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[KissVibes]

So Meltzer believes Swagger/Rusev is dead because of the bad press, and that's why they retconned the Battleground finish.

That's what the fuck they get. They had a SCORCHING HOT midcard feud on their hands, but they threw it all in the garbage with their tasteless use of MH17 to get Rusev over as a heel.

Using Putin to get over? Fine, Putin sucks and Slaughter used Saddam to get over as a heel too. But using the deaths of nearly 300 people is going too far.

New Page:

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Punk's gone brothers. Unless he decides to come back there will be an entire generation who probably will never hear about the guy. So relax, Brock's here, all is right in the world

 

[Ithil]

My simple argument is that Punk was never given a chance. You can talk about appeals and whatever all day, but Cena still remains the top guy in a down period for wrestling popularity, and Punk does represent a certain audience that WWE heavily neglects (and I'm not talking about "smarks"), as well as a "fresh face" aspect that is greatly helping Roman Reigns right now.

Another thing to bring up is those casual fans Cena supposedly is essential to? They're not what WWE needs now, because they are definitely not the type to subscribe to the WWE Network, and that is supposed to be WWE's lifeblood for the foreseeable future. I'm not saying "appeal to niche IWC things", I mean the really casual fans that only watch RAW and cheer Cena, they don't buy the Network, and that makes them fairly limited as revenue.

 

[Cagey]

Since they never did anything at Mania with the Rock but Cena vs. Rock twice, there is absolutely no proof that it was Cena vs. Rock that was drawing, or just the fact that Rock was there having a match.

Fact of the matter is that Punk vs. Rock at Mania could have been just as big, or even bigger than Cena vs. Rock was, as evidenced by the increased interest in the Royal Rumble and the fact that Cena vs. Rock for the title drew less than the first match. There is absolutely no proof for any claim that people wanted to see Rock vs. Cena II more than any other Rock match.

That's an entirely different claim than "who in the blue hell wanted to see Rock v. Cena again".

That's what the fuck they get. They had a SCORCHING HOT midcard feud on their hands, but they threw it all in the garbage with their tasteless use of MH17 to get Rusev over as a heel.[/IMG]

Wait, so Rusev v. Swagger is a midcard feud, and so was Punk's PPV matches as champion? Can we get a definitive ruling on what midcard means here?

 

[Sephzilla]

lol at Cena has broader appeal.

When's the last time Cena made it outside of the WWE machine?

Will you ever seen Cena featured like this:

-pic-

Hell fucking no.

Exactly.

When has Cena ever popped up in the mainstream without Vince footing the bill for the mainstream plug?

 

[Perspicacity]

Punk didn't deserve a Mania main event as a good guy, but as a villain he certainly did.

 

[MrPressStart]

Kind of (We're PG, but you're a BITCH), but you can have an entertaining PG show. Bad writing is bad writing and an age rating isn't going to change that.

Is it bad writing or bad acting? I agree the scripts are not the best.. but some of the acting is horrible. I love R Truth asking Jericho what happened last night.. so cheesy. Like R Truth gives a damn. His whole gimmick is just awful!

This whole authority needs to be scraped. They havea network and are not using it like they should. Feuds needs to take place during the week. I want to see Cena get jumped in a parking lot going into Target. Or Seth Rollins in Subway only to come out and see his car tore up thanks to Ambrose. They need to use the Network to build feuds so that they mean something.

 

[Aiii]

That's an entirely different claim than "who in the blue hell wanted to see Rock v. Cena again".

I have never made this claim anywhere, so this is not a counterargument to my post.

I'm arguing the "broader appeal" of John Cena over CM Punk and the fact that Sunny claimed people wanted John Cena vs. Rock II over Cena vs. Rock (or anyone) at Mania.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Since they never did anything at Mania with the Rock but Cena vs. Rock twice, there is absolutely no proof that it was Cena vs. Rock that was drawing, or just the fact that Rock was there having a match.

Fact of the matter is that Punk vs. Rock at Mania could have been just as big, or even bigger than Cena vs. Rock was, as evidenced by the increased interest in the Royal Rumble and the fact that Cena vs. Rock for the title drew less than the first match. There is absolutely no proof for any claim that people wanted to see Rock vs. Cena II more than any other Rock match.

---
Edit, to further this point:

It's hard to quantify exactly who is a draw, and I feel that in general it's the entire WWE brand as opposed to the spectacle of particular stars like it used to be. If Andre the Giant came to town, you WENT TO SEE THE GIANT.

It'd be dope if when you bought your ticket or ordered the PPV, you had a punch-card that said "I'm here to see _____" and you picked.

So it's like...are those RR buys up due to the Rock? Due to Punk's reign? Who REALLY knows? We can guess and make educated guesses but at the end of the day we're a bunch of dorks behind a computer. Like we'd have any clue.

Alls I was saying is Punk could never be at Cena's level, and he was given the tools to get to the top of a standard sized mountain, but John Cena is bigger and will always be, regardless of booking.

 

[Sephzilla]

Sunny, I love ya man but this has to be some gimmick posting or something. WWE was never confident in giving Punk the full endorsement and never ran with it to the fullest, and it's clearly obvious of that by how they booked Punks title reign.

Punk didn't deserve a Mania main event as a good guy, but as a villain he certainly did.

Punk worked best as an anti-hero honestly. Pure face Punk was too cheesy, pure heel Punk tried too hard to convince you to hate him.

 

[jmdajr]

Punk didn't deserve a Mania main event as a good guy, but as a villain he certainly did.

I think that's fair.

 

[Cagey]

To follow up on the "midcard" nonsense...

Wrestlemania 29 had three main events. Rock/Cena, Lesnar/HHH, Taker/Punk.

Taker/Punk was a main event draw. It was not the "midcard". Merely because it was not the LAST MATCH TO HAPPEN, does not relegate it down to a match of interest among two B-tier dudes.

EDIT: "midcard" gets used similarly to "job" or "bury" or "rocket push" or what have you, i.e. it's exaggerated.

I have never made this claim anywhere, so this is not a counterargument to my post.

I'm arguing the "broader appeal" of John Cena over CM Punk and the fact that Sunny claimed people wanted John Cena vs. Rock II over Cena vs. Rock (or anyone) at Mania.

I wasn't making that argument. I was responding to the silly notion that no one wanted to see Rock/Cena II.

 

[Aiii]

Alls I was saying is Punk could never be at Cena's level, and he was given the tools to get to the top of a standard sized mountain, but John Cena is bigger and will always be, regardless of booking.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one Sunny Mac, as I see the only reason for John Cena being bigger is the fact that he sells more merchandise to kids and nothing else. That's the source of his booking and the source of him being treated as a bigger deal by WWE, not any broad appeal.

I'm very much convinced it's his narrow appeal to a very specific source of income that is what gives John Cena his WWE status.

 

[BronsonLee]

The second Rock/Cena I popped the buyrate it did, number two was always going to be on the table.

Also this argument is stupid because Punk was never going to be happy with his spot anyway

 

[Deleted member 47027]

lol at Cena has broader appeal.

When's the last time Cena made it outside of the WWE machine?

Will you ever seen Cena featured like this:

Hell fucking no.

I see Cena on ESPN in a lot more ways

I'm telling you, Cena by far has more mainstream appeal.

 

[Sweeney Tom]

Friends, it's okay

Punk is the Greatest of All Time. Cena is the Greatest Champion in WWE History. They're both incredible. Don't divide in an argument about them, join together and celebrate them.

 

[Hasney]

That alone reminded me of the bitching that took place when Angle dropped the title to The Rock right before WrestleMania XVII. Angle is Punk in this analogy; Cena's Austin, and The Rock is The Rock. Angle might have had an even better match than The Rock against Austin, and that title change likely set the ceiling for how big Angle would ever get. But he was still a solid upper card wrestler/occasional main eventer, and he had to drop the belt because Austin vs. The Rock at WrestleMania was the money match, just like Cena vs. The Rock.

The biggest difference with that is that Cena has never been on Rock or Austins level, although neither would CM Punk be no matter what push he got. Plus I was fine with that as I never really liked Rocks ring work all the time, but when he was with Austin or Foley, goddamn the chemistry worked.

What should have happened is that Punk got more TV time and closed the shows more than Cena during his reign and have Cena/Punk for the title at Wrestlemania, showing that they were this generations Rock/Austin. They may never be as big as them, but in the ring, they have that same level of chemistry and bring out the best in each other.

The Rock? Well, if he came back as Hollywood Rock and tried to break the streak.... That would have been very delightful.

The second Rock/Cena I popped the buyrate it did, number two was always going to be on the table.

Also this argument is stupid because Punk was never going to be happy with his spot anyway

That's true. I think headlining Wrestlemania was the end goal regardless. It's like that documentary on him, he just says he always needs a goal... Well after having that long a title reign and headlining Wrestlemania, what would be next?

 

[MrPressStart]

Punk's gone brothers. Unless he decides to come back there will be an entire generation who probably will never hear about the guy. So relax, Brock's here, all is right in the world

My problem with Brock is that he is here (now)... and only now. His ass needs to be at Raw more than a few times a year. Same with Taker. Take did what 3 appearances last year and then Mania??? I call bull shit. I dont care about his age or what he has done in the past... He needs to be there helping story lines all along. These contracts where guys show up a few times a year is utter garbage. All it does is show the WWE's cards on what they plan to do.

 

[Malvingt2]

Since day one the WWE didn't know what to do with Punk. Never believe in him. How can you push someone like Cena when you don't have any faith in him?

That is the WWE biggest issues right now. They don't take risk unless the WWE is against the wall with no options.

 

[Sephzilla]

I wasn't making that argument. I was responding to the silly notion that no one wanted to see Rock/Cena II.

I wont argue that people did/didn't want to see Rock/Cena 2. But WWE should have been smart enough to leave a good thing alone. Rock/Cena 1 was all about the mystique of a legend facing a current star, just like Hogan/Rock was. There's no way a rematch could have matched that (and it didnt).

I'm telling you, Cena by far has more mainstream appeal.

The CM Punk article was something generated simply because of the waves Punk made.

John Cena appearing on ESPN as a WWE spokesperson is Vince paying the bill to get Cena's face out there.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Since day one the WWE didn't know what to do with Punk. Never believe in him. How can you push someone like Cena when you don't have any faith in him?

That is the WWE biggest issues right now. They don't take risk unless the WWE is against the wall with no options.

That's been something that's always been instrumental of them building new stars - something happened to their plan and someone else gets slotted in and makes the most of their opportunity. Almost always unexpected.

 

[Ithil]

I see Cena on ESPN in a lot more ways

I'm telling you, Cena by far has more mainstream appeal.

That's because WWE books him for those shows.

 

[Perspicacity]

That's been something that's always been instrumental of them building new stars - something happened to their plan and someone else gets slotted in and makes the most of their opportunity. Almost always unexpected.

lol

 

[Sibersk Esto]

My problem with Brock is that he is here (now)... and only now. His ass needs to be at Raw more than a few times a year. Same with Taker. Take did what 3 appearances last year and then Mania??? I call bull shit. I dont care about his age or what he has done in the past... He needs to be there helping story lines all along. These contracts where guys show up a few times a year is utter garbage. All it does is show the WWE's cards on what they plan to do.

Don't be like that. Health always comes first. He did more appearances than anyone thought he would do during the Brock feud. As for Brock, he's a commodity. When you have someone on his level, you don't need to build story lines. Just have him show up and the rest will take care of itself.

 

[Ithil]

That's been something that's always been instrumental of them building new stars - something happened to their plan and someone else gets slotted in and makes the most of their opportunity. Almost always unexpected.

Only they're no longer very open to that. Someone breaks out who wasn't in the plan, they instead get mad and try to relegate said person to a secondary position. Look at how long they wasted time ignoring Bryan, and even when he got his big break, he gets booked like a secondary guy.

They have their handpicks, and that's that.

 

[slightconfuse]

Cena ain't on talking dead . Probably doesn't even have a tv

 

[Bowser]

The CM Punk article was something generated simply because of the waves Punk made.

John Cena appearing on ESPN as a WWE spokesperson is Vince paying the bill to get Cena's face out there.

Exactly. Simmons sought out Punk to be on his podcast. People were genuinely intrigued with wrestling on a mainstream level with Summer of Punk. Lapsed fans came back to see what was happening.

Cena will never get those kinds of people. You'd think knowing that wrestling viewership has been shrinking so much precisely because of how WWE has operated over the past decade, they'd latch onto something that was garnering so much spontaneous press and attention.

But nope CENAWINSLOL

 

[Aiii]

The biggest mistake WWE made is not letting Punk do any crossover stuff on UFC television. No, I don't mean fighting, I mean analyzing, interviews, whatever. There's a big crossover appeal between UFC and WWE still, they should have capitalized on that.

But WWE's biggest problem with promotion is that they focus exclusively on being a "family friendly" show and appearing on morning TV and Radio shows instead.

Stupid.

 

[Malvingt2]

That's been something that's always been instrumental of them building new stars - something happened to their plan and someone else gets slotted in and makes the most of their opportunity. Almost always unexpected.

Zack Ryder.

 

[Perspicacity]

That's been something that's always been instrumental of them building new stars - something happened to their plan and someone else gets slotted in and makes the most of their opportunity. Almost always unexpected.

I wanted to lol at this again, because even though you're deliberately shitposting it's still dumb

 

[Hasney]

That's been something that's always been instrumental of them building new stars - something happened to their plan and someone else gets slotted in and makes the most of their opportunity. Almost always unexpected.

This is sometimes true. I think Bryan getting injured may turn out to be the best thing for him as well as I think he would have dropped the title at Battleground anyway for them to do Cena/Brock. I'd have loved for them to pull the trigger on Bryan/Brock as I think it would have been a tremendous match, but I don't think they would have.

What we would have had in terms of PPVs is Kane, Kane, Kane, the fatal-4 way with Bryan replacing Reigns or Orton (or just a triple threat with Cena and Kane, probably with Cena pinning Kane to protect Bryan a bit) and now the planned Summerslam match. Then Summerslam he'd probably "end the feud" with Kane as we yawn in the face of that match.

In general though, they haven't really built anyone in that time. I can understand why the rely on Cena since he isn't going anywhere, but it doesn't make for compelling watching when it plays out similar every year.

 

[kapowza]

woops

 

[slightconfuse]

Exactly. Simmons sought out Punk to be on his podcast. People were genuinely intrigued with wrestling on a mainstream level with Summer of Punk. Lapsed fans came back to see what was happening.

Cena will never get those kinds of people. You'd think knowing that wrestling viewership has been shrinking so much precisely because of how WWE has operated over the past decade, they'd latch onto something that was garnering so much spontaneous press and attention.

But nope CENAWINSLOL

Yea Cena was the reason I stopped watching WWE. Came back for Punk

 

[Sibersk Esto]

The biggest mistake WWE made is not letting Punk do any crossover stuff on UFC television. No, I don't mean fighting, I mean analyzing, interviews, whatever. There's a big crossover appeal between UFC and WWE still, they should have capitalized on that.

But WWE's biggest problem with promotion is that they focus exclusively on being a "family friendly" show and appearing on morning TV and Radio shows instead.

Stupid.

Vince's ego would've never allowed any superstar to make any appearance on any combat focused entertainment programs

 

[Anth0ny]

My simple argument is that Punk was never given a chance. You can talk about appeals and whatever all day, but Cena still remains the top guy in a down period for wrestling popularity, and Punk does represent a certain audience that WWE heavily neglects (and I'm not talking about "smarks"), as well as a "fresh face" aspect that is greatly helping Roman Reigns right now.

I just rewatched the Punk DVD, and I love the pattern we see Punk's career go in. Positivity and new heights achieved... followed by crushing disappointment.

1. Wow I got a contract to WWE... oh I'm going to OVW.
2. Wow Paul Heyman is really behind me... oh Paul Heyman is fired, bye bye ECW where I was actually getting over and was moderately successful.
3. Wow I won MITB and I actually successfully cashed in the briefcase... oh I'm not being taken seriously as a champion at all, just keeping this thing warm (as admitted in the documentary by HHH himself!)
4. Wow I just dropped one of the greatest promos ever and followed it up with a 5 star match at the PPV, I'm the best (and most over) wrestler in the world right now...

Obviously they let that feeling hang at the end of the documentary. But I hope one day they do a part 2 for that DVD... because it really is the same old shit after that. Great moment for Punk followed by crushing disappointment. After the 6th or 7th time that happens I understand why he walked away.

 

[Rafa=FedKilla]

Since day one the WWE didn't know what to do with Punk. Never believe in him. How can you push someone like Cena when you don't have any faith in him?

That is the WWE biggest issues right now. They don't take risk unless the WWE is against the wall with no options.

But they don't take risks when they are out of options. That's why Cena is champ now. They aren't panic mode Nintendo...

 

[Aiii]

Another thing that's insane and UFC related, why isn't WWE captalizing at all on Ronda Rousey's love of wrestling? Have her on one of your PPV shows as an panelist. Put the WWE logo on her Sports Bra. Give her free tickets to all your PPV's, sit her next to Ric Flair or something.

Shit like that, seems so easy.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Exactly. Simmons sought out Punk to be on his podcast. People were genuinely intrigued with wrestling on a mainstream level with Summer of Punk. Lapsed fans came back to see what was happening.

Cena will never get those kinds of people. You'd think knowing that wrestling viewership has been shrinking so much precisely because of how WWE has operated over the past decade, they'd latch onto something that was garnering so much spontaneous press and attention.

But nope CENAWINSLOL

Except Cena did get those lapsed fans, in a roundabout way thanks to the Rock. I remember the Rock vs Cena thread a couple years back, if you can find it, check out how many "Man I haven't watched in ages but I'll tune in to see Rock beat his ass" posts in there. Huge appeal.

 

[Cagey]

This is sometimes true. I think Bryan getting injured may turn out to be the best thing for him as well as I think he would have dropped the title at Battleground anyway for them to do Cena/Brock. I'd have loved for them to pull the trigger on Bryan/Brock as I think it would have been a tremendous match, but I don't think they would have.

What we would have had in terms of PPVs is Kane, Kane, Kane, the fatal-4 way with Bryan replacing Reigns or Orton (or just a triple threat with Cena and Kane, probably with Cena pinning Kane to protect Bryan a bit) and now the planned Summerslam match. Then Summerslam he'd probably "end the feud" with Kane as we yawn in the face of that match.

Assuming he recovers fully, the time off is best for him because he's part awesome wrestler, part awesome underdog (gets the kids and the internet alike behind him), and part avatar for the internet wanting to Beat The Man by having their guy triumph due to their work (see: every match he loses he's buried, feuding with Kane means he's buried, etc.). His absence makes the heart grow fonder, makes him an underdog having to climb the ladder all over again after getting to the top for a hot minute, and fuels the WWE Keeps Your Favs Down meta-storyline.

I'm not saying Bryan can't sustain a title run and be great, but I think it's undeniable he's best in the underdog fighting the world role.

 

[Ithil]

The biggest mistake WWE made is not letting Punk do any crossover stuff on UFC television. No, I don't mean fighting, I mean analyzing, interviews, whatever. There's a big crossover appeal between UFC and WWE still, they should have capitalized on that.

But WWE's biggest problem with promotion is that they focus exclusively on being a "family friendly" show and appearing on morning TV and Radio shows instead.

Stupid.

They also have an outdated view of what mainstream attention is and how they can get it. No one in their real audience gives a flying fuck about some morning talkshow, let alone the video package they show on RAW for Cena being on one.
Stuff like UFC, or Comic-Con, which Cena would die at, but Punk would thrive at, is what they ought to be targeting now. They are a niche product and they need to accept that and stop pretending they're mainstream like football.

Except Cena did get those lapsed fans, in a roundabout way thanks to the Rock. I remember the Rock vs Cena thread a couple years back, if you can find it, check out how many "Man I haven't watched in ages but I'll tune in to see Rock beat his ass" posts in there. Huge appeal.

That's like giving credit to Floyd Mayweather's opponents for his high box office draw throughout his career.

 

[RP912]

I see Cena on ESPN in a lot more ways

I'm telling you, Cena by far has more mainstream appeal.

Cena fits espn like a glove. They all are out of touch and rant about nothing.

 

[Vylash]

Beth Phoenix vs Ronda Rousey would've been the shit, thanks Vince

 

[Bowser]

Except Cena did get those lapsed fans, in a roundabout way thanks to the Rock. I remember the Rock vs Cena thread a couple years back, if you can find it, check out how many "Man I haven't watched in ages but I'll tune in to see Rock beat his ass" posts in there. Huge appeal.

Yeah and all of those people are back to not watching wrestling. Contrast to numerous people who actively participate in this thread STILL who said they came back because of Punk.

 

[Patryn]

I honestly think Punk had a greater chance to bring in a wider audience, including a large amount of lapsed wrestling fans such as myself, but they botched it so spectacularly that his legs were permanently cut out from under him.

Punk's chance to surpass Cena was in the aftermath of that MitB match. Whoever decided to bring him back so early, and especially whoever decided to bring in Kevin Nash just killed all that momentum.

Cena appeals to a limited audience, but it's the existing audience. At this point I don't think he'll ever be able to really break wrestling Attitude-era big, but he'll never let the audience dwindle to the point that the company is in truly mortal danger.

If the company really want to hit its super high again, they're going to have to take a chance on that person who may not have the same appeal to the current core audience, but does appeal to the outside potential audience.

Except Cena did get those lapsed fans, in a roundabout way thanks to the Rock. I remember the Rock vs Cena thread a couple years back, if you can find it, check out how many "Man I haven't watched in ages but I'll tune in to see Rock beat his ass" posts in there. Huge appeal.

Those fans came for the Rock. Cena just rode his coattails.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Yeah and all of those people are back to not watching wrestling. Contrast to numerous people who actively participate in this thread STILL who said they came back because of Punk.

Like Kyoufu?

 

[Cagey]

Yeah and all of those people are back to not watching wrestling. Contrast to numerous people who actively participate in this thread STILL who said they came back because of Punk.

I stayed for Punk, but I came back solely because The Rock appeared on Raw in February 2011.

 

[Malvingt2]

But they don't take risks when they are out of options. That's why Cena is champ now. They aren't panic mode Nintendo...

DB was not a risk for them?

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Another thing that's insane and UFC related, why isn't WWE captalizing at all on Ronda Rousey's love of wrestling? Have her on one of your PPV shows as an panelist. Put the WWE logo on her Sports Bra. Give her free tickets to all your PPV's, sit her next to Ric Flair or something.

Shit like that, seems so easy.

If it ain't breast cancer, the E could give two shits about female led endorsement

 

[Deleted member 47027]

I honestly think Punk had a greater chance to bring in a wider audience, including a large amount of lapsed wrestling fans such as myself, but they botched it so spectacularly that his legs were permanently cut out from under him.

Punk's chance to surpass Cena was in the aftermath of that MitB match. Whoever decided to bring him back so early, and especially whoever decided to bring in Kevin Nash just killed all that momentum.

Cena appeals to a limited audience, but it's the existing audience. At this point I don't think he'll ever be able to really break wrestling Attitude-era big, but he'll never let the audience dwindle to the point that the company is in truly mortal danger.

If the company really want to hit its super high again, they're going to have to take a chance on that person who may not have the same appeal to the current core audience, but does appeal to the outside potential audience.

I agree that Punk could have brought in a big audience. Cena's running the Children Farms - they're indoctrinated and brought in on a diet of Hustle (which is not taught) Loyalty and Respect. Punk's getting the outliers, and there's a lot. Well, he did get them. Cena's still running the Children Farms and bringing in a steady amount of kids and parents. It's foolish to NOT focus on kids, they're going to be your biggest potential demographic and build a foundation that encourages being a lifelong fan if you get to them early.

Outlying potential fans that Punk could reach float in and out, but if you compare that to a child that grew up on a diet of Never Give Up, they're always going to be a "better" customer than someone who just tuned in for Punk.

 

[Ithil]

DB was not a risk for them?

Pushing the most over guy in the company is the opposite of a risk.