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Kill la Kill |OT|
- Thread starter Crash Station
- Start date
That's another problem with the term. What part of any show isn't for the fans benefit? Even if we are to believe my interpretation of how KLK is deconstructing fanservice with those scenes, they are still ultimately about educating the viewer into a more thoughtful mindset on the subject. The wire is meant to give the viewer a look into what its like living in the ghettos of baltimore, what it's politics are like, its police force... It's hard to think of a story of any kind that we can definitively say has no regard for its audience whatsoever. Taken broadly enough, it can make the term meaningless, which is why I dislike using it for the most part.
As for your question, if mako just gets that for little narrative reason and it's really just to tickle the fan's fancy...it'd be wierd for Nudist Beach to have something like that, but they can easily throw something outthere to make it narratively justified. Whether it's fanservice depends on how much they justify it and how strict your definition of fanservice is.
heliosRAzi
Banned
It's not fan service. It's not erotic; it's creepy. You can keep calling it that and keep being wrong.
Moral Panic
Member
I'd say it's more like calling a comedy which has an otherwise "serious moment" but with a huge laugh track play at the end, a comedy scene.
Is Satsuki's orgasm the laugh track?
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
So because Kill la Kill isn't handling it the way you think it should, it's fanservice
Ok
Do you understand that you are saying that a woman touching another woman in those zones has absolutely nothing to do with eroticism?
Wait i'll stop you right now because given your posts in here it's already clear your mantra, no, you are not a sick fuck if you felt a little bit of arousal from the scenes because it's a primordial instincts to feel like that. You would be a sick fuck if you greatly enjoyed it and had no problems to recreate these situation for your satisfaction.
No matter how you spin it the erotic part in those scenes is and always will be there, now one could argue how much importance is given to the Eros in there but you can't say that there's no trace of it.
IDK about you but I wager people who look to jack off to anime girls probably aren't looking for motherxdaughter pics. The scenes are erotic, but not for the same reason that fanservice typically is. Or rather, they don't seem aimed at the same people.
I have no doubt some people are pulling the fanservice card just because it's anime. If you didn't expect the scenes, they probably did their job at being weird. But people are simplifying them to be just clear-cut fanservice for pervert otakus, or whatever.
To which I ask, where's the track?
heliosRAzi
Banned
Okay. It's still not fan service.
I want to agree but I keep wondering if Lawful Good might be applied, considering recent revelations. She might be like one of those Big Picture Paladins who feels you have to scramble a few eggs to have an omelet.
That analogy felt like it went off the rails somewhere...
I would sincerely bet on the opposite instead, i'm fairly sure about this. I understood though that at the end this is the seed of the argument, for me there are actually people who would enjoy this and they put these scenes knowing that, when for you such people isn't there or at least not enough to stimulate the team behind the anime to put those scenes there to please them. I think that there is no way to find out who's right or wrong at this point.
I can't talk for others but i can assure you that i didn't raised the argument just because this was an anime, if this was a book or a movie i would've said the same things. If i ever will do the opposite feel free to call me out immediately.
It's not as black or white as you want to put it, get over it.
----
I only know re-read my previous two posts and not only they read like crap but there are also stupid errors, i'm sorry for that.
heliosRAzi
Banned
It is black and white. It's not fan service and wasn't meant to be. All you have to look is the tone and the handling of the scene. Earlier in the episode, we get a lot of fan service from the Nudists, but then the tone changes drastically from playful and humorous to BAD TOUCH BAD TOUCH BAD TOUCH
Yeah, it's not fan service at all. No one expected that shit, no one wanted to see that. It's definitely bad touch meant to make you uncomfortable.
It was our introduction to Ragyo as a child abusing piece of scum and lending reason as to why Satsuki has a very closed personality. I don't think we've ever seen Satsuki smile (anything above a smirk) in the series.
I'm looking forward to seeing how her relationship with Ryuko and nudist beach helps her grow and open up as a character - probably eventually being able to synchronize with Junketsu (or maybe even Senketsu).
You can't prove that.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Can. Did.
as far as my post goes, it was not about being creepy, bad or whatever, I was just wondering what was the purpose of that act or if it was already explained, I didn't remember that injection stuff and that's it.
the fact that she's bad and that her character is supposed to do these kind of things, yes, it's true. fiddling her fits the part of Ragyo being creepy or just evil towards her daughter if you think of that act as a violation of her body, or something along those lines, but seemingly Satsuki doesn't give a fuck anyway.
specifically for that action, I'm pretty sure that it's going to do the opposite of adding fuel for the audience's dislike.
firstly, I didn't really write "the fuck is this fanservice shit" nor I wanted to criticize, secondly you can't deny that there is some fanservice there.
Common sense is proof of that. The tonal difference between Rag-Sat and every other eroticesque thing on that show is like night and day.
Full on child abuse from a mother to her daughter is not fan service, it's just abuse. The sexual nature of the abuse does not make it fan service.
Fan service is titillation, those scenes are not titillating they're disturbing.
I suppose if your mind was f*cked up and you found those things appealing it could be fan service to you, but it's plainly not there for the sake of titillation - it's there to show that Ragyo is an abusive mother and Satsuki has been tormented as such for a number of years preceding the events of the series.
Sexual content does not equal fan service, context as always, matters greatly.
Black-Wind
Member
*Sigh
Why don't you look at all my examples? Roger doesn't violently rape or molest on screen ... I think the most violent he is shown is dragging a large paralyzed black man into a room to rape him. I never, not once, suggested that the scene should be violent.
And in my last paragraph I layed out exactly what you're talking about ...
"And on a side note I think I see WHAT they're trying to do. They want Ragyo to show her power and control over her via molestation (bending her to her well with the invasion of personal space). That's why the first encounter we see is with clothes on and satsuki barely moving and the 2nd with them both nude and satsuki appearing to submit to her. But then, the first time we see finger grace vag, it's in a fight and satsuki gets her "Purity" taken away. Now she's chained up, nude and likely been Ragyo's play thing for a month. She can't be controlled by Ragyo anymore or at least doesn't want to keep up that appearance anymore and that's why she's completely unresponsive to being fingered and spanked by her own mother this ep."
What's my point? That they presented this as erotic fan-service. Not that it's inappropriate or anything ... just jarringly strange. Key word here is presented. Framing, cam-movings, panning, music, visual ques and posing all add to the notion that this is erotic presentation. There are TONS of ways you can show this on-screen relationship as being warped without making it erotic. You could play it with humor like some many other things in the series or you could go darker but in no way is the only way to present this event simply as some erotic fan-service. Hell, you can take the bath scene and not change a thing about the posing, just take out the flowery stuff and use the cam to focus on the things that need to be focused on to show the viewer she's being abused.
And yeah, when people are accusing members of being turned on by incestial rape/ molestation simply because they call this out as fan-service then I think someone needs to step up and clear this up (aka, shut it down). It's funny cause the show is pretty much nothing but fan-service yet some people are so devoted to seeing the Ragyo scenes as "just creepy ...!"
Please do me a favor and show the bath scene to someone who knows nothing about the show and ask them if it's erotic without telling them any context going in. I fear that your devotion to the show is blinding you to the fact that that scene is shoot erotically.
... When did I say how I think it SHOULD be handled? I don't think I ever said that ... i said I could see many different ways it COULD be handled or shown and I said that I think that the clear erotic-fan service (scenes made mainly to show off a character in a erotic light) was a jarring and strange choice for a series like this.
Geez it feels like arguing with a baby, no you really didn't what you have seen as fanservice->humorous->bad other have seen it as fanservice->humorous->fanservice.
All you did was explaining what have you seen and want to impose your view on the others.
No doubt it's erotic but fan-service is meant to bring about pleasure to the fans. Out of context, sure it can be seen as that but within context it's meant to be gross and have a much more impactful subtext.
For a show that's like 99% fanservice the tone of those scenes feel largely different.
For a show that's like 99% fanservice the tone of those scenes feel largely different.
heliosRAzi
Banned
But context is everything here. If I showed someone that scene, they'd think I was watching hentai until I said that rainbow head was the other chick's mom and that she is the villain of the series. Then they would think that Ragyo was being creepy as fuck and abusing her child. Clearly, the show presents Ragyo as being unsympathetic to her children. She literally threw one into the trash without a second thought and only mild irritation.
Yeah... I think you're reading a bit too far into it.
heliosRAzi
Banned
A lot of other people share a similar view on the subject as I do: it's not fan service.
[QUOTE="from Wikipedia]Fan service (ファンサービス fan sābisu?), fanservice, or service cut (サービスカット sābisu katto?),[1][2] is a term originating from anime and manga fandom for material in a series which is intentionally added to please the audience.[3] It is about "servicing" the fan[4] - giving the fans "exactly what they want".[5] Fan service usually refers to "gratuitous titillation"...[/QUOTE]
Do you think that a mother molesting her daughter was meant to please us? Do you think they gave us exactly what we wanted with that scene?
The real argument is whether or not it was tasteful or handled correctly. That's the real debate.
A lot of other people share a similar view on the subject as I do: it's fan service.
See? that's how you sound.
If you had read my previous posts you would know how i think about it, yes i think that they put those scenes to please part of the audience which is not you and me and gave them exactly what they wanted.
God, this whole argument would be half as long if people actually had a consistant definition....or better still, wasn't used as a term in general.
Some people refuse to define it as anything except T&A, so Satsuki shown being nude is fanservice even if she was being violently raped or no matter how little fans enjoyed seeing it. It wouldn't matter what the context or tone is: Tits? Ass? Fan service.
Some people define it as something that's pleasing or for the fans, but that definition is faulty because it can be stretched too far to encompass every single aspect of a story. Is showing T&A pleasing the fans? Fanservice. Is Ryuko doing something cool? Fanservice. Is Mako saying a line that makes the audience laugh? Fanservice. All these things are pleasing to the audience, right?
Like I said, I think the most practical definition of fanservice is when something is made out to please the fans without much narrative justification or need for it. I'll happily admit that the scenes between Ragyo and satsuki are erotic and sexualized, while also being uncomfortable, but it wouldn't matter if I was turned on by the scene without shame, because what is happening on screen isn't for the benefit of me as a fan, but for the benefit of the narrative. What we are seeing is characterization, and Ragyou would not be the same character had we not personally witnessed what she does. It could have been done a different way, everything always can, but the fact that it is not purposeless to the narrative renders it not fanservice, however the audience reacts to it.
Some people refuse to define it as anything except T&A, so Satsuki shown being nude is fanservice even if she was being violently raped or no matter how little fans enjoyed seeing it. It wouldn't matter what the context or tone is: Tits? Ass? Fan service.
Some people define it as something that's pleasing or for the fans, but that definition is faulty because it can be stretched too far to encompass every single aspect of a story. Is showing T&A pleasing the fans? Fanservice. Is Ryuko doing something cool? Fanservice. Is Mako saying a line that makes the audience laugh? Fanservice. All these things are pleasing to the audience, right?
Like I said, I think the most practical definition of fanservice is when something is made out to please the fans without much narrative justification or need for it. I'll happily admit that the scenes between Ragyo and satsuki are erotic and sexualized, while also being uncomfortable, but it wouldn't matter if I was turned on by the scene without shame, because what is happening on screen isn't for the benefit of me as a fan, but for the benefit of the narrative. What we are seeing is characterization, and Ragyou would not be the same character had we not personally witnessed what she does. It could have been done a different way, everything always can, but the fact that it is not purposeless to the narrative renders it not fanservice, however the audience reacts to it.
heliosRAzi
Banned
It is clear in the tone of the scene that they do not intend it to be fan service. It is completely different from all of the other fan service in the anime. If they were targeting creeps with a fetish for mothers molesting daughters that hung from a cage, they are going after an incredibly niche market.
I'll go with this.
Let's move away from this and meet the voice actors
Black-Wind
Member
Nooo, context is not everything here. I am pointing at these scenes as erotic depictions of a character put in the show mainly to please fans who want to see said character in an erotic light (AKA, Fan service ... ya know, for people who want to see her body in sexy poses being sensually groped by someone. Sat only ever appears to be shown in an erotic light in these scenes, she's always shown as controlled and strong otherwise. This is for the fans who want erotic scenes, like the whipping scene was for those kinda fans. If it's NOT to please these fans then theres MANY other ways they can convey this relationship onscreen other then erotic).
And I doubt random person would just go "it's creeeeepy!" now that they know the 2 are related. Most would still think it's a hentai cause that stuff is pretty common place there or they would just find it strange. You can only feel "uncomfortable" if you know the show enough and you arn't in the group of fans would would appreciate seeing a sexually submissive Sat being spread like eye candy on the screen.
Of course it'll go to benefit the "fan", show these scenes clear as day it's not going to benefit the characterization of the character more than make the same scene with silhouettes/shadows and being more subtle about it... you want to arbitrary remove this fact from the argument when it's a very important evidence. But even if, the character of Ragyo doesn't come out as less bad/evil after they said that she had a second child only to further try experimenting and gladly opened her newborn daughter in half and thrown her into the trash as soon as dead.
As i said before it totally does feel like putting the scenes were the priority and then try to fit them into the plot.
The cage scene is not the only one, the bath scene is stereotyped enough in erotic fanservicey works and it isn't out of place, the "fingers" scene is within a scene of semi nude girls fighting and again it isn't out of place of the erotic fanservice context.
But yeah sure let's move away since the arguments are only repeating themselves and no one will change their ideas.
I'm starting to fall more on Hitokage's side of the fence about this particular scene, but at this point there's pretty much no taboo that I couldn't believe an anime would intentionally eroticize. After all, "Recently, My Sister Has Been Rather Unusual" is currently airing, and that's a show that throws incontinence in to spice up its brother/sister incest pairing. Would mother/daughter really be a line too far to cross?
It's kind of like trying to create a scenario for violence in a video game absurd enough that the player knows not to take it seriously. When games like Homefront, Modern Warfare 2, or Ghosts play the craziest things completely straight-faced, there's nothing you can invent that the player can know, on its own, is supposed to be seen as untrustworthy.
RockTurtle
Member
si!
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Some people have the need to feel morally superior to others, and this is another seed in that garden.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
I cant believe you guys are still arguing over this.
The difference is that there isn't a need to be subtle about it. The need is for it to happen. Hypothetically, it could have been done in a way that is less erotic, and you take it to mean that it is fanservice. I could make the inverse argument that there are ways to do it that make it even more erotic.
But bringing in hypotheticals into this is useless because its essentially writing fanfiction. What the author intended and how the general audience reacts is immaterial to me because what I try to do is evaluate the narrative work in a vacuum. And 'what ifs' don't factor into that, partly because whatever is in our imagination never translates into the actual product perfectly. Maybe your suggestion that it would have the same characterization with silhouettes is true. Maybe you just think it's true and it actually wouldn't. We cannot know until you literally bring the vision in your mind to our eyes. Because if it worked as a simple idea and then putting it on paper, with the audience always getting the intended meaning, there would never be such a thing as bad work. No, we can only work with what we have, and these scenes, are vital to the story, regardless if they could have been done another way.
As for Ragyou...everything a character does is part of their characterization. And the scenes with her molesting Satsuki make her a different character than if she did not and we merely saw the other stuff, like her ditching the baby. Where as everything else is handled with cold effeciency for her crusade as an agent of life fibers, her interaction with Satsuki reveals not just a disregard for her daughter as a person, but a sadistic pleasure in exploiting her. She would still be a 'bad guy' without this, but this just adds another facet of her being the bad guy, and more importantly, a window for us to understand why Satsuki resents her the way she does. Whatever else you think of these scenes, they are important on a level that their exclusion would alter the narrative enough that it would be a different story without them. In a small way, but a significant way.
SixMachine
Member
So do you like Life (fibers) or Hometown?
I personally that life can be too emotional at times but after some reflection, maybe hometown isn't such a nice place after all and over-bearing at times. Hometown can change and Life can get better *shrug*
I personally that life can be too emotional at times but after some reflection, maybe hometown isn't such a nice place after all and over-bearing at times. Hometown can change and Life can get better *shrug*
Giolon
Member
Me too! *Hi5*
Mr. Smiley
Member
I feel like I'm missing some major context here.
polyh3dron
Banned
Me too
has something to do with that horrible looking fan service-centric property called Senran Kagura: http://gematsu.com/2014/02/senran-kagura-burst-gets-life-hometown-edition-europe
This is the Internet. We don't know what middle ground means.
"Accepting different viewpoints? THE FUCK IS THAT SHIT?!"
Still, this helps make my procrastination go easier, so keep it up gents!
New idea: Top 5 Character Themes GO
Relevant tracks from the OST if you wanna go give them a listen:
My ranking:
5) Nui Harime - Ominous and deranged, mixing playfulness with crazy, obviously encapsulating Nui pretty well. Those drops totally sold the ending of episode 11in a way that Hollywood tries to sell most dramatic action thrillers
4) Senketsu/Nudist Beach - First part's been used with Tsumugu and Aikuro a few times so I'll just lump em together. Suck your blood was a bit of an acquired taste; at first those "random techno noises" (for lack of a better term) throughout were kind of annoying, but once I got past those the "chorus" kicks in and the vocals and guitar take over for a cool little rock out moment. Then the second part starts and the lyrics get amusingly ridiculous ("HALF NAKED, GOOD LOOKING" and dude totally says "SMACK YOUR BITCH UP BABY") and ends with some laughable talk about sucking blood and whatnot.
3) Ragyo Kiryuuin - It's Blumenkranz, son.
2) Nonon Jakuzure - I like Gamagoori's theme, but when I'm listening to this track I'm really here for the second half. Starts of with a nice little 'marching band of doom' sound to it, then ramps it up just a bit with guitars and some horns, cools off a bit, then becomes as boisterous and larger-than-life as Nonon herself.
1) Satsuki Kiryuuin - First half Satsuki stands on high, towering over all with her iron will and calling the pigs in human clothing to order. But in the second half, guitars and drums once again come into play and shit gets real as Satsuki descends to take care of shit personally. And as we all know, when Satsuki gets serious, shit gets done.
Before my body is dry and Gamagoori's theme tie for 6th I guess, but, top 5 :V
Relevant tracks from the OST if you wanna go give them a listen:
My ranking:
5) Nui Harime - Ominous and deranged, mixing playfulness with crazy, obviously encapsulating Nui pretty well. Those drops totally sold the ending of episode 11
4) Senketsu/Nudist Beach - First part's been used with Tsumugu and Aikuro a few times so I'll just lump em together. Suck your blood was a bit of an acquired taste; at first those "random techno noises" (for lack of a better term) throughout were kind of annoying, but once I got past those the "chorus" kicks in and the vocals and guitar take over for a cool little rock out moment. Then the second part starts and the lyrics get amusingly ridiculous ("HALF NAKED, GOOD LOOKING" and dude totally says "SMACK YOUR BITCH UP BABY") and ends with some laughable talk about sucking blood and whatnot.
3) Ragyo Kiryuuin - It's Blumenkranz, son.
2) Nonon Jakuzure - I like Gamagoori's theme, but when I'm listening to this track I'm really here for the second half. Starts of with a nice little 'marching band of doom' sound to it, then ramps it up just a bit with guitars and some horns, cools off a bit, then becomes as boisterous and larger-than-life as Nonon herself.
1) Satsuki Kiryuuin - First half Satsuki stands on high, towering over all with her iron will and calling the pigs in human clothing to order. But in the second half, guitars and drums once again come into play and shit gets real as Satsuki descends to take care of shit personally. And as we all know, when Satsuki gets serious, shit gets done.
Well, except that one time, but...
Before my body is dry and Gamagoori's theme tie for 6th I guess, but, top 5 :V
It's an argument of intention. How well they went about it is another matter, and one I'm entirely willing to give on. What I'm arguing against is the kneejerk "oh why are they trying to titillate viewers by including that scene", and a bunch of other similar claims by people with limited experience in cinema.
And then there's the "KLK is emblematic of how fanservice and moe have ruined anime over the past decade" which was common early in the thread, and is factually wrong.
People said that? Pffffthahaha!
Yeah, just like people who said "Kill La Kill will save anime."
No one really believed that, it was just a hilariously stupid /a/ daily thread. Besides, Inferno Cop already did.
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