Bobo Dakes
Member
She didn't say "he's not a feminist because he cheated on me". In fact, no one is really saying that.
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Kai Cole, Joss Whedon's Ex-Wife, calls him out as a 'Hypocrite Preaching Feminism'
- Thread starter Goodstyle
- Start date
She didn't say "he's not a feminist because he cheated on me". In fact, no one is really saying that.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
...Huh?
No, it's not just the fact that he cheated.
It's the fact that (if we believe the ex's account, and Whedon himself didn't seem inclined to deny it):
> He surrounded himself with women, and claimed it wasn't because he lusted after them but because he's "a feminist who respects women"
> He ends up lusting after them after all and refers to that as some sort of disease or curse (lol)
> He ends up sleeping with a number of them after all, and being a serial cheater, and shielded himself with his "I'm a feminist!" persona
That's what makes him a hypocrite, as well as a really shitty husband and human being.
Random Human
They were trying to grab your prize. They work for the mercenary. The masked man.
I guess the problem is that's a fansite for him, not just his work.
Consider me among the camp that believes infidelity is incredibly shitty behavior, particularly if it occurs as a result of someone in a position of influence leveraging that influence for sex, but it doesn't make someone not a feminist. Just a creep.
Huh? That is the whole point of what she's talking about: that he's a fake feminist because he cheated on his wife. If she weren't attacking his reputation as a feminist because of his infidelity, then why is his feminism brought up in the first place?
That is all gross behavior, but serial cheating and the mental gymnastics of trying to rationalize serial cheating =/= "I don't believe women are entitled to equal right as men."
Huh? That is the whole point of what she's talking about: that he's a fake feminist because he cheated on his wife. If she weren't attacking his reputation as a feminist because of his infidelity, then why is his feminism brought up in the first place?
That is all gross behavior, but serial cheating and the mental gymnastics of trying to rationalize serial cheating =/= "I don't believe women are entitled to equal right as men."
That anyone can even lift a finger to defend him is revolting. It doesn't matter how well he wrote your silly comic book movies, he hurt real people in real life and took advantage of an entire subset of people while doing it ("geeks"). Defending him is ridiculous at this point
No, he's a fake feminist because he literally abused the position that he was in to fuck women who he intentionally surrounded himself with.
This is the behavior of a predator. Why else would he during himself but these women and claim to be their ally, all the whole he never had any intentions other than "I'm the director and I'm gonna fuck anyone I want".
Joss is a sexual predator. Repeat after me.
That he cheated but it was entirely consentual with who he had the affairs. It makes him a cheater and that's really shitty but it doesn't discredit his work or the causes he has supported.
It's a he said she said and I am not going to 100% take the word of either of them but to 100% take his ex-wife word as fact is really problematic.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
None of this discredits his work but it's a real shitty feeling to know that he, allegedly, hurt a lot of women and abused his power to make that work happen.
The problematic part is that you'd rather sweep the victims under the rug and run with an idea that you made up completely instead of go off any of the statements made.
DasPenguin
Member
Shitty husband? Yes. Terrible human being? That might be a reach. A lot more goes to a person than that. Or do you consider JFK a shitty human being? I don't.
I'm not condoning cheating, but being famous can't be easy. The amount of temptation these people have on a daily basis is something none of us can comprehend. But you can be a terrible husband and still be a person who does a whole lot of good and helps others.
plagiarize
Banned
Fortunately we're well past the point where 'Look at this sexy young woman, who is working for a father figure to beat up evil dudes!' is seen as an improvement over how women are represented in media.
Representation isn't where it needs to be yet, but you can find stuff that does a much better job of it than Joss's shows did.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
We can start by hiring female directors and writers to do the job instead of always pointing to Whedon.
AuthenticM
Member
We don't know that.
People trying to separate out his possible abstract political positions from his behavior are missing the fact that for him to be a feminist in theory and to be a serial cheater abusing his position of power in practice makes him a hypocrite at best.
Being a feminist does not preclude ever cheating, necessarily, but cheating with actresses and fans, because youre a famous director? Now thats an abuse of power, an exactly the kind of abusive power releationship that feminism is deeply invested in undoing.
So, yes, he might sincerely believe in feminism, but these actions make him a rather intense hypocrite.
Being a feminist does not preclude ever cheating, necessarily, but cheating with actresses and fans, because youre a famous director? Now thats an abuse of power, an exactly the kind of abusive power releationship that feminism is deeply invested in undoing.
So, yes, he might sincerely believe in feminism, but these actions make him a rather intense hypocrite.
I can't imagine devoting hours of my life to debating if Joss Whedon is a good feminist in private or not.
He is probably a hypocrite. Plenty of people who logically know right from wrong are. I'm not comfortable with the paternalistic attitude it takes to tell a young woman who she should and should not be attracted to based on position or power. At the end of the day it's just not something that is ever gonna matter in my life. I dunno ya'll.
He is probably a hypocrite. Plenty of people who logically know right from wrong are. I'm not comfortable with the paternalistic attitude it takes to tell a young woman who she should and should not be attracted to based on position or power. At the end of the day it's just not something that is ever gonna matter in my life. I dunno ya'll.
One thing I'm learning from this scandal just from skimming through twitter:
Don't call yourself a feminist if you're a man. Just... don't. Women fucking hate guys that do. It comes off as self-aggrandizing and duplicitous, and I'm sure their experience can attest to that.
The stock answer I give if the issue of if I'm a feminist comes along is to say that I believe women deserve equal rights but I don't consider myself a feminist because I don't actively participate in the movement.
Don't call yourself a feminist if you're a man. Just... don't. Women fucking hate guys that do. It comes off as self-aggrandizing and duplicitous, and I'm sure their experience can attest to that.
The stock answer I give if the issue of if I'm a feminist comes along is to say that I believe women deserve equal rights but I don't consider myself a feminist because I don't actively participate in the movement.
Man Called Aerodynamics
Member
That's fair, and they have to make the decision that is right for them. I just think it's a really regrettable idea that we have to erase/ignore works of art if it turns out the artist is not a good person.
Inferno313
Banned
Yeah. Really fucking sucks that I'll never be able to see a copy of The Avengers again.
LordKasual
Banned
lol im done
If my girlfriend or any one of my female friends asked me if I'm a feminist and I said no but I support equal rights for women, they would all respond with, "But that's what feminism is!"
Where it kind of falls apart is when he claims he's not doing a thing specifically because he's a feminist, and then he is, in fact, doing that thing. He's not sleeping with all these attractive women he has power over, he's just a feminist! Except, oops, he is, and there's the description of the societal push "conquer and acquire" women sexually in explaining what was really going on, and it reads a lot less feminist.
I don't think he proactively wants to take rights away from women, but Whedon as Feminist Icon pops up a lot whenever something in his work seems unfortunate and problematic. And maybe what his ex wrote is a lie, or maybe there's some quotes she left out, but the entire power imbalance in the industry, the casting couch concept, and his being super aware that the women he suddenly had access to were available because of his position of power seems like something that should have given him pause. But instead of being a deterrent, he cites the power imbalance and the availability of women because of it as a primary motivating factor.
So for me the whole thing is largely in the shift in how Whedon's work is discussed; no more "Joss is a feminist!" passes. If his handling of a female character seems dated or a little ridiculous, he no longer gets spotted a few points because Avowed Feminist. It's not about cutting off access to his work--taken in context Buffy remains important for its time, although we've progressed since then--so much as just making it speak for itself.
Inferno313
Banned
Sarcasm. If that's not clear.
Man that is a blast from the past
Okay, I agree with this.
This...
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Really just be low key about it. Give more women places to do what they want and feel safe without directing attention to yourself. You can still say your a Feminist to someone that asks but don't be showy with it.
That's a good point.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
That's not mental gymnastics. Saying "I believe in equal rights between genders" and then exploiting and disrespecting women indeed makes one a bad feminist (at best). It's not rocket science.
Oh puh-fucking-lease. Poor celebs, how do they ever deal with having to be decent human beings? Wahhhh.
"I'm not condoning cheating, but" = this thread in a nutshell, it seems
Then you haven't fucking learned anything. Also, don't fucking speak for women.
Man Called Aerodynamics
Member
Cool comeback. I also plan to continue watching Whedon's work even if he is a jerk in real life.
Inferno313
Banned
Guess nothing's been erased then. Hmm.
Man Called Aerodynamics
Member
An outlet for discussion about his body of work is being shut down because of something that went on in his personal life. I just said that I find that unfortunate. I do realize that your BD of The Avengers has not been literally destroyed.
Among sins, IMO, Cheating is usually a misdemeanor, not a felony. There are too many great and important people throughout history, who contributed awesome things to society; people who changed the world for the better and were generally amazing human beings overall, who had the one basic character flaw that they couldn't keep their dick/vagina in their pants. And many of these people were in positions of power, too. Doesn't make them "shitty human beings" Just flawed and complicated folks like the rest of us. It's a common failing.
Sorry, but the self-righteousness on display in this thread is fucking breathtaking. "Don't judge others, lest ye be judged yourself," and all that.
Sorry, but the self-righteousness on display in this thread is fucking breathtaking. "Don't judge others, lest ye be judged yourself," and all that.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
This conversation is a lot deeper than just simple cheating.
Director who claims he's feminist exploits his being a famous director to cheat on his wife with actresses who work under him even though he should be well aware of the fucked up power-dynamics between actresses and their male directors which still persist because Hollywood is still a boy's club. To top it off he uses his reputation as a feminist to mislead his wife about the women he was meeting and secretly sleeping with and becoming a serial-cheater in the process.
He literally exploited his "feminism" to cheat on his wife.
GAF: Well just because he cheated doesn't mean he's not feminist.
He literally exploited his "feminism" to cheat on his wife.
GAF: Well just because he cheated doesn't mean he's not feminist.
Bobo Dakes
Member
I read it as "he's a fake feminist AND he cheated on me".
Do you genuinely believe Joss Whedon is one of those people? His indiscretion doesn't invalidate his work, but given his persona there's nothing wrong with saying you're disappointed in his actions. No one read this article and went "Okay, I hate Avengers now." At worst it was "Huh, this actually explains a few things I've seen in his work."
That's probably the better answer. Don't talk about it, just let women lead the way on the subject.
I'm not speaking for literally every woman, I'm just talking about a really common sentiment I've seen.
That happens here on GAF, too.
I know people keep pointing to the greek disease part but the most pertinent quote for me is this
This assertion from Whedon that his behavior was normal is echoed in the some of the responses in this very thread and it belies how he felt about his feminism: He thought it was extraordinary. He thought the fact that he held, espoused, and largely practiced these beliefs of fairness and equality for women was him doing a good thing and a right thing -- but also that it was beyond what should be expected of him. Him being a feminist wasn't his baseline, it was extra. So when he gave into temptation, repeatedly, and when he knew he was guilty but lied and was righteous in response ("As a guilty man I knew the only way to hide was to act as though I were righteous. And as a husband, I wanted to be with you like we had been. I lived two lives.), that was, to him, normal.
It looks familiar. It looks like chatlogs of guys trying to chat up women and then, after being ignored or brushed off or even politely turned down, immediately spew forth vile hate. It looks like white people responding to black protesters exasperated, saying things things like "I could have called you a n----r so many times."
If his reputation as a feminist should be challenged, it's not because of the fact that he was unfaithful. It's because of the methods of his infidelity and his justification for it.
This assertion from Whedon that his behavior was normal is echoed in the some of the responses in this very thread and it belies how he felt about his feminism: He thought it was extraordinary. He thought the fact that he held, espoused, and largely practiced these beliefs of fairness and equality for women was him doing a good thing and a right thing -- but also that it was beyond what should be expected of him. Him being a feminist wasn't his baseline, it was extra. So when he gave into temptation, repeatedly, and when he knew he was guilty but lied and was righteous in response ("As a guilty man I knew the only way to hide was to act as though I were righteous. And as a husband, I wanted to be with you like we had been. I lived two lives.), that was, to him, normal.
It looks familiar. It looks like chatlogs of guys trying to chat up women and then, after being ignored or brushed off or even politely turned down, immediately spew forth vile hate. It looks like white people responding to black protesters exasperated, saying things things like "I could have called you a n----r so many times."
If his reputation as a feminist should be challenged, it's not because of the fact that he was unfaithful. It's because of the methods of his infidelity and his justification for it.
Kinda part of the problem though. That's just letting assholes control things right?
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
It's mainly a lot of male Feminist don't realize they have more power and privilege over female Feminists. The balance becomes out of wack and the shift of power that was meant to uplift many women quickly uplifts one guy.
This sounds... condescending. It might just be better to say it's inappropriate for your working relationship and that you're married.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Err, the "gross behavior" he is accused of doing is the very kind of abuse of power and sexual predation that contributes to a society that perpetuates a status quo where women are effectively not entitled to equal rights as men.
That means he either doesn't really believe it and just pays it lip service, or he's another "do as I say not as I do" type of character.
Dash_Riprock
Member
I always knew what Mal said on Firefly about famous/great men would apply to Whedon himself...
Fuck this. I've never cheated, my brother's have never cheated, my parents have never cheated. And this isn't about cheating once, it's about serial cheating with those working under him, and FANS ffs
Yes people make mistakes, but are we not supposed to feel something in this situation? The gall to just brush this shit under the carpet is infuriating
(As a man) Never call yourself a feminist unless you have to
It's a super loaded term that has a lot of people immediately wary of your intentions. Nothing wrong with being a male feminist, just don't advertise it or people will think you're a PUA creep.
No.
He's been a huge influence on me personally as a writer, and I think he's had a big impact on modern television, but he's not one of the great men of our times or anything... But actually that wasn't quite my point...
I'm saying it's one thing to say the guy screwed up, or that he has a major character flaw, and another to jump all the way to describing him as a "shitty human being," seems like pure hyperbole based on the details from the report.
"Shitty human being" sounds like the person is irredeemable, a monster. "Shitty human being," should be reserved for the real pieces of shit in our society.
Agree to an extent with all of this. Not going to say he didn't show some failing here.
Audioboxer
Member
It's a joke about how every now and then some guy who needs to tell everyone they are a 'top male feminist' in their Twitter bio ends up getting egg on their face when their private life is unleashed for the world to see. The amount of people in life who preach one thing then succumb to their own standards (whether it's by choice or mistake) is unfathomable in statistical quantity because of the number of people who end up hypocrites about something in their life. Most everyday citizens enjoy the curtain of private life to keep their failings to themselves/close circles. I can say pretty easily nearly everyone posting in this topic has either been involved in, or know of others involved in messy relationships/breakups and cheating. Unless you share it up though it'll probably remain private, whereas with celebs there's very little that ever stays private.
All round Joss sounds like a dick for the pain he's caused his ex-wife, I said as much in my post. He should never have stayed married to her. If he wanted to be a single man who could have as many consenting sexual encounters as a single person can have... then he should have been divorced and single. Don't lead people on. If you want to have sex with someone new every week then be single (or in an open relationship, but yeah, good luck with one of those). No arguments there. One of the main reasons couples end up in therapy is to really find out if either truly wants to be with one and other. Many of the times one or both parties doesn't, but they struggle to let go even when one or both are hurting the other. Everyone should know even people in their 60s/70s+ get divorced after tens of years of marriage when they finally conclude they weren't right for each other. Work in marriage counselling, it's a right eye-opener. As an individual, if you don't want to be with someone, be honest, split and move on. Simple logic, but it's often not simple in practice for millions of people. Human beings are often terrible at communication and terrible about knowing what love actually is and whether or not they truly feel it.
You'll find many people in life will have dark moments or baggage to apologise for and live with, especially around relationships/sex, but they can still try to stand for and uphold equal rights and views. If political and social movements, viewpoints and discussion only have room for the purest of pure people, then that is where satire comes in to challenge that religious like stance. Joss is a hypocrite, but like all hypocrites, it's how they deal with and learn from what they've done wrong. That goes for males and females, as affairs and cheating aren't just carried out by one side. If the concept of feminism is to be treated as a membership club then what happens to any women who cheat/have affairs? Are they instantly not allowed to think men and women are equal? Lots of people think and say men and women are equal but they still go off and do dumb shit and make terrible mistakes with relationships and sexual selection. It doesn't mean they aren't assholes, most of them probably are and should apologise and try to better themselves, but it doesn't mean every asshole can't be a feminist due to some elementary "this is my club" approach to equality. Then again, actions speak louder than words and most people, even those who do wrong and make mistakes should be more focused on the life they live and the sum of all their parts than bickering about what political/social labels to stick to themselves (or have removed when others decide you can't have that label anymore).
Bad choice of words then, sorry. I didn't mean sex-negative but being pure of character without any faults/mistakes/baggage whatsoever.