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Just got my console (and I assume my account) banned from Live for playing Halo 4.
- Thread starter Skel1ingt0n
- Start date
I guess I was one of those specific cases, then. I'm not a lawyer, and I can only speak from personal experience - but I've been screwed both in arbitration and in actual court in tort proceedings from not having receipts from the date/time of sale present.
EDIT: A quick google search to satiate my curiosity brings up this: http://definitions.uslegal.com/r/receipts/
Court rules, which vary by jurisdiction, may require receipts to be submitted to prove claims of loss or expenses and in certain accountings required by law.
I'm not saying to pay any extra mind to a random website on the internet any more than you would my posts, but, there you have it.
We all know the store who sold the game did the OP a favor (as the people who visit these "mom and pop" stores are most likely familiar faces and chat up the employees). The store has to compete with the big boys (best buy and amazon) or go out of business. They do little things like selling games early, providing save game data, repairing machines for free etc. to keep their customers. Every single fucking person who goes to these stores know this. They don't sell early copies to "soccer moms" or mod consoles for little Timmy as they know this shit will backfire. Both parties know the small risk involved.
Getting caught by MS is like getting busted by the police buying pot. "No, no, no, you see officer, I thought I was buying a legit amount of potpourri, not pot so the seller is at fault, don't take me to jail." The OP in this situation is playing the victim card. He fucking knew he was buying the game early, he knew the risks, but never in his life thought he would get busted. He did. It wasn't a legit copy. It was an early copy, hence, breaking some convoluted rule MS has. You done fucked up. MS has every fucking right to fuck the OP and the store in this case until more proof is available. And even then, they don't have to honor shit. You both (store and OP) knew the risks, took a chance, got pinched. Man the fuck up, take your pinch like a man, and move on.
Getting caught by MS is like getting busted by the police buying pot. "No, no, no, you see officer, I thought I was buying a legit amount of potpourri, not pot so the seller is at fault, don't take me to jail." The OP in this situation is playing the victim card. He fucking knew he was buying the game early, he knew the risks, but never in his life thought he would get busted. He did. It wasn't a legit copy. It was an early copy, hence, breaking some convoluted rule MS has. You done fucked up. MS has every fucking right to fuck the OP and the store in this case until more proof is available. And even then, they don't have to honor shit. You both (store and OP) knew the risks, took a chance, got pinched. Man the fuck up, take your pinch like a man, and move on.
I'm just going to post this on every page.
I agree banning legit sales is wrong.
The creator of this topic CANNOT prove he bought the game legally! PERIOD
Microsoft may still unban him.
Keep calling Microsoft horrible and wrong for banning someone that has no way to prove they legally bought a game though.
AzureSkies
Member
No offense, but that's a little too far. There's no way you can compare buying pot to buying Halo 4 early
Correct. Offer, Acceptance, and Consideration (in this case, money). Those are all the elements you need to have a valid contract. A receipt is merely evidence of the sale transaction, and really used more to protect the store from out of warranty claims. You can prove you bought the item and paid for it in other ways, if you ever lost the receipt, like a credit card transaction report.
As this poster said, there are some cases where you do need a writing, with the best example being the sale of real property (land). But not the sale of a video game!
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
Without proving that consideration (in this case, money, as you said) was made, the transaction isn't recognized. Lack of receipt, or credit card statement, or some proof that consideration is made, means you don't have a pot to piss in. I've been screwed in that way before...I keep very meticulous records of receipts as a result, now.
You are correct about this.
It is nothing at all like buying pot. Buying and selling pot is illegal. Buying and selling a video game before the release date is not.
Yes, you should continue to accuse him of being a lying thief on every page.
OldJadedGamer
Banned
End of the day, it is the store's fault. Not the OP or MS. They sold an item they were not allowed by contract to sell. The buck stops there.
The store didn't ring it up so they can't prove the sale either. According to the store records, not a single copy of Halo 4 has been sold.
No hate intended or anything, but I thought it was pretty much universally known that buying before release day is something that is great and all but definitely an at your own risk thing if you take it online.
The OP knew that they were getting it early and knew the risks.
The store definitely did not sell it, and boo them except that everyone else wishes that they knew of a store just like it and would not hesitate to buy early also.
The OP knew that they were getting it early and knew the risks.
The store definitely did not sell it, and boo them except that everyone else wishes that they knew of a store just like it and would not hesitate to buy early also.
Absolute rubbish. The transaction has already taken place. He paid money, he received the item. Whether he got a piece of paper afterwards means nothing. Money has been exchanged for a product. That's a transaction.
That definition doesn't mean what you think it means. A receipt is evidence that a transaction occurred, but it is not a required element to prove a transaction occurred except in certain situations.
blitzcloud
Banned
A transaction has not happened in the eyes of the law unless a receipt with taxes was created for it.
Black market transactions are not transactions in the eyes of the law. Just to clarify the previous discussion
Black market transactions are not transactions in the eyes of the law. Just to clarify the previous discussion
That's the burden of proof you are speaking to, not the elements of a valid contract. A receipt is not an element of that determination is what I am saying. I didn't say it would be easy to prove you provided cash consideration as a receipt, just that not having the receipt doesn't mean you don't have a valid contract for sale and purchase. One other way to prove it is by testimony under oath, by both the buyer and the seller, and let the judge or jury decide. It's just a piece of paper after all, it can blow out your hand when you're walking out of the store. That doesn't mean that you have no recourse against the seller without it. Just a lot more difficult to prove.
I'm not just talking out of my arse, I'm a corporate lawyer. Which reminds me, I need to get back to work...
Could you perhaps enlighten me, then, as to some examples of these certain situations? Really don't mean to sound like I'm throwing you under the bus here, honestly looking to educate myself (and perhaps hire a better lawyer).
bigdaddygamebot
Member
Oh...I dunno.
Probably happens more than we think and generally occurs without consequence.
BattleMonkey
Member
Without receipts, no proof of that transaction happening. It's not just on the buyer, but the store hiding the fact that they sold a copy.
blitzcloud
Banned
That's the burden of proof you are speaking to, not the elements of a valid contract. A receipt is not an element of that determination is what I am saying. I didn't say it would be easy to prove you provided cash consideration as a receipt, just that not having the receipt doesn't mean you don't have a valid contract for sale and purchase. One other way to prove it is by testimony under oath, by both the buyer and the seller, and let the judge or jury decide. It's just a piece of paper after all, it can blow out your hand when you're walking out of the store. That doesn't mean that you have no recourse against the seller without it. Just a lot more difficult to prove.
I'm not just talking out of my arse, I'm a corporate lawyer. Which reminds me, I need to get back to work...
Nice to know. I mean, I know you have a recourse, but it's not the kind of recourse one would need for many things. But good luck trying to get your warranty, returns, etc without one.
Also I understand why this transaction didn't have a receipt. It falls under the category of black market, doesn't it? I mean, no receipt, no taxes, and all that.
PS: i mean, it would be a baseless claim
guy 1: He sold it to me!
guy 2: He stole it from the counter!
Nov 1st I heard.
bigboss370
Member
It won't be easy, but some stores do it. Nordstroms for example. They will take back returns without a receipt. Like I said though, credit card transaction reports usually work with most reputable stores. Bottom line is to keep that receipt because if you lose it chances are the item won't be worth the trouble you'll need to go through to prove you bought it at THAT store on THAT date, specially if you paid cash.
The sales tax issue is another one all together, but not collecting sales tax doesn't mean you don't have a contract. It is a crime in most states by the retailer though. But how many times has some store you've gone to insisted that customers pay cash, no credit cards accepted? Think they are reporting all transactions and paying all sales tax? No way. Doesn't mean you didn't enter into a valid sale and purchase agreement with them.
Me too, but all of this is really getting off the original topic of discussion (and is probably why this thread has gone on for so long) - its pretty clear that MS' current policies re: Live and early releases is poor, and better measures need to be taken to ensure legitimate customers do not get swept up in anti-piracy motions.
BibiMaghoo
Member
Which country / state did this happen in?
It's kinda relevant. Do we know?
It's kinda relevant. Do we know?
Off the top of my head, you must have a writing to prove a contract for the sale of land, a contract that will not be performed for one year or more, and a contract to marry (if they even still exist at all). Otherwise, you can prove the contract just with oral testimony.
Now, that's not to say a receipt isn't important. If you don't have a receipt, the jury or judge (or arbitrator) may not believe that you had a contract at all. Further (and probably more directly to your question), a receipt is usually the best evidence of the amount of money the contract involved. So if you're trying to recover, for example, the purchase price for a product, and you don't have a receipt for what you paid, the jury or judge (or arbitrator) may determine that you failed to prove your damages.
There is a difference between proving you had a contract and proving what your damages are for breach of that contract. As it relates to this thread, the issue was whether OP needed a receipt to prove he bought the game, and the answer to that is no. But if OP sued the game store for some reason to recover the purchase price, his inability to provide a receipt could cause him to lose that case because he couldn't satisfactorily prove what amount he paid.
jstevenson
Sailor Stevenson
I'm stunned there is a 22 page thread about this despite a Frankie post on the first page saying it'll be dealt with.
Metalmurphy
Member
"EDIT: Honestly, don't even really give a fuck if I have to buy another console. I'll deal. But can I at least get my Gamertag back?"
Are you freaking serious? You rather buy a new console then not have your gamertag back? oO
Are you freaking serious? You rather buy a new console then not have your gamertag back? oO
ii Stryker
Banned
This amazes me as well.
I think a thread title change would've been nice.
Dude, you need to stop talkin.
Semantics arguments. We're bored, what?
I prefer the term mental masturbation.
See? ;P
Stopped reading as it got repetitive so I may of missed some stuff and may repeat some stuff here:
1. This is what choc was talking about (I presume)
2. PR people as well as high ups in large communities have their gamer tags on a list
3. It is getting harder for pirates, as of now only certain burners will work and of those certain burners you need a certain serial number that indicates the firmware can be flashed on the actual dvd burner or else your copy will get you banned, but assuming you have the correct burner flashed with correct firmware you are not detectable, I know a person who used the same xbox for Reach 2 weeks early, mw3 early and Halo 4 was what got him the ban.
4. Even if the OP went out of his way and found the guy on craigslist he is not at fault, the game says do not sell if the sticker said do not play or else... to the point they made it publicly known to anyone that doesnt go to forums / gaming sites then it would be different.
... however a point of sale requires a receipt not just money changing hands
.... Lastly I think bans should be handed out to legit copies but just until release and only for HALO 4 MP no other services, because of the MLG tournament happening before release, but even then there are tons of known players on XBSlink constantly so it wouldn't prevent much.
1. This is what choc was talking about (I presume)
http://i.imgur.com/lX8Um.jpg
For more info google Halo 4 now in "Test Phase"
For more info google Halo 4 now in "Test Phase"
2. PR people as well as high ups in large communities have their gamer tags on a list
3. It is getting harder for pirates, as of now only certain burners will work and of those certain burners you need a certain serial number that indicates the firmware can be flashed on the actual dvd burner or else your copy will get you banned, but assuming you have the correct burner flashed with correct firmware you are not detectable, I know a person who used the same xbox for Reach 2 weeks early, mw3 early and Halo 4 was what got him the ban.
4. Even if the OP went out of his way and found the guy on craigslist he is not at fault, the game says do not sell if the sticker said do not play or else... to the point they made it publicly known to anyone that doesnt go to forums / gaming sites then it would be different.
... however a point of sale requires a receipt not just money changing hands
.... Lastly I think bans should be handed out to legit copies but just until release and only for HALO 4 MP no other services, because of the MLG tournament happening before release, but even then there are tons of known players on XBSlink constantly so it wouldn't prevent much.
There's really no piracy response to this measure that isn't coincidental on their part. It's just a policy to stop people from playing releases early, and it's much cheaper to fuck end users than it is the people that distribute their titles.
blitzcloud
Banned
We have stores here which basically will even let you have an user with your receipts aswell. But i'm thinking this is more about the fact it was just a transaction with cash money, so no way to prove it. Also, I know this sounds even more on the paranoid side, but if it was just a clerk, disposing of one unit of the bulk could mean he gets the money for the game, and when they realize all the units are gone and the numbers don't match...well it either got lost or stolen!
Why do you keep comparing used bartering (ie Craigslist) and shady businesses with a retail store transaction?
EULA isn't legally binding I'm talking about existing laws for software licenses. We have already been over this before ad nauseum on gaf. When you buy software you buy a license. That transaction won't occur until launch day therefore the OP did not own a legit license until that date. It is well within MS's right to ban someone playing a pre release copy without proof of sale in my opinion.
So when I pay for a game on my PC, pre download it so I have 100% of the game I can legally crack it and play early? No.
Also the OP knew he was getting one over because he was told they won't process the transaction until launch day.
HawksWinStanley
Member
Wow. Did MS kill your family? You're making it sound like the OP was falsely accused of rape.
He knowingly broke the street date and they're still unbanning him. I don't get why everyone is flipping out over this.
Perhaps I should have left the piracy part out of my post you've quoted up there. I don't think its a particularly good practice to fuck either the end users OR the distributors. After all, even though this situation was resolved back on Page 1 - look at how large this thread has become, and how many eyes have read the OPs story, and walk away from this thread with a greater distaste for Microsoft and their Live policies!
Ninja Scooter
Member
and what if this happened to some poor schlub who happened upon an early copy of Halo 4 at a retailer and wasn't a member of a message board where he had direct access to someone who works at 343/MS?
So I better save my receipts of every game I purchase from retail in the future, else I should fear Microsoft will ban me and the hundreds of dollars I've invested in XBLA? Right.
Impressions have been floating around for weeks. Single player is awesome, it's story-heavy like Halo 2 was, the music is the weakest part, and multiplayer is what you've come to expect with some light CoD trappings.
That's pretty much exactly what's being propositioned here, yeah.
Moral Panic
Member
Because he never broke the street date. The shop did. He has no contract as to street dates with Microsoft so their banning him is completely unacceptable.
LOL at everyone who says it's not a transaction because he didn't get a receipt, that's some of the dumbest crap I've heard all day.
Yeah, we are definitely in agreement there. I am just surprised to see how many people in this thread have argued for this policy on the basis that it is somehow an anti-piracy measure. It doesn't really make much sense to me.