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[DaGwaphics]

Wukong says otherwise about diminishing returns.

What is the diminishing returns are the stupid western devs are becoming more and more idiots .

I honestly don't think Wukong does much to fight against the idea of diminishing returns.

 

[Fbh]

But games like Cyberpunk 2077 and Black Myth Wukong couldn't even run on the PS4.

I mean I'm sure there are plenty of current gen games that either wouldn't run on Ps4 or would really struggle to do so:
Alan Wake 2, FFXVI, Space Marine 2, A Plague Tale Requiem, Robocop, Star War Outlaws, That Avatar game from last year, etc.

My argument isn't that graphics couldn't keep improving after Ps4. My argument is that if these games scaled back their visuals to the point where they could run on Ps4 they would still look good AND they'd be able to run on a base ps5/SX at proper 60fps with a decent resolution and decent IQ instead of struggling to hit 60 with a blurry image full of FSR smearing from trying to upscale some 720p source.
To me, graphics last gen got good enough where personally I think last gen visuals at 60fps with good IQ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Next gen graphics at 30fps or 60ishfps with horrible IQ.

That said, and since you brought up Cyberpunk, I will concede that last gen still struggled with densely packed open world urban environments (natural open world environments already look great with stuff like Red Dead 2 and Forbidden West). I think that specific type of setting wasn't good enough yet and did indeed need an extra gen (probably more from the CPU and SSD side of things).

 

[Mr Moose]

I don't even own an Xbox you weirdo lol

You don't own a screen?
Checkmate, green rat!

 

[kevboard]

If I had to guess, he's looking at PS4 games that actually managed to get ported to Switch, i.e.

DOOM
Wolfenstein 2
Dragon Quest XI
DBZ FighterZ/Kakarot
Nier Automata
Alien Isolation
The Witcher 3
Dying Light etc.

These (and more) are all games that were released on PS4 and were, for the most part, successfully ported to the Switch.

that still doesn't change the fact that the Switch is way closer to a 360 than a PS4 in nearly every metric except VRAM.

so I find it very strange to say the Switch is close to the capabilities of a PS4

 

[kevboard]

I honestly don't think Wukong does much to fight against the idea of diminishing returns.

worse even, it kinda confirms it.
does Wukong look significantly better than, say TLOU2? I'd say no.

meanwhile in order to get to 60fps on a PS5 it would need to run at around 720p internally, while TLOU2 comfortably reaches 60fps at 1440p, so 4x the resolution.

in order to add the small visual flairs a game like Wukong has over a game like TLOU2, you need to reduce the render resolution by 75% to get the same performance.

that's the textbook definition of diminishing returns. every step towards more impressive graphics needs more and more hardware power for increasingly less return on additional fidelity.

there is a reason AI powered upsampling and frame generation is pushed hard by Nvidia because they absolutely know that this is the only way to actually push better graphics without destroying image quality and fluidity

this is also why they are pushing Raytracing as hard as they can, because they also knew that rasterisation will hit its limits soon (basically already has) and they need a new path forward.

 

[RodriGames40]

PS4 and Switch have the same level of graphics for the vast majority of people. They both run Skyrim, Fornite, Overwatch, Mortal Kombat, Worms WMD, Minecraft, Roblox etc. The market does not give a shit about ray traced puddles. Check the Immortals of Avenum sales. Gaming has passed us by GAF. Accept it. There will still be games we like, but we don't really matter anymore to the big publishers. Enjoy the couple dozen twilight releases we're going to get over the next few years and hope that AI tools can help indies make us the giant moonshot games we love.

Boots The Witcher 3 on Switch

Yeah... Sure chief.

 

[kazuyamishima]

Jason forgets that the switch launched at $299, it then had a $199 iteration and finished with a $349 one.

The introductory system is ¥23000 and it attracts a lot of casuals.

 

[mckmas8808]

I honestly don't think Wukong does much to fight against the idea of diminishing returns.

It literally can't run on a PS4. There isn't anymore more diminishing than that!

 

[Gambit2483]

that still doesn't change the fact that the Switch is way closer to a 360 than a PS4 in nearly every metric except VRAM.

so I find it very strange to say the Switch is close to the capabilities of a PS4

True, but for the average consumer that doesn't matter. All they know is that for $250 they can get a portable that plays Nintendo 1st party titles and ps4-level games (Witcher 3, Alien Isolation, Nier Automata, Persona 5, etc.), decently...and that's why Switch is dominating in sales.

 

[cash_longfellow]

Here we go with Jason using big words trying to stay relevant…

 

[SegaSnatcher]

I've never been a fan of his takes.

Does he take issue with the IPAD Pro when the regular Air is good enough for like 99% of people?

 

[kevboard]

True, but for the average consumer that doesn't matter. All they know is that for $250 they can get a portable that plays Nintendo 1st party titles and ps4-level games (Witcher 3, Alien Isolation, etc.), decently...and that's why Switch is dominating in sales.

we do have to strecth the definition of decently here... but I guess so...

 

[ReBurn]

Ok master.

I guess he never heard of "new news new thread"

 

[recursive]

They need some special kind of miracle to save their current state like Nintendo x Playstation console or something, if they stopped thinking as brands and start thinking as Japanese then they may come up with something, instead of feeding us with forgettable indies.

Wtf are you talking about?

 

[nnytk]

Wipeout doesn't interest me. That's what I mean the Nintendo crowd just has different taste and that's ok.

I think what Sony has been doing is great and I frankly don't want them changing anything or trying to trend chase Nintendo. I think the gameplay is very fun in their games and I enjoy it a bunch. GOW combat is fun as hell. TLOU 2 combat is very fun. I thought Horizon FW was amazing. I'm enjoying every single thing Sony puts out and all those series sell very well. Sure they aren't reaching the sales Nintendo has but that's ok.

I totally respect that. But the games you mention are pretty high in dev cost and production value - with lengthy dev cycles. Is this sustainable?

I believe that's something where they can learn from indie devs and Nintendo.

Or how to, sometimes, do more with less. Astrobot and Helldivers 2 being great examples of that.

 

[The Infectious Paradox]

You brother is the extreme minority. Please understand that.



Exactly! He sounds like a guy that just lost his love for new hardware and the latest gaming tech. Maybe he should ask himself if he still wants to be a gamer or just a reporter talking about games.



LOL!!! VR has it's limits as to how many people want to game that way. Playing on a TV or a big monitor is what the majority of people want to do.



NO! Some of us hate the idea of gaming on a PC. Stop trying to recruit us. We good.

Fine. But there are still people considering. And imo it's worth it. It's for those people.

 

[DaGwaphics]

It literally can't run on a PS4. There isn't anymore more diminishing than that!

That's not what diminishing returns refers to. It's about what the final image looks like and the amount of processing power needed to render a noticeable better image.

 

[XXL]

If people truly didn't care about graphics or performance and only cared about price.....the Series S would be outselling PS5 (by a large margin).....

MS wouldn't be flirting with shutting down their console business and porting their games to PS5 and the PS5 Pro.

The Series S was half the price of the PS5, always has fire sales, gave away games for (pretty much) free and people still didn't want it...

People should step into fucking reality.

 

[DaGwaphics]

If people truly didn't care about graphics or performance and only cared about price.....the Series S would be outselling PS5 (by a large margin).....

MS wouldn't be flirting with shutting down their console business and porting their games to PS5 and the PS5 Pro.

The Series S was half the price of the PS5, always has fire sales, gave away games for (pretty much) free and people still didn't want it...

People should step into fucking reality.

One brands popularity over another is irrelevant to the point you thought you were making there.

Trust me, the PS5 will continue to outsell the Pro, just as the PS4 did because PS buyers value the price more than the graphics. And, if Sony had a series S style console they would probably be looking at pushing 200m units for the generation.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

One brands popularity over another is irrelevant to the point you thought you were making there.

Trust me, the PS5 will continue to outsell the Pro, just as the PS4 did because PS buyers value the price more than the graphics. And, if Sony had a series S style console they would probably be looking at pushing 200m units for the generation.

Price is a big factor. I wouldn't be surprised if Sony releases a PS5 Super Slim for much cheaper towards the end of the gen, especially as they try and pick up their kid friendly content.

Even the current base digital PS5 is eventually going to drop to 300-350.

The situation with the Switch 2 is going to be very different than the situation with the Switch.

The Switch 2 might be MORE expensive than the PS5 Digital within a year. Sony is going to have interesting decisions to make next year.

 

[XXL]

That's not what diminishing returns refers to. It's about what the final image looks like and the amount of processing power needed to render a noticeable better image.

People have been talking about diminishing returns since the PS2...

It a fallacy.

Games are much more advanced in a ton of ways and I say this as someone who plays a ton of old games on Steam.

Deus Ex Human Revolution (which I just played) for example is an amazing game, but the environments in the game are pretty much barren and empty in most places. On PS3 it was like 640p and 25fps.

I'm playing Half Life 2 right now in VR, again amazing game, but it's pretty fucking barren as well.

Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart (for example) is so god damn dense with detail, like literally 1000x more going on (than those games) and is running at a pretty high resolution at 60fps on PS5.

There is a night and day difference in the technological progress on display between those games.

Here's a quick example of Ratchet on PS2 vs Ratchet on PS5.

PS2

PS5

What are we talking about here?

 

[Zannegan]

People have been talking about diminishing returns since the PS2...

It a fallacy.

Games are much more advanced in a ton of ways and I say this as someone who plays a ton of old games on Steam.

Deus Ex Human Revolution (which I just played) for example is an amazing game, but the environments in the game are pretty much barren and empty in most places. On PS3 it was like 640p and 25fps.

I'm playing Half Life 2 right now in VR, again amazing game, but it's pretty fucking barren as well.

Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart (for example) is so god damn dense with detail, like literally 1000x more going on (than those games) and is running at a pretty high resolution at 60fps on PS5.

There is a night and day difference in the technological progress on display between those games.

Here's a quick example of Ratchet on PS2 vs Ratchet on PS5.

PS2

PS5

What are we talking about here?

Now post images of Ratchet on PS3 and then PS4 in between those two. For good measure, include a chart of the relative computational power of each console (and, if you really want to get into it, the development time and cost of each title). If the concept of diminishing returns doesn't become apparent at that point, then I don't know what to tell you.

No one's saying there isn't a difference, just that the leap is getting less and less noticeable with each passing generation, and the computational cost to get to a significant jump keeps going up.

 

[XXL]

No one's saying there isn't a difference, just that the leap is getting less and less noticeable with each passing generation.

It's just not true.

Demon Souls PS3

Demon Souls PS5

That looks exactly like a two gen difference to me. It's literally not even fucking close.

Also note worthy is

Demon Souls PS3 runs at like 720p, 25fps.

Demons Souls PS5 runs at like 1440p, 60fps.

Nostalgia is undefeated.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

It's news to me that the Switch is considered to be as powerful as a PS4. But that is splitting hairs.

There is just no way to deny the diminishing returns in regards to graphics at this point. I know some hate that thought, but it just seems to be a reality at this point. Maybe the first rounds of graphene gpus will shake that up.

And because of diminishing returns you need to spend way more (4090) than the console market is willing to accept.

 

[Haint]

It's just not true.

Demon Souls PS3

Demon Souls PS5

That looks exactly like a two gen difference to me. It's literally not even fucking close.

Nostalgia is a undefeated.

He's not wrong, these generations are 15 years apart, which was the time span between NES and PS2, or damn near PS1 to PS4. You're also comparing one of the most technically incompetent developers in the industry (quadruplely so back then), to one of the best. Something like Uncharted 2, 3, or TLoU are more like for like peers to Bluepoint, and would stand up much more favorably than trash department Fromsoft. 4 years on, DS Remake is still like a top 3 best looking PS5 game, OG Demon Soul wasn't even in the top 100 of PS3 when it was new, nevermind 4 years on.

 

[Pimpbaa]

Of course sales are lagging behind the ps4. They haven’t dropped the price of the standard/slim ps5. They are reaching saturation of it’s current price point.

 

[DryvBy]

PS5 is behind PS4 in sales?

No, Jason is just a moron.

 

[Kotaro]

It's just not true.

Demon Souls PS3

Demon Souls PS5

That looks exactly like a two gen difference to me. It's literally not even fucking close.

Also note worthy is

Demon Souls PS3 runs at like 720p, 25fps.

Demons Souls PS5 runs at like 1440p, 60fps.

Nostalgia is undefeated.

I don't play graphics.

I'll pick older generations with rich and deep gameplay over current graphic-porn generation with shallow gameplay

 

[Zannegan]

It's just not true.

Demon Souls PS3

Demon Souls PS5

That looks exactly like a two gen difference to me. It's literally not even fucking close.

Nostalgia is a undefeated.

Come on. Look at what you're doing here. Intentionally or unintentionally you:
Modify the post to cut out key points (re: increasing costs--computational, budgetary, dev time). Drop your first example without addressing the challenge to it. Cherry pick a new example which (even setting aside the massive differences in budget, dev time, studio size, the studio itself, etc.) still has to go back two gens to show that significant difference.

I'm trying not to be cynical, but this whole reply whiffs of bait.

To your point, Demon's Souls Remake looks great (technically). It's widely haled as being among if not the best looking game on PS5. It just doesn't do much as a counterargument against diminishing returns, which has more and better examples to work with.

Choose any series that has spanned the last few generations of console hardware: Mario*, Sonic, God of War, Halo, Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty, Ratchet, etc. etc. In any of these franchises, you'll definitely notice the generational leaps, but those jumps become less significant and more costly with each passing gen, and that's with console lifespans being longer than ever. Diminishing returns doesn't mean hardware upgrades are worthless, they're just worth less each time, visually.

*For the sake of fairness, we can count the Wii and GC and the Wii U and Switch as being the same "graphical generation."

 

[XXL]

He's not wrong, these generations are 15 years apart, which was the time span between NES and PS2, or damn near PS1 to PS4. You're also comparing one of the most technically incompetent developers in the industry (quadruplely so back then), to one of the best. Something like Uncharted 2, 3, or TLoU are more like for like peers to Bluepoint, and would stand up much more favorably than trash department Fromsoft. 4 years on DS Remake is still like a top 3 best looking PS5 game, OG Demon Soul wasn't even in the top 100 of PS3 when it was new, nevermind 4 years on.

Come on. Look at what you're doing here. Intentionally or unintentionally you:
Modify the post to cut out key points (re: increasing costs--computational, budgetary, dev time). Drop your first example without addressing the challenge to it. Cherry pick a new example which (even setting aside the massive differences in budget, dev time, studio size, the studio itself, etc.) still has to go back two gens to show that significant difference.

I'm trying not to be cynical, but this whole reply whiffs of bait.

To your point, Demon's Souls Remake looks great (technically). It's widely haled as being among if not the best looking game on PS5. It just doesn't do much as a counterargument against diminishing returns, which has more and better examples to work with.

Choose any series that has spanned the last few generations of console hardware: Mario*, Sonic, God of War, Halo, Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty, Ratchet, etc. etc. In any of these franchises, you'll definitely notice the generational leaps, but those jumps become less significant and more costly with each passing gen, and that's with console lifespans being longer than ever. Diminishing returns doesn't mean hardware upgrades are worthless, they're just worth less each time, visually.

*For the sake of fairness, we can count the Wii and GC and the Wii U and Switch as being the same "graphical generation."

MSG3

MGS4

MGS5

DS2

The newer games are also running at higher resolutions and framerates with larger playable spaces, destructible environments, more mechanics, more animations, physics, faster loading, more vehicles, companions, etc.

 

[Zannegan]

MSG3

MGS4

MGS5

DS2

The newer games are also running at higher resolutions and framerates with larger playable spaces, destructible environments, more mechanics, more animations, more vehicles, companions, etc.

So, better each generation, but with less appreciable difference between each generation. Chuck MGS 1 on there to make the curve even more apparent.

I see your data, but I think it's actually proving my point. Each game is doing more and more than its predecessor, resolution included, but the effect is less and less noticeable. Honestly, resolution is one of the best examples of diminishing returns in action.

 

[XXL]

So, better each generation, but with less appreciable difference between each generation. Chuck MGS 1 on there to make the curve even more apparent.

I see your data, but I think it's actually proving my point. Each game is doing more and more than its predecessor, resolution included, but the effect is less and less noticeable. Honestly, resolution is one of the best examples of diminishing returns in action.

We can just agree to disagree.

 

[polybius80]

Even though there are a lot of mistakes in this article, this sentence here simply proves one thing. Which is that has Sony simply failed to sell the PS5 as a technological leap to not just consumers but also journos who simply havent seen anything from these Sony studios that looks a generation better.

he said switch looks like a PS4, how exactly you plan to show a generational leap to someone that cannot see the difference?

 

[Dirk Benedict]

We didn't need him to tell us that. many of us, here, have known for years. AKA Diminishing Returns! We talked about it a bunch.

 

[Imtjnotu]

if the switch is PS4 caliber...Switch 2 about to be PS6....

LETS FUCKING GO

 

[jubei]

There is truth in here. Switch does not feel PS4 strong at all but it's true how little importance the graphical upgrade from PS4->PS5->PS5 Pro has. It doesn't matter anymore. Every game has the capability to look good enough. Hopefully now we can move toward games looking that good and running well too, but frame rate is hard to capture for advertising purposes compared to crazy lighting and reflections.

 

[Ogbert]

I suspect the PS5 pro exists solely for GTA 6.

 

[midnightAI]

worse even, it kinda confirms it.
does Wukong look significantly better than, say TLOU2? I'd say no.

meanwhile in order to get to 60fps on a PS5 it would need to run at around 720p internally, while TLOU2 comfortably reaches 60fps at 1440p, so 4x the resolution.

in order to add the small visual flairs a game like Wukong has over a game like TLOU2, you need to reduce the render resolution by 75% to get the same performance.

that's the textbook definition of diminishing returns. every step towards more impressive graphics needs more and more hardware power for increasingly less return on additional fidelity.

there is a reason AI powered upsampling and frame generation is pushed hard by Nvidia because they absolutely know that this is the only way to actually push better graphics without destroying image quality and fluidity

this is also why they are pushing Raytracing as hard as they can, because they also knew that rasterisation will hit its limits soon (basically already has) and they need a new path forward.

This is very true, and yet Schreier is arguing we don't need a PS5 Pro which coincidentally has the biggest improvements in ray tracing and AI upscaling over the base PS5 so looks like Sony is following NVidia in that regard.

 

[nnytk]

People have been talking about diminishing returns since the PS2...

It a fallacy.

Games are much more advanced in a ton of ways and I say this as someone who plays a ton of old games on Steam.

Deus Ex Human Revolution (which I just played) for example is an amazing game, but the environments in the game are pretty much barren and empty in most places. On PS3 it was like 640p and 25fps.

I'm playing Half Life 2 right now in VR, again amazing game, but it's pretty fucking barren as well.

Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart (for example) is so god damn dense with detail, like literally 1000x more going on (than those games) and is running at a pretty high resolution at 60fps on PS5.

There is a night and day difference in the technological progress on display between those games.

Here's a quick example of Ratchet on PS2 vs Ratchet on PS5.

PS2

PS5

What are we talking about here?

I think the article and sentiment in the OP wants to highlight how a fixation on 4K, 8K and Ray tracing, doesn't solve videogames taking longer to develop. And it also doesn't do anything about the gameplay.

Your example is actually perfect. Ratchet and Clank gameplay hasn't evolved all that much compared to how the graphics evolved.

Remember Shadow of Mordor or whatever it was called, that LotR game with that advanced AI Nemesis system?

Meanwhile that new Ubisoft Star Wars game tries to look shiny and impressive, while providing us again with some of the stupidest NPC behavior ever and same old run and gun gameplay.

I'm not saying games can't be pretty. And they have become more pretty. But I agree with the sentiment in the OP that gaming should be about a lot more than shinier graphics.

 

[GymWolf]

GymWolf would still think it looked shit.

Some shits are more polished than others tho

Spoiler

 

[Physiognomonics]

His arguments are sometimes wrong and he is missing interesting points.

The PS5 has failed to beat the PS4’s growth and is lagging behind it on sales, at least in part because so many players are sticking with older, less graphically intensive games, such as Fortnite and Grand Theft Auto Online

That is factually wrong. PS5 is actually beating PS4 in US by 8%, where the price is not an insult to customers whereas is slightly lagging behind PS4 in Europe where the price is shamefully high. In Japan the PS5 is actually selling better than PS4, but here some could say it's because of scalping during the first 2 years, which is likely. So the stats show us PS5 is lagging, in Europe mainly, because of the horribly high price there.

The PS5 Pro doesn’t feel like the console of the future — it feels like the vestige of a rapidly disappearing past.

First it's going to be a niche console, that's not PS6 at all. Maybe he is making the implicit argument that Sony is wrong to chase the graphics lovers. Well Sony don't. Sony are actually chasing the public of 60fps gamers like COD, Fornite and all GAAS games (besides maybe GTAOnline which is phenomenom on its own). The public of "graphics lovers" can already do that on PS5 albeit at a reduced framerate. This was the whole point of the CNET demo and most of Cerny presentation. Showing the same graphics at a higher framerate, not better graphics. Sure there will be better RT and IQ but here they could not stay for so long behind Nvidia and even there few people expect they will beat Nvidia in those areas (which are graphics metrics and those best things are on...PC, not console).

Finally, like PS4 Pro, the PS5 Pro will be there to polish the next-gen tools for PS6 and to help developers to get used to it. It's also obviously (but not to him apparently) a console with the main purpose of preventing their customers to go to PC. It's the console that will help Sony to sell more PS6s in the future.

He misses the point on so many things the PS5 Pro is, I can only think that was just another hit piece he had to do as a mainstream "journalist".

 

[XXL]

I'm not saying games can't be pretty. And they have become more pretty. But I agree with the sentiment in the OP that gaming should be about a lot more than shinier graphics.

I disagree.

Just off the top of my head since I've been playing them recently.

Half Life has gone from Half Life 2 to Half Life Alyx. Are we going to pretend that is not a massive advancement in how games are played?

Inhabiting game worlds is a pretty big advancement. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I think the article and sentiment in the OP wants to highlight how a fixation on 4K, 8K and Ray tracing, doesn't solve videogames taking longer to develop. And it also doesn't do anything about the gameplay.

If people want to shorten development times, the equation has to be "What type of game can we make where development years 5, 6, and 7 are cost prohibitive?"

If the industry is capable of developing a game like Star Wars Outlaws or Assassins Creed in 3 years, gamers are still going to buy the titles that take 7 years to make because those final 3 or 4 years will show up in the package.

 

[RodriGames40]

It's just not true.

Demon Souls PS3

Demon Souls PS5

That looks exactly like a two gen difference to me. It's literally not even fucking close.

Also note worthy is

Demon Souls PS3 runs at like 720p, 25fps.

Demons Souls PS5 runs at like 1440p, 60fps.

Nostalgia is undefeated.

Might as well bring up Space Marine 2 just to prove an extra point. Another PS3 game vs the PS5 entry... The difference is gargantuan as well.