefer games with bad ass like Marcus Fenix or Nico bellic.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Thanks for that, haven't had a good laugh in a while. "LOL IM A BIG BOY NOW AND I PREFER SHOOTERS WITH BAD ASS LIKE GTA PROTAGONIST LOOL"
 

Jackl

Member
Honestly up until a few years ago I'd be hard pressed to think of a non-Japanese game I liked.

Asian games will always and a design and art style distinctly different from the west. Which makes me all the more depressed recently offerings have been lack luster.
 
Japenese developpers make game who stick with their culture. The typical japense game have a lot of suggestive sexual theme, players play most of the time someone under 18 and if you are unlucky enough the game will have some sick and twisted pedophile innuendo.

I think most of the gamers by now are now older and they realised that japenese games sucks and doesnt stick with what we love.

You will never see a good shooter like gears of war or something like fallout coming from japan but on the other hand they still have some verry popular rpg among the fans like Final Fantasy, disgea, persona and i dont see them changing the formula of these games.


I seriously think the real problem with the japenese game is nothing more than a cultural problem. They do games their way who stick with the japan culture thinking we still love to play a game where the hero is a 8yr old boy while in fact most of us right now prefer games with bad ass like Marcus Fenix or Nico bellic.

This is some deep trolling... right?
 
while I don't necessarily agree with this jim fear character, you guys seem to be missing a pretty good opportunity to understand what people other than you think is true.
 

demidar

Member
while I don't necessarily agree with this jim fear character, you guys seem to be missing a pretty good opportunity to understand what people other than you think is true.

Is the point that in video games, the enthusiast is beholden to the lowest common denominator?
 

Daschysta

Member
while I don't necessarily agree with this jim fear character, you guys seem to be missing a pretty good opportunity to understand what people other than you think is true.

It is pretty easy to understand that tons of people are insecure and express those insecurities in their game decisions. It doesn't really merit much more investigation, it is just saddening.
 
I just hope we can get a revival of console JRPG's next gen. Japanese RPG devs seemed to move wholesale to handhelds this gen, but I can't really get into handheld games unfortunately. Fingers crossed.
 

Naked Lunch

Member
Always talk about the downfall of Japanese games - but give me Dark/Demon Souls, Vanquish, Metal Gear, Bayonetta, Valkyrie Chronicles, Tekken, Deadly Premonition, Street Fighter, etc... over anything. Japan is still killing it. I look at my current gen library and outside of select FPS games like Halo and Battlefield, its the Japanese games I think most fondly of.
 
From Software is pretty much the only Japanese studio that still has my faith.

Square, man. I don't even know where to begin. From the 7-10 year development times for mediocre games, to completely ignoring the western market. Note I am not asking to change or develop purely for western audiences. I just want their games to by translated, subtitled, and released in a fucking timely manner.

Literally the only complaint I have with Japanese companies is... Given how large the English-speaking gaming community worldwide is, I wish they'd translate/localize their RPGs simultaneously as they input Japanese text.
 

Victrix

*beard*
Here's how this thread is going to go:

Weeaboos violently recoil at the suggestion that some Japanese devs might be more successful if they developed games that don't appeal exclusively to Japan, while vehemently denying that any good Japanese games have been aimed at a foreign or global audience.

Dudes go all Phil Fish and claim that Japanese games are bad, totally suck, haven't been good in years, will never be good, etc. for either petty, nonsensical reasons or no reason in particular.

People with a more nuanced perspective sit quietly and twiddle their thumbs as the above groups wage open warfare.

This is a summary of every gaf thread :V

(subtext is that it'd also be a boring forum if group 3 was a majority, because where's the fun in agreeing with each other when you can flame each other!)
 
Literally the only complaint I have with Japanese companies is... Given how large the English-speaking gaming community worldwide is, I wish they'd translate/localize their RPGs simultaneously as they input Japanese text.

For most JP companies, localization is still an afterthought. Even for games like Harvest Moon which sell better in the USA than Japan.

JP companies still make games with crammed UIs full of kanji with zero consideration for what putting them in English or better yet lol German would do. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
 

DeBurgo

Member
The only thing I have to say is that it's really weird that the name "Phil Fish" has become a sort rallying cry for this topic.
 

redcrayon

Member
Isn't it just a rebalancing of the industry? It seems unreasonable to expect the games industry of one country ( Japan), with it's own very distinct culture that is partly alien to outsiders, to compete with combined games industries and developers of two huge continents that have a largely shared cultural history.

Also those western countries, while having a shared history, also have smaller touchpoints that can make a game feel different while still familiar enough- the UK sense of humour, deep mechanics of German strategy games or a sense of bleakness surrounding Eastern European games (the Witcher, Stalker) springs to mind. Combined it gives a huge depth of culture to draw on in comparison.

The fact that Japan dominated in the past and gave us tens of beloved franchises that still exist now, as well as Nintendo, Sega, Capcom, Square, Sony etc etc was an amazing contribution, but the sheer economics involved when an entire generation of young, relatively wealthy westerners have wholeheartedly adopted the hobby as a popular pastime for adults as well as kids have changed the power balance.

I don't agree at all about the decline of individual game quality-
Shooters- Resident Evil, Vanquish, Binary Domain.
RPGs- Dark Souls and Xenoblade are quality stuff.
Strategy games- Valkyria Chronicles, Fire Emblem
Quirky stuff- Most of Ninty's output, LBP.

Sure the quality and numbers of the best Western games has rapidly grown to match or exceed their output, but both still produce tons of both great and crap games too, with plenty of stuff that looks weird or pandering to outsiders (the military hero-worship of shooters aimed western teenagers, anime stuff to Japanese teenagers) based on their respective culture.

I think there is still plenty of innovation to be found in Japanese games as they fight to compete globally and its been interesting to watch them try in the last few years, both the successes and failures (Lost Planet, Dark Souls, Vanquish, Sleeping Dogs, Xenoblade). If they keep trying new things or fusions of ideas at that rate, they'll still punch above their weight for a long, long time.

The western games they compete with should also watch out that they don't shoot themselves in the foot by continually chasing a wider audience and dumbing down stuff in the process, losing any sense of challenge in the rush to be films with QTEs.
 
Release another 5 western modern military shooters where the villian is a Russian!!!

Compared to the dozens of JRPG's with loli/ moe girl propagandists?

But yeah, your right. Both western and Japanese developers have their "fallback" genres. But for every one of these types of games there are plenty of original and creative stuff from both sides of the ocean.

I don't know if Japanese developers are in a decline.... though I think the old iron giants are starting to show their age (Konami, Capcom, Square-Enix), but there are newer studios that are continuing to bring life to the Japanese gaming industry. But perhaps the increase in gaming studios from other parts of the world are starting to over shadow things, maybe it only looks like Japanese developers are in decline even though the gaming world around them has gotten larger?
 

Anuxinamoon

Shaper Divine
To put things in perspective, compare the Japanese nuclear disaster to the video game industry, both are somewhat similar because in one case everything fell apart, and with the Japanese game industry everything is slowly falling apart. Or is it?

Why? Because no one listens to one another and no one communicates when there is a looming problem. It's easiest to ignore the problem because it's not upfront and in their face. This has been the Japanese way for a while, then again some would say this is a worldwide problem. When a problem is upfront and in their face then they have to deal with it. Let's take a look at the statement made by a panel investigating the Japanese nuclear disaster.

“Across the board, the Commission found ignorance and arrogance unforgivable for anyone or any organisation that deals with nuclear power. We found a disregard for global trends and a disregard for public safety,” the panel said.

If this were a independent panel investigating the decline of the Japanese video game industry, you'd change "nuclear power" to "video games", and change "public safety" to "public interest". Kind of a bold way to put it, but you get the idea.

In Japan, it's easier to overwork or pretend to overwork which is hoped will cover-up the problem and/or make it go away.

Why? Because Japan has old elderly men in charge with old thinking who think their way is the best way.

The U.S. and European sides want Japanese games to work, the old men in Japan don't always listen. It's thier way or no way.

A long time ago some of these old men in charge spent all of the company money on luxury items, hostess bars, expensive vacations, homes and didn't put company money in the bank to invest in their employees, new trends, and new development technology.

Another factor is that Japan doesn't have the investment money that it did back in the 1980's and 1990's. That money is gone because of the overall economy, the growing expense of technology, and overspending on stupid things like the ones mentioned above.

However, some of these old men (not all) are getting smart and are now opening up, starting to listen because they can't rely on the Japanese domestic market anymore. Some of them are panicking by copying the west, some are staying smart and are coming up with original ideas (the latter is the smart move).

You know what else is sad? Japanese game and toy companies have been putting the "Declining birthrate" as just one of the reasons sales are down.

Why? Same reason as above. No one is having sex in Japan, because everyone overworks and exhausts themselves. There is no time or energy to communicate with another human let alone have time for oneself. Therefor no one has the time or energy to maintain a relationship, get married and fuck. Pretty depressing. The anti-depressant or heroin to take away the pain has been the "kawaii" and "idol" singer culture that pushes people to "ganbarre!" and keep moving forward - plain and simple. Everyone is going to die alone into oblivion with this way of life. This is why no one has time for online offerings or interaction online. This culture is almost pushing a learned form of autism or a push into social anxiety where no one talks and no one speaks up. Pretty sad really.

It's not always like this. There are some people who hate all of this, see the problem and want to fix it.

This is what Inafune means when he says: "Japan has to change their way of thinking".

Why did Inafune leave Capcom? Why did Keita Takahashi leave Namco Bandai? Because they were tired of the large bureaucracy, corporate bullying and orders. Many others have quit altogether due to stress, exhaustion, nervous breakdowns, or (gasp) actually getting paid better in other forms of programming or design.

These guys will lead the way and take the secret of their success (creative freedom and a new evolving way of thinking) with them. So let them I say, let them lead the way.

All of the other big corporations, (Sega, Capcom, Square-Enix), are pouring water on a nuclear reactor that's not cooling. The meltdown has already come for some, and it will soon arrive for everyone else that doesn't communicate, evolve, find ways to work efficiently, and act fast.

These are all problems, but it's my hope they can be recognized, fixed or changed quickly.

As I read this post I was nodding.

Good post!
 

kevm3

Member
The art design in Japanese games in the 80s and 90s was dynamic and interesting. In the 2000s, it started to turn into a perfect doll in trenchcoat fest, which really turned me off.
 

sephi22

Member
Japenese developpers make game who stick with their culture. The typical japense game have a lot of suggestive sexual theme, players play most of the time someone under 18 and if you are unlucky enough the game will have some sick and twisted pedophile innuendo.

I think most of the gamers by now are now older and they realised that japenese games sucks and doesnt stick with what we love.

You will never see a good shooter like gears of war or something like fallout coming from japan but on the other hand they still have some verry popular rpg among the fans like Final Fantasy, disgea, persona and i dont see them changing the formula of these games.


I seriously think the real problem with the japenese game is nothing more than a cultural problem. They do games their way who stick with the japan culture thinking we still love to play a game where the hero is a 8yr old boy while in fact most of us right now prefer games with bad ass like Marcus Fenix or Nico bellic.
Terrible first post. SMH
 
Is the point that in video games, the enthusiast is beholden to the lowest common denominator?

that's true of every medium, a genuine enthusiast is rarely well served by mainstream products. that doesn't necessarily indicate a problem in my book.

It is pretty easy to understand that tons of people are insecure and express those insecurities in their game decisions. It doesn't really merit much more investigation, it is just saddening.

regardless of your opinion of the point of view, perception is reality in a lot of important contexts. perhaps it is saddening, I don't know, but that doesn't really change the fact that the japanese industry has to fight that kind of misconception in whatever ways possible if they want to eliminate it once and for all.

as I said earlier in the thread, I'm a pc gamer who has been playing loads of japanese games recently. to me the japanese gaming industry is having something of a renaissance, particularly when you read that platinum games are considering following from software to the pc with their western releases.

the thing which always bothers me in these threads is this inability to accept that cultural products which are saddled with a national identity are becoming a thing of the past. last year my game of the year list had games made in america, canada, england, poland and japan on it, and that's what I'd expect in the current era.
 

AppleMIX

Member
What are the best TPS then? Would love to know.

Ok I'll bite.

Off the top of my head...

When it comes to pure TPS:

Gears of War
Dead Space
Uncharted
Max Payne
Alan Wake


Anything outside of Vanquish and Resident Evil ranges from poor to mediocre.
 

AppleMIX

Member
my name is Binary Domain and I exist.

I've played some of it and I disagree.

The voice commands don't work 80% of the time, the story and characters is worse than Gears (a feat that I thought was impossible) and the PC version was busted with M&K when I played it. It's has some neat concepts but is ultimately poorly executed.
 
I've played some of it and I disagree.

The voice commands don't work 80% of the time, the story and characters is worse than Gears (a feat that I thought was impossible) and the PC version was busted with M&K when I played it. It's has some neat concepts but is ultimately poorly executed.

I haven't played the PC version, can't really defend its story or the voice control implementation but I think its still among the top tps out there. I found the core gameplay in BD very satisfying (which matter most to me in shooters), the boss fights were awesome and overall the game felt very fresh. Below are my impressions for the games you listed, I realize I guess I'm not really the biggest fan of tps' after all (I LOVE Vanquish though)

Gears of War - First one was a pretty amazing looking (for its time) Unreal Engine showcase than a real game, the second one was meh and third one....yeah overall it was very solid, yet totally undeserving of the perfect scores it received. The game has horrible story, characters, and boss fights, the level design is nothing to write home about and the core mechanics gets a stale after some time.

Dead Space - First one was a personal favorite of mine but EA later turned the ip into a soulless series when they decided make it "AAA"

Uncharted - I really really detest the philosophy of cinematic approach in "adventure" games so I wanna refrain from talking shit but I can't. From what I see these are successful entertainment products that are horrible horrible titles games as I understand & love them.

Max Payne - Loved the original on PC, somehow I have zero interest in the other entries.

Alan Wake - Haven't played the sequel but the original is not even a shooter yet alone an action heavy title. The game's strong points are the mood, the setting, story, mood etc not the 3rd person mechanics. I gotta play the XBLA sequel though people say it's more action oriented & better than the original.
 

danmaku

Member
Ok I'll bite.

Off the top of my head...

When it comes to pure TPS:

Gears of War
Dead Space
Uncharted
Max Payne
Alan Wake


Anything outside of Vanquish and Resident Evil ranges from poor to mediocre.

You should add Silent Hill 2, World of Warcraft and Tekken 6 to that list. You play in 3rd person and well... sometimes you shoot.
 

McBradders

NeoGAF: my new HOME
Ok I'll bite.

Off the top of my head...

When it comes to pure TPS:

Gears of War
Dead Space
Uncharted
Max Payne
Alan Wake


Anything outside of Vanquish and Resident Evil ranges from poor to mediocre.

Alan Wake is a fucking terrible shooter, you are grasping at straws there. I wouldn't call Uncharted a "pure" TPS, either and Binary Domain is awesome.
 

IpKaiFung

Member
As someone who plays mostly on the PC (started with Civ 1) I've found western games to be getting worse D:

All I see is generic military shooter game featuring steroidman or I end up playing a game from 1998 with newer graphics (Starcraft 2) The only game from a western studio that I am eagerly awaiting is Company of Heroes 2.

Since PC games have been a large disappointment for me I've been mostly playing japanese games on the consoles. While they don't have the graphical fidelity or cinematic presentation of western games the gameplay has been top notch for me which is something I've found lacking in a lot of games recently.
 
Disagree with the OP almost entirely. It also annoys me how the Japanese dev scene is compared to the rest of the world to prove this point. No shit that a country with like 100 million people struggles to beat the rest of the world combined in terms of developing games. That was never going to remain that way forever.
 

Business

Member
To put it shortly, the majority of Japanese games this gen seemed like HD PS2 games to me, both in game mechanics and technically.
 

AppleMIX

Member
You should add Silent Hill 2, World of Warcraft and Tekken 6 to that list. You play in 3rd person and well... sometimes you shoot.

The gameplay mechanics of each of the games I listed focus predominately on shooting. Whereas the games you listed do not.

Alan Wake is a fucking terrible shooter, you are grasping at straws there. I wouldn't call Uncharted a "pure" TPS, either and Binary Domain is awesome.

The vast majority of your time is Uncharted is spent shooting.
 

alstein

Member
I know they should make games for people who look like this

mclovin-walking.jpg

You mean Dredmor?


As someone who plays mostly on the PC (started with Civ 1) I've found western games to be getting worse D:

All I see is generic military shooter game featuring steroidman or I end up playing a game from 1998 with newer graphics (Starcraft 2) The only game from a western studio that I am eagerly awaiting is Company of Heroes 2.

Since PC games have been a large disappointment for me I've been mostly playing japanese games on the consoles. While they don't have the graphical fidelity or cinematic presentation of western games the gameplay has been top notch for me which is something I've found lacking in a lot of games recently.

Indy PC gaming. Very few generic military shooters there. The choice is there, it's not just being made by the AAA studios- who I don't need.

Japanese developers don't need to be AAA to make awesome games, they just need to make some awesome games,and understand how to sell games in the western market (DD)
 
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