Jimquisition: Dragon's Frown

This game has so much excess baggage in comparison to what influence it actually has on anything. I hope at least more people will be on the lookout for future Vanillaware games.

Back on topic to DC specifically - I feel like I'm kind of the odd one out when it comes to liking Vanillaware games when I say that I'm not actually as excited about Dragon's Crown as everyone else seemed to be.

I mean fuck, I own Princess Crown and a fucking Saturn. I've even played god damned Kumatanchi, the cutest fucking DS game ever made (play it assholes), I own Muramasa...yet I've just been ambivalent about DC.

Maybe it's the weird half-tweening animation they've been doing lately. It looks odd, and one of the reasons I love Vanillaware games so much is the great animation - in practice, the way DC is animated just looks fucking odd. I don't know what it is about it, it's like it's half-Flash or something.
 
Back on topic to DC specifically - I feel like I'm kind of the odd one out when it comes to liking Vanillaware games when I say that I'm not actually as excited about Dragon's Crown as everyone else seemed to be.

I mean fuck, I own Princess Crown and a fucking Saturn. I've even played god damned Kumatanchi, the cutest fucking DS game ever made (play it assholes), I own Muramasa...yet I've just been ambivalent about DC.

Maybe it's the weird half-tweening animation they've been doing lately. It looks odd, and one of the reasons I love Vanillaware games so much is the great animation - in practice, the way DC is animated just looks fucking odd. I don't know what it is about it, it's like it's half-Flash or something.

that's actually a good explanation of what it is!
 
Honestly from all these arguments whether negative or positive, I'm really glad people have finally noticed Dragon's Crown. If you guys are in US, you should buy Odin Sphere and GrimGrimoire from PSN. Many people missed on such great games. Also if you got a PSP, grab Princess Crown as well but unfortunately that only came out in Japan.

Personally, my PS3 copy has been shipped and will get the local Vita version when it gets released here. I really can't wait anymore. On the other hand I'm really sad no Muramasa Rebirth release date for Europe so far.

Hope you all enjoy the game!
 
that's actually a good explanation of what it is!
It bugs me specifically because I work in animation, and watching Flash-animated/tweened stuff is like stabbing knives into my eyes. Well, okay, that's being dramatic, but I really hate it. I can't even enjoy that Wakfu show.

And that's an opinion! In fact, I think people would probably be more accepting of me saying this in a review than this sexual furor.
 
Great. And some women and men (like my partner and myself, who are both getting the game, and don't find large chests unattractive) find it offensive, gross, and childish.

why is this alright

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvqv04RN3J1qa5ta7o1_400.jpg

and this is "offensive", "gross", etc

http://rero.bg/files/2013/03/dragons-crown-Sorceress.png

I guess I just don't understand why women in real life with above average breasts is fine, but fictional video game characters with above average breasts is "offensive", "sexist", "misogynistic", etc. Obviously it's okay to not like the art style, that's totally understandable, but to find it offensive and misogynistic? That just seems really silly to me, but oh well.
 
I was honestly surprised when I saw Kotaku praise the game and be like "yeah it's a little sexist, but whatever". I think Polygon really did not expect to be alone in factoring that into their review.
 
My two cents. When you give a review score that is seen as differentiation as the norm, you need to clearly state your case why it is so. I have personally read the written review on Polygon, and the video review on Polygon's youtube channel. And in particular, the video review states the negatives to be that of how the women are portrayed in this game, and the main adjective used was 'gross'.

When the last big brouhaha about Dragon Crown's happened, people pointed out that the artwork in general was referencing Renaissance era artwork. And the agency the female characters had, even if they were drawn what some consider to be drawn with 'ridiculous' features. Even Danielle Riendeau, the Polygon reviewer who wrote about her issues with Dragon Crown mentioned that despite her problems, the female player characters were good characters to play as. The character Riendeau used to review was the Amazon, for instance.

But the review main issue is with the female NPCs, and for a lack of a better term, the constant 'Damsel in distress' stereotype they are in, in particular with the lewd poses they are constantly are in. I'm wonder if this was supposed to reference another Renaissance era artwork, or is it just George Kamitani just being a pervert.

If its the former, I feel the judgement Danielle Riendeau gave is harsh, if its the later, well.... yeah, Kamitani's just a pervert and should be mocked for it.

And lastly, I don't think Riendeau's has objections to the art style, but more to the art.... situation? She largely finds fault to the situations with female NPCs.
 
Jim thinks that gamers shouldn't criticize people for giving bad reviews?

I'm sure there's no bias there at all.

HQ2dQvW.png
 
Maybe it's the weird half-tweening animation they've been doing lately. It looks odd, and one of the reasons I love Vanillaware games so much is the great animation - in practice, the way DC is animated just looks fucking odd. I don't know what it is about it, it's like it's half-Flash or something.
Agreed; a lot of 2d animation in games nowadays is more akin to puppetry than anything else. Hand-drawing HD sprites is extremely expensive--recall the Skullgirls Kickstarter "controversy"--so this "Flash"--like style is predominant.
 
Well at least this thread is moderately neater than the review thread! Alright destructoid, I'm likin you more than I ever was. Deadly premonition, dynasty warriors 8, and DC all higher than 9? 10/10
 
Obvious click-bait reviews like Polygon's just make me want to buy the game more.

Think I will pickup the Vita version in addition to the PS3 version tomorrow, just to support the game.
 
The thing is Polygon is giving shit score to all PS3 exclusives recently, that's whats odd.

Arthur Gies is an unabashed xbox fanboy. He got his start at team xbox and has never really left that mindset. And that's fine, I guess, we all have our preferences... but as review editor of a minor site it's good to atleast know that about him.


On this week's rebel FM he said something along the lines of "there isn't a combat scenario in The Last of Us that isn't complete shit." So... yeah, that's where he is coming from. If that was just a one off thing - fine. I can accept that not everyone likes TLoU. But he, time and time again, shits on anything from Sony and goes nuts for microsoft. Hell, it even goes beyond the xbox. He used to talk about how great the surface was going to be...


Gears of War 3 = amazing. Uncharted, The Last of Us, God of War... all shit.

But atleast we know where he is coming from and can filter his opinion through that lens.
 
My two cents. When you give a review score that is seen as differentiation as the norm, you need to clearly state your case why it is so. I have personally read the written review on Polygon, and the video review on Polygon's youtube channel. And in particular, the video review states the negatives to be that of how the women are portrayed in this game, and the main adjective used was 'gross'.

When the last big brouhaha about Dragon Crown's happened, people pointed out that the artwork in general was referencing Renaissance era artwork. And the agency the female characters had, even if they were drawn what some consider to be drawn with 'ridiculous' features. Even Danielle Riendeau, the Polygon reviewer who wrote about her issues with Dragon Crown mentioned that despite her problems, the female player characters were good characters to play as. The character Riendeau used to review was the Amazon, for instance.

But the review main issue is with the female NPCs, and for a lack of a better term, the constant 'Damsel in distress' stereotype they are in, in particular with the lewd poses they are constantly are in. I'm wonder if this was supposed to reference another Renaissance era artwork, or is it just George Kamitani just being a pervert.

If its the former, I feel the judgement Danielle Riendeau gave is harsh, if its the later, well.... yeah, Kamitani's just a pervert and should be mocked for it.

And lastly, I don't think Riendeau's has objections to the art style, but more to the art.... situation? She largely finds fault to the situations with female NPCs.

Well stated.
 
Arthur Gies is an unabashed xbox fanboy. He got his start at team xbox and has never really left that mindset. And that's fine, I guess, we all have our preferences... but as review editor of a minor site it's good to atleast know that about him.


On this week's rebel FM he said something along the lines of "there isn't a combat scenario in The Last of Us that isn't complete shit." So... yeah, that's where he is coming from. If that was just a one off thing - fine. I can accept that not everyone likes TLoU. But he, time and time again, shits on anything from Sony and goes nuts for microsoft. Hell, it even goes beyond the xbox. He used to talk about how great the surface was going to be...


Gears of War 3 = amazing. Uncharted, The Last of Us, God of War... all shit.

But atleast we know where he is coming from and can filter his opinion through that lens.

Which sucks because he makes it super hard to listen to Rebel FM and I like Anthony :(
 
He also claimed The Last of Us wouldn't sell well because the public don't care about Naughty Dog games. Everything he says is the product of an agenda and is entirely predictable.

https://twitter.com/aegies/status/277996261142061056

The Uncharted 3 thing was great in retrospect because 8.0 was really generous.

The controversy about the 8/10 Eurogamer gave Uncharted 3 unfortunately obscured the real story that reviewers totally missed the borked aiming the game shipped with. Aiming that was so substandard Naughty Dog rushed out a patch in just one month.
 
"there isn't a combat scenario in The Last of Us that isn't complete shit."
Gears of War 3 = amazing. Uncharted, The Last of Us, God of War... all shit.
But atleast we know where he is coming from and can filter his opinion through that lens.

As long as we're on the subject of opinions, I hate all of those games or find them incredibly mediocre! However, there are things I like that other people hate, and that's okay too!

Okay, maybe I liked the first God of War somewhat. The ones after that one are pointless.
 
On this week's rebel FM he said something along the lines of "there isn't a combat scenario in The Last of Us that isn't complete shit." So... yeah, that's where he is coming from. If that was just a one off thing - fine. I can accept that not everyone likes TLoU. But he, time and time again, shits on anything from Sony and goes nuts for microsoft. Hell, it even goes beyond the xbox. He used to talk about how great the surface was going to be...
I cut him some slack for that one because he did stop to share the specifics several of the encounters that he didn't like.
 
A big problem with reviewers...

1. Are they writing as a fan of that particular game and genre, or as a critic?
2. Should a reviewer who hates RPGs be the one who reviews games like Skyrim/The Witcher/Dragon's Crown?
3. Do we even know the genres that reviewer adores, and those they chastise?

I prefer RPGs/FPS over any other genres, and dislike most Racers/Fighters. So is it fair to fans of Racers/Fighters that I would review one of their favorites, and chastise it for being the thing I never liked in the first place?

See, now that's the problem I have with reviewers's opinions. I just don't know where most of them stand on a genre I have great interest in. I would prefer each reviewer to be a fan of a particular genre, and only review the games that fit in that category. As a fan, I would then know where each reviewer stands on each particular game before giving their score.
 
Obvious click-bait reviews like Polygon's just make me want to buy the game more.

It's really not at all a click-bait review. It's pretty balanced between talking about the positives and the negatives, as I summarized above. If it's really as repetitive as the review says, I'm sure they won't be the only one to give it the terrible score of 6.5/10.
 
As long as we're on the subject of opinions, I hate all of those games or find them incredibly mediocre! However, there are things I like that other people hate, and that's okay too!

Okay, maybe I liked the first God of War somewhat. The ones after that one are pointless.

Absolutely. I'm not faulting Gies for having opinions... he is allowed to have them like everyone else. Hell, I'm not even faulting him for having a pretty severe preference... because, again, that's fairly common. It's just that if your preferences tend to fall towards the Sony side of things you're going to find Polygon's review editor to not fall in line with your own opinions. And that's cool, like the point of Sterling's vlog - dissenting opinions are good and needed but they also don't need a spotlight shone on them. So in reference to the post I quoted which said that PS3 exclusives tend to get shit on at polygon... I gave a possible scenario as to why.
 
A big problem with reviewers...

1. Are they writing as a fan of that particular game and genre, or as a critic?
2. Should a reviewer who hates RPGs be the one who reviews games like Skyrim/The Witcher/Dragon's Crown?
3. Do we even know the genres that reviewer adores, and those they chastise?

I prefer RPGs/FPS over any other genres, and dislike most Racers/Fighters. So is it fair to fans of Racers/Fighters that I would review one of their favorites, and chastise it for being the thing I never liked in the first place?

See, now that's the problem I have with reviewers's opinions. I just don't know where most of them stand on a genre I have great interest in. I would prefer each reviewer to be a fan of a particular genre, and only review the games that fit in that category. As a fan, I would then know where each reviewer stands on each particular game before giving their score.

You can find this out pretty easily by reading previous reviews they've written, listening to them on podcasts, or even reading their twitter feed or blog.

It requires more legwork on your part, but it is doable. People do it for movies and music all the time.
 
I think there is such a thing as an art style being so offputting that it would negatively affect someone's overall experience with the game. It would depend on what the personal threshold is, but given the images I've seen of the game I wouldn't be surprised DC crosses that line for them.

Plus, the bigger criticism I feel is the apparent lack of content. The review stated 9 levels with 1 branching path each (correct me if I'm wrong), and sidequests involve mostly traversing the same levels over and over again, and the new game plus has you do the same thing all over again. Seems awfully repetitive and light on content if it's true, which I think would contribute far more to the score than the "gross" (in their words) art style is.
 
It's really not at all a click-bait review. It's pretty balanced between talking about the positives and the negatives, as I summarized above. If it's really as repetitive as the review says, I'm sure they won't be the only one to give it the terrible score of 6.5/10.
I like how God Hand fans wear the 3/10 IGN review like a badge of honor rather than lamenting it all the time. They know perfectly well it's one of the best games made in decades, and they're right. Compared to them, people shitting their pants over 8/10 reviews are just laughable.
 
It bugs me specifically because I work in animation, and watching Flash-animated/tweened stuff is like stabbing knives into my eyes. Well, okay, that's being dramatic, but I really hate it. I can't even enjoy that Wakfu show.

And that's an opinion! In fact, I think people would probably be more accepting of me saying this in a review than this sexual furor.

It's really not true pixel animation, and from what I've read in an interview it is akin to flash, the engine they use..I guess its a good shortcut, but I can't help but wonder how awesome it would have been, completely animated..
 
I think there is such a thing as an art style being so offputting that it would negatively affect someone's overall experience with the game. It would depend on what the personal threshold is, but given the images I've seen of the game I wouldn't be surprised DC crosses that line for them.

Plus, the bigger criticism I feel is the apparent lack of content. The review stated 9 levels with 1 branching path each (correct me if I'm wrong), and sidequests involve mostly traversing the same levels over and over again, and the new game plus has you do the same thing all over again. Seems awfully repetitive and light on content if it's true, which I think would contribute far more to the score than the "gross" (in their words) art style is.
Do you know how long does each level take on average? Also do you have to replay them to grind to finish the game? Just curious.

I agree with you about the art style. It's not for everyone.
 
This has nothing to do with the topic of his video, but I much prefer it when Sterling doesn't wear those gloves.
 
You can find this out pretty easily by reading previous reviews they've written, listening to them on podcasts, or even reading their twitter feed or blog.

It requires more legwork on your part, but it is doable. People do it for movies and music all the time.

I feel every reviewer should let their Likes/Dislikes for every genre be known at the beginning of every review. Wishful thinking I know, but it should be an industry standard. Problem is, people lie.

I also feel it's impossible to follow every reviewer, as many come and go.
 
Another silly video from Jim Sterling.

It's completely fair and warranted for gamers to criticize a review (especially when the review is as completely silly as this one, heavily based on an element that should weigh almost zero in a review). Critics need to learn to take it as they dish it, and polygon quite obviously didn't learn that yet looking at their reactions.

Of course Jim Sterling has to defend the wrong side, as usual

Reviews should only be changed if there are factual errors. I've avoided the DC review threads so I didn't know there was this outrage going on about Polygon but from the brief snippet of the review I saw in Jim's video it looked like stuff that was a matter of opinion.
 
Rich Grisham, who writes for Gamesradar and other sites doing reviews... and also is in Operation Sport's "Press Row Podcast" said something to me that has been stuck in my head ever since because I think he so brilliantly narrowed down why we have a problem with "games journalism."

He said, paraphrasing here, that the problem is that other than a few people the vast majority of people working in "games journalism" aren't journalists in the least... they are writers.

Back in the magical 1990s I went to school for English with a focus on creative writing. I had to take a few journalism classes as part of that (2, if I remember correctly) and the differences in style and tone are stark compared to creative writing. A good journalist shouldn't be biased in the slightest. A good journalist should look at both sides of every story. A good journalist should be well sourced. A good journalist doesn't partake in tricky word play to look cute, the writing style is about substance - not style.

All of this is the complete opposite of the gaming media. What we have are a bunch of writers. When I was taught creative writing, or hell, even essay writing, it was about style, it was about taking sides and arguing points, it was about colorful language and imaginative descriptions. There aren't rules in creative writing.

Most of the journalists today are writers, they aren't journalists... and nor do they even try to be. Until that changes... games journalism will remain a joke. I think the same goes for reviewers... these people weren't trained in criticism, they are just writers and their reviews come across as such.
 
It bugs me specifically because I work in animation, and watching Flash-animated/tweened stuff is like stabbing knives into my eyes. Well, okay, that's being dramatic, but I really hate it. I can't even enjoy that Wakfu show.

And that's an opinion! In fact, I think people would probably be more accepting of me saying this in a review than this sexual furor.

Someone on this thread talks about animation, I'm in. Flash animated tweening and morphing really bugs me, just like you and I much prefer it hand draw like 60s Disney cartoons however what DC is trying to achieve is that feel from 90s. To me at least it looks like a HD upgraded version of Golden Axe way of moving forward, backward, attacking, running and jumping. It's just a different direction to what they're doing and I actually don't mind it.
 
Someone on this thread talks about animation, I'm in. Flash animated tweening and morphing really bugs me, just like you and I much prefer it hand draw like 60s Disney cartoons however what DC is trying to achieve is that feel from 90s. To me at least it looks like a HD upgraded version of Golden Axe way of moving forward, backward, attacking, running and jumping. It's just a different direction to what they're doing and I actually don't mind it.

Yeah, I get that. I think the game's way less offensive about it than some others, and I see where you're coming from. It just really sticks out with, like, that boss dragon and him moving his head around and spewing flames or other background/enemy stuff in general, less so the actual character movement which was refined enough for me to not mind as much.
 
I'm not too sure what constitutes a pervert and in his case, what's the problem with it?

Drawing women in suggesting clothing and poses with the only reason to bring sexual arousal.

If that is the case, the issue becomes you(as in George Kamitani) intentionally brought in a divisive element to fulfill his own personal fetish.

And that's fine, since this is his game, and his vision, but that also means that his decisions should stand the scrutiny of criticism, and why he let his own personal desires effect Dragon Crown to this extent.

Again, I'm not saying he actually did that, I would like to see if the art in question is referencing something else, or is just Kamitani's being Kamitani.

2nd edit: I also got the PS3 version on pre-order, so I know I will play the shit out of it.
 
For those saying that Jim thinks we shouldn't voice disagreement about reviews, here's his exact quote on the matter.

You know what? You can handle one bad review of a critically acclaimed game. You can disagree with it, for sure. You can argue why you might disagree with certain points; you can explain why you like it. You can include it in the discussion. Be reasonable, be adult, be sensible about it. But you can handle it. You should handle it because otherwise you're doing the game a disservice and crippling discussion about it.

Jim isn't advocating that we not express disagreement with reviews. If anything, he says the exact opposite in saying they can and probably should be included in the discussion. What he's saying is that we shouldn't allow dissenting opinions to cannibalize discussion about a game, turning our focus from the game itself to instead yell at this one reviewer to tell them how wrong they are.

I feel every reviewer should let their Likes/Dislikes for every genre be known at the beginning of every review. Wishful thinking I know, but it should be an industry standard. Problem is, people lie.

I also feel it's impossible to follow every reviewer, as many come and go.
Maybe not every reviewer, but it is certainly possible to find a few you like, whose opinions and taste line up with yours, and follow them. Like I said, it's people do it for movies and music everyday.
 
Drawing women in suggesting clothing and poses with the only reason to bring sexual arousal.

If that is the case, the issue becomes you(as in George Kamitani) intentionally brought in a divisive element to fulfill his own personal fetish.

And that's fine, since this is his game, and his vision, but that also means that he should be criticized for it.

Again, I'm not saying he actually did that, I would like to see if the art in question is referencing something else, or is just Kamitani's being Kamitani.

Look at this to see some of the references of classic and modern art:

http://www.realsg.com/2013/08/theres-more-to-dragonscrown-than-boobs.html
 
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