Support NeoGAF

[Deleted member 47027]

Cena is beyond Punk and always was. No matter what Punk was given, he would never reach those heights. WWE gave him everything. You just can't stop Cena. He's got broader appeal, people love him more.

 

[Ithil]

Cena's legacy is beyond titles, Punk was given everything. All the tools. Just couldn't do it. No big deal. He's gone now, which says a lot.

I'm not understanding the logic. Which tool was he given? The "lose to all the part timers that Cena gets to beat" one? Or the "have Cena main event 10 out of 12 PPVs in the calender year you were WWE champion" one?

I find the idea that Punk was ever given the same push as Cena really absurd. He was always pushed as the number two guy, and that's what he stayed.

 

[Aiii]

Cena is beyond Punk and always was. No matter what Punk was given, he would never reach those heights. WWE gave him everything. You just can't stop Cena. He's got broader appeal, people love him more.

You almost had me going there. Nice one Sunny.

 

[Ithil]

Cena is beyond Punk and always was. No matter what Punk was given, he would never reach those heights. WWE gave him everything. You just can't stop Cena. He's got broader appeal, people love him more.

Now I get it.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

I'm not understanding the logic. Which tool was he given? The "lose to all the part timers that Cena gets to beat" one? Or the "have Cena main event 10 out of 12 PPVs in the calender year you were WWE champion" one?

I find the idea that Punk was ever given the same push as Cena really absurd. He was always pushed as the number two guy, and that's what he stayed.

He was given the championship, a record they would set with him, and Paul Heyman. You can only go so high. Cena's as high as he is because he's Cena - it's not just something you can switch out and carry on with. Cena's special. Punk didn't have IT.

 

[Vylash]

Cena's legacy is beyond titles, Punk was given everything. All the tools. Just couldn't do it. No big deal. He's gone now, which says a lot.

Serious question here, but what exactly is everything? He was given a few minutes on the mic, 2 dirty victories over Cena, and then a forgettable title reign that was ended by the fucking Rock of all people, lost to Taker and came back looking sloppy as hell, that's not the booking of a top star

 

[kiguel182]

Cena is beyond Punk and always was. No matter what Punk was given, he would never reach those heights. WWE gave him everything. You just can't stop Cena. He's got broader appeal, people love him more.

No they don't.

But obviously if you keep putting Cena on that spot then nobody can take it. You can't surpass Cena with just one feud and then being given nothing.

I'm not sure if you are trolling right now.

 

[Browny]

I can imagine the situation unfolding completely differently Punk had actually been last person on when he was champ.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Y'all think it's a joke, but it's really clear. Cena's appeal is what helps push him the extra mile, that and his insane work ethic. Anyone could be given EVERYTHING and not meet the standard he's set and has set for a long, long time.

 

[BronsonLee]

Heh, awesome.

Magic Choke Slam worthy

I fucking hate Beyond sometimes

 

[DMczaf]

The belt was made to look like a joke when Punk almost never main evented as the longest reigning WWE champ in modern history. Punk was never going to get the Cena push, and that year proved it.

 

[McNei1y]

Punk, Kane, and Dbry had that AJ love square going for them. That's pretty high up there.

 

[Aiii]

Y'all think it's a joke, but it's really clear. Cena's appeal is what helps push him the extra mile, that and his insane work ethic. Anyone could be given EVERYTHING and not meet the standard he's set and has set for a long, long time.

Listen, Sunny Mac, I understand what you're saying, but you are wrong. Cena moves more merch because he appeals to a narrower public, namely kids that don't feel shame about liking WWE.

Punk however definitely had a broader appeal, since not only kids, but also older folks liked him.

 

[Cagey]

So not being above Cena is midcard status now? JFC.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Serious question here, but what exactly is everything? He was given a few minutes on the mic, 2 dirty victories over Cena, and then a forgettable title reign that was ended by the fucking Rock of all people, lost to Taker and came back looking sloppy as hell, that's not the booking of a top star

Even one of these, "he dropped it to the Rock" - right there. That's a huge thing. A huge opportunity to make money. It did ok. People instead WANTED to see Rock vs Cena. Look, I know this is the opposite of what the internet likes to hear, but goddamn, Punk was given more than anyone else and it just isn't enough. A match with Taker. Dropping the belt to the Rock. Heyman. A hell of a championship streak.

What else could they give him to make him in the same league as what Cena does? More merch? A different placement for his not-bad matches? Nothing could overcome (har) Cena's LEGIT legacy. It's so big that nobody's going to surpass it - it just has to go away in total and everyones' expectations will come back to earth on what's successful.

Long story short, Punk's reign was great. He did a bunch of great things. But when you insist on comparing him to Cena, he will always, ALWAYS fall short.

Listen, Sunny Mac, I understand what you're saying, but you are wrong. Cena moves more merch because he appeals to a narrower public, namely kids that don't feel shame about liking WWE.

Punk however definitely had a broader appeal, since not only kids, but also older folks liked him.

Totally feel you're mixed up with the reality of it. Cena's as non-offensive and perfect an icon (yes, icon..sigh) that WWE can have represent their brand. Punk's got a narrower audience, they all just won't shut up about it.

 

[jmdajr]

Cena is married to wrestling. He won't quit. I mean he just won't. The man is a robot.

You can say he sucks in the ring, won't put people over, or that he doesn't even care about the make a wish kids. It's all a show. The work rate is still insane. It can't be denied.

Who is gonna put in the work to out Cena, Cena?

 

[Striker]

Punk was Bret. There's nothing wrong with that at all. And he got a huge run out of it, was the #2 guy in the company for a good few years, and got two PPV paydays with Rock which were probably pretty damn substantial too

Bret was the go to guy for several years, though.

The CM Punk-Daniel Bryan feud was fine for in-ring stuff, but good lord that storyline was atrocious. The Johnny Ace-Cena one was no better, so it's an ugly wash. Neither main evented SummerSlam that year, Triple H did.

 

[Ithil]

Even one of these, "he dropped it to the Rock" - right there. That's a huge thing. A huge opportunity to make money. It did ok. People instead WANTED to see Rock vs Cena. Look, I know this is the opposite of what the internet likes to hear, but goddamn, Punk was given more than anyone else and it just isn't enough. A match with Taker. Dropping the belt to the Rock. Heyman. A hell of a championship streak.

What else could they give him to make him in the same league as what Cena does? More merch? A different placement for his not-bad matches? Nothing could overcome (har) Cena's LEGIT legacy. It's so big that nobody's going to surpass it - it just has to go away in total and everyones' expectations will come back to earth on what's successful.

Long story short, Punk's reign was great. He did a bunch of great things. But when you insist on comparing him to Cena, he will always, ALWAYS fall short.



Totally feel you're mixed up with the reality of it. Cena's as non-offensive and perfect an icon (yes, icon..sigh) that WWE can have represent their brand. Punk's got a narrower audience, they all just won't shut up about it.

Actually push him at Cena's level?

 

[Aiii]

Totally feel you're mixed up with the reality of it. Cena's as non-offensive and perfect an icon (yes, icon..sigh) that WWE can have represent their brand. Punk's got a narrower audience, they all just won't shut up about it.

Then how do you explain Punk coming out to cheers when he's a face exclusively and John Cena getting boo'ed no matter which crowd he's facing.

Guy gets boos even in his hometown. If his appeal is so broad, you'd say the boos would hardly be heard or drowned out by cheering exclusively.

 

[DMczaf]

Nothing Cena does ever escapes the bubble that is WWE. It's kinda scary how much WWE depends on him, but he will never grow the business and he never did. He's their glass ceiling.

 

[Sephzilla]

Even one of these, "he dropped it to the Rock" - right there. That's a huge thing. A huge opportunity to make money. It did ok. People instead WANTED to see Rock vs Cena. Look, I know this is the opposite of what the internet likes to hear, but goddamn, Punk was given more than anyone else and it just isn't enough. A match with Taker. Dropping the belt to the Rock. Heyman. A hell of a championship streak.

What else could they give him to make him in the same league as what Cena does? More merch? A different placement for his not-bad matches? Nothing could overcome (har) Cena's LEGIT legacy. It's so big that nobody's going to surpass it - it just has to go away in total and everyones' expectations will come back to earth on what's successful.

Long story short, Punk's reign was great. He did a bunch of great things. But when you insist on comparing him to Cena, he will always, ALWAYS fall short.



Totally feel you're mixed up with the reality of it. Cena's as non-offensive and perfect an icon (yes, icon..sigh) that WWE can have represent their brand. Punk's got a narrower audience, they all just won't shut up about it.

You have to be trolling here.

Punk's title reign was overshadowed during a ton of his reign. Losing to Rock damaged the credibility of his title reign. If you remove the name "Rock" from it and just say that Punk lost his title to a guy who wrestled twice in the last 8 years, everyone would agree that it would be a horrible move.

Also, who in the blue hell actually wanted to see Rock/Cena again?

 

[jmdajr]

Actually push him at Cena's level?

Punk doesn't want to put in the work outside the ring. Just because of that, he was never going to be the face.

Granted maybe he deserved a Wrestlemania main event as HEEL. Oh well...ain't gonna happen now,.

 

[Macho Madness]

So Meltzer believes Swagger/Rusev is dead because of the bad press, and that's why they retconned the Battleground finish.

 

[Ithil]

For all this talk about Cena's "broad appeal", he has been on top during a down period in wrestling popularity that continued a downturn throughout his reign.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Actually push him at Cena's level?

I don't think that response is any good, because while Punk was champion, Cena was pushed at this level:

Cena takes on Johnhny Ace
Cena beats Big Show in a cage
Cena won MITB (something Punk has also done)
Cena beat Lesnar clean (hey, something Punk didn't do)
Cena pinned by Punk when Shield debuted
Cena beaten by Dolph Ziggler due to an AJ turn

It's not been good for Cena. With the exception of Cena beating Lesnar, I fail to see where Punk would have been better off with Cena's level of push.

 

[Sephzilla]

For all this talk about Cena's "broad appeal", he has been on top during a down period in wrestling popularity that continued a downturn throughout his reign.

And none of the temporary spikes in recent wrestling popularity had anything to do with him.

 

[slightconfuse]

Raw wa good and Cena wasn't there . Not a coincidence

 

[BronsonLee]

So Meltzer believes Swagger/Rusev is dead because of the bad press, and that's why they retconned the Battleground finish.

What do you mean retconned? The finish happened, it's not like got nuked out of existence like Steph getting Rock Bottomed at Mania 2000 (Thanks WWE 14!)

 

[avengers23]

Nope

Because they can get built up again with

JOBBER MATCHES! It's the perfect fix.

Jobber squashes, refocusing on tag teams, managers for wrestlers who can't carry themselves on the mic.

There's a part of my brain that groups those three legitimate suggestions with the old "push the cruiserweights and turn Eugene heel" stuff from the 2000s though.

The only way to see new content is on the network, right?

You can watch NXT on Hulu as well.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

You have to be trolling here.

Punk's title reign was overshadowed during a ton of his reign. Losing to Rock damaged the credibility of his title reign. If you remove the name "Rock" from it and just say that Punk lost his title to a guy who wrestled twice in the last 8 years, everyone would agree that it would be a horrible move.

Also, who in the blue hell actually wanted to see Rock/Cena again?

Damaged the credibility? Rock came back and gave WWE a little more relevance again. It's HUGE to lose the title to a legitimate legend like Rock. Nobody should have been upset about that, seriously. Nobody. "Hey, have this championship reign and at the end, the only person that can stop you is the fucking Rock"

I mean there's plenty to complain about, but nobody - NOBODY should be upset even one little bit that the Rock took it from him.

 

[Sephzilla]

Damaged the credibility? Rock came back and gave WWE a little more relevance again. It's HUGE to lose the title to a legitimate legend like Rock. Nobody should have been upset about that, seriously. Nobody. "Hey, have this championship reign and at the end, the only person that can stop you is the fucking Rock"

I mean there's plenty to complain about, but nobody - NOBODY should be upset even one little bit that the Rock took it from him.

I'm just going to say this again. CM Punk lost a year+ long title reign to a guy who wrestled twice in the last 8 years.

 

[McNei1y]

I completely forgot about Johnny Ace and Cena. Man that was bad.

 

[Anth0ny]

punk's pipebomb promo is more memorable and got more mainstream coverage than cena's entire career



I started watching again because of that promo and MITB 2011.

 

[Cagey]

You have to be trolling here.

Punk's title reign was overshadowed during a ton of his reign. Losing to Rock damaged the credibility of his title reign. If you remove the name "Rock" from it and just say that Punk lost his title to a guy who wrestled twice in the last 8 years, everyone would agree that it would be a horrible move.

Also, who in the blue hell actually wanted to see Rock/Cena again?

Overshadowed a ton? Why, because The Rock was in the picture and The Rock is the biggest name associated with professional wrestling besides Hulk Hogan? He didn't lose to just anyone who wrestled twice in the past 8 years. It was The Rock. It wasn't Brooklyn Brawler. It was The Rock.

Further, he had feuds, he had matches, he had the belt, he had Heyman. Just because you and others here wanted him to be The #1 Draw Above Cena and Rock and Everyone doesn't mean he wasn't in a super-lofty position on the top tier of the company.

Too many posters are obsessed with a person's spot in the pecking order and all this psuedo-insider nonsense.

Lastly, large amounts of people wanted to see Rock/Cena again. Segments of WrassleGAF =/= All Wrasslin Fans.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

I'm just going to say this again. CM Punk lost a year+ long title reign to a guy who wrestled twice in the last 8 years.

That shouldn't even be an issue. Rock is another tier, a level Punk won't be unless there's a miracle coming along. Rock is, in the public's eye, on the same level or beyond that Cena is. That's huge. Nobody should be upset doing the job to the Rock.

 

[Macho Madness]

What do you mean retconned? The finish happened, it's not like got nuked out of existence like Steph getting Rock Bottomed at Mania 2000 (Thanks WWE 14!)

Lawler: "Swagger was forced to submit to the accolade"

 

[Sibersk Esto]

I'm a little confused as to what is so new about Miz's new gimmick. He wears sunglasses now? Okay he's still giving the same promos he always gave whenever he talked about MTV or showed up on a USA show. It's still the "goober who thinks he's more famous than he is" shtick

 

[BronsonLee]

Apparently Slater vs Flo Rida has been a thing for a while?
Am I crazy, or didn't Slater talk shit to him at Mania and get shoved too

Lawler: "Swagger was forced to submit to the accolade"

I remember them showing the damn finish and him getting knocked out. I think Lawler is just stupid

 

[Deleted member 47027]

punk's pipebomb promo is more memorable and got more mainstream coverage than cena's entire career

I wish I felt that way. The original Marine release did more for Cena than a hundred Punk pipebomb promos. And I know a lot of you think that kind of fan, the one who sees The Marine and says "Well goddamn that John Cena is a good role model, support our troops USA USA" is a niche, but it's seriously the majority here. And also apparently in a bunch of arabic countries due to reading WWE comments.

 

[Sephzilla]

That shouldn't even be an issue. Rock is another tier, a level Punk won't be unless there's a miracle coming along. Rock is, in the public's eye, on the same level or beyond that Cena is. That's huge. Nobody should be upset doing the job to the Rock.

You should edit this and remove the "same level" stuff.

Cena never was, is, or ever will be on the same level as Rock, Austin, or Hogan.

 

[MrPressStart]

I feel that the WWE is a bit lost when it comes to its identity.

It is easy to say that they want to keep it PG for the kids because the kids by the figures and shirts... but those kids grow up.

So its like they have this juggling act where they have to keep the kids happy and the adults happy.

I say fuck that! They need to understand that wrestling is more for adults. They blew up during the attitude era because they pushed bounderies. Maybe some kids will be unable to watch because of what is shown... but the viewership will not drop that much.. and if needed tweek the other program to be more kid friendly...

Bottom line is that the WWE needs to have a more adult approach. That is why I like CM Punk. He gave it that edge! He was never Cena because the WWE never gave him the Cena push. They had Punk job to Paul Heyman??? and Brock??? and he lost to the Undertaker???? Also.. lets not forget the Cena was not always clean cut. He got the majority of his followers during the whole chain and lock necklace thuganomic phase.

 

[kiguel182]

I don't think that response is any good, because while Punk was champion, Cena was pushed at this level:

Cena takes on Johnhny Ace
Cena beats Big Show in a cage
Cena won MITB (something Punk has also done)
Cena beat Lesnar clean (hey, something Punk didn't do)
Cena pinned by Punk when Shield debuted
Cena beaten by Dolph Ziggler due to an AJ turn

It's not been good for Cena. With the exception of Cena beating Lesnar, I fail to see where Punk would have been better off with Cena's level of push.

Are you ignoring those all being main event stories and Cena main eventing Mania?

Also, comprare Punk with Bryan. Bryan got a chance to be the top feud at Mania. Punk never got that so ye didn't get everything.

Of course Bryan pretty much forced that because of crowd support but it shows that is possible to pit Cena aside and still get great results. That whole thing about Cena's legacy and appeal is bullshit. It's possible to have Cena play second field while still making money and having a good product. Wwe simply didn't want to do that for Punk.

Punk was mis managed since winnint at MITB, they didn't make the most out of him and it wasn't is fault. It's very easy to see it.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

I feel that the WWE is a bit lost when it comes to its identity.

It is easy to say that they want to keep it PG for the kids because the kids by the figures and shirts... but those kids grow up.

So its like they have this juggling act where they have to keep the kids happy and the adults happy.

I say fuck that! They need to understand that wrestling is more for adults. They blew up during the attitude era because they pushed bounderies. Maybe some kids will be unable to watch because of what is shown... but the viewership will not drop that much.. and if needed tweek the other program to be more kid friendly...

Bottom line is that the WWE needs to have a more adult approach. That is why I like CM Punk. He gave it that edge! He was never Cena because the WWE never gave him the Cena push. They had Punk job to Paul Heyman??? and Brock??? and he lost to the Undertaker???? Also.. lets not forget the Cena was not always clean cut. He got the majority of his followers during the whole chain and lock necklace thuganomic phase.

As much as I'd love to see the gloves taken off, you can do PG and not be insulting to grown-ass people. They did it before, they can do it again.

 

[Ithil]

I don't think that response is any good, because while Punk was champion, Cena was pushed at this level:

Cena takes on Johnhny Ace
Beat the authority figure who had screwed with Punk previously, main events PPV
Cena beats Big Show in a cage
Main events PPV
Cena won MITB (something Punk has also done)
Main events PPV, for no reason
Cena beat Lesnar clean (hey, something Punk didn't do)
Cena pinned by Punk when Shield debuted
As a result of Ryback's finisher
Cena beaten by Dolph Ziggler due to an AJ turn
Proceeded to beat Ziggler multiple times on TV in increasingly damning ways

It's not been good for Cena. With the exception of Cena beating Lesnar, I fail to see where Punk would have been better off with Cena's level of push.

Meanwhile, Punk midcards the PPVs with the title. Clearly he was pushed at the same level.

 

[Aiii]

Overshadowed a ton? Why, because The Rock was in the picture and The Rock is the biggest name associated with professional wrestling besides Hulk Hogan?

Further, he had feuds, he had matches, he had the belt, he had Heyman. Just because you and others here wanted him to be The #1 Draw Above Cena and Rock and Everyone doesn't mean he wasn't in a super-lofty position on the top tier of the company.

Too many posters are obsessed with a person's spot in the pecking order and all this psuedo-insider nonsense.

Lastly, large amounts of people wanted to see Rock/Cena again. Segments of WrassleGAF =/= All Wrasslin Fans.

According to new data from WWE, as of March 12, 2013, this year's Royal Rumble garnered 498,000 buys, up 55,000 from last year's 443,000 buys the previous year. This is the highest buyrate the Royal Rumble has scored since 2008, where the event was bought by roughly 533,000 people worldwide.[6]

WrestleMania XXIX garnered 1,048,000 PPV buys, 205,000 fewer than the previous year's event.[17] The event set a new record for the highest grossing live event in WWE history, grossing $72 million.[18]

Since they never did anything at Mania with the Rock but Cena vs. Rock twice, there is absolutely no proof that it was Cena vs. Rock that was drawing, or just the fact that Rock was there having a match.

Fact of the matter is that Punk vs. Rock at Mania could have been just as big, or even bigger than Cena vs. Rock was, as evidenced by the increased interest in the Royal Rumble and the fact that Cena vs. Rock for the title drew less than the first match. There is absolutely no proof for any claim that people wanted to see Rock vs. Cena II more than any other Rock match.

---
Edit, to further this point:

The event garnered 213,000 pay-per-view buys, up from 178,000 buys the previous year's event received. This year's event was headlined by The Rock defending the WWE Championship against CM Punk.[4]

 

[Hasney]

I feel that the WWE is a bit lost when it comes to its identity.

It is easy to say that they want to keep it PG for the kids because the kids by the figures and shirts... but those kids grow up.

So its like they have this juggling act where they have to keep the kids happy and the adults happy.

I say fuck that! They need to understand that wrestling is more for adults. They blew up during the attitude era because they pushed bounderies. Maybe some kids will be unable to watch because of what is shown... but the viewership will not drop that much.. and if needed tweek the other program to be more kid friendly...

Bottom line is that the WWE needs to have a more adult approach. That is why I like CM Punk. He gave it that edge! He was never Cena because the WWE never gave him the Cena push. They had Punk job to Paul Heyman??? and Brock??? and he lost to the Undertaker???? Also.. lets not forget the Cena was not always clean cut. He got the majority of his followers during the whole chain and lock necklace thuganomic phase.

Kind of (We're PG, but you're a BITCH), but you can have an entertaining PG show. Bad writing is bad writing and an age rating isn't going to change that.

 

[Anth0ny]

That shouldn't even be an issue. Rock is another tier, a level Punk won't be unless there's a miracle coming along. Rock is, in the public's eye, on the same level or beyond that Cena is. That's huge. Nobody should be upset doing the job to the Rock.

Rock is far beyond Cena tier.

I agree there's no shame in Punk dropping the title to Rock. The program could have been better, and the fact that he was just set up for Twice in a Lifetime was shitty, but the act of losing the belt to a legend in the business is okay with me.

I'm way more pissed with how they dropped the ball on his momentum after MITB 2011. He could have been the new face of the company if they pushed him properly. Instead... Kevin fucking Nash. And he dropped the belt to Del Rio. AND HHH beat him. Fuck me.

 

[avengers23]

Even one of these, "he dropped it to the Rock" - right there. That's a huge thing. A huge opportunity to make money. It did ok. People instead WANTED to see Rock vs Cena. Look, I know this is the opposite of what the internet likes to hear, but goddamn, Punk was given more than anyone else and it just isn't enough. A match with Taker. Dropping the belt to the Rock. Heyman. A hell of a championship streak.

That alone reminded me of the bitching that took place when Angle dropped the title to The Rock right before WrestleMania XVII. Angle is Punk in this analogy; Cena's Austin, and The Rock is The Rock. Angle might have had an even better match than The Rock against Austin, and that title change likely set the ceiling for how big Angle would ever get. But he was still a solid upper card wrestler/occasional main eventer, and he had to drop the belt because Austin vs. The Rock at WrestleMania was the money match, just like Cena vs. The Rock.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Are you ignoring those all being main event stories and Cena main eventing Mania?

Also, comprare Punk with Bryan. Bryan got a chance to be the top feud at Mania. Punk never got that so ye didn't get everything.

Of course Bryan pretty much forced that because of crowd support but it shows that is possible to pit Cena aside and still get great results. That whole thing about Cena's legacy and appeal is bullshit. It's possible to have Cena play second field while still making money and having a good product. Wwe simply didn't want to do that for Punk.

Punk was mis managed since winnint at MITB, they didn't make the most out of him and it wasn't is fault. It's very easy to see it.

WWE shit the bed after MITB I agree. They completely fell on their face with Kevin Nash and such. Still, that doesn't factor in to the long-ass reign he had. Also Cena had a pretty lower-end feud with Wyatt at Mania, but Mania's effects still remain to be seen. WWE's been a bit of a clusterfuck since.

 

[Bowser]

lol at Cena has broader appeal.

When's the last time Cena made it outside of the WWE machine?

Will you ever seen Cena featured like this:

Hell fucking no.