LordOfChaos
Member
DX12 first launched in 2015, of course there have been additions since then, but it's still stunning that going on 10 years later it's still in this state
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John Lindemann and Alex Battaglia: Windows/DX12 in its current state is a hindrance to PC gaming
- Thread starter JohnnyFootball
- Start date
GHG
Gold Member
Oh no doubt. Unfortunately none of my gaming PC's are running Linux since they are all nvidia hardware.
But I'm glad to see it now being verified by outlets with the appropriate hardware to be able to prove it.
Killjoy-NL
Member
Maybe they just want people playing on PS5?
64bitmodels
Reverse groomer.
The developer incompetence must be pretty wide spread then since this is a problem with 70% of the AAA landscape.
If changing an API can curb that incompetence due to better tech why not take it? What's the alternative? Scream and plead on deaf ears to "do better"? They aren't gonna fucking hear us, they already have to rush the project to get out for the release date
Sethbacca
Member
Modern windows tries to be too much to too many. All the integrated bullshit, telemetry, stores, the need for it to work on everything from handhelds to tablets to desktops. They need to go back to the drawing board and make it an OS first rather than a trojan horse to sell you a bunch of other shit.
SonGoku
Member
I wonder if now that theres so much CPU performance left on the table with the implosion of multi core designs of which Games barely use more than 6 to 8 cores that going back to these type of high level APIs could make sense by leveraging these unused cores to mitigate any overhead compared to DX12.
Could Intel E cores for example take care of API overhead on the driver level without much input from game devs?
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poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Yeah but now Windows users are saying it. And Steam deck is doing it.
64bitmodels
Reverse groomer.
The average windows user isn't on this board
LordOfChaos
Member
I wonder if 10th gen consoles having e-cores would help get devs on board with this. They're much more multicore performance area dense and power efficient so they're a cheap way to boost multicore performance, when used well. The issues are with scheduling and making sure the appropriate tasks are on each, but with consoles you know what you get and program a game bespoke to that so that shouldn't be an issue and should help with PC E-core use.
Certainly you could at least move the console OS core reservation to the E-cores and allow games to use the P-cores full time, which helps disproportionately by removing cache contention etc
kevboard
Member
the Steam deck has probably less units sold than PSVR2
Linux, as a whole, is still absolutely trash to use as a daily driver OS on an actual desktop PC.
JimboJones
Member
You been PC gaming for over 100 years?
tommib
Gold Member
Years!
mayham2199
Member
Windows users were saying it back then to. Me and all my friends were windows users and saying how Linux is going to take over. My friend ended up making 6 figures because he became a linux engineer. Listen maybe this will finally be the time it happens history has shown me it's not.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
Sure all the shit 20~30fps, crap IQ, etc on consoles didn't drive you insane but Windows and DX did.
nkarafo
Member
Ι'm just stating the source of the issue. I don't mind any kind of solution as long as i'm playing my games smoothly. They might as well use AI to fully develop their games while they are siting there drinking mimosas all day for all i care.
bender
What time is it?
nkarafo
Member
My standards are higher when i play on a $1500 system with a GPU that alone costs as much as a console.
Syphon Filter
Member
Use AMD, it's fine.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
Don't play games in alpha/beta state.
ozz ex machina
Member
As a value proposition, performance boost vs cost, if you are remotely sensitive to quality/fps, PC is much better value.
nkarafo
Member
I don't. None of the games i play state they are in alpha/beta state.
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rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
Of course they don't officially, but CP2077, for example, was clearly in alpha state. Every game without pre shader compilation is in beta at best.
nkarafo
Member
Then maybe they shouldn't sell games that are still in alpha/beta state?
Why avoid blaming the developers? Why must it be always the consumer's fault?
Also, CP2077 was at least fixed. It runs smoother than many games with inherent stutter issues that were never fixed and probably never will.
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rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
For sure. Still they are doing this and patching after.
As I agreed with you before, it's 100% developers fault, not APIs.
Afaik, almost every game without pre compilation was fixed, at least.
nkarafo
Member
SCORN isn't fixed. Last patch claimed it fixed the stuttering issues but for some reason i'm still getting them. I still haven't fully played the game because of that. I don't think it will get any other patch, which means it's broken forever or until there's a mod/fan made patch for it.
This is what happened to GTA4. A broken game fixed only by the community. But not every game gets that treatment.
Crayon
Member
I've wondered for awhile if I'm having a better time on linux. I don't have windows to try it against, but I remember in the early days of proton, I would encounter shader stutter like everyone describes and it was brutal. Now I can do a fresh install of that, tekken, or quake champions (games where the pattern was super obvious) and they are fine. Almost al of my games do a pre-comp that appears to be handled by steam. That can get annoying with frequently updated games but I haven't come across that shader stutter in a long time.
Are there any particularly bad games I can try out and report back? Sounds like scorn might be one?
Are there any particularly bad games I can try out and report back? Sounds like scorn might be one?
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
I remember my bead rate dropping to 2 bps with a windows update.
The draft kept blowing the beads.
Thebonehead
Gold Member
I think we know what sort of beads you really meant.
I remember my bead rate dropping to 2 bps with a windows update.
The draft kept blowing the beads.
justiceiro
Marlboro: Other M
Funny, we are allowed to blame directx 12 for bad performance in games but not gaming engines. Funny how that works.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
Scorn, Gothan Knights.
Try Elden Ring too. People say that the game still doesn't do pre comp, yet I don’t notice any stutter anymore after some past patch even after updating video driver.
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Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
To Microsoft! The cause of . . . and solution to, of all of PC gaming's problems!
Fess
Member
Microsoft always promise a lot but rarely deliver. It’s extremely frustrating.
Once Steam take over completely things will get better. It’s getting close.
KuraiShidosha
Member
Basically it allows things to interfere with frame presentation. For instance, when you adjust volume and the little Windows menu pops up over the game, this can cause problems like your monitor stuttering or even disengaging the mouse itself. In fact, any overlay can appear over the game like the Xbox game bar (this is the real reason they want to eliminate exclusive fullscreen, so they can have their ecosystem always present without needing to inject code into games to get it working in exclusive fullscreen.) If you are playing a shooter for instance, and this overlay appears over the game and you move your mouse in such a way that the mouse cursor typically invisible while gaming, slides over the pop-up, suddenly the cursor will appear and if you should click it, well now you're getting alt tabbed. This is made even worse by the fact that disabling fullscreen optimizations doesn't even fix this. The pop-up could be hidden behind the game but it'll still treat it like it's over it. I made an example video of this in action in Microsoft's own first party game:
MujkicHaris
Member
Developers: DirectX 11 is too closed. We need MORE control.
Microsoft Windows/DirectX 12: Okay. I will give you control but you have to read documentation and take some time to optimize and test. Your code now also has to take the role of GPU driver.
Developers: Windows/DX12 in its current state is a hindrance to PC gaming
Nah, this is all developers' fault. They asked for power to replace GPU driver and this is the result.
"With great power comes great responsibility"
Microsoft Windows/DirectX 12: Okay. I will give you control but you have to read documentation and take some time to optimize and test. Your code now also has to take the role of GPU driver.
Developers: Windows/DX12 in its current state is a hindrance to PC gaming
Nah, this is all developers' fault. They asked for power to replace GPU driver and this is the result.
"With great power comes great responsibility"
onnextflix5
Member
nothing will change, its ms we are talking about, steam really need start mandating native Linux ports, maybe then ms will give a shit.
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Crayon
Member
A few days after elden came out, there was a patch that smoothed it out on linux. However, I believe that was applied to proton (somewhere in there) and not the game itself.
Okay Scorn is only 10 bucks so I just picked it up and I'll try it out hopefully tonight and report back. I've been wondering about this for a long time now.
deeptech
Member
Well, he rightfully should, they might actually see and hear what he says and fix their shit. It's very important imo even if it's the same old story over and over, somehow maybe it gets enough attention and is looked into by relevant people.
IDK if it's devs, UE, dx12, windows or all of them, but no self-respecting, enthusiastic and/or passionate person can let this crap be.
Crayon
Member
Native ports maybe one day. But it will be a long ways off till it's time to even start down that road. Right now, we successfully have developers doing qa to clear out any dumb little details that would break the game on steam deck. That's a little thing but a big step in it's own way. Eve and wow are classic examples of someone out there putting in a little extra time to make sure the games ran as well as they could on wine. Eve even cancelled the linux branch because wine was just working out better for everyone, on balance.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
From what I understand a lot of games with native ports you are still better off running through translation of the windows version.
Crayon
Member
The most common issue is that the linux build starts falling behind on updates. Often never catching up and eventually abandoned.
JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
There is literally nothing Microsoft does that another company doesn’t do better.
OverHeat
« generous god »
Controller design!
Killer8
Gold Member
Leaving it up to the developers has been a disaster because developers more often than not are just completely incompetent.
I booted up Black Myth for the first time last night and it's frankly shocking how much shader compilation stutter it has, even with one of the longest shader pre-compilation steps in recent memory.
And this is one of the biggest PC releases of the year which was even given away free with Nvidia cards (i'm thankful I never paid money for that dogshit).
They're abandoning it alright - just in the direction of consoles to escape the headache.
I booted up Black Myth for the first time last night and it's frankly shocking how much shader compilation stutter it has, even with one of the longest shader pre-compilation steps in recent memory.
And this is one of the biggest PC releases of the year which was even given away free with Nvidia cards (i'm thankful I never paid money for that dogshit).
They're abandoning it alright - just in the direction of consoles to escape the headache.
nkarafo
Member
I'm interested to know your experience with Scorn. I complained about it after i got the latest version from GOG (with the latest patch included) but some other people report that the stutters are fixed for them.
I'm not sure what kind of stutters i'm getting though. Not sure if they are cache or traversal or some kind of bad asset streaming. But they are very noticeable and annoying. Game runs at 60fps and i see those sudden hitches every 10 or 20 seconds as i'm exploring. And i'm running the game from an SSD.
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Crayon
Member
With the shader stutters, you can replay an area immediately after the first time and they will be all cleared up. At least the most obvious cases. That's the way to tell.
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pasterpl
Member
Probably we will get new DirectX 13 next year with windows 12, as handheld PCs are taking off (still niche market) they might even create a special mode for these, but it might be still to small for them to bother (also depends if MS will release their own handheld). Most casual gamers and PC users will not care about Proton, Bazzite or Linux at all, that’s why windows market share is very high compared to other OS’es. I myself use mix of machines with MacOS & Windows daily. Got Kali Linux installed on my Mac via Parallers just for experimentation, ages ago played with Ubuntu but it was lacking lots of drivers and felt unfinished. Got Windows on my Mac as well as not all things that I need work on Mac. But my gaming PC is pure windows, where I removed any unwanted software etc. Never had any issues with it. I actually never had any issues with any OS, but the biggest problem for me with MacOs and Linux is lack of support/compatibility for many games (I still have my steam deck, but it is collecting dust since I have ROG Ally X (and guess what, it plays all of games from all of the storefronts without any problem so instead making game work on Steam I can spend that time playing on Windows). Windows is still the best platform for me for work and gaming (outside Xbox of course), and stats are showing it.
nkarafo
Member
Then the stutters i'm seeing are not shader cache ones because i'm sure i have traversed these same areas before and i'm still getting them. They don't feel like that anyway, they are more sudden single frame stutters. Tried every sync option i could think of, even on a VRR screen and i can't get rid of them.
Crayon
Member
Still not completely out of the question, but shader stutter would not be my first guess by how you are describing it. The way they "clear up" is pretty dramatic. The last game I remember having it with was quake champions. When you saw an arena for the first time, there were fat hitches around every corner. As you get around and make a few loops through the place, the stutters get less and less until they stop. When you enter that level again, they are still all gone. So in that case, it's unmistakable.
It's awful for single player games because the first time you see something is often the last until you replay the game. :/