yep this, I'll stick to web development where the pay is better as well.
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Jason Schreier has heard it's impossible to find senior leads due to mass dev burnout
- Thread starter Nirolak
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yep this, I'll stick to web development where the pay is better as well.
pixelpatr0n
Banned
Brothers/Sisters in misery we stand together
Love your Icon!!! TG16 forever!!
eyeball_kid
Member
I knew someone who was a lead on the PS2 Spider-Man titles. The work was brutal, but he stayed as long as he could to save up money, then did an early retirement in a place where the money would last.
I was looking at job postings for Naughty Dog on Glassdoor last night, and I started looking at employee reviews of the company. There were many typical complaints about crunch, including stuff like:
"If you don't mind your soul being destroyed by the crunch, it's a great place to work."
"Insane crunch hours, little to no recognition or acknowledgment"
"Absolutely no creative scope planning and scheduling which leads to an irresponsible amount of crunch and waste. There seemed to be very little acknowledgement by studio leadership of this issue."
But one in particular really struck me, in effect saying: "Your spouse has to be okay with you not being around."
What spouse is okay with that? This is not sustainable on a human level. It's no wonder people leave past their early 20's.
I was looking at job postings for Naughty Dog on Glassdoor last night, and I started looking at employee reviews of the company. There were many typical complaints about crunch, including stuff like:
"If you don't mind your soul being destroyed by the crunch, it's a great place to work."
"Insane crunch hours, little to no recognition or acknowledgment"
"Absolutely no creative scope planning and scheduling which leads to an irresponsible amount of crunch and waste. There seemed to be very little acknowledgement by studio leadership of this issue."
But one in particular really struck me, in effect saying: "Your spouse has to be okay with you not being around."
What spouse is okay with that? This is not sustainable on a human level. It's no wonder people leave past their early 20's.
AmayaPapaya
Banned
I just got a degree involving Software Development, and half the people in the CS/Engineering school were there, at least partially, because of the influence video games had on their life (those involved with Software, specifically). The only people who want to work on video games are the ones who are in the specific major for it, and most of them want to go work at Blizzard or go Indy.
Pretty much everyone who has the skills and likes video games, doesn't want to enter the field. I'm posting on a video game forum, and wouldn't touch video game development with a ten-foot pole. A software developer is one of the best jobs you can get, why would you trade that in to go work on video games? Literally one of the worst jobs in America vs some of the best. It's no contest.
Pretty much everyone who has the skills and likes video games, doesn't want to enter the field. I'm posting on a video game forum, and wouldn't touch video game development with a ten-foot pole. A software developer is one of the best jobs you can get, why would you trade that in to go work on video games? Literally one of the worst jobs in America vs some of the best. It's no contest.
FallingEdge
Member
game dev isn't worth it
you can get paid more with less stress in a different developmental field
you can get paid more with less stress in a different developmental field
Bloodporne
Member
For all I had known, games were created in a magical wonderland and fell from the sky for me to enjoy.
Never read a thread like this on GAF before and the work conditions described here are mindblowingly shit. I work in construction, the office side, where we have pretty harsh due dates etc. and even I can't fathom putting up with shit like an 80+ hour work week for longer than 6 months.
Hats off and my condolences all at the same time.
Never read a thread like this on GAF before and the work conditions described here are mindblowingly shit. I work in construction, the office side, where we have pretty harsh due dates etc. and even I can't fathom putting up with shit like an 80+ hour work week for longer than 6 months.
Hats off and my condolences all at the same time.
As a lead engineer who is on a very large project for an international client which has faced poor planning & project management from the get go, I completely understand this statement.
I've been doing this for over 2 years now and its living hell. A lot of the team and I have been working 19 hour days.
I just want to throw in the towel, its extremely hard. I feel like my mental & physical health are both suffering.
I've been doing this for over 2 years now and its living hell. A lot of the team and I have been working 19 hour days.
I just want to throw in the towel, its extremely hard. I feel like my mental & physical health are both suffering.
AtomicShroom
Member
Let's also not forget that game dev isn't the same gold mine that it was during the early days. Back when development teams consisted of generally no more than 20 people, everybody was getting a huge-ass payoff from even the slightest million seller.
I remember reading how following the success of some N64-era Rare game (I think it was GoldenEye?), suddenly most of the employees showed up to work in Porsches and Ferraris almost overnight.
Unless you manage to con your way up No Man's Sky-style, you're not going to see something like this anymore. These days, with productions needing 300+ employees, the salaries are getting less and less interesting year after year, unless you're a lead 3d engine architect programmer or some such.
I remember reading how following the success of some N64-era Rare game (I think it was GoldenEye?), suddenly most of the employees showed up to work in Porsches and Ferraris almost overnight.
Unless you manage to con your way up No Man's Sky-style, you're not going to see something like this anymore. These days, with productions needing 300+ employees, the salaries are getting less and less interesting year after year, unless you're a lead 3d engine architect programmer or some such.
This is what I did, few of my friends in college noped out and went indie, just decided to go web and app.
mattwhite924
Member
Doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
Those same devs can get a better paying job, with less overtime, and far better job stability outside of the game industry.
I thought about going into game development. I love games, and I was studying to be a programmer, so it made sense to me at the time, but I'm glad I didn't. Regular development might be more boring, but at least I'm stress-free, have decent pay, and have time for my friends, family, and girlfriend.
Those same devs can get a better paying job, with less overtime, and far better job stability outside of the game industry.
I thought about going into game development. I love games, and I was studying to be a programmer, so it made sense to me at the time, but I'm glad I didn't. Regular development might be more boring, but at least I'm stress-free, have decent pay, and have time for my friends, family, and girlfriend.
Its perfectly healthy for the industry to churn through a lot of young talent, they can stay or leave based on their own lives and interests and there will always be more to replace them. But it is very much not healthy to be so unfulfilling for the lead developers that they leave the industry without having fully developed their own skills let alone properly train the next generation. It causes quality to stagnate, so other models for creating entertainment that are better organized will improve more quickly and steal their business.
SprachBrooks
Member
Stop announcing shit years in advance and you wouldnt cultivate such an attitude. Lets not blame the people buying the games here, for fucks sake.
SprachBrooks
Member
Grow up.
Yuuuup. Game devs I know work way more hours and make less than I do. It's an insane value proposition.
chrominance
Member
I think the argument being made is that senior dev positions get posted all the time, and increasingly it's taking forever to find candidates to fill them. What this implies is that the pool of developers willing and able to take these positions isn't big enough.
Assuming you need these senior positions in order to get stuff done--and chances are, you do--that means one of two things happen. One is that the pool of developers gets bigger. People in senior positions are much more likely to have families and want better life-work balances; the industry could directly address those things to keep people in the industry. The other option is the industry decides it actually doesn't need those senior dev positions after all, and keeps going with younger workers with less experience and fewer career demands. Presumably there is a drop in quality associated with doing so, but it's nebulous and hazy enough that I can absolutely see some developers trying to do this.
How so?
Hypereides
Member
Generally, the various entertainment industries seem to have a less than appealing reputation for employment these days.
Interficium
Banned
but gaf told me most devs are lazy except when it comes to implementing microtransactions and screwing over our consumer rights so how can this possibly be true
Now crunch time is not a one time thing, service games tend to be in perpetual crunch time.
I thought devs had no control over microtransactions and that there is some other department that decides monetization on game functions?
Varies significantly per publisher.
Often developers are incentivized, but not required to include microtransactions, and then they decide how to do it.
They usually have embedded monetization designers as well.
Some publishers will centralize, but it tends to work less well.
Not a game dev (so correct me if wrong) but if it's a major studio release I imagine the requirements based around micro transactions are determined by management and accounting. They'll likely have the data that says the time spent adding those "features" in more than makes up for the cost of implementation. It also gives the game a longer revenue stream.
In a F2P game I imagine the monetization scheme is the second conversation behind "what game do we make?" and more than just the bean counters work on solving that problem.
Interficium
Banned
I just think it's funny that Gaf condemns the "working conditions" of the industry while simultaneously being the first to freak the fuck out about dev laziness if a AAA dares to release without like, HDR or some shit like that.
The literal worst crunch culture studio in the industry is the one that receives the most near-universal praise on Gaf.
Neil Druckmann: "How do you avoid crunch? Don't try to make Game of the Year."
The literal worst crunch culture studio in the industry is the one that receives the most near-universal praise on Gaf.
Neil Druckmann: "How do you avoid crunch? Don't try to make Game of the Year."
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
What's the point of working someone more than 55 hours a week.
Isn't the marginal productivity over that level basically 0?
Isn't the marginal productivity over that level basically 0?
Cuningas de Häme
Member
Funny how some people blast unions and say that they won't help...
I live in Europe, a Nordic country and almost everyone is a member of a union. From cleaning staff to higher execs.
You pay a small amount of money and get almost unlimited help. There's no downsides.
ESPECIALLY in a field that relies on creative, talented professionals.
USA sucks, and I would never live there. Everything in your society aims at abusing people, taking everything they own and after that shitting on your grave. It is just horrible. I really feel for you guys.
I live in Europe, a Nordic country and almost everyone is a member of a union. From cleaning staff to higher execs.
You pay a small amount of money and get almost unlimited help. There's no downsides.
ESPECIALLY in a field that relies on creative, talented professionals.
USA sucks, and I would never live there. Everything in your society aims at abusing people, taking everything they own and after that shitting on your grave. It is just horrible. I really feel for you guys.
Netherscourge
Banned
This is true for many industries.
The best and most successful talent pretty much gives up family life to focus completely on their job.
You very rarely can have both a family you regularly spend time with and a high-end, high-expectation, deadline-oriented, critically demanding job with publishers and shareholders breathing down your neck for results.
Juggling those things with a family is impossible.
The best and most successful talent pretty much gives up family life to focus completely on their job.
You very rarely can have both a family you regularly spend time with and a high-end, high-expectation, deadline-oriented, critically demanding job with publishers and shareholders breathing down your neck for results.
Juggling those things with a family is impossible.
Unpopular opinion, but modern games are simply too cheap for the resources they require to make. Games haven't increased in price anywhere near enough compared to the cost of making them, and that means projects don't get the actual staffing they need and instead everyone has to crunch for months.
Megatron
Member
Without capitalism we wouldn't have gaming.
Hypereides
Member
Just an observation, but it seems like some people, not restricted to GAF, are starting to express more understanding as to why devs release some games in less than finished states.
What The Forest Taught Me
Member
Nailed it.
Yeah. Tech absolutely needs to be on top of this, but SV has a ready supply of bros so that's not happening anytime soon sadly
The Uncharted 4 chapter of Jason's book has so far been particularly disturbing. I actually got really angry at the quote from (I think) one of the ND co-owners about "Well we don't technically "require" any crunch, they just want to do it!"
At some point if you pride yourself as a company employing humans, maybe turn off the fucking lights at a certain point so people have to go home.
Oh, but then you wouldn't get Game of the Year. Right.
No surprise there. I (and others of course) have been saying this isn't sustainable for almost 10 years now. Yearly sequels to massive games with realistic visuals and online mutliplayer that have to tick every single buzzword check mark... and then sell far below expectations and you're expected to immediately do it all over again.
If that isn't the textbook definition of unsustainable, I don't know what is.
If that isn't the textbook definition of unsustainable, I don't know what is.
dukeoflegs
Member
I've been in the game industry for almost 10 years now in a senior and manager positions. The last two jobs I had had excellent work life balance and I thought I hit it out of the park when I was hired on at those companies. I lost the later job when two of our teams were outsourced to India and I lost the former job when the company couldn't get financial backing (VR).
I've been unemployed for 4 months and trying to get out of the game industry. What sucks is every company I've applied for outside of the game industry wont hire me because of the lack of long term employment. For the past 7 years most of the jobs I've had have been less than a year because of the way of the industry, your hired on under contract until the game ships or the game is sunset.
A couple days ago I interviewed with a large game company that recently set up shop here in the Puget Sound area and the hiring director was surprised at how many people she talks to ask if the positions are contract or FTE. I guess where the main office is there are few contract positions across the board.
If I would have know the industry was like this when I went to college in 2004 I would have skipped it, got a job at Boeing, and have a nice pension going right now.
I've been unemployed for 4 months and trying to get out of the game industry. What sucks is every company I've applied for outside of the game industry wont hire me because of the lack of long term employment. For the past 7 years most of the jobs I've had have been less than a year because of the way of the industry, your hired on under contract until the game ships or the game is sunset.
A couple days ago I interviewed with a large game company that recently set up shop here in the Puget Sound area and the hiring director was surprised at how many people she talks to ask if the positions are contract or FTE. I guess where the main office is there are few contract positions across the board.
If I would have know the industry was like this when I went to college in 2004 I would have skipped it, got a job at Boeing, and have a nice pension going right now.
What The Forest Taught Me
Member
Great post, and so true.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Amazing what happens when big companies take advantage of workers because they're scared they won't be able to find employment elsewhere. It's almost as if there was a reason unions needed to be so big in the country.
Senior Art positions are probably the easiest to get and have the most straight-forward application process. There's also a quite big demand for senior talent.
What you seem to be looking for or applying for are lead/supervisor roles where you don't do much actual work and rather direct and manage others. These are harder to come by, naturally, and need either connections or extremely strong portfolios.
Man, that part about the marketing is so true. makes a ton of sense, but sucks. There is just so much noise these days and it sucks that so many legitimately great games get overlooked or sell so far below expectations.
Basically this
Angelus Errare
Banned
Yup. Better pay, better work/life balance by far. Staying in game development does seem like paradise for those "live to work" types though.
Interficium
Banned
Or maybe, just maybe, people like you just aren't buying enough of those games for them to get made anymore.
Ultimately, everything bad or good in this industry boils down to you, the consumer. Gamers love to boogeyman Activision or EA or whoever but the reality is, they're only doing what you proved to be worthwhile.
Why are the single-player offline narrative-driven games GAF loves so much not being made as much anymore? You didn't buy enough of them.
Why are their microtransactions in games? Because the cost of making games has exponentially increased, but you told publishers that you refuse to pay any more for a new game then you did 5, 10, and 15 years ago.
And so on and so forth.
family_guy
Member
I don't see how any consumer of games can make this statement. Do you want the industry to crash?
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
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