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[LordKasual]

That's a whole lotta text you went out of your way to write just to defend someone who is a complete asshole. If Albert Einstein was a POS to his wife and was called out for it by the public, you'd defend him just because he was Albert Einstein, huh? Brave.

....yes, I would? His contribution to humanity will be with us until the day the human race goes extinct. I'm not defending his actions, i'm questioning why people think it's important to ridicule someone and their work for the actions of their private life, when it has nothing to do with their work.

I don't see what bravery has to do with this, i'm in no danger by caring or not caring, it's none of my business.

I've never been entirely on board with Whedon's brand of feminism, which always struck me as slightly dated, or maybe fetishistic. He writes a lot of "kick-ass" women, but a pretty high proportion of them are 90 pound models. A character like Game of Thrones' Brienne feels somehow more real and modern, and less exploitative, although I'd hardly hold up GoT as a perfect icon of feminism in general.

That said, I'm not sure I like the straight line being drawn between infidelity and feminist hypocrisy. If a woman cheats on her loving and faithful husband, she is not a misandrist. She is just a human being with flaws. The reverse is true as well.

Now, if and when the details come out, perhaps they will show that Whedon played upon his fame and power to coerce people into sex (this seems highly probable, to be honest). That would be hypocritical in the extreme. But if the facts are simply that he had consensual relationships with coworkers who were actually into him, it strikes me as mostly orthogonal to feminism. Bad person, though, and worthy of blame? Absolutely.

Gwendoline Christie is 6'3". She's a more realistic "kick-ass" woman on a pound for pound basis, but the vast majority of women are not 6'3" tall.

And I don't see how cheating is this "anti-feminist" thing when women are easily just as capable of cheating as men are. A man who cheats doesn't mean he disrespects women, or doesn't care about the things that self-proclaimed feminists stand for.

And even if some news came out that he was decidedly "not feminist", then I really wonder where that leaves his previous body of work that many women agree is a great example of female empowerment. Do we just take it back, and accept a net loss?

Furthermore, in what magical timeline of earth are people expecting to find some kind of hero that stands for their ideals but has NO history of slipups and no standing personality flaws?

 

[Fhtagn]

Dollhouse always seemed like meta-self-criticism; this information reinforces that. As if he knows rationally he’s being irresponsible and hypocritical but isn’t willing to do anything to address it.

 

[ZeoVGM]

I wonder how many of them drive by post in Gaf threads.

I've asked you twice in this thread to post a source for your earlier claim regarding Charisma Carpenter.

 

[BKatastrophe]

Yes but the episodes after have characters repeatedly tell Buffy - despite Buffy blaming herself - that she couldn't have known and that it's 100% his fault that he's going around killing people. It's a clear allegory for the woman blaming herself in an abusive relationship instead of the aggressor, demonstrated further by her hoping for awhile that he'd change back or become the man she loved before. The season finale ends with her accepting that's never going to happen and severing ties with him (in Buffy fashion, the metaphorical becoming literal with a sword).

The worst message you can take from it is that Buffy's mother chastizes her for sleeping with a guy she didn't really know, which isn't an anti-feminist message at all but rather cautionary and relevant for teenage sex in general.

Buffy and women in general are also hardly the only ones to suffer negative consequences from sex. Liam becomes Angelus because he was a womanizer and followed Darla into an alley for a hookup, for example.

Better worded than I.

Aside from Buffy/Angel, there is:

- Buffy being used for sex by "what's the difference between freshmen girls and toilet seats" Parker. She drowns her sorrows magic-laced beer, which turns her into a cavewoman.

- Buffy and Riley being compelled to have sex poltergeists, who use the power of their lust for haunted house shenanigans.

- Faith having sex with Riley in Buffy's body.

- The toxic and mutually abusive sexual relationship between Buffy and Spike, which leads to an attempted rape.

And that's just Buffy Summers. There's also stuff like Willow mindwiping Tara before the sex scene in OMWF, Tara being murdered after reconciliation sex with Willow, Buffy/Riley and Anya/Spike having their sexual encounters secretly broadcast, and a bunch of other moments I'm sure I'm forgetting.

Again, none of these are punishment. A negative consequence is not the same as a punishment.

-Parker was an asshole who used women all the time. Buffy fell for it. Again, not her fault. She's still a bit naive when it comes to relationships at that point, and Parker is an expert manipulator.
-The poltergeist scenario isn't really relevant. At all. It wasn't punshing Buffy and Riley. It was fucking with everyone else because of the sex they had, and then it's played off as a joke at the end of the episode. And yes, the psycho nun who punished "dirty" boys and girls? She punished everyone equivalently, but she didn't intentionally make the poltergeist. Buffy and Riley weren't punished for sex, they just happened to bang in a haunted house.
-Faith raping Riley is punishing Buffy for sex? How?
-Spike and Buffy is mutually abusive. Buffy knew exactly what she was doing and Spike knew exactly what he was doing. Spike is a monster and Buffy played with fire expecting not to get burnt.

None of these are valid as "punishment for sex."

 

[King Tubby]

Feminism means you can't cheat now? I think I'm out, y'all

 

[bachikarn]

That's a whole lotta text you went out of your way to write just to defend someone who is a complete asshole. If Albert Einstein was a POS to his wife and was called out for it by the public, you'd defend him just because he was Albert Einstein, huh? Brave.

I'm not sure if you bringing up Einstein was intentional or not but Einstein did cheat on his wife (with his cousin). He eventually divorced her and married his mistress cousin. He also thought cheating was not a big deal for men and women

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/genius/articles/albert-einsteins-theory-of-infidelity/

 

[BronsonLee]

I'm not sure if you bringing up Einstein was intentional or not but Einstein did cheat on his wife (with his cousin). He eventually divorced her and married his mistress cousin. He also thought cheating was not a big deal for men and women

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/genius/articles/albert-einsteins-theory-of-infidelity/

 

[DeathyBoy]

I've asked you twice in this thread to post a source for your earlier claim regarding Charisma Carpenter.

http://forums.denden.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=188732

Spoiler

they wanted me to be in it, and I didn't want to come back because of how that all went down. I didn't feel good about it. But I knew that you, the fans, needed closure, so I decided to do it. But I was very concerned about it. And I said "I don't just want to go back to die." So we decided all this other stuff and I signed the dotted line, then I found out that they were going to kill me, and I started crying. I had this conversation with Jeffery Bell and I was working on another project that was on the same lot as WhedonWorld or BuffyWorld, and he said to me 'Listen, I have this really difficult thing I need to tell you, but I know we said that you weren't going to die, but you're gonna die.' And I started bawling and I said 'I knew that you were going to do this to me, why did I agree to this?' and I felt totally betrayed.

 

[plagiarize]

Feminism means you can't cheat now? I think I'm out, y'all

No feminist would use their position to fuck a bunch of young actresses, crew members, and fans while married. You don't treat women like disposable fuck toys if you're a feminist.

If you fall in love with someone else and cheat on your spouse? You can still be a feminist. That is 100% not what Joss Whedon was doing all these years.

 

[ZeoVGM]

http://forums.denden.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=188732

they wanted me to be in it, and I didn't want to come back because of how that all went down. I didn't feel good about it. But I knew that you, the fans, needed closure, so I decided to do it. But I was very concerned about it. And I said "I don't just want to go back to die." So we decided all this other stuff and I signed the dotted line, then I found out that they were going to kill me, and I started crying. I had this conversation with Jeffery Bell and I was working on another project that was on the same lot as WhedonWorld or BuffyWorld, and he said to me 'Listen, I have this really difficult thing I need to tell you, but I know we said that you weren't going to die, but you're gonna die.' And I started bawling and I said 'I knew that you were going to do this to me, why did I agree to this?' and I felt totally betrayed.

Thank you for posting. However, for some reason you left out the very next sentence in your quote:

And I said "Well, let me hear the story" and he said "Its special." and I said 'Well let me hear it.' and I heard it and i was like, 'Ugh, Joss is good. He is just so good.'

 

[Principate]

I'm not sure if you bringing up Einstein was intentional or not but Einstein did cheat on his wife (with his cousin). He eventually divorced her and married his mistress cousin. He also thought cheating was not a big deal for men and women

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/genius/articles/albert-einsteins-theory-of-infidelity/

I did not know about cousin fucking Einstein.

In fact I did not need to know. Why did I continue to read this thread....

 

[inky]

Is Einstein your milkshake goose now Bronson?

 

[themaskedndi]

Again, none of these are punishment. A negative consequence is not the same as a punishment.

When people say that characters are punished for sex, they do not mean that the characters are arrested by the sex police and thrown into sex jail. They mean that the characters have suffering inflicted on them after having sex.

The poltergeist scenario isn't really relevant. At all. It wasn't punshing Buffy and Riley. It was fucking with everyone else because of the sex they had, and then it's played off as a joke at the end of the episode. And yes, the psycho nun who punished "dirty" boys and girls? She punished everyone equivalently, but she didn't intentionally make the poltergeist. Buffy and Riley weren't punished for sex, they just happened to bang in a haunted house.

I think you are misremembering the episode. Buffy and Riley don't just happen to have sex in a haunted house. They are being influenced by the poltergeists to have sex over and over and over again while ignoring everything else. If the other characters had not intervened, they would have literally banged to death.

And yes, there's a joke at the end of the episode that implies that Buffy and Riley were pretty okay with it, but the show is still having Buffy release ghosts that harm people (like that girl that was forced to cut off all of her hair) when she has pleasurable sex. This is the first time that Buffy gets to have an actual sexual relationship with someone (and the only time it is remotely healthy.

-Faith raping Riley is punishing Buffy for sex? How?

Buffy's body and her consensual sexual relationship with Riley is used as a weapon against both of them. The only healthy sexual relationship that Buffy ever has on the show still involves her body being used without her consent.

-Spike and Buffy is mutually abusive. Buffy knew exactly what she was doing and Spike knew exactly what he was doing. Spike is a monster and Buffy played with fire expecting not to get burnt.

None of these are valid as "punishment for sex."

Really hope you aren't blaming Buffy for Spike trying to rape her.

 

[JohnDoe]

If you already have a dodgy history on your feminism in your works and then repeatedly cheat on your wife with actresses working under you, you are most likely a really shitty feminist. How people in this thread claim that that is such an outrageous angle is puzzling.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Thank you for posting. However, for some reason you left out the very next sentence in your quote:

I left it out because it's inclusion doesn't justify outright lying to her to get her to do the episode.

 

[Wazzy]

I'm always going to love Joss Whedons work(well particularly Buffy, Angel, Firefly and Avengers) but he's a piece of shit for what he did and it's disappointing watching people try their best to defend him just because they love his work. He's already a shitty person for cheating. Using his power over fans, actresses and friends makes him even worse and absolutely makes him a hypocrite on being a feminist

I know people want to get up in arms over thinking people are discrediting him over the cheating(it's over the abuse of power) but it's a little pathetic to watch people go hard over that. You're still complete scum if you cheat.

 

[JohnDoe]

Unless Whedon has preached fidelity as a form of feminism, this doesn't make him a hypocrite. It's like a vegetarian who eats fish. You can consider them a bad vegetarian, but it doesn't make them a hypocrite unless they preached a vegetarianism that doesn't allow eating fish.

No. That makes them a pescetarian.

 

[RumbleHumble]

I can believe Whedon's kinda a shitty person while still enjoying his work. That quote about being "cursed" is just all kinds of fucking dumb and reeks of "Casting Couch" in the worst way. And if you read his Wonder Woman script, it gets even worse.

 

[harriet the spy]

That's a whole lotta text you went out of your way to write just to defend someone who is a complete asshole. If Albert Einstein was a POS to his wife and was called out for it by the public, you'd defend him just because he was Albert Einstein, huh? Brave.

Side note Einstein kind of abandoned one of his kids iirc so he kind of was an asshole
Edit: beaten on the asshole bit, though for a different reason

 

[Kyuur]

The only thing here that stands out to me as hypocritical would be his position of power over women he had relations with. That is assuming the worst of course, because nothing in the article actually corroborates any wrongdoing in that regard.

If the thoughts striking your head right now is that "nobody's perfect" and "he wrote good shows tho" with regards to a serial cheater who endangered his wife and gave her ptsd, then you need to seriously reexamine the shit in your head

Nearly everyone I know has divorced, cheating parents who at some point caused grief and pain for their loved ones. I don't think they're monsters and I'm fairly close to a lot of them, so I'm certainly not going to hate this guy for it.

No feminist would use their position to fuck a bunch of young actresses, crew members, and fans while married. You don't treat women like disposable fuck toys if you're a feminist.

If you fall in love with someone else and cheat on your spouse? You can still be a feminist. That is 100% not what Joss Whedon was doing all these years.

I haven't heard of feminism condemning one-night stands. The opposite actually, it frees women to have sex outside of committed relationships without being shamed for it, from my understanding.

 

[ZeoVGM]

I left it out because it's inclusion doesn't justify outright lying to her to get her to do the episode.

Except you're assuming the writing team (which isn't just Joss, by the way, as he didn't even write the episode) purposefully lied to her when asking her to come back. The episode wouldn't have even been written yet at that point.

Things change in the writer's room. And I'm sorry, writers don't owe story line decisions to actors. They have to go where the story brings them and the decision they made with Charisma was the correct choice.

You're turning it into some nefarious thing specifically to paint Joss as a bad guy when you have no idea how that conversation (which may not have even been with Joss himself as David Fury was just as important as Joss that season, if not more so, in the decision making). And she was giving interviews back in 2004 where she said that she loved how her character's arc ended.

 

[Salty Rice]

No feminist would use their position to fuck a bunch of young actresses, crew members, and fans while married. You don't treat women like disposable fuck toys if you're a feminist.

Who said that this is the case?

Also u can have sex with a lot of women and still be a feminist and have respect for them.

Feminism doesnt include being a good boy and going to church every sunday.

 

[kswiston]

Side note Einstein kind of abandoned one of his kids iirc so he kind of was an asshole
Edit: beaten on the asshole bit, though for a different reason

Not everyone can be Charles Darwin

 

[King Tubby]

No feminist would use their position to fuck a bunch of young actresses, crew members, and fans while married. You don't treat women like disposable fuck toys if you're a feminist.

If you fall in love with someone else and cheat on your spouse? You can still be a feminist. That is 100% not what Joss Whedon was doing all these years.

I was being a bit flippant with my post, but you're right, I totally agree with all that. In the context of being in a position of power and exploiting it for sexual gratification, that's not okay.

 

[plagiarize]

Who said that this is the case?

Also u can have sex with a lot of women and still be a feminist and have respect for them.

Feminism doesnt include being a good boy and going to church every sunday.

Joss said he didn't love the women he slept with. Joss said he used his position of power to sleep with the women.

Anyone who thinks there isn't a contradiction here is overlooking the manipulation from a position of power aspect of this. You don't do that to people you think are your *equal*.

 

[Doc_Drop]

Also u can have sex with a lot of women and still be a feminist and have respect for them.

Feminism doesnt include being a good boy and going to church every sunday.

Whilst married and whilst lying and disrespecting his wife for of 15 years?

Why not actually address the infidelity and actually be honest with her and either work through it together or get a divorce?

 

[DeathyBoy]

Except you're assuming the writing team (which isn't just Joss, by the way, as he didn't even write the episode) purposefully lied to her when asking her to come back. The episode wouldn't have even been written yet at that point.

Things change in the writer's room. And I'm sorry, writers don't owe story line decisions to actors. They have to go where the story brings them and the decision they made with Charisma was the correct choice.

You're turning it into some nefarious thing specifically to paint Joss as a bad guy when you have no idea how that conversation (which may not have even been with Joss himself as David Fury was just as important as Joss that season, if not more so, in the decision making). And she was giving interviews back in 2004 where she said that she loved how her character's arc ended.

I mean it's not ambiguous - she said she'd come back with one condition. They assured her they'd meet it. When she was contractually bound, suddenly her condition wasn't met.

 

[obeast]

Joss said he didn't love the women he slept with. Joss said he used his position of power to sleep with the women.

Anyone who thinks there isn't a contradiction here is overlooking the manipulation from a position of power aspect of this. You don't do that to people you think are your *equal*.

Do what, though? The quote I read could mean that he pressured women into, essentially, exchanging sex for professional advancement ("sleep with me and I'll give you that role"). That would be difficult to square with an alleged feminist leaning.

But it could just as easily mean that he was suddenly more appealing to women he wouldn't have had a chance with earlier because he was powerful and famous, and that he had consensual relationships with adult women. That's an awful thing to do to his wife, but it's not anti-feminist on its face.

The quote in question (I may be missing some other statements that are more definitive):

”When I was running ‘Buffy,' I was surrounded by beautiful, needy, aggressive young women. It felt like I had a disease, like something from a Greek myth. Suddenly I am a powerful producer and the world is laid out at my feet and I can't touch it."

Either way, he's a jerk, and if I were his wife I'd be just as angry as she seems to be.

 

[family_guy]

Having sex with women way younger than you that you hold a position of power over makes you a creep, and pretty anti-feminist.

At what point are people able to make their own choices like adults? Isn't it a bit anti-feminist to claim these women couldn't have slept with Joss of their own volition? For all we know some of them could have initiated it. Maybe he didn't actively use his position of power to do anything. Maybe they were naturally attracted to him because of his power. Power is attractive to many people. Call him a creep for cheating on his wife if that's what happened, but they are consenting adults. If it was a case of, "Sleep with me or your fired", then that's a different story.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

now that you mention it I can see inserts in many characters for Whedon.

Angel: He can't be really happy, loves a person from afar and wants to be with her, but he really can't cause he'll turn evil.

Spike: Lusts over the main character, but he's a monster so there's some conflict there, she knows he's a monster but wants him anyway.

 

[GhaleonEB]

At what point are people able to make their own choices like adults? Isn't it a bit anti-feminist to claim these women couldn't have slept with Joss of their own volition? For all we know some of them could have initiated it. Maybe he didn't actively use his position of power to do anything. Maybe they were naturally attracted to him because of his power. Power is attractive to many people. Call him a creep for cheating on his wife if that's what happened, but they are consenting adults. If it was a case of, "Sleep with me or your fired", then that's a different story.

I don't think we should discount the power disparity between men and women in Hollywood. To your bold, that would be pretty much impossible to separate given he slept with people involved with the production. It would be there whether he thought he was using it or not.

 

[Nekofrog]

People are defending someone who used his money, power, and position to leverage sex from women. This speaks to an evil level of manipulation of trump standards.

Bye joss

 

[BronsonLee]

Is Einstein your milkshake goose now Bronson?

He is my sworn enemy

 

[ZeoVGM]

I mean it's not ambiguous - she said she'd come back with one condition. They assured her they'd meet it. When she was contractually bound, suddenly her condition wasn't met.

Yes, when they started writing the episode they changed their mind. And she ended up being happy with it. She likely didn't want to be killed off like Anya or Tara. Instead, they gave her likely the most meaningful death in any Whedon show.

She was happy with their decision. She said she cried reading the script because of how well done it was. If you want to attack Joss, stick to the claim from his ex-wife. Don't try to go to unrelated instances where he wasn't even the lone decision maker. Jeffrey Bell told her she was dying, David Fury wrote the episode and it VERY likely was not Joss that originally told her she wouldn't die.

 

[Lothars]

People are defending someone who used his money, power, and position to leverage sex from women. This speaks to an evil level of manipulation of trump standards.

Bye joss

No most people are trying to get the whole story. His Wife's account is not the whole story. It's her biased account.

Did he cheat? Yes is it a shitty thing to do? absolutely Does it make his pure evil and not a feminist? No not at all.

 

[Nekofrog]

No most people are trying to get the whole story. His Wife's account is not the whole story. It's her biased account.

Did he cheat? Yes is it a shitty thing to do? absolutely Does it make his pure evil and not a feminist? No not at all.

What is the other side of the story? He fell and his dick landed into actresses and fans repeatedly?

 

[Man Called Aerodynamics]

What does infidelity have to do with feminism?

That's kinda where I am... Cheating on his wife might make him a major asshole, but I don't think it precludes someone from being a feminist?

 

[Exodust]

I like Joss Whedon's shows(except for Firefly, for whatever reason) but he's always been like that, so it doesn't exactly come as a shock to me.

You guys should realize that the "male feminist" is the same as the "nice guy". It's men appropriating women's rights in a vain attempt to get laid. All us men should listen to women and understand their problems, definitely. But any dude who is quick to mention he's a feminist or brings it up often tends to have an agenda behind it. When it comes to feminist issues we should always listen to women, not men presenting themselves as their ambassadors.

 

[plagiarize]

No most people are trying to get the whole story. His Wife's account is not the whole story. It's her biased account.

Did he cheat? Yes is it a shitty thing to do? absolutely Does it make his pure evil and not a feminist? No not at all.

I find it difficult to resolve someone objectifying women and being a feminist. Then you have the issue of power imbalance, which... the nicest thing you can say there is that 'maybe he didn't know he was putting pressure on women to have sex with him'.

But if so... I'm still not sure how he can be much of a feminist and fail to spot something like that.

 

[Shoeless]

now that you mention it I can see inserts in many characters for Whedon.

Angel: He can't be really happy, loves a person from afar and wants to be with her, but he really can't cause he'll turn evil.

Spike: Lusts over the main character, but he's a monster so there's some conflict there, she knows he's a monster but wants him anyway.

That is a neat, incisive little look at some of the characterization process. I don't know whether it's true or not, but it's a nice catch to make note of that, and it does make sense.

 

[Nekofrog]

Using your wealth and power to influence those in a lesser position than you to coerce them into sex is one of the first things a misogynist would do with his wealth and power.

 

[Aiustis]

I never thought of him as anything other than typical nerd guy creating women of his fantasy.

 

[OneEightZero]

In response to Kai's letter, Whedonesque is shutting down it's fansite after 15 years reporting on all things Joss.

So farewell then. 15 years is a long time and a lot of water has flowed under the bridge. But now it's time to say goodbye. No more threads after this one, we're closing down. The site will at some stage become a read only site. So if you want to leave your contact details in this thread for other posters to get in touch that would be great otherwise email us at whedonesque@gmail.com.

The admins would like to thank the posters at this site. You made this site and we wouldn't have lasted as long as we could without you. So thank you. And if you want to mark our passing, please find a charity or organisation that deals with the treatment of Complex post-traumatic stress disorder (C-PTSD) and leave a donation.

 

[Ri'Orius]

People are defending someone who used his money, power, and position to leverage sex from women. This speaks to an evil level of manipulation of trump standards.

Bye joss

You honestly don't see a distinction between "women are throwing themselves at me" and "I can do anything I want and get away with it"?

 

[Ralemont]

- Buffy being used for sex by "what's the difference between freshmen girls and toilet seats" Parker. She drowns her sorrows magic-laced beer, which turns her into a cavewoman.

Sorry but this is only anti-feminist if we are supposed to believe Parker was justified in his beliefs or something. And beer has nothing to do with feminism here.

 

[Nekofrog]

You honestly don't see a distinction between "women are throwing themselves at me" and "I can do anything I want and get away with it"?

When he is in the position of power over potential employees/coworkers there is a very real and very horrifying reality that even people who outwardly appear to be an ally are actually wolves in sheep's clothing.

 

[Man Called Aerodynamics]

In response to Kai's letter, Whedonesque is shutting down it's fansite after 15 years reporting on all things Joss.

I find that a little sad. Even if Joss Whedon fails to be a good role model or even a good person, the things that are worthwhile about his work aren't negated by that. But I guess that is the call they feel they need to make.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I don't think we should discount the power disparity between men and women in Hollywood. To your bold, that would be pretty much impossible to separate given he slept with people involved with the production. It would be there whether he thought he was using it or not.

How would it be impossible? If the women came onto him, not for any sort of career benefit, but simply because they saw a guy in a position of power and that attracted them, that's a scenario where he didn't actively abuse his position.

Some of you are making this bizarrely black and white. People shack up all the time for a variety of reasons. Someone sleeping/having an affair with their boss or superior isn't solely because they want some benefit out of it, or because they were coerced and bosses doing the same with people below them isn't always through abuse of their power. These things can just happen when you're working in a close knit environment, such as a TV production, and people interact with one another

 

[family_guy]

I don't think we should discount the power disparity between men and women in Hollywood. To your bold, that would be pretty much impossible to separate given he slept with people involved with the production. It would be there whether he thought he was using it or not.

Okay, but it's not impossible that the women knew what they were doing. It's not impossible that maybe Joss and these women were using each other. We have to respect that they can make their own decisions.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

I like Joss Whedon's shows(except for Firefly, for whatever reason) but he's always been like that, so it doesn't exactly come as a shock to me.

You guys should realize that the "male feminist" is the same as the "nice guy". It's men appropriating women's rights in a vain attempt to get laid. All us men should listen to women and understand their problems, definitely. But any dude who is quick to mention he's a feminist or brings it up often tends to have an agenda behind it. When it comes to feminist issues we should always listen to women, not men presenting themselves as their ambassadors.

It's slowly becoming that. There's been a lot of guys who try to own Feminism and wear that label proudly to hide some shitty things they did.