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[sonycowboy]

I suppose you're gonna tell me that PS2 hardware is making a profit now too The investment they put into these plants is billions of dollars. They won't make this money back for a long time.

I guess they're fooling all of those investors by posting all that profit over the past 4 years. The losses are under the rug never to be found again.

It's ENRON all over again.

LOL. Is it so hard to say that Sony is your daddy?

Johnny, Sony fanboys don't want to hear about things like "math" and "numbers" and "profit margins." PS2 has sold an incredible lot of systems! It must be profitable! PSP is also going to sell a lot of systems! Therefore, it too will be profitable!


Except that Sony hasn't turned a profit.

Can your stream of BS be turned off long enough to give us any "numbers" or "math" lessons? I think it's incredibly arrogant and a bit retarded to try and talk down to many of the members here. Some of us have a pretty healthy business background and have followed this industry pretty closely. There hasn't been any credible argument ever put out that would lead me to believe that Sony is losing money on the PS2 or that the PSP is going to break the bank at it's listed price.

If you can give us anything of any consequence great, or else shut your pie hole as your regurgitating the same crap we've heard forever. Put up or shut up.

 

[Mrbob]

Sony hasn't turned a profit on PSone and PS2? What?

PSP isn't even out yet. C'mon don't be such a drama queen.

Kuturagi needs to go on one of those informercial commercials.

"ALL THIS FOR ONE LOW PRICE?! HOW CAN YOU DO SUCH A THING? IT'S CRAZY! CRAAAAAAAAAAZZZZZZYYYY!"

 

[Memles]

This is a strike directly at Pikachu. The profit margins and high sales they enjoyed with Pokemon are in jeopardy b/c of the PSP now. Pokemon may have kept them going before when they had no competition in the handheld market and could just pump out one sequel after another, but it's gonna be a lot different now. But besides the point, Pokemon still needs a large userbase to sell to. At some point, GB and GBA sales will hit a ceiling, and then what will they do? Nintendo has to hope the DS can compete with the PSP, b/c if not, there goes their last source of revenue. The PSP is gonna put the GB and GBA out to pasture. Fucking Nintendo slept on the handheld market too. This is just a repeat of the mistakes they made in the console market. PEACE.

...

I...

Just...

I mean...

Fuck, I can't even reply to this.

In short...Pokemon CREATES usebases, it doesn't need them. The DS will have no problem competing with the PSP because of the fact that Sony's choice to offer a more technology based product will market themselves out of the kids market, which is the majority of the handheld market at this point. Nintendo has time, in NA, to develop the DS into an older base system...in Japan they won't have the time, so Pokemon Dash is coming at launch.

The simple thought of this killing the GBA is idiotic hyperbole aimed at being nothing but a troll; even the most diehard Sony nuts will admit that this won't destroy Nintendo's handheld market. Like, fuck, get your head out of your ass.

By the same accord, any Nintendo fan who doesn't admit this will hurt Nintendo is also a delusional idiot.

 

[borghe]

Sony was, by their own addmission, taking a bath on the PS2 hardware at launch. Where things evened out were the software sales and more importantly, accessory sales (releasing TTT as a launch title was genius on their part).

There is no one in their right mind who can believe that Sony isn't taking steep losses on this unit at this price. HOWEVER, unlike MS, they won't be so steep that they won't ever make a profit this gen AND sony stands to make money back on, you guessed it, games and accessories.

Do you really think the stuff in the premium bundle costs sony $50 to make? Neither do I.

I still like the DS better. built in wifi, touch screen, dual screens, etc.. BUT, I would be lying if I said I wasn't going to pick up a PSP at this price.

 

[JackFrost2012]

Put up or shut up.

I'll shut up, then. I don't really care enough to argue with you.

 

[Brofist]

Do you really think the stuff in the premium bundle costs sony $50 to make? Neither do I..

Why do people keep saying this. No fucking shit it doesn't cost them $50 to make what's in the bundle. You expect them to break even or take a loss for no reason on a premium pack as well. They don't like us that much hehe..

I think the question is more how much those items would cost at retail. In that regard $50 doesn't seem so bad for what you get.

 

[borghe]

sigh.. you completely miss my intended tone. I was saying THAT is where sony will make up for losses... nothing more.

though I do counter that that stuff would probably cost less at retail. Well, not from sony, but you will find equatable products from other manufacturers for much cheaper.

 

[Hans]

During that crazy DS announcement night, a Nintendo hosted image was up (if hidden) with a 10,000y price and different release date.

Image Mirror

 

[Brofist]

sigh.. you completely miss my intended tone. I was saying THAT is where sony will make up for losses... nothing more.

though I do counter that that stuff would probably cost less at retail. Well, not from sony, but you will find equatable products from other manufacturers for much cheaper.

i see what you mean.

there were many responses that made it seem as though you'd have to be a complete sheep to buy the premium pack, and I think it's not a half bad deal.

 

[Bebpo]

Image Mirror

Wow, I had forgotten the date was that early. Yea ummm, I don't think that's even possible at this point in terms of making the date even if they wanted too. But I think the price drop can & will happen IMO.

 

[Crazymoogle]

I guess they're fooling all of those investors by posting all that profit over the past 4 years. The losses are under the rug never to be found again.

Profit = software.

Every current player in the industry has, at one time or another, taken a hit per hardware unit because they know they can make it back and more on software first, and volume later. Sony gets a cut on every game manufactured let alone sent to market (for their platforms, obviously).

Furthermore, Sony is not a single-tooth business. Every time their PS2 sales go through the roof, every time they get their cut on Spiderman movie merchandising, every time they sell a walkman that has long since passed into profitability, they also create a financial stream they can use to leverage costs incurred elsewhere.

What surprises me is that Sony is willing to take another financial hit under their wing (considering how big CELL and BluRay are in the overall scheme of things). Ken is a smart guy, but I think this finally reflects why he got his latest job: because SCE is going to eventually dominate this company.

Now then, since that's been said, can you please stop trying to put words in my mouth and talking like Jackfrost just insulted your mother? Sheesh.

 

[Bebpo]

One major difference in terms of Sony/MS comparisons is that Sony has a good handful of 1st party titles that are around million seller level. For first party MS has Halo turning them some good money, but not that much else. So it seems to me that even if Sony is taking MS level of a hit on PSP, they have the software to recover from it much quicker than MS.

 

[Fafalada]

I disagree: their 65 nm process should be on-line way before mid-2006.

The only way move to 65nm would make unit that supposedly costs 500$ to make right now, profitable - is if their yields are real atrocious right now. And if that's the case, then the PSTwo will obviously be sold at massive losses too, after all it's the same process with even more complex chips...

I'm not gonna pretend that I know what it costs to make the thing, but damn, for 500$ a pop you could use off the shelf parts to get a comparable spec machine.

 

[Pimpwerx]

...

I...

Just...

I mean...

Fuck, I can't even reply to this.

In short...Pokemon CREATES usebases, it doesn't need them. The DS will have no problem competing with the PSP because of the fact that Sony's choice to offer a more technology based product will market themselves out of the kids market, which is the majority of the handheld market at this point. Nintendo has time, in NA, to develop the DS into an older base system...in Japan they won't have the time, so Pokemon Dash is coming at launch.

The simple thought of this killing the GBA is idiotic hyperbole aimed at being nothing but a troll; even the most diehard Sony nuts will admit that this won't destroy Nintendo's handheld market. Like, fuck, get your head out of your ass.

By the same accord, any Nintendo fan who doesn't admit this will hurt Nintendo is also a delusional idiot.

No? If Pokemon creates userbases, why didn't Nintendo make one for the GC? The GB and GBA enjoy great userbases, which in-turn created the phenomenon we know as Pokemon. GB sales were well in the stratosphere before Pokemon ever came out. I say this b/c my GC hasn't gotten a single useful Pokemon game yet, and the userbase is halfway to dead. If Pokemon has this much clout on its own, I'd like to know what Nintendo is holding back for. It's not the full picture. The PSP won't kill Pokemon's market value, but it will hurt the vessel it uses to reach the consumer. How long do you expect Nintendo to ride GB and GBA ports in the face of a $200 all-in-wonder like the PSP? I think it's DS or die for them now. The GBA's time is almost up. PEACE.

 

[kiryogi]

No? If Pokemon creates userbases, why didn't Nintendo make one for the GC? The GB and GBA enjoy great userbases, which in-turn created the phenomenon we know as Pokemon. GB sales were well in the stratosphere before Pokemon ever came out. I say this b/c my GC hasn't gotten a single useful Pokemon game yet, and the userbase is halfway to dead. If Pokemon has this much clout on its own, I'd like to know what Nintendo is holding back for. It's not the full picture. The PSP won't kill Pokemon's market value, but it will hurt the vessel it uses to reach the consumer. How long do you expect Nintendo to ride GB and GBA ports in the face of a $200 all-in-wonder like the PSP? I think it's DS or die for them now. The GBA's time is almost up. PEACE.

Eh, main Pokemon games will probably always be handheld for portablilty and trading reasons. You can't expect a million consoles at a gathering (IE the recent Pokemon Rocks America) now can you? Also to note, sales of LG/FR/Emerald indicate really healthy interest still. They are really solid games XD

 

[borghe]

I do agree that the GBA's time is over in light of this. I mean, not tomorrow, but by a year from now GBA will be a thing of the past.

Though I disagree that the PSP will clobber DS just based on power. The video game industry is FULL of lesser powered systems beating greater powered systems (NES vs. SMS, SNES vs. Genesis, Gameboy vs. every other handheld, PS1 vs. N64, PS2 vs. GCN/XBox)

I do think Nintendo will have to ride out DS and basically knock off this crap about "DS is not replacing GBA". Just announce that GBA is dead, DS is the successor, and DSSP will be capable of playing games somewhere between N64 and DC.

 

[Crazymoogle]

Eh, main Pokemon games will probably always be handheld for portablilty and trading reasons. You can't expect a million consoles at a gathering (IE the recent Pokemon Rocks America) now can you? Also to note, sales of LG/FR/Emerald indicate really healthy interest still. They are really solid games XD

One of the prima guides that came out recently backs your first comment up in writing, actually. I'm not entirely sure where I stand on it, but the guy at Gamefreaks seemed pretty adamant that without the social, trading nature of the platform, it wouldn't make sense to create the same kind of pokemon game.

 

[jarrod]

The GB and GBA enjoy great userbases, which in-turn created the phenomenon we know as Pokemon. GB sales were well in the stratosphere before Pokemon ever came out.

Actually, you've got it completely wrong. Pokemon saved GB from the brink of death in 1995... it utterly revitalized sales so much Nintendo decided to issue a redesign (Game Boy Pocket) and shift resources back over to GB R&D. Really, one could say Pokemon is almost single handedly responible for today's gigantic Game Boy market.

 

[sohka88]

I'll shut up, then. I don't really care enough to argue with you.

lol... poor guy

 

[Duckhuntdog]

DS IS DOOMED!!!!

 

[Memles]

Actually, you've got it completely wrong. Pokemon saved GB from the brink of death in 1995... it utterly revitalized sales so much Nintendo decided to issue a redesign (Game Boy Pocket) and shift resources back over to GB R&D. Really, one could say Pokemon is almost single handedly responible for today's gigantic Game Boy market.

Exactly. How quickly one forgets positive aspects of a company in a time like this.

 

[Spiritreaver]

Eh, main Pokemon games will probably always be handheld for portablilty and trading reasons. You can't expect a million consoles at a gathering (IE the recent Pokemon Rocks America) now can you? Also to note, sales of LG/FR/Emerald indicate really healthy interest still. They are really solid games XD

Ugh exactly, this is what I've posted quite a few times but I don't think anyone has actually taken it with any reason, you first statement I mean. There's even an interview on IGN stating exactly this from the developers. Pokemon on a console does not encourage kids to go out trading, battling, and making friends whether it be at school, on th eplayground, or whatever else. I really don't think the success can be replicated for the console sense. It's possible with an online game, but then it just wouldn't be Pokemon.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

DS IS DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED!!!!!!

 

[Meier]

I dont know how anyone could compare the PSP to the iPod. 32 mb memory stick is enough for what... 10 songs? The iPod can store 5,000-10,000. Even a massive 512 mb memory stick would still only be about 150 songs at most. There's no comparison to be made.

 

[cybamerc]

you're forgetting all the profit they'll make off the games until the PSP hardware is profitable

Which isn't that much. This is not Nintendo, most of the games sold for PSP will be 3. party published.

 

[kaching]

I dont know how anyone could compare the PSP to the iPod. 32 mb memory stick is enough for what... 10 songs? The iPod can store 5,000-10,000. Even a massive 512 mb memory stick would still only be about 150 songs at most. There's no comparison to be made.

It wasn't meant to be a direct feature-for-feature comparison. It was certainly meant to identify the PSP with a currently hot-selling portable device that is considered cool, while highlighting the fact that the PSP is more versatile but not as pricey.

 

[Kiriku]

I dont know how anyone could compare the PSP to the iPod. 32 mb memory stick is enough for what... 10 songs? The iPod can store 5,000-10,000. Even a massive 512 mb memory stick would still only be about 150 songs at most. There's no comparison to be made.

I never really got the point with having 5000-10000 songs. I can't imagine ever feeling the need to carry 5000 songs with me while being on the move. It just seems like overkill. Maybe I won't realize my need for an iPod until I buy one.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Actually, you've got it completely wrong. Pokemon saved GB from the brink of death in 1995... it utterly revitalized sales so much Nintendo decided to issue a redesign (Game Boy Pocket) and shift resources back over to GB R&D. Really, one could say Pokemon is almost single handedly responible for today's gigantic Game Boy market.

Yeah right. How long you been gaming for? I remember Gameboys being out a lont longer than that.

Pokemon Red and Blue came out in 1996. The Gameboy came out when, in 1989? Did a little searching, and here:

On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Larry McVoy wrote:
> Have you forgotten Nintendo 64 sales?

I'm not sure as of what date, probably 3/31/97:

N64 2.6 Million units (US)
Super NES 40 million
Gameboy 45 million
Original NES 62 million

Projected sales for the 12 months starting 4/1/97: 12 million N64
system units.

So in 1997, we're talking about 45M GBs. In the last 7 years, Nintendo has more than doubled that total, but it's hardly indicative of Pokemon making the machine. It may have saved it from falling off the gaming map, but without that 40+M install base, I doubt we'd even be talking about Pokemon right now. My point is that the GB was the vessel that got Pokemon to the gamers. Pokemon didn't make the GB, the userbase was there. Red and Blue started it, but it could end just as well if the DS fails to take off. Nintendo can't keep releasing Pokemon games on the GB, GBC, PGB or GBA and expect it to continue to sell in the face of the PSP. If you think so, maybe you work for Nintendo, b/c it's that lame thinking that's gotten them into this predicament in the first place. This isn't the first time Nintendo has wasted their market. They did it with the NES and then kinda with the SNES after it. They procrastinate and now it's biting them in the ass. I think the future of Nintendo AND the Pokemon gaming empire (note, not the tv and movie juggernauts) rests on the shoulders of the DS. As has been mentioned, the GBA and GB userbases will be worthless in a couple years. Nintendo also can't release a new handheld in the next 18 months and expect to be taken seriously. So it's DS or die IMO. If the DS can carve out a market ala the GC, then Nintendo can buy time with Pokemon as their liferaft. They're just barely hanging on with the GC too, with their old franchises keeping them afloat. But this is a market they should be dominating. Sony shouldn't even have a chance to enter the game. Nintendo is just slow and stupid, and if you don't believe it, come back in a couple of years. I don't think there would be as many reactions like this is we all hadn't seen the same exact thing before. Anyone who's been around since the NES days and before knows exactly what's coming. The writing's on the wall. Seems the game companies aren't exactly the best at the game business. PEACE.

 

[Meier]

Maybe I won't realize my need for an iPod until I buy one.

Ain't that the truth. I can't imagine being without mine now and I dont even have 2,000 songs on it yet.

 

[soundwave05]

Except the Game Boy was six years old by 1995.

Yeah there was a back userbase, but I don't think there were quite as many active users as you think there were.

Nintendo was prepping the Virtual Boy to take over the Game Boy since sales had started to whittle away by '95.

Pokemon definitely breathed new life into the platform.

You had scores of new kids buying Game Boys who were just toddlers back when the Game Boy launched in 1989. It really did bring a totally new audience and caused sales of the Game Boy Color to skyrocket.

 

[Midas]

I never really got the point with having 5000-10000 songs. I can't imagine ever feeling the need to carry 5000 songs with me while being on the move. It just seems like overkill. Maybe I won't realize my need for an iPod until I buy one.

You won't, trust me.

 

[Memles]

Yeah right. How long you been gaming for? I remember Gameboys being out a lont longer than that.

Pokemon Red and Blue came out in 1996. The Gameboy came out when, in 1989?

Pokemon saved the Game Boy. In a time when it seemed the portable would die, Pokemon rebuilt interest, which led Nintendo to release the Game Boy Pocket, and all of a sudden the system continued strong, headed into the GBC and then GBA...Pokemon facilitated the golden age of Game Boy.

 

[DCharlie]

"I guess they're fooling all of those investors by posting all that profit over the past 4 years. The losses are under the rug never to be found again."

can you explain to me how the profits over the last 4 years show that the PS2 is a profitable venture?

What do you think were the costs to get the PS2 off the ground?
Aren't some of those profits from the highly popular PSOne?
etc etc....

 

[soundwave05]

Yeah I see a lot of people throwing around claims, but does anyone know the PS2 production costs/R&D versus their profits the last few years?

I know they took a monsterous loss like a year ago, I believe the largest in company history that sent their shares tumbling, but I can't remember why that happened (I'm speaking in terms of Sony as an overall company).

I would imagine the PS2 will be a profitable venture. They did lose money upfront, but they also held tight at the $299.99 US price point for a long time.

 

[mr2mike]

All this Ipod talk... tsk tsk tsk.

it's almost like the word "Ipod" has become synonimous for mp3 player.

What PSP really is stab at the normal MP3 plaer market, wich is still quite big, of wich Sony's own Network Walkman is part of.

The music playing PSP isn't even competition forNetMD and even les for HiMD. it'd cost a fortune in memory sticks just to equate one 5 dollar 1gigabyte HiMD blank. if you start talking about multi gig HD players, well, that's just worlds apart.

The PSP becomes intersting as a music player if you dont already have a solid state removable media player, or an obselete one. Because you're not likely to want to trade a superior capacity for the gimmick of having an all in one device. However, You can bet that for a lot of people, buying one portable that can play music, vs one that they can't, WILL play a factor.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

What's this about?

 

[soundwave05]

I dunno, I think it's just too big as an MP3 player.

I have an i-Pod and the place I use it the most is at the gym. I just can't imagine lugging a PSP in my pocket to listen to music.

I think the size of the i-Pod mini is about ideal for a portable music player actually.

Music playback is not a bad feature of course, and if I'm going on a trip where I can't bring my i-Pod for whatever reason then yeah maybe I would throw a few tracks onto my Memory Stick.

I think the bigger market for PSP might be for legal UMD album sales that offer bonuses like music videos and artist interviews on the disc, which take advantage of that giant screen. The really rabid fans of certain bands/groups that must have all related periphenilia may just buy a PSP to be able to play these "enhanced" music albums.

 

[DCharlie]

my main use for my Zen is when i go jogging.

there is no way i'd even begin to think about using the PSP in the same capacity, that screen just ain't worth breakin' !

 

[Grizzlyjin]

my main use for my Zen is when i go jogging.

there is no way i'd even begin to think about using the PSP in the same capacity, that screen just ain't worth breakin' !

Oh god. Can you imagine a PSP hitting the ground? Eugh, just the thought makes me want to freak out.

 

[soundwave05]

I've had my i-Pod accidentally slip out of my pocket while I was doing bench press, but it didn't fall too far, luckily.

I just can't see myself using the PSP in the same situation.

I'm sure maybe some people might if they don't want seperate units.

 

[Defensor]

Oh god. Can you imagine a PSP hitting the ground? Eugh, just the thought makes me want to freak out.

"NO! THE BEAUTIFUL SCREEN!"

 

[Vark]

I have a Zodiac 2 which has a screen thats just as good if not better than the PSP one. It has a swanky leather flap attached to the unit that flips over and covers it.

I *heart* my zod.

 

[Lord Error]

I'm sure maybe some people might if they don't want seperate units.

That's the thing - I for one, don't like carrying bunch of gadgets around with me. If I feel like playing games on the go, I'd only bring a PSP, and as it happens that it can also play the latest songs that I have (which is what I listen to 99% of time anyways), it's even better. I can actually see myself buying a 1GB stick for it, it'll be more than enough to hold every song I've obtained in the last year, and couple of videos probably.

I already have a 512MB SD card for my Pocket PC, and it amazes me how much useful stuff (games, music) I can store on it.

I have a Zodiac 2 which has a screen thats just as good if not better than the PSP one.

Don't fool yourself I've seen Zodiac, it's the standard PDA quality screen.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

That's the thing - I for one, don't like carrying bunch of gadgets around with me. If I feel like playing games on the go, I'd only bring a PSP, and as it happens that it can also play the latest songs that I have (which is what I listen to 99% of time anyways), it's even better.

agreed - if having this thing with me and being able to listen to a few albums without firing up another gadget, i'm all for it.. those promo shots of the box etc for psp have sucked me in big time ds, psp, all these new gadgets i think my heads gonna explode ...oh man im such a geek

 

[soundwave05]

If I can get a 3-4 GB Memory Stick in the future for say $50 or so, I might consider using it as an MP3 player. How much bigger than the i-Pod is it though? If it's something that doesn't fit comfortably into a pocket ... zuh, I dunno.

Also I notice for the promo/packaging shots that the PSP appears to have a "dulled" black finish, but pics of the unit at E3 and TGS have a cool "glossy" finish.

I hope they keep the glossy finish.

You can't have everything, but man how sweet would it have been if UMD was a rewritable format ala MiniDisc or Blu-Ray? 1.5 GB would store a ton of video or music or photos if that's what you wanted.

 

[kaching]

I have an i-Pod and the place I use it the most is at the gym. I just can't imagine lugging a PSP in my pocket to listen to music.

I was actually thinking the PSP would be great while you're on a treadmill at the gym...would beat watching what they generally have the overhead TVs tuned into...CNN, MTV and ESPN...

my main use for my Zen is when i go jogging.

there is no way i'd even begin to think about using the PSP in the same capacity, that screen just ain't worth breakin' !

How much are Zens in Japan? Because, if the PSP price translates to the US as is, the PSP is cheaper than some models of Zen! Just buy a new PSP!

 

[soundwave05]

I dunno when you're working out (specifically lifting weights) it's kinda annoying to have "stuffed" pockets.

The smaller my music player is the better for me.

 

[DCharlie]

"How much are Zens in Japan? Because, if the PSP price translates to the US as is, the PSP is cheaper than some models of Zen! Just buy a new PSP! "

I got the 20 gig model for 22,000.

I'll probably buy a second PSP anyways so i can use it as a recharger.

And probably a few extra ones to use as shoulder pads ... or something...

god, two scrums to be involved in... the race for one of 300,000 DS machines
and the race for one of 200,000 PSPs....

I think the DS preorders are on the same day that the PSTwo goes on sale....
CARNAGE!

 

[kaching]

Generally, I don't even have pockets, so I use a belt pouch. I don't think the "bulk" of a PSP would be much different from a CD player, but we'll see.

Edit: only 300,000 DSes? I thought they had a million for the launch?

 

[Shoryuken]

Generally, I don't even have pockets, so I use a belt pouch. I don't think the "bulk" of a PSP would be much different from a CD player, but we'll see.

Edit: only 300,000 DSes? I thought they had a million for the launch?

It's 300,000 the first week and 700,000 more for the rest of 2004. The PSP ships 200,000 the first week and 300,000 more for the rest of 2004.