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[Stinkles]

What does [her having PTSD] that have to do with anything?


.

I don't know of it does or not but she herself felt it was important information to share in the blog. If it were a court of law it would be HIGHLY pertinent. But it's a forum discussion about a single accusation from an involved party.


If this gets corroborated then by all means have at him but right as of this second it's a he said she said after a messy divorce.

I haven't read the last few pages so maybe I'm late.

 

[Vermillion]

So next time we have a thread asking people "Are you a feminist? If not, why," it's understood that "believing women are equal" isn't sufficient?

Because yes, Whedon is a shitty person for cheating. Unquestionably. But all of these other qualifiers make it so that you can't really call yourself a feminist unless, you have never done something harmful to women (or, another person, really) in any capacity.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

I think the problem is that Whedon himself (if we are to believe his ex-wife's version of events) said that it does.

Whedon surrounded himself with women, and this was a concern to his wife, until Whedon told her that he wasn't being a horndog, it's just that "as a feminist" he prefers the company of women, because women are superior. "As a feminist" he doesn't lust after women (except for his wife), all he does is admire and respect them. And she was dumb enough to believe that.

And Whedon himself apparently believed it was true, because he surrounded himself with pussy, and then as soon as he started feeling horny, he dismissed that reaction as a horrible sudden curse, "a disease".

people seriously need to to read this post before they come in all 'cheating doesn't do anything to feminism'.

The issue isn't that he cheated, it's the fact he is considered by many to be some super feminist yet he spent years lying to his wife about fucking other women and used him being a feminist to excuse his suspicious activities and allow him to continue cheating on his wife.

When caught, he claimed it was like he had a disease and couldn't stop himself. All those precious, young, impressionable women he was the boss of were just too much and it was apparently, as I said, like a disease.

 

[Vermillion]

I think the problem is that Whedon himself (if we are to believe his ex-wife's version of events) said that it does.

Whedon surrounded himself with women, and this was a concern to his wife, until Whedon told her that he wasn't being a horndog, it's just that "as a feminist" he prefers the company of women, because women are superior. "As a feminist" he doesn't lust after women (except for his wife), all he does is admire and respect them. And she was dumb enough to believe that.

And Whedon himself apparently believed it was true, because he surrounded himself with pussy, and then as soon as he started feeling horny, he dismissed that reaction as a horrible sudden curse, "a disease".

That makes him a total idiot with a warped view of feminism. From my perspective.

But of course, if he used feminism as a shield to cover up the fact he was cheating, it was definitely a facade.

But that doesn't make a person who cheats *not* a feminist. Just in this case they're linked.

 

[Pau]

So next time we have a thread asking people "Are you a feminist? If not, why," it's understood that "believing women are equal" isn't sufficient?

Because yes, Whedon is a shitty person for cheating. Unquestionably. But all of these other qualifiers make it so that you can't really call yourself a feminist unless, you have never done something harmful to women (or, another person, really) in any capacity.

You can identify as a feminist and also act in ways or uphold certain beliefs that some would consider anti-feminist. The dictionary definition of feminism makes it sound pretty binary and simple, but once you get into feminist scholarship and activism, it's really not. That's how you get sex-negative and sex-positivie feminists who argue that the other side isn't real feminism or at the least that it's a more damaging kind.

And in any case, someone who bases a large part of their career on their feminism is going to be under more scrutiny than a random poster on a forum. Whedon can call himself a feminist all he wants. People can decide if his brand of feminism is something they find genuine, agree with, or want to support.

 

[Doc_Drop]

I understand the element of agency with regards to employees and co-workers, but fans and fan culture allows for a far more insidious and one sided relationship no?

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

Haven't we moved past the point where anyone can pretend to be shocked that rich powerful men and women with tons of options aren't monogamous

The whole thing reminds me of that South Park episode about Tiger Woods. It was on last night, as a matter-of-fact.

 

[HiredN00bs]

It's a mistake to idolize people. Joss wrote strong female characters that have undoubtedly had an impact on television and film. He also did horrendous damage to his wife and family and leveraged his position to have affairs with beautiful actresses. Nothing about this is shocking. I feel for his family.

 

[Thug Waffle]

Not sure how much having an affair undermines a cheater's feminist values, but it's sad to hear regardless.

 

[BKatastrophe]

Aaaaaw fucking come on man.

Here's what I'll say: based on interviews I've read/watched, the letters don't sound like things Whedon would say, plus this blog post is obviously very angry, bitter, and pointed.

On the other hand, though I don't want to believe it, I can buy Whedon having had an affair or two.

Hard to process. I really like Whedon and his work, but this sucks. Hopefully the damage to the family can be healed and recovered from.

If you pay attention in Buffy and Angel it is really apparent.


Dude had a hard-on for punishing his women characters whenever they had sex.

No he didn't. He never punished a single character for sex.

 

[Principate]

Aaaaaw fucking come on man.

Here's what I'll say: based on interviews I've read/watched, the letters don't sound like things Whedon would say, plus this blog post is obviously very angry, bitter, and pointed.

On the other hand, though I don't want to believe it, I can buy Whedon having had an affair or two.

Hard to process. I really like Whedon and his work.


No he didn't. He never punished a single character for sex.

Err didn't angel go evil because he and Buffy had sex. Sounds like punishment for sex to me.

 

[mcrommert]

Err didn't angel go evil because he and Buffy had sex. Sounds like punishment for sex to me.

Well if we are going that way... It was his punishment... Buffy was collateral damage there

 

[superbeau]

So he used the Soft Boy act?

 

[LordKasual]

SHOCKING NEWS!!!!111 -- Man who does things that people think are good for society actually turns out to be a flawed human

wow, thanks, i was almost in danger of thinking he was a perfectly moral saint with no skeletons or vices

nice to know he's actually not a feminist and instead is cheating womanizer scum who's probably a secret misogynist as well, I think I hate him now


Am i doing this right?

thank god I read this scorned letter so that i can view all of his work in the darker light it so obviously deserves

 

[mcrommert]

This continues to prove me correct in the only actor or director living or dead that i hold up as a hero is Ricardo Montalbán

 

[MickeyPhree]

This guy helped ruin the Alien franchise. Color me shocked.

 

[Kayhan]

SHOCKING NEWS!!!!111 -- Man who does things that people think are good for society actually turns out to be a flawed human

wow, thanks, i was almost in danger of thinking he was a perfectly moral saint with no skeletons or vices

nice to know he's actually not a feminist and instead is cheating womanizer scum who's probably a secret misogynist as well, I think I hate him now


Am i doing this right?

thank god I read this scorned letter so that i can view all of his work in the darker light it so obviously deserves

Shocking news, people aren't fond of hypocrisy.

 

[gun_haver]

SHOCKING NEWS!!!!111 -- Man who does things that people think are good for society actually turns out to be a flawed human

wow, thanks, i was almost in danger of thinking he was a perfectly moral saint with no skeletons or vices

nice to know he's actually not a feminist and instead is cheating womanizer scum who's probably a secret misogynist as well, I think I hate him now


Am i doing this right?

It's frustrating. Something like this especially with a figure so popular with geeky types is going to become a lightning rod for arguments about what constitutes misogyny and all this extraneous stuff about the content of his work which is starting on this page (if you wanna talk about the feminist merits of Buffy, good, but to drag it into 'is joss whedon sexist in his personal life' is just gonna create chaos where there is no answer).

Things do come out about famous people revealing that they have been committing crimes, sexual crimes or otherwise, and that's something. This isn't something - at least, not based on what is in this blog post. It's his ex-wife revealing to the public that Joss cheated on her many times and how hard that was for her. It's sad and yeah it makes him an asshole, a weak mess, on a personal level, but that's entirely different than being outed as a sexual criminal and is really not any of the public's business.

The frustrating part comes in where, it's a lightning rod, so you're going to get people who just want to attack the poor woman for making a post accusing Joss Whedon of being a hypocrite, and people who are going to blow this out of proportion into more than what it is - a personal matter. Women don't get supported when they come out with real serious shit, and that's going to get mixed up in this, which is just a failed marriage hung out to dry in public.

I don't know the real circumstances, never will, and I really don't care to if this is all it is. Can't say whether she was right or wrong to make the post to the public, but I don't think this is going to do anybody any good to know about.

If we're gonna question Joss's feminist ideals, let's do it on the basis of his work - the only reason anybody cares - not on the basis of him cheating on his wife.

 

[WrenchNinja]

If the thoughts striking your head right now is that "nobody's perfect" and "he wrote good shows tho" with regards to a serial cheater who endangered his wife and gave her ptsd, then you need to seriously reexamine the shit in your head

 

[DeathyBoy]

If the thoughts striking your head right now is that "nobody's perfect" and "he wrote good shows tho" with regards to a serial cheater who endangered his wife and gave her ptsd, then you need to seriously reexamine the shit in your head

It's jaw dropping that people can post "everyone cheats, lol" and aren't perma banned on the spot.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

It's jaw dropping that people can post "everyone cheats, lol" and aren't perma banned on the spot.

Cheating seems to get a pass from a large portion of Gaf, just like corporate politicians do too.

 

[plagiarize]

So he used the Soft Boy act?

Sure sounds like it.

 

[H.Protagonist]

It's jaw dropping that people can post "everyone cheats, lol" and aren't perma banned on the spot.

Don't know why you think that should be worth a perma-ban, but I agree that it's weird that so many seem to think it's an inevitability. Do guys really think it's impossible to stay faithful, or at the least, get divorced if they're unable to abide by their own marriage? Not sure why it gets such a pass. Humans and relationships aren't black and white, and we're all capable of degrees of fallibility, but a serial cheater? Having your cake and wanting to eat it too seems like a shitty move that shouldn't be up for debate. That's just me, though.

 

[ApharmdX]

I don't know how to feel about this. I don't think it invalidates the man's supposed feminism. Whedon is a piece of shit though as a person. "Disease"? You gotta be fucking kidding me. You have to be a powerful successful (lying clueless) man to try to pass off being a philandering husband as a disease!

 

[Doc_Drop]

It's not just you

 

[BKatastrophe]

Err didn't angel go evil because he and Buffy had sex. Sounds like punishment for sex to me.

Angel went evil because of perfect happiness, which is Whedon's MO: things can never be perfectly happy. Buffy wasn't punished for the sex. They went to great lengths to explain that it wasn't her fault.

The point is that it isn't the sex that elicits the punishment.

I've already gone off-topic enough. Apologies to the thread.

 

[Goodstyle]

Whedonesque has shut down over this.

This is heartbreaking. So many people feel let down by all this.

And before someone responds with a snarky "What do you expect! He's famous!", read Kai's blog post again. He didn't just cheat on his wife, he destroyed her, he broke her identity, her confidence, who she was before she met him. The way he treated her was reminiscent to how he writes his villains to treat women, just this sick long-term emotional manipulation designed to make her feel more like an object than a person. It feels like a betrayal, even if you think it's ridiculous to think that way or to believe what his ex-wife has to say.

 

[Onemic]

Cheating and being a feminist are not mutually exclusive

 

[MisterHero]

He was following Wonder Woman's creator a little too closely.

 

[A-V-B]

This is heartbreaking. So many people feel let down by all this.

Holy shit, I didn't know about that. That is heartbreaking. One of the remaining stalwards of old-style internet fandom. Damn... 'nother one bites the dust.

 

[Meier]

I'm not a fan of his in general so I'm a little ambivalent about this as far as its effects on him or his career are concerned, but I saw someone post a screenshot of the text of this on Twitter with a purported quote from Joss and it felt a little unfair to be honest. The quote was in reference to how it was hard for him to be faithful due to patriarchy or some such and it had an "!" at the end of the quote. A reply to the post framed it as being even worse since it was exclamatory.

I kind of wanted to reply and point out that there is no proof he actually said it and if he did, that he said it that way but Twitter isn't a good place for that sort of interjection so I just moved on but I think we have to at a minimum I understand that the way this is framed is meant to make him look especially bad. The fact it succeeded is not a surprise and taking it all at face value is a little naive.

 

[Principate]

Angel went evil because of perfect happiness, which is Whedon's MO: things can never be perfectly happy. Buffy wasn't punished for the sex. They went to great lengths to explain that it wasn't her fault.

The point is that it isn't the sex that elicits the punishment.

I've already gone off-topic enough. Apologies to the thread.

But it's the sex that triggers it. I'm not sure how you leave that scene without feeling Buffy regretting having slept with him.

Either way Wheadon has always come across as an eccentric individual so after the ww script came out his response to his wife in this doesn't surprise me.

 

[LordKasual]

If the thoughts striking your head right now is that "nobody's perfect" and "he wrote good shows tho" with regards to a serial cheater who endangered his wife and gave her ptsd, then you need to seriously reexamine the shit in your head

1) If I have to choose a dentist for a root canal, then i choose the one who's going to do it well. Not the one who doesn't cheat on his wife, as if that has anything to do with me, anyone else he works on or encounters, or what i'm paying him for. If you're incapable of distancing the person from the work they put out, then that's YOUR own issue.

2) The wife and her personal issues are between her, Joss Whedon, and anyone within their inner circle who is affected. There isn't shit I or anyone else can do about her PTSD caused by cheating because we didn't fucking cheat on her. No amount of people vocally expressing their hatred of him is going to cure her PTSD either.

You think i need to reevaulate the way my mind works because I don't base my entire opinion of a person's work off his non-criminal domestic affairs? Hop off your high horse please.

It's jaw dropping that people can post "everyone cheats, lol" and aren't perma banned on the spot.

LOL, the fuck?

So what, you think we're all supposed to hear this scorned account, curse Joss Whedon for what he did, and denounce all of his works? That's the right thing to do? That sets the record straight between him and his wife? No?

hey, about we go back and psychoanalyze every female character he's ever written with this new insight, just to see how terrible an example of feminism it is? Because he's clearly just faking it, he's clearly a phony. It was just to fuck his co-workers, it's so obvious

In fact, we should disallow anything he's ever done from ever being seen as empowering or feminist, no matter how good an example it would have been otherwise, no matter how many women currently view his characters as examples of empowerment, because they're all lies. Be sure to let the next girl you see wearing with a Buffy shirt know that her shirt is weaved out of lies

hop off that stilted horse of yours as well please


Jeeze, people on the internet are fickle. Like, dangerously, depressingly fickle.

It's frustrating. Something like this especially with a figure so popular with geeky types is going to become a lightning rod for arguments about what constitutes misogyny and all this extraneous stuff about the content of his work which is starting on this page (if you wanna talk about the feminist merits of Buffy, good, but to drag it into 'is joss whedon sexist in his personal life' is just gonna create chaos where there is no answer).

It's just aggravating. If Albert Einstein was alive right now, he'd probably be getting lambasted for the way he treated his wife too.

It's not his wife or her account that bothers me. She has the right to air out whatever she wants to, anyone would feel compelled to do so in her shoes. It's fair.


But it's the way that people already have their pitchforks ready, like they've been waiting for it. It's the way that established fan websites are already cowering away in fear, not from the act itself, but from the festering internet mob that they know is going to follow in the essay's wake. It's the way that other establishments will be compelled to speak out and denounce Joss Whedon, not because they think it's their duty, but because they know what's going to happen if they don't.

It's the lack of rationality behind how this is going to be dealt with. If this happened at a dinner table, then it would be handled far differently than it's being handled now.


People want to speak of hypocrisy, but if everyone was unfortunate enough to have someone write a public detailed essay of their flaws then NOBODY would have any fucking heroes

 

[Hari Seldon]

Cheating and being a feminist are not mutually exclusive

Having sex with women way younger than you that you hold a position of power over makes you a creep, and pretty anti-feminist.

 

[platocplx]

Cheating and being a feminist are not mutually exclusive

actually they are. because he took away her right to choose to be with him despite him being a polygamous person.

I think we all could take a look at this and see that if we are having our cake and eating it too with cheating and it comes to a head without you being honest about who you are and what you like as a man. It hurts women.

Because clearly his wife wanted to be in a monogamous relationship while he didnt and he should have been up front about it.

I didnt realize until recently about being wholly honest with women and my intentions and by actually telling them like hey im not just dating you and you can either accept that or move on if thats not what you want which allows for her to make a choice. He took that away from her when she could have went on to be with someone that cares for her in a monogamous manner.

That is where you do hit a different aspect of feminism I think. Im still working towards that because i think its important for women to know whats up and where our dick and heart may lie.

But I cant say he's still not some level of feminism based on some of the more basic ideals but there is A LOT that we men do that we dont even realize that we are still hurting women.

 

[BenjiGAF]

I mean, if the dude was serial cheating for 15 years with different partners, most of whom worked as an employee or were fans, and caused this much trauma to his wife, I don't know how this doesn't undermine his nature towards women.

She has essentially had to sit back whilst he's been put on a pedestal whilst she's known his real nature, I'd be livid personally.

The amount of downplaying of infidelity here is eye opening also. Mistakes can be made, but this is a clear pattern of behaviour. You don't have to be perfect and no-one is, but he's obviously a piece of work in this regard.

Thank you for being a voice of reason in a sea of madness.

 

[Straight Edge]

Don't know why you think that should be worth a perma-ban, but I agree that it's weird that so many seem to think it's an inevitability.

Studies show that in about 1/3 of marriages one or both spouses cheat. That's a huge amount.

 

[Doc_Drop]

Studies show that in about 1/3 of marriages one or both spouses cheat. That's a huge amount.

I wonder how many of them cheated more than once and with multiple partners.

Yes, there are lots of people who most likely shouldn't be married

 

[Kayhan]

Having sex with women way younger than you that you hold a position of power over makes you a creep, and pretty anti-feminist.

And reveling in your power over said women.

 

[ChockaBlocka]

1) long-winded tosh

That's a whole lotta text you went out of your way to write just to defend someone who is a complete asshole. If Albert Einstein was a POS to his wife and was called out for it by the public, you'd defend him just because he was Albert Einstein, huh? Brave.

 

[obeast]

I've never been entirely on board with Whedon's brand of feminism, which always struck me as slightly dated, or maybe fetishistic. He writes a lot of "kick-ass" women, but a pretty high proportion of them are 90 pound models. A character like Game of Thrones' Brienne feels somehow more real and modern, and less exploitative, although I'd hardly hold up GoT as a perfect icon of feminism in general.

That said, I'm not sure I like the straight line being drawn between infidelity and feminist hypocrisy. If a woman cheats on her loving and faithful husband, she is not a misandrist. She is just a human being with flaws. The reverse is true as well.

Now, if and when the details come out, perhaps they will show that Whedon played upon his fame and power to coerce people into sex (this seems highly probable, to be honest). That would be hypocritical in the extreme. But if the facts are simply that he had consensual relationships with coworkers who were actually into him, it strikes me as mostly orthogonal to feminism. Bad person, though, and worthy of blame? Absolutely.

 

[DeathyBoy]

I wonder how many of them cheated more than once and with multiple partners.

Yes, there are lots of people who most likely shouldn't be married

I wonder how many of them drive by post in Gaf threads.

 

[JeTmAn81]

What's that quote I read somewhere recently...it went something like, "Admiration is the opposite of understanding." It's never a good idea to lionize human beings. We're all equally flawed and selfish.

 

[Dr.Acula]

Just knowing his body of work, I never got his label as this big feminist figure. Sure, he's a feminist, but as much of a feminist as his contemporaries like Tarantino or Cameron, both self-described feminists, but nothing Whedon has done makes me think of him as some trailblazer for feminism. He's just someone who writes stuff that could be about a man or a woman and chooses to make it a woman sometimes.

 

[Ralemont]

But it's the sex that triggers it. I'm not sure how you leave that scene without feeling Buffy regretting having slept with him.

Yes but the episodes after have characters repeatedly tell Buffy - despite Buffy blaming herself - that she couldn't have known and that it's 100% his fault that he's going around killing people. It's a clear allegory for the woman blaming herself in an abusive relationship instead of the aggressor, demonstrated further by her hoping for awhile that he'd change back or become the man she loved before. The season finale ends with her accepting that's never going to happen and severing ties with him (in Buffy fashion, the metaphorical becoming literal with a sword).

The worst message you can take from it is that Buffy's mother chastizes her for sleeping with a guy she didn't really know, which isn't an anti-feminist message at all but rather cautionary and relevant for teenage sex in general.

Buffy and women in general are also hardly the only ones to suffer negative consequences from sex. Liam becomes Angelus because he was a womanizer and followed Darla into an alley for a hookup, for example.

 

[Sickboy007]

Don't know why you think that should be worth a perma-ban, but I agree that it's weird that so many seem to think it's an inevitability. Do guys really think it's impossible to stay faithful, or at the least, get divorced if they're unable to abide by their own marriage? Not sure why it gets such a pass. Humans and relationships aren't black and white, and we're all capable of degrees of fallibility, but a serial cheater? Having your cake and wanting to eat it too seems like a shitty move that shouldn't be up for debate. That's just me, though.

I don't know if it's impossible, I'd say from what I've seen in my life, and according to most stats, fidelity and infedelity are about as common as one another, and even then it's mostly due to environment and circumstances. And I don't know why you're calling out guys in particular, since, at least where I'm from, women are more likely to cheat than men. I guess it's a cultural issue, the way (not just, but mostly) americans treat cheating as some assault on decency that has to be adjudicated in the public square always seemed a little backwards to me. I'll just back away from this thread though, since people are getting so worked up they're already asking for permabans.

 

[Bay Maximus]

To be honest I don't know much about Joss Whedon, but I've seen this story unfold countless times. It's always a shame when you recognize people you may look up to as the flawed individuals they are. But if this guy was as active in his feminism as people are saying, I'm not sure how his marital failings negate that.

I also get a chuckle at the amount of vitriol and hate cheaters get from third parties that aren't associated with the relationship at all. Apparently no one would cheat if they were a celebrity and temptation was everywhere. Their willpower is 100% at all times. One glance at US' obesity rates should put that fantasy to rest. I guess what I'm saying is it's hard to judge someone without being in their shoes, especially for circumstances that are so radically different than the ones we experience.

 

[ZealousD]

If a man cheats on his wife, is that anti-feminism?
If a woman cheats on her husband, is that anti-feminism?
If a lesbian cheats on her wife, is that anti-feminism?

Not defending him for cheating on his wife but if a man can have his feminism card revoked for doing something and a woman wouldn't have it revoked for doing the exact same thing, then I don't think feminism means what I think it means anymore.

 

[The Shadow]

No matter how much Joss Whedon thumps his chest and says he's a feminist, he's not a feminist.

You have this blog post, you have that Wonder Woman script, and then you have his cut backstory to Inara which is fucking nuts and pretty much a "nice guy" fantasy. The antithesis of feminist.

The Firefly Episode We're Really Glad Joss Whedon Didn't Get to Make

Really, the evidence is that he really, really, REALLY, wants people to believe he's a feminist, but he's not. There's a lot of "nice guys" that say they're feminists too, that they listen and they care, etc. They turn Hyde when they don't get a return though.

 

[themaskedndi]

No he didn't. He never punished a single character for sex.

Aside from Buffy/Angel, there is:

- Buffy being used for sex by "what's the difference between freshmen girls and toilet seats" Parker. She drowns her sorrows magic-laced beer, which turns her into a cavewoman.

- Buffy and Riley being compelled to have sex poltergeists, who use the power of their lust for haunted house shenanigans.

- Faith having sex with Riley in Buffy's body.

- The toxic and mutually abusive sexual relationship between Buffy and Spike, which leads to an attempted rape.

And that's just Buffy Summers. There's also stuff like Willow mindwiping Tara before the sex scene in OMWF, Tara being murdered after reconciliation sex with Willow, Buffy/Riley and Anya/Spike having their sexual encounters secretly broadcast, and a bunch of other moments I'm sure I'm forgetting.