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[luoapp]

Saw this BGR link to a Fire usability review and had to laugh at all the ardent Fire fans ignorant of Jakob Nielsen's credentials. Even Nielsen's defenders in the comments don't realize how much he's done in the field. So much angst over what's mostly just a UX design issue, probably the easiest type of issue to resolve if Amazon just spends a little attention to UX.

At least this comment against him seems valid

2. It's heavy. Compare to what? This is a fundamental problem with his article. He compares the Fire to both the original Kindle and the iPad, but only when it makes the Fire look bad. When it comes to weight, he compares it to the original Kindle, when it comes to screen size he compares it to the iPad. Why doesn't he compare it to a desktop 28" monitor as well for screen size as well?

 

[mAcOdIn]

Saw this BGR link to a Fire usability review and had to laugh at all the ardent Fire fans ignorant of Jakob Nielsen's credentials. Even Nielsen's defenders in the comments don't realize how much he's done in the field. So much angst over what's mostly just a UX design issue, probably the easiest type of issue to resolve if Amazon just spends a little attention to UX.

I actually disagree wholeheartedly when it comes to the web browser and his silly "maybe Amazon did this on purpose to stop you from buying stuff" crap but the rest I think was spot on.

The lack of physical buttons only hurts it, I'd never dock for extra buttons(unless they're in a terrible spot) but can only take away when they're not there. The power button is not in the most ideal spot although mine is luckily not touchy enough that it's actually activated when I did not want it to but it's still annoying and I'm constantly worried that it will. And then the rest of their issues I think are both factual and clearly not limited to the Kindle Fire but of course also apply to it, magazines suck on it and should indeed be designed for the screen size, at least if they're to be sold as native material, if they removed that section I think it'd be less of an issue but when you sell the magazines, advertize it as reading magazines and then provide an experience that sucks, well, that's a problem. I feel similar about comics. Luckily I don't care for either anyways so these are non issues for me.

But the web browser issue I just don't really get, I don't think there's anything wrong with it at all. there is an inherent limitation in how accurate your touch will be compared to a mouse but I have not used any touchscreen where this was not the case. the mobile site option is also a double edged sword because sure it's easier to tap has less or no horizontal scrolling but then there's also many times less content so I really disagree that everyone as a matter of fact should send the mobile version to 7inch tablets by default. While I have not tried it yet I rather like the option of it being by site like the Amazon Browser says it can do.

But I see where the guy is coming from, it IS a weird size, it works well for books but for magazines and the web it's clearly not as ideal, obviously the best solution would be if everything were designed for the 7inch screen but I don't really think we'll get to a point where all media is available for all form factors natively so rather than suggest that as the option or use that to dock a device I would be suggesting offering ways around it when they exist, like in the browser which they did point out, and user education as I don't believe many of these magazines should be sellable in their shoddy states and I won't, and don't believe others should either, support these shitty early digital magazine attempts.

 

[Levi]

How do you lock orientation?

 

[mAcOdIn]

How do you lock orientation?

Click the top menu option bar, or the top of the screen that will bring it up then click on "unlocked," that will lock it. Far from ideal in my opinion.

At least this comment against him seems valid

Well I think there's actually a lot of that to be honest. Almost everything he does in the article is in many ways rather silly, it's like he expects it to excel at everything. I mean, is he going to dock a 10" for size and weight for content that's smaller than the screen and having wasted space? It gets to be a tad odd. Some things will never be ideal on a 7inch tablet. Ever. Some things will never be ideal on a 10 inch tablet. I like reading books on the Kindle Fire way more than the iPad but would rather browse the web on the iPad than the Kindle Fire and for that matter, while there were no digital magazines when I owned the iPad, I imagine it'd do a better job at them than the Fire as well. So what? These are general purpose devices and it's like he almost gets it and at the same time doesn't almost get it.

Edit: Of course this doesn't actually argue against his idea that everything would be better if content were specifically designed for 7inch tablets as this is 100% true.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

Keep in mind that he's not throwing out random comments, he's basing this off actual usability testing with actual test subjects. When he says something doesn't work, it's because he's watched someone try for several minutes to enter a username and password on a web page that only has two text boxes and a submit button. And he does have practical suggestions to help out: users, use the mobile versions of sites - site designers, customize for a 7" screen.

I just find it funny how quick people are to dismiss him because they don't agree with him. Joe Casabona asks "How would one becoming a UI Expert?" Well Joe, a Ph.D. in human-computer interaction, 20 years in the usability field, a successful usability consulting firm, and writing multiple textbooks on the subject would be a start I would think.

 

[BFIB]

The lack of buttons (mainly volume controls) were one of my main gripes about the Kindle Fire. Now that I've had my Fire for a few weeks, I've gotten used to everything on the UI and the device. I don't even think twice about when I turn my volume up, or down.

 

[luoapp]

When he says something doesn't work, it's because he's watched someone try for several minutes to enter a username and password on a web page that only has two text boxes and a submit button. And he does have practical suggestions to help out: users, use the mobile versions of sites - site designers, customize for a 7" screen.

So, what was he testing, the web page or the kindle?

 

[mAcOdIn]

The lack of buttons (mainly volume controls) were one of my main gripes about the Kindle Fire. Now that I've had my Fire for a few weeks, I've gotten used to everything on the UI and the device. I don't even think twice about when I turn my volume up, or down.

I still think these are negatives honestly, especially the screen lock orientation thing and volume. I don't miss directional buttons for navigating like Jakob Nielsen does as that would have added more heigth or taken away heighth from the screen. That part was whining for the sake of whining. But the lack of a volume and orientation locks becomes an issue inside some apps where the menu doesn't pop up and your only option is to back out completely make your change and go back in or just deal with it, which are things I can work around and for a cheap device will work around but I will never say it's ideal or not an issue.

Keep in mind that he's not throwing out random comments, he's basing this off actual usability testing with actual test subjects. When he says something doesn't work, it's because he's watched someone try for several minutes to enter a username and password on a web page that only has two text boxes and a submit button. And he does have practical suggestions to help out: users, use the mobile versions of sites - site designers, customize for a 7" screen.

I just find it funny how quick people are to dismiss him because they don't agree with him. Joe Casabona asks "How would one becoming a UI Expert?" Well Joe, a Ph.D. in human-computer interaction, 20 years in the usability field, a successful usability consulting firm, and writing multiple textbooks on the subject would be a start I would think.

I've learned from experience that credentials don't amount to much but in his case I think he was wrong about the browser as it's not even the browser with the issue nor do I think Amazon had any nefarious purpose with it, right on some of the hardware buttons and then right on some other things, like web sites in general and the amount of screen room but that that wasn't actually related to the Kindle Fire at all and rather pointless. So he's got some credentials sure but his opinion is ultimately no more or less valid than anyone else's here.

 

[Blackhead]

So, what was he testing, the web page or the kindle?

That's a good question.

 

[BiggNife]

Just a quick heads-up: Amazon seems to be silently price-matching all of the apps on their store that happen to be a part of the 10 cent Android Market promotion today. So Asphalt 6, Fieldrunners, Sketchbook Mobile etc. are all ten cents. I didn't see Amazon promoting this anywhere so I doubt most people know.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

At least this comment against him seems valid

2. It's heavy. Compare to what? This is a fundamental problem with his article. He compares the Fire to both the original Kindle and the iPad, but only when it makes the Fire look bad. When it comes to weight, he compares it to the original Kindle, when it comes to screen size he compares it to the iPad. Why doesn't he compare it to a desktop 28" monitor as well for screen size as well?

I'd argue that that comment misses the whole point. Nielsen isn't comparing the Fire to anything, he's not writing a buyer's guide. He is trying to identify the usability issues of the Fire. In that sense, "it's heavy" isn't a reason to buy something else, it's highlighting a usability issue. He brings up the older Kindles to show that the weight (or lack thereof) can improve usability. He even stresses this point when he says that according to his usability studies, the Fire is better geared for light non-fiction (something you'd read in shorter bursts where weight isn't as big of a usability issue.)

So, what was he testing, the web page or the kindle?

"Our goal was to discover design guidelines for companies that are building websites, apps, or content that their customers might access on a Fire."

Almost everything he does in the article is in many ways rather silly, it's like he expects it to excel at everything.

I think you're missing his point a bit. He doesn't expect it to excel at everything. His goal, as I quoted above, is to identify the usability issues so that Amazon and others that are designing content for the Fire (or other 7" screens) can avoid or improve those issues. Go back and read his famous Top ten mistakes of web design and Top ten new mistakes of web design articles. It sounds like he hates the web, but as people learned those mistakes either through Nielsen or learning them independently, the web experience improved. That's what he's expecting, for people to read his column, and use his advice to improve the usability of the device.

I still think these are negatives honestly, especially the screen lock orientation thing and volume. I don't miss directional buttons for navigating like Jakob Nielsen does as that would have added more heigth or taken away heighth from the screen. That part was whining for the sake of whining. But the lack of a volume and orientation locks becomes an issue inside some apps where the menu doesn't pop up and your only option is to back out completely make your change and go back in or just deal with it, which are things I can work around and for a cheap device will work around but I will never say it's ideal or not an issue.

Nielson's whole point, not just in this column, but as far as I can tell in his whole life, is to improve usability. He is about refining designs. He has proven again and again through testing that what appear to be small changes can make drastic improvements in usability. That's why I made the comment that he's not your average internet troll, he rips Apple just as much as he rips Amazon. He's not "whining," he's taking those issues that you're willing to work around and pointing out that those are areas for improvement.

I've learned from experience that credentials don't amount to much but in his case I think he was wrong about the browser as it's not even the browser with the issue nor do I think Amazon had any nefarious purpose with it, right on some of the hardware buttons and then right on some other things, like web sites in general and the amount of screen room but that that wasn't actually related to the Kindle Fire at all and rather pointless. So he's got some credentials sure but his opinion is ultimately no more or less valid than anyone else's here.

His exact quote is "If I were given to conspiracy theories, I'd say that Amazon deliberately designed a poor web browsing user experience to keep Fire users from shopping on competing sites." (my emp.) He doesn't actually think Amazon had a nefarious purpose for the poor usability of the browser. He's rhetorically using hyperbole to emphasize his point about the poor usability of the browser.

And, as a matter of fact, I would say his experience does make his opinion, based as it is on testing, more valid than any of ours as it relates to the Fire's usability. (As a side note, Nielsen would be the first to say that if his opinions weren't backed by testing, they would be invalid. He is very aware that usability guidelines frequently run counter to intuition.) You, and many others, are fine with working around those usability issues, but that doesn't make those issues any less real.

 

[mAcOdIn]

I think you're missing his point a bit. He doesn't expect it to excel at everything. His goal, as I quoted above, is to identify the usability issues so that Amazon and others that are designing content for the Fire (or other 7" screens) can avoid or improve those issues. Go back and read his famous Top ten mistakes of web design and Top ten new mistakes of web design articles. It sounds like he hates the web, but as people learned those mistakes either through Nielsen or learning them independently, the web experience improved. That's what he's expecting, for people to read his column, and use his advice to improve the usability of the device.

He DOES expect it to excel at everything because if he doesn't he's not making any damn sense! Would reading a book be improved by having navigation buttons like the Kindle on the Kindle Fire? Of course! But then it'd suck for other things. He did this with nearly everything in the article. If he's not expecting it to be a mythical perfect device he has an odd way of showing it.

Nielson's whole point, not just in this column, but as far as I can tell in his whole life, is to improve usability. He is about refining designs. He has proven again and again through testing that what appear to be small changes can make drastic improvements in usability. That's why I made the comment that he's not your average internet troll, he rips Apple just as much as he rips Amazon. He's not "whining," he's taking those issues that you're willing to work around and pointing out that those are areas for improvement.

I don't disagree with some of this, as I've also said I think the Fire has some real issues, issues that yes for 200 bucks I can work around but should not have to and would be happy if they were fixed in the next revision.

His exact quote is "If I were given to conspiracy theories, I'd say that Amazon deliberately designed a poor web browsing user experience to keep Fire users from shopping on competing sites." (my emp.) He doesn't actually think Amazon had a nefarious purpose for the poor usability of the browser. He's rhetorically using hyperbole to emphasize his point about the poor usability of the browser.

Just mentioning it was stupid because the browser's not bad at all and Amazon did no such thing with the browser, it was idiotic of him and not very professional. Especially when Amazon did other very clear things like lock you out of the Android Market and by extension other Android Malls or Markets or whatever the fuck they want to call them along with locking you out from say getting the Nook eReader app which is also a competitor to Amazon but instead of focusing on that very real issue he goes off on a stupid tangent about the browser being intentionally crippled. I don't care if it's hyperbole, it was stupid and frankly I find it patently false. But, since he's talking about usability and design perhaps the actual economics of being physically locked out of other marketplaces on the device was not in his scope of reach yet he decided to go there anyway with the browser like a fanboy.

And, as a matter of fact, I would say his experience does make his opinion, based as it is on testing, more valid than any of ours as it relates to the Fire's usability. (As a side note, Nielsen would be the first to say that if his opinions weren't backed by testing, they would be invalid. He is very aware that usability guidelines frequently run counter to intuition.) You, and many others, are fine with working around those usability issues, but that doesn't make those issues any less real.

I would say you are then wrong as whatever testing he's done is at times using flawed methodology. I can also test things and if I do so with nefarious purposes can make it come to the conclusion I want.

Now I'm not actually suggesting he did that, what I'm saying is I think he holds the device to too high a standard and that he unfortunately and erroneously but not entirely for no reason mixes the Kindle with the internet.

For the too high standards bit I've addressed some of it, he compares it to specialized devices, like the Kindle when it suits it but not in the opposite which is not helpful. The Kindle will be a better eReader than the Kindle Fire and the iPad and whatever else you want to throw it against but it will be a lot worse when it comes to the web or apps. There is a purpose and a reason for this much like how I don't rail on a motorcycle for not being able to seat a family of four and tow a horse trailer like a truck can, sure, they're both personal vehicles but that's where the similarities end and while it's helpful to know the differences it's rather stupid to fault one for not being able to do what the other can. For instance he railed on the buttons, sure, ok, say we add a left and right for page turning but what about precision now? Should we just add a touchpad or trackball? What about clicks? Why not just add a mouse and cord? He starts to ramble a bit and it really has little to do with UI at that point in his argument. Alright, I get it, he's not a fan of full touch screens. I guess. At least not if they can catch fingerprints. Or sunlight. I dunno, I don't even really give a damn. I'm not going to argue that glareless, fingerprintless glass wouldn't be awesome but it's not very helpful to fault things for being what's technically possible with present technology.

Then he talks about the web, I don't disagree that full sites are not ideal on the Kindle Fire and I also don't disagree that custom made websites would be better for the Kindle Fire and of course any other 7" tablet but I don't think this is related to the tablet itself. It's merely one thing the tablet does among many and the web is not the tablet, however the tablet's experience is of course impacted by it so I understand why he mentioned it I just don't agree with some of his predictions and how he seemed to weigh them based on space. He gave two scenarios, the 7 inch tablet dying, people bending over backwards to support them, well ok three, or only poor people being relegated to browsing on 7inch tablets out of cost necessity, which I find silly as fuck. Now it may very well turn out that 7inch tablets do not take off, that is possible, the market may speak loud and clear and it may just be ereaders that are made in that size and nothing else in the future, I dunno, but I do know that all the websites in the world are not going to be optimized for 7inch tablets so again that was a rather unhelpful suggestion. Yeah it'd be great if everyone supported 7inch tablet screen sizes but we can't even get them to all support the 16:9 and 16:10 ratios on the desktops either, it's a fucking pipe dream. There will never ever be a time when all content is custom made for all three desktop form factors, mobile phones, 7inch tablets and 10 inch tablets. Just never. So it was a stupid suggestion albeit a suggestion that'd be just great for the consumer if it happened. So while he was taking his leave of reality for a bit he decided to posit the theory that only poor people would be forced to hammer away at the undesirable 7inchers while the 1% fat cats luxuriously do their work on 10 inchers. This is just fucking silly. While I said before it's entirely possible the general market may decide against 7inch tablets making them as a whole not worth producing it not because no one wants them or because of cost. Shit, gut a 10inch tablet to the Kindle Fire's specs and you still have a cheap tablet. No it's because people's priorities are different and there's not a right or wrong in this. For the Web the Kindle Fire's not that great. Period. Fact. He's right in a way. But for books the Kindle Fire is better than a 10 incher! So what does this mean? Not make either size because neither does both 100% as good as can be? Is there not room for two sizes despite what one thinks of the user who opts for the smaller cheaper one? The amount of people who's primary focus is to read books with a touch of web and apps is probably smaller than the amount of people who want tablets for the web and apps so again it's entirely possible that the market will decide against them but that's not because of UX but because of economics. If he's not able to coherently separate the two that's his problem not mine and just because he's an expert doesn't mean he's infallible.

In fact his whole argument makes infinitely more sense when viewed as not a true UX argument against the kindle but an argument over why it will not be the dominant tablet. From that perspective I believe that he is entirely correct, the Kindle Fire will not best the iPad, it will not be the dominant tablet and it will not change the world. However, if I try and view his findings as a review of the Kindle Fire, the ebook reader that also surfs the web and checks email then his shit is laughable and troll worthy. For a consumer then, since he's seemingly incapable or merely unwilling to recognize the concept of specialized devices or prioritization of tasks his findings are useless however that's not to say that his opinions are not without merit, I'm positive that those who want to be not the Kindle Fire but the defacto tablet in the market will take a great many lessons from him.

 

[bangai-o]

since I cannot use last Fm anymore, I am using the Tune in app. it is able to find all my local radio much better than our regular Radios at work.

 

[mAcOdIn]

since I cannot use last Fm anymore, I am using the Tune in app. it is able to find all my local radio much better than our regular Radios at work.

It should! It's streaming them off the internet not plucking a FM signal through walls and shit.

 

[bangai-o]

It should! It's streaming them off the internet not plucking a FM signal through walls and shit.

it would be nice to be able to mark a song so that I can look for it later at amazon mp3.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

I think we're approaching this column from two very different perspectives. You see him as unfairly raking the Fire across the coals, I see him as giving constructive criticism - pointing out usability issues of the Fire just as he's done for other things since 1995. I've been reading his Alertbox columns since the late 90s and I'm used to the breezy, punchy style he writes them in because he knows people don't read on the web.

It's interesting that you say I'm wrong to give his testing-based findings more weight because his methodology is flawed, but then say in the very next paragraph that you aren't saying his methodology is flawed. Which is it?

And that goes back to why I even brought his column up in the first place. It is on the same order of willing ignorance as climate change denial for BGR commentators to handwave away a renown expert's (literally the guy who wrote the textbook) reporting of his test results because they don't like them. We have this far too much in today's society, activists of all stripes who look first to indict the source rather than understand the findings. Joe Casabona on BGR dismisses him because he doesn't bother to do a 10 second Google search on Nielsen to find his credentials are legit. Seriously, if Nielsen isn't a UX expert who is? If he isn't a UX expert, what would it take to be an expert in a really important field like nuclear physicist? You dismiss him because he worded a point too harshly. You take this test report intended to discover design guidelines for Fire targeted content as some sort of stinging rebuke of the device. It's not.

 

[mAcOdIn]

it would be nice to be able to mark a song so that I can look for it later at amazon mp3.

That's actually too good of an idea not to become true at some point, maybe not with that particular app but someone will do it.

I think we're approaching this column from two very different perspectives. You see him as unfairly raking the Fire across the coals, I see him as giving constructive criticism - pointing out usability issues of the Fire just as he's done for other things since 1995. I've been reading his Alertbox columns since the late 90s and I'm used to the breezy, punchy style he writes them in because he knows people don't read on the web.

Truth be told I don't see him as unfairly raking the Fire across the coals I see him as unfairly raking 7inch tablets across the coals the Kindle Fire just happens to be included. I actually don't give a damn about what people think of the Kindle Fire itself, sure I own one but I don't care that deeply about it nor am I paid by Amazon. I'm also the first to admit that as far as actual honest to God UX issues the Fire has some very real ones, lack of a volume and screen lock buttons being one, the power button placement another, heck I even find the stupid Kindle engraving on the back stupid. I also have very real UI issues with the most major being that sometimes when you're in an app, touching the bottom of the screen doesn't bring the top overlay back meaning you can exit the program or go back but you can't change the volume or lock the screen! Silly! I consider myself a fair person. How he didn't even mention the carousal is beyond me because I think it's rather crap in practice and I've said as much in this thread before you linked his stuff.

It's interesting that you say I'm wrong to give his testing-based findings more weight because his methodology is flawed, but then say in the very next paragraph that you aren't saying his methodology is flawed. Which is it?

Both! He got the right answer for the wrong problem so to speak.

And that goes back to why I even brought his column up in the first place. It is on the same order of willing ignorance as climate change denial for BGR commentators to handwave away a renown expert's (literally the guy who wrote the textbook) reporting of his test results because they don't like them. We have this far too much in today's society, activists of all stripes who look first to indict the source rather than understand the findings. Joe Casabona on BGR dismisses him because he doesn't bother to do a 10 second Google search on Nielsen to find his credentials are legit. Seriously, if Nielsen isn't a UX expert who is? If he isn't a UX expert, what would it take to be an expert in a really important field like nuclear physicist? You dismiss him because he worded a point too harshly. You take this test report intended to discover design guidelines for Fire targeted content as some sort of stinging rebuke of the device. It's not.

Lol, it's nothing of the sort.

You seem to like this guy almost as much as you seem to believe I care about the Kindle Fire, I think you'd be disappointed if you knew the truth. But anyways, playful jabs aside him being an expert doesn't make him above reproach, there are many experts in many fields and even then they get peer reviews and the like and obviously not all the experts are right at one time, doesn't make the ones who happened to be wrong less of an expert any more than it makes those that happened to be right on a specific issue more of an expert so this idea of holding up his credentials is silly. I'm attacking his studies and saying his credentials do not preclude him from being wrong or coming to the right conclusion about the wrong issue but I'm not calling into question his actual credentials. He very well may be an expert with everything that entails just as much as anyone else can be an expert in any other field and yet he can still be wrong.

Further, if you'll notice I was much harsher on the magazines sold with the express intent to be viewed on the Kindle than I am on individual web pages so I very much agree with the idea of setting guidelines for content specifically intended for viewing on the Kindle, it would be idiotic for me to have any other position! While I have only seen the comic reader in video, and I assure you I believe it is less than ideal, I did try a magazine and I wholeheartedly agree with his take on magazines! 100% I would be ecstatic if Amazon took them all down and followed everything he said and in addition added the content their electronic versions are sometimes missing from the print versions to boot! I also find it puzzling that Amazon, a pioneer in eBooks would have even allowed such a situation to pass without setting strict usability guidelines as their content offered directly for sale through Amazon's service on the device directly decides a user's experience with their Kindle Fire.

However I do draw that line at holding Amazon, and the whole range of 7" tablets for that matter, for the display of general web content. This is not content designed exclusively for the Kindle Fire, shit, in many ways this is content not designed for anything! He spent entirely too much time on the web portions when that's clearly not the devices main priority. Further, while Amazon does have sway over the format and layout of magazines on its device it has none over the web, just the option of choosing mobile sites or not. His suggestion that content providers, read any webmaster, make a website for essentially everything was as stupid as someone saying we need to start living in teepees now to stop global warming, despite that having the right effect in both cases there's 0 chance of it happening, he basically wasted breath, the suggestion was stupid and it obviously won't come to pass. I have no problem with him saying the browsing on the Kindle Fire is less than ideal because, well, that's true! But again, that's not the focus, the focus of the device is content you buy through Amazon, books, magazines, music and apps, the web is an also feature. Hell he left out discussing the music portion in any detail and I find it as maddening a UI as can be! He doesn't come across very thorough in this short article.

So in summary, I believe the general HW UX of the Kindle Fire is indeed fair game to him, I disagree with his navigation findings as directional buttons or a touchpad just wasn't really in the design but I think the rest of his gripes in that area were spot on. It was meant to be a touch device and for better and worse it is, he and his users will just have to get over fingerprints like the rest of mankind has. I believe that areas where Amazon is directly serving Kindle Fire content are fair game, therefore his issue with magazines is entirely correct, a few of his findings with books are correct, unless I'm blind I didn't see him mention the music section but I'm sure he'd have a field day as it's a fucking mess. These are what the Kindle Fire is supposed to excel at and it merely gets them done, I'm not opposed to any improvement in them what so ever.

Now, then we have apps and the web, I believe these are off limits to a degree. Again, these are things that the Fire does on the side. It does have a good browser with fine control giving you the option to choose between the full or mobile version of a specific site and frankly I believe that is the best option realistically. Oh of course it would be fantastic if every website from Wal-Mart to some random guy with a Dragon Ball Z fansite also made a version specific to 7" tablets but after pinching myself and coming back to mother Earth I realize that's not in the cards, if forced to choose between mobile and full I choose both for there are times the mobile is too gimped to be the default and times the full desktop is too crowded to be useful. The Kindle Fire does what it realistically can.

I also know that in his line he's aiming at the mass market which means that his concept of right is not necessarily right for a normal able bodied and sound minded man but a fucking moron with fat fingers. I mean, seriously, one of his users tried for minutes to log into Facebook? He's clearly thinking about the LOWEST common denominator here the likes of which even he has to draw the line for somewhere or else he'd rant and rave over how everything sucks because Hellen Keller couldn't use it. So I consider myself a notch above the guy who spent minutes trying to log into Facebook, sure, and frankly I don't want all my websites Fisher Pricerized so that this clown will no longer fumble on a two field web page. This isn't right or wrong we just have differing opinions on where the curve should be between usability for the masses and functionality.

And again, he's not wrong about the general state of the web on the Fire either he's just wrong on it being something that has to be fixed as it doesn't. Concessions are made every day, in every device and tool all across the world, if economics do not kill the 7" tablet than that means people are willing to make concessions while they use a 7inch tablet. I'd love to believe I can have my cake and eat it too but I don't think that will be the case, I believe if you choose a 7 inch tablet you choose a less than ideal web experience. This is again not right or wrong but he doesn't seem to grasp the concept of different priorities between similar products or if he does is intentionally silent on the matter. Every single device has a tradeoff we lost some strengths when we left CRTs and moved to LCDs but we also gained some strengths, since there is no technology that effectively has the strengths of both a CRT monitor and LCD monitor does he propose getting rid of both? It helps to know those strengths and weaknesses but that's the extent of it, to inform the public. We have 2 door cars, 4 door cars, vans, suvs and trucks all with different strengths and weaknesses, again would he hate on them all because they have different uses? Is there a single greatest car that they should all follow? Again, yes people should know the pros and cons but that's the extent. Same with rifles and handguns, or even different loading mechanisms between firearms. Same with laptops, desktops and everything else under the sun. He may actually understand this but if he does it does not come off as such in his article.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

This is exactly what I meant when I said we were approaching Nielsen's column from two entirely different perspectives. He's not "holding Amazon...for the display of general web content" and apps and web can't be "off-limits" for him because he's "discover(ing) design guidelines for companies that are building websites, apps, or content that their customers might access on a Fire." His intent specifically includes those things within the scope of his comments. You can disagree with navigational findings all you want, but his testing has shown that directional buttons are more usable than a pure touch interface. It doesn't matter whether such buttons were "in the design" or not, because as proven through controlled, repeatable testing, those types of buttons are just simply more usable. Amazon is free to ignore his advice to stay "in the design," but that doesn't invalidate the usability issues of that design that Nielsen found.

And you're right, I do like this guy, I've been reading him since the late 90s and I've been reading his partner in his consulting group since the late 80s. I like them because they are trying to make technology more usable. I like them because they are open with their methodology. I like them because they run tests to form their suggestions. But that doesn't mean I blindly accept them. If someone else came out with research-based usability findings than ran counter to Nielsen, I'd seriously consider it. I'd examine methodologies, scope of research, potential bias, etc... before accepting one or the other. The thing is, no one has done that in this case. Yeah, you can deal with the usability issues, however Nielsen's job is to not just accept them, but to point them out so that they can be improved.

 

[Blackhead]

This is exactly what I meant when I said we were approaching Nielsen's column from two entirely different perspectives. He's not "holding Amazon...for the display of general web content" and apps and web can't be "off-limits" for him because he's "discover(ing) design guidelines for companies that are building websites, apps, or content that their customers might access on a Fire." His intent specifically includes those things within the scope of his comments. You can disagree with navigational findings all you want, but his testing has shown that directional buttons are more usable than a pure touch interface. It doesn't matter whether such buttons were "in the design" or not, because as proven through controlled, repeatable testing, those types of buttons are just simply more usable. Amazon is free to ignore his advice to stay "in the design," but that doesn't invalidate the usability issues of that design that Nielsen found.

And you're right, I do like this guy, I've been reading him since the late 90s and I've been reading his partner in his consulting group since the late 80s. I like them because they are trying to make technology more usable. I like them because they are open with their methodology. I like them because they run tests to form their suggestions. But that doesn't mean I blindly accept them. If someone else came out with research-based usability findings than ran counter to Nielsen, I'd seriously consider it. I'd examine methodologies, scope of research, potential bias, etc... before accepting one or the other. The thing is, no one has done that in this case. Yeah, you can deal with the usability issues, however Nielsen's job is to not just accept them, but to point them out so that they can be improved.

Nielsen's audience broadened right at the point where he moved on to

7-Inch Tablet UX Prospects: Great or Terrible

7-inch tablets have either a glorious future or will fail miserably. I doubt there's a middle path in their future...

That's of concern to users as well, not just creators, who would like to know if their purchase is a good investment for the long term. However, his usability testing doesn't give information on these things. Conflating his opinions with usability testing results in the same article is one of the problems causing confusion.

Another problem is that his testing results are being quoted out of context. For example, the link on DaringFireball was presented as follows

Kindle Fire Usability ★

Jakob Nielsen:

The most striking observation from testing the Fire is that everything is much too small on the screen, leading to frequent tap errors and accidental activation. You haven't seen the fat-finger problem in its full glory until you've watched users struggle to touch things on the Fire. One poor guy spent several minutes trying to log in to Facebook, but was repeatedly foiled by accidentally touching the wrong field or button — this on a page with only 2 text fields and 1 button.​

If I hadn't already read the article (followed the link from his alertbox email) I'd think Nielsen was criticizing the Kindle Fire's interface or the Facebook android app or perhaps even the Facebook mobile web app, instead of the full-sized Facebook websites which is primarily designed with a mouse and keyboard in mind. This is situation is not unique to the Kindle. Every touchscreen tablet in some ways suffers from this (try tapping on the GAF next page buttons while browsing on an iPad).

I think his usability testing is spot on but his conclusions are overblown.

 

[mAcOdIn]

This is exactly what I meant when I said we were approaching Nielsen's column from two entirely different perspectives. He's not "holding Amazon...for the display of general web content" and apps and web can't be "off-limits" for him because he's "discover(ing) design guidelines for companies that are building websites, apps, or content that their customers might access on a Fire." His intent specifically includes those things within the scope of his comments. You can disagree with navigational findings all you want, but his testing has shown that directional buttons are more usable than a pure touch interface. It doesn't matter whether such buttons were "in the design" or not, because as proven through controlled, repeatable testing, those types of buttons are just simply more usable. Amazon is free to ignore his advice to stay "in the design," but that doesn't invalidate the usability issues of that design that Nielsen found.

Why are you always bolding stuff as if it makes it more pertinent? The fact of the matter is all websites fall under the nebulous criteria of "might being accessed on a Kindle Fire," so yes I believe I have repeatedly touched on the silliness of such suggestion that one would make to the entire world as to how they should design web content when we can't even get them all to stop catering to Internet Explorer 6 or design stuff for the three aspect ratios of the modern desktop, those being 4:3. 16:10 and 16:9. I'm not foolish enough to say that such a scenario would not be the most beneficial to the end user but I'm also realistic to say such a scenario would be a nightmare upon the web design world and thus isn't going to happen so suggesting that that's the solution is silly and unhelpful. Perhaps from his mighty perspective he can't fathom why anyone wouldn't see this happening, I dunno, not my place to say really, but it's not happening, so what do we do about it if all content will not be redesigned for every screen size? Well he offered two suggestions, one being that the 7inch tablets die, which is possible and the other being the offensively stupid suggestion that it will continue but only because the poor will be forced to use 7 inch tablets which may be partly true if for some reason the market decides to never introduce a cheaper 10 inch model but that has nothing to do with technology, UX or anything of the sort beyond market factors where companies have decided that they'd rather focus on the high end in that form factor as there's absolutely no reason why in 6 months to a year there can not be a stripped own 10 inch tablet. He completely ignores the concept of users prioritizing tasks on specific devices, as you have also failed to do so I guess this is just not relevant or something? Perhaps you both believe in no such thing? I don't know. Doesn't matter.

As far as actual Kindle content, the books, magazines, music and video I have consistently said I already agree with him.

You constantly bold his methodology as if you're shocked someone could discount him or his findings which I find amusing. How in one breath you can say I'm not his target audience and in another state that his testing essentially can not lie I don't know what you're trying to say, perhaps that I'm just not a member of this species? That if I have an opinion it'd be irrelevant? That if I'm not so stupid that I'd spend literal minutes trying to log into facebook's web site on a Kindle Fire I'm not a basic user enough to be considered his audience? If that's the case, thanks, like I said, I don't want everything Fisher Priced to the point the absolute lowest common denominator can use something. I'm not opposed to options being there much like the accessibility option in most modern OSes but I will be damned if those become the norm for the 5% that can't use something, they should be the ones to adapt not the 95%.

As for directional buttons, no one ever claimed they weren't the best, it'd be silly to do so, fuck, he doesn't even need a study to get this info! While we're at it I'll tell him a keyboard is better for typing than a touch screen! I'll also throw in that a mouse is better than a track pad which is better than a trackball which is better than a touch screen for fine navigation, I hope he didn't waste any time on these while he was at it, maybe I just saved him some cash!

So as I said, I don't believe he comes off as the sort that understands the idea of different devices for different tasks and you just willingly seem to lap up that position, fine. I'm sure it's real easy when all you have to do is sit back somewhere and say "this is the best way" and not have to worry about any of the draw backs. You and he don't have to worry about how the much superior buttons would impact the size of the device and the vertical screen real estate you just get to sit there and bitch about there being no buttons. And then when adding in the buttons makes the device now too big vertically to be worth a shit or the screen size too cramped vertically to be worth a shit you can sit back and bitch about the form factor sucking. How fucking helpful, what an intelligent analysis this guy's doing for us all! At this point I feel some of his suggestions are akin to calling for world peace but failing to address any relevant current issue facing the world, it's easy to do, it's right even, but it's not helpful in the slightest and it ignores real world conditions.

You mentioned different consumers sort of when you said I'm not his audience, which I think is correct and I've also mentioned that there's such thing as different devices, which you've ignored but I think is also correct, therefore I don't see why it'd be hard to believe that I find his position on some things rather worthless. It's not so much that I'm trying to say things counter to his research but rather me saying that some of it should be outright dismissed or ignored.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

Why are you always bolding stuff as if it makes it more pertinent?

I'm bolding to draw attention to particular points.

The fact of the matter is all websites fall under the nebulous criteria of "might being accessed on a Kindle Fire," so yes I believe I have repeatedly touched on the silliness of such suggestion that one would make to the entire world as to how they should design web content when we can't even get them all to stop catering to Internet Explorer 6 or design stuff for the three aspect ratios of the modern desktop, those being 4:3. 16:10 and 16:9. I'm not foolish enough to say that such a scenario would not be the most beneficial to the end user but I'm also realistic to say such a scenario would be a nightmare upon the web design world and thus isn't going to happen so suggesting that that's the solution is silly and unhelpful. Perhaps from his mighty perspective he can't fathom why anyone wouldn't see this happening, I dunno, not my place to say really, but it's not happening, so what do we do about it if all content will not be redesigned for every screen size? Well he offered two suggestions, one being that the 7inch tablets die, which is possible and the other being the offensively stupid suggestion that it will continue but only because the poor will be forced to use 7 inch tablets which may be partly true if for some reason the market decides to never introduce a cheaper 10 inch model but that has nothing to do with technology, UX or anything of the sort beyond market factors where companies have decided that they'd rather focus on the high end in that form factor as there's absolutely no reason why in 6 months to a year there can not be a stripped own 10 inch tablet.

Actually, he gives very specific, practical, immediate advice for content providers, "Websites should sniff the user-agent code and automatically serve up the mobile version when accessed from a 7-inch tablet." (emp. in original) In the long term, if the 7" form factor represents a significant portion of a content provider's audience, "Optimize for 7-inch or die." (emp. in original) That's not because he wants to make web designers' life hell, it's because he has found through testing that users won't use content that isn't usable.

He completely ignores the concept of users prioritizing tasks on specific devices, as you have also failed to do so I guess this is just not relevant or something? Perhaps you both believe in no such thing? I don't know. Doesn't matter.

What!? Sure users prioritize tasks on specific devices. That doesn't negate usability issues for secondary tasks, task which are never the less a major selling point of the device.

You constantly bold his methodology as if you're shocked someone could discount him or his findings which I find amusing.

I'm bolding his methodology to draw attention and contrast it to your methodology. That is to say, he's run controlled usability tests which show usability issues while you make excuses for the usability issues because the device is cheap and the issues are on secondary tasks.

How in one breath you can say I'm not his target audience and in another state that his testing essentially can not lie I don't know what you're trying to say, perhaps that I'm just not a member of this species? That if I have an opinion it'd be irrelevant?

He is writing to people interested in improving the usability of technology. You are treating his column as if it's a review or a buyer's guide or something. "It's not that bad," "that's a secondary task," "buttons weren't in the design," etc... are excuses for the usability issues that serve no purpose the his audience of people who want to make sure their content is usable. To that audience, yeah, your excuses are irrelevant because their users will still be statistically more likely to fail at their intended task.

That if I'm not so stupid that I'd spend literal minutes trying to log into facebook's web site on a Kindle Fire I'm not a basic user enough to be considered his audience? If that's the case, thanks, like I said, I don't want everything Fisher Priced to the point the absolute lowest common denominator can use something. I'm not opposed to options being there much like the accessibility option in most modern OSes but I will be damned if those become the norm for the 5% that can't use something, they should be the ones to adapt not the 95%.

This is a common complaint leveled at Nielsen, that if his suggestions were carried to their extremes, you'd end up in the online equivalent to a padded Fisher Price-esque room. (Of course just about anything carried to its extreme is going to be awful.) But even his least experienced test subject had a year and a half of experience with touchscreen smartphones. This isn't the semi-retarded 5% of the population that can barely tie their shoes, the target population of this test already has experience with screens smaller than the Fire.

So as I said, I don't believe he comes off as the sort that understands the idea of different devices for different tasks and you just willingly seem to lap up that position, fine.

And I don't believe you come off as the sort that understands the idea that different content is written for different audiences.

I'm sure it's real easy when all you have to do is sit back somewhere and say "this is the best way" and not have to worry about any of the draw backs. You and he don't have to worry about how the much superior buttons would impact the size of the device and the vertical screen real estate you just get to sit there and bitch about there being no buttons. And then when adding in the buttons makes the device now too big vertically to be worth a shit or the screen size too cramped vertically to be worth a shit you can sit back and bitch about the form factor sucking. How fucking helpful, what an intelligent analysis this guy's doing for us all! At this point I feel some of his suggestions are akin to calling for world peace but failing to address any relevant current issue facing the world, it's easy to do, it's right even, but it's not helpful in the slightest and it ignores real world conditions.

So because there are trade offs for various solutions, we should ignore the usability issues a particular solution introduces?

You mentioned different consumers sort of when you said I'm not his audience, which I think is correct and I've also mentioned that there's such thing as different devices, which you've ignored but I think is also correct, therefore I don't see why it'd be hard to believe that I find his position on some things rather worthless. It's not so much that I'm trying to say things counter to his research but rather me saying that some of it should be outright dismissed or ignored.

Of course there are different devices. Web browsing is the third bulleted feature for the Fire. Pointing out it's usability issues in order to give content providers guidelines on how to address those issues is totally fair game. His research found that, for example, full fledged sites can present usability issues, instead of addressing that issue, you want to dismiss and/or ignore his research!?

Finally, let me return to this for a second:

...the Fire has some real issues, issues that yes for 200 bucks I can work around but should not have to and would be happy if they were fixed in the next revision.

This - THIS - is why Nielsen wrote the article, to discover the usability issues so that designers have guidelines to work around them for now and so that they can be fixed in the next revision.

 

[BrettWeir]

I gotta say, I was expecting to see a lot more variety in cases for the Fire.

 

[Blackhead]

Actually, he gives very specific, practical, immediate advice for content providers, "Websites should sniff the user-agent code and automatically serve up the mobile version when accessed from a 7-inch tablet." (emp. in original) In the long term, if the 7" form factor represents a significant portion of a content provider's audience, "Optimize for 7-inch or die." (emp. in original) That's not because he wants to make web designers' life hell, it's because he has found through testing that users won't use content that isn't usable.

That's actually horrible advice—anyone who advocates code based on user-agent sniffing should be burned in a fire. The users of course already have the ability to switch between the mobile and desktop user-agents and as such there is no need to force them to only use the mobile website. Ideally website developers should be using a flexible grid for a responsive web design instead of user-agent sniffing.

 

[hoos30]

Sorry if I missed this somehow; did a search and didn't find anything.

I picked up a KF yesterday as a Christmas gift for my daughter. I was setting it up before wrapping it, only to find that there are no apparent or effective Parental Controls on this thing at all. This means that:

1) there is no way to keep her from purposefully or accidently making purchases in the store (and with AMZN's stupid '1-click' thing this is all too easy) and
2) There is no way keep all the content that I purchased for my original Kindle from showing up on hers.

The controls that are there supposedly control "in-app" purchases only.

The only "workaround" I've seen so far is to create an entirely new Amazon account for the KF and use gift cards and such to fund it. But then I can't share the books with her that I do want her to read.

Oversight or deviousness on Amazon's part?

 

[Emerson]

Personally I don't think a child who's not old enough or responsible enough to not buy shit randomly should be getting a tablet (regardless of brand or price).

 

[BFIB]

Sorry if I missed this somehow; did a search and didn't find anything.

I picked up a KF yesterday as a Christmas gift for my daughter. I was setting it up before wrapping it, only to find that there are no apparent or effective Parental Controls on this thing at all. This means that:

1) there is no way to keep her from purposefully or accidently making purchases in the store (and with AMZN's stupid '1-click' thing this is all too easy) and
2) There is no way keep all the content that I purchased for my original Kindle from showing up on hers.

The controls that are there supposedly control "in-app" purchases only.

The only "workaround" I've seen so far is to create an entirely new Amazon account for the KF and use gift cards and such to fund it. But then I can't share the books with her that I do want her to read.

Oversight or deviousness on Amazon's part?

Couldn't you register the Kindle Fire in your name, then transfer the books you want her to read onto the device. Deregister the device (I believe the books will remain on there), then just use gift cards to maintain her balance?

 

[Squirrel Killer]

That's actually horrible advice—anyone who advocates code based on user-agent sniffing should be burned in a fire. The users of course already have the ability to switch between the mobile and desktop user-agents and as such there is no need to force them to only use the mobile website. Ideally website developers should be using a flexible grid for a responsive web design instead of user-agent sniffing.

Ideally, yes, a design should be flexible enough to accommodate various usages. Nielsen wouldn't object to optimizing a site on the fly like that. But if you have a site today, and you see that 95% of your Fire visitors bounce vs 25% of your combined Other users, what are you going to do in the short term to fix that? There are cases where user agent sniffing helps usability, the key is to always allow an end user to choose to go to the full-featured (or whatever) version.

 

[hoos30]

Couldn't you register the Kindle Fire in your name, then transfer the books you want her to read onto the device. Deregister the device (I believe the books will remain on there), then just use gift cards to maintain her balance?

I'll have to check, but I think that when I deregistered the device yesterday, the apps that I bought were still on there, but the books went away. Not ideal. And yes, it looks like I'm either going to send it back or have to fund it using gift cards.

 

[T.M. MacReady]

Amazon designed it to be personal, thats why it comes registered to your account out of the box and says your name at the top.

And they also probably want to discourage sharing content. It sounds like this isn't really a good fit based on what you're looking for.

 

[hoos30]

Personally I don't think a child who's not old enough or responsible enough to not buy shit randomly should be getting a tablet (regardless of brand or price).

You sound like my wife, and you might be right too!

I'm trying to justify it to myself because all of her friends have DSes. "At least she can read books on it, right?" "And stay off my phone". But the lack of controls is kinda pissing me off a bit.

 

[mAcOdIn]

Actually, he gives very specific, practical, immediate advice for content providers, "Websites should sniff the user-agent code and automatically serve up the mobile version when accessed from a 7-inch tablet." (emp. in original) In the long term, if the 7" form factor represents a significant portion of a content provider's audience, "Optimize for 7-inch or die." (emp. in original) That's not because he wants to make web designers' life hell, it's because he has found through testing that users won't use content that isn't usable.

Which I said is stupid because the mobile site is many times equally or more ass than the full site! Also, if he's "found" that users will not use content that's not usable, which is technically a given given the idea of "usable" just what is his standard of usable as people in fact do use devices to view content in manners that are less than ideal, so what exactly is unusable?

What!? Sure users prioritize tasks on specific devices. That doesn't negate usability issues for secondary tasks, task which are never the less a major selling point of the device.

I think when they are outside the realm of control they sure as hell do.

I'm bolding his methodology to draw attention and contrast it to your methodology. That is to say, he's run controlled usability tests which show usability issues while you make excuses for the usability issues because the device is cheap and the issues are on secondary tasks.

You're not getting it, I'm not finding issue with his methodology I'm finding issue with what he's researching. Also I'm not making excuses because of the Fire's price I'm laying down facts because of its form factor! If this was a price issue and not a form factor issue instead I'd be trying to play down or agree with the loss of a camera, gps, 3g and shit like that, it has nothing to do with cost and everything to do with the fucking size. He half gets it, almost, you can see it bleed through a little in his writing when he contrasts it to other sized tablets just for him to lose the plot again.

He is writing to people interested in improving the usability of technology. You are treating his column as if it's a review or a buyer's guide or something. "It's not that bad," "that's a secondary task," "buttons weren't in the design," etc... are excuses for the usability issues that serve no purpose the his audience of people who want to make sure their content is usable. To that audience, yeah, your excuses are irrelevant because their users will still be statistically more likely to fail at their intended task.

Again, now you're both missing the point and it's approaching religious levels of zealotry. There is no way to improve everything, you improve it's web access and you take away from its portability, you improve its navigation by adding face buttons and you hamper it's screen or again hamper its portability, you minimize the weight and you hamper the experience by reducing the components that can be used he, and by extension you, ignore everything about reality in pursuit of a perfect ideal the likes of which can't even exist! This is why he's a UX expert and not actually out there designing shit because to me he comes off as half retarded. Again, it's extremely easy to sit there and say "my users demand buttons so buttons are the only way" because sure, he doesn't have to fucking worry about putting them there, it has no buttons so his puts a little x in his column and moves on. At times I should be thankful he's at least using it for what it's intended, both primarily and secondary as I half expect him to start rating the back side on it's use as a cutting board for vegetables and the screen as a signaling mirror when out in the wilderness. It has nothing to do with the Kindle Fire on the whole, the few times he was specific to the Fire, mainly the magazine section I agreed with him, it has to do with the concept of a 7 inch tablet.

That some of his users don't get it or have too much difficulty is besides the point because that's why there's fucking 10 inch tablets too! he shouldn't even be bothering with arguing about whether a 7 inch tablet can work, he should be looking at it saying "what can we do to improve the 7 inch tablet." That the web will be less than ideal on it is a given. That there's no buttons or keyboard is less of a given, depending on which buttons we're talking about and why it actually works in the size it is. These aren't fucking excuses these are calculated trade offs for a different form factor. Not everyone's supposed to want a 7 inch tablet.

This is a common complaint leveled at Nielsen, that if his suggestions were carried to their extremes, you'd end up in the online equivalent to a padded Fisher Price-esque room. (Of course just about anything carried to its extreme is going to be awful.) But even his least experienced test subject had a year and a half of experience with touchscreen smartphones. This isn't the semi-retarded 5% of the population that can barely tie their shoes, the target population of this test already has experience with screens smaller than the Fire.

Several things, for an author that uses hyperbole to make his point I think it only fair that I do the same, he did it first and you can take that study to the bank. Second, experience doesn't mean competence, touch screens are fucking prevalent as hell and it'd be hard to find a user without touch screen experience. Without knowing the candidates one really can't say anything about them, of course for these types of studies I'm not sure that matters, probably not in fact as the more people that can use it the better by most accounts.

And I don't believe you come off as the sort that understands the idea that different content is written for different audiences.

Oh I very much do but if it's not written for us then why would you even link us to it? You clearly wanted some discussion on the matter so if none here are fit to actually discuss it and it's not written for us either just what are your intentions here?

So because there are trade offs for various solutions, we should ignore the usability issues a particular solution introduces?

Yes. Like I said, everything has trade offs, everything. For him and his users certain aspects may be more important than portability, for instance I'm grateful for the size and do not want another inch or so added to make room for buttons nor do I want to lose that space on the screen for the buttons, I'm no more wrong or right than any of his users nor is this a UX best practice guideline issue or anything of the sort. He does much the same when he's thankful for the lack of a keyboard which would in any scenario except something truly shitty like the Palm Pre's keyboard be superior to the touch screen but he has allowed that concession himself because he weighed the decisions. Good on him, now if only you two would allow us the same privilege.

I actually have no objections to him mentioning things as I do believe that cons, even if the cons are matter of fact and by design, as I believe that everyone has the right to know what they're getting into. If on the other hand you're going to wrap it up in a bow and say something like "disappointingly poor user experience" well then I start to take a bit more issue with how much weight you put to each issue.

Of course there are different devices. Web browsing is the third bulleted feature for the Fire. Pointing out it's usability issues in order to give content providers guidelines on how to address those issues is totally fair game. His research found that, for example, full fledged sites can present usability issues, instead of addressing that issue, you want to dismiss and/or ignore his research!?

Sigh. I wish you'd read everything I say as we're just going in circles. I take issue not with his guidelines as a whole but with who his concept of a content provider is. He did not even need to do any research to find that full fledged sites can provide usability issues but nonetheless he's correct. I don't even mind him pointing it out as I've said repeatedly and I believe as I've said here prior along with a lot of other people. I do however take issue with him then tying that issue to the Amazon web browser and then by extension to the Fire itself and doing so with silly statements like maybe Amazon did it on purpose.

He, on several occasions, passes the line of an objective reviewer into fanboy territory himself. He's free to do so of course but then so am I. I'd like to say again, I'm not exactly on the Kindle Fire's side but I am 100% on the 7" tablet side. He of course likes to paint the picture where the device can only succeed spectacularly or fail miserably and honestly, just like he himself said, that's beyond his scope. The 7inch tablets are selling enough where you can tell that some people do want them so pointing out guidelines that will not and can not be followed like his web guidelines is counter productive, essentially arguing away the form factor which is what you do when you want them to start adding things to its size is also counter productive. If he were truly impartial he'd worry not about whether it's the best size period but how to make it the best it can be within its size.

And the only reason I even bother going back and forth is because frankly I take offense to the mentality that there is a right way to do every form factor. I, for instance, wouldn't mind one iota if there was a different 7 inch tablet exactly like the Fire but with navigational buttons, maybe it'd be a bit taller or have a shorter screen, don't know which, don't care which, if it sells enough I support the option because I believe in options. He comes at this from a fairly unitarian point of view, that is, "my research shows that you must have buttons therefore you must have buttons" but I don't want face buttons on my device! And it's not because I'm making an excuse or anything of the sort but just because I don't want any fucking buttons on the front. But he, and you, dismiss that. You two are the only people I've ever came across that are basically saying my desires for what I want to spend my money on is factually wrong. No one else does this, you don't even bother giving a reach around like I did with the accessibility options statement earlier. So yeah, I take issue with it.

I mean, when you get down to it the only two things I've actually argued against his article is the damn navigation buttons and how heavily he weighed the web and what, if anything, should be done about, and even went further by bitching about the music app which he didn't touch upon, but it seems that common ground is not enough! I must be 100% correct or 100% wrong but there's no place for me or anyone like me in the middle so since I argue these two points we must go round and round until I submit to his mighty credentials.

This - THIS - is why Nielsen wrote the article, to discover the usability issues so that designers have guidelines to work around them for now and so that they can be fixed in the next revision.

That's great and all, now if he'd merely focus on the parts they have control over, should have control over and leave the silliness out.

Oversight or deviousness on Amazon's part?

I think it's more along the side of laziness. Not that I think Amazon hasn't also been devious, not even allowing their browser to look at the Android Market is fucking deviouse but you're issue I believe is one they just didn't get around to. I mean, it can't be an oversight as surely someone in their software department brought it to their attention as it's fucking obvious, especially when you factor in how they've pushed children's books but I don't think it was deviousness either, just plain old laziness.

Amazon designed it to be personal, thats why it comes registered to your account out of the box and says your name at the top.

And they also probably want to discourage sharing content. It sounds like this isn't really a good fit based on what you're looking for.

Well I still think it was lazy to not have parental controls you make a good point at the end, does the new Nook Tablet, or the original for that matter, offer parental controls? I believe they have sharing so you could buy the stuff on your account and lend it to them but I'm not positive about that as it might just be their eReader that has that feature.

Anyways, this practice of the weaker eReaders having functions their bigger more powerful tablets do not has got to stop, where the fuck is my Kindle Collections on my Fire Amazon?

 

[hoos30]

Couldn't you register the Kindle Fire in your name, then transfer the books you want her to read onto the device. Deregister the device (I believe the books will remain on there), then just use gift cards to maintain her balance?

Either I'm a dummy or this shit is going back to the store. (I'll admit, both could be true).

I set up a separate Amazon Account.
I funded this new account by purchasing a gift card.
I redeemed the gift card in the new account (Balance shows as $15).
I go to the App Store to purchase "Angry Birds". Message says, "There was an error Purchasing 'Angry Birds'. Please click here, blah, blah."
I click there and the site is telling me that I need to set up a credit card.

Why do I need a credit card if I have an account balance??

 

[Squirrel Killer]

I'm going to try to break down the walls of text we're throwing at each and try to get to the key issues. My apologies if I miss a point or two:

Again, now you're both missing the point and it's approaching religious levels of zealotry.

If you have a source that says the usability issues Nielsen identified aren't usability issues, I'm all ears. Someone is approaching religious levels of zealotry, but it's not me.

...it's extremely easy to sit there and say "my users demand buttons so buttons are the only way"

One of the interesting things about UX is that listening to user demands is a great way to make a terrible interface. That's why a usability expert studies user behaviors in addition to what they say to figure out what's really usable in practice.

...experience doesn't mean competence, touch screens are fucking prevalent as hell and it'd be hard to find a user without touch screen experience.

I'm sorry, but if a year and a half of experience with an Android smartphone or iPhone doesn't make you competent enough to be a valid test subject for a Kindle Fire, then the Fire has more serious usability problems than Nielsen claims.

Oh I very much do but if it's not written for us then why would you even link us to it? You clearly wanted some discussion on the matter so if none here are fit to actually discuss it and it's not written for us either just what are your intentions here?

As I said, I thought it was funny how some people let their devotion to a device blind them to legitimate findings from a respected expert.

I do however take issue with him then tying that issue to the Amazon web browser and then by extension to the Fire itself and doing so with silly statements like maybe Amazon did it on purpose.

He actually noted a specific Silk browser behavior that negatively impacted usability.

I take offense to the mentality that there is a right way to do every form factor.... You two are the only people I've ever came across that are basically saying my desires for what I want to spend my money on is factually wrong.

Neither him nor I are saying you are wrong for wanting a device. Love your device, be one with it, that's wonderful. He is just saying that the device you want has usability issues and that if you develop content and want it to be used by Fire users, you might want to take his advice under consideration.

I must be 100% correct or 100% wrong but there's no place for me or anyone like me in the middle so since I argue these two points we must go round and round until I submit to his mighty credentials.

If you have a source that says the usability issues Nielsen identified aren't usability issues, I'm all ears. Instead, you keep saying that you don't want navigation buttons and Amazon doesn't control the web. YOU'RE RIGHT! 100% even. But that doesn't make the usability issues of navigation and web usage go away!

 

[kazinova]

I love it when a thread devolves into massive walls of arguing between two or three people. I love the internet.

 

[Gattsu25]

From the gaming side:

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2011/12/07/onlive-bring-l-a-noire-batman-arkham-city-to-tablets

I shit you not.

After making its original announcement at this year's E3, OnLive has released a new update to its Android and iOS app to bring PC-quality high-definition gameplay to a wide range of smartphones, media players and tablet, including the iPhone, iPad, iPod touch and even the Kindle Fire.

Available on Thursday, December 8, the new app will add complete gameplay support for any game offered on the service, which includes some of the richest, most graphically intensive titles available, such as Batman Arkham City, L.A. Noire, Assassin's Creed: Revelations and more.

While the previous version of the app only allowed users to peruse the OnLive marketplace and access the social features of the service, now they can play any game, any time they have access to Wi-Fi or even 3G and 4G LTE connections with a minimum speed of just 1Mbps. For HD resolutions, OnLive recommends users have connection speeds of anywhere between 3Mbps and 5Mbps.

In order to make the experience possible, OnLive has adapted over 25 titles to support a new on-screen overlay that replicates the analog sticks and buttons you would normally find on a controller. Titles that support this feature include DiRT 3, Virtua Tennis 2009, Lara Croft and the Guardians of Light and more.

Additionally, the company partnered with publishers to bring new native touchscreen controls to the OnLive versions of their titles. Five titles will be adapted for mobile controls initially, including Defense Grid Gold and most notably, L.A. Noire.

Unlike the OnLive-produced overlay implemented in other titles, Rockstar is custom tailoring the version of L.A. Noire available on the service to incorporate gesture controls, on-screen cues and more. When investigating crime scenes, users will be able to swipe across the screen to rotate bodies and tap to pick up objects.


For those who'd prefer a more traditional gaming experience, OnLive has produced a new Universal Controller that pairs with tablets and smartphones via Bluetooth, Wi-Fi and other wireless standards. When combined with an iOS or Android device running the OnLive app, the Universal Controller provides complete dual analog controls, triggers, and action buttons with low-latency performance.

The controller can also be used with the Xbox 360, PS3, PC, Mac or OnLive's MicroConsole using a USB dongle. Up to four Universal Controllers can be paired with a single USB transmitter.

The app will be free and is expected to be released on the Android Market and the iTunes App Store tomorrow. Users can order the Universal Controller for $49.99.

To learn more about the new OnLive app, check out our hands-on impressions.ssions.

I... wow. That's just incredible

 

[KamenSenshi]

Well that is certainly awesome and totally unexpected. Kinds hilarious also. I like Onlive though so I'll give it a shot. The fact that this has an actual controller means more people may give it a shot also. I wouldn't mind if more studios put in the effort that LA Noir is supposed to be getting, depending on how this plays out.

 

[Gattsu25]

Well that is certainly awesome and totally unexpected. Kinds hilarious also. I like Onlive though so I'll give it a shot.

Yeah, I'm pretty excited. I like OnLive as a service so this is good news for me. I hope the picture quality doesn't take a drastic hit.

 

[KamenSenshi]

I would hope that the quality is at least where it is when streaming a video from Amazon, or close since in this case there is input to account for I guess. Meet that expectation and I'm happy.

 

[Husker86]

Does anyone with a Fire use Pinterest? I can't decide between an e-ink Kindle or Fire for my girlfriend for Christmas. I think she would like the Fire for the extras (though I still want to get e-ink into her hands sometime) and would definitely appreciate being able to use Pinterest. If pinning doesn't work, does it at least look ok while browsing?

Thanks!

 

[hoos30]

Either I'm a dummy or this shit is going back to the store. (I'll admit, both could be true).

I set up a separate Amazon Account.
I funded this new account by purchasing a gift card.
I redeemed the gift card in the new account (Balance shows as $15).
I go to the App Store to purchase "Angry Birds". Message says, "There was an error Purchasing 'Angry Birds'. Please click here, blah, blah."
I click there and the site is telling me that I need to set up a credit card.

Why do I need a credit card if I have an account balance??

I ended up returning mine to the store. Maybe one Amazon will get around to adding real Parental Controls to this thing. I liked it otherwise.

 

[BFIB]

Downloaded the .apk file for OnLive this morning, been checking out some videos and whatnot. Going to order the controller later today when it goes live, but so far, everything looks good.

 

[bangai-o]

Downloaded the .apk file for OnLive this morning, been checking out some videos and whatnot. Going to order the controller later today when it goes live, but so far, everything looks good.

can you explain how to do this in a way you would to a 3rd grader. I dont see it on Amazon. also do Fire users have to buy a usb to mini usb adapter for the controller?

 

[KamenSenshi]

can you explain how to do this in a way you would to a 3rd grader. I dont see it on Amazon. also do Fire users have to buy a usb to mini usb adapter for the controller?

If you have an androidphone download it from the market place to the android phone and download astro file manager on the kindle fire and the phone. once it's installed on the phone use astro file manager to make a backup. plug your phone into your computer and look into the backups folder for the file manager and get the apk. copy it to the fire and use the file manager on the fire to install it. it isn't on the amazon app store yet so this is the only way to do it for now by side loading it. It will be on amazon store in january.

 

[bangai-o]

If you have an androidphone download it from the market place to the android phone and download astro file manager on the kindle fire and the phone. once it's installed on the phone use astro file manager to make a backup. plug your phone into your computer and look into the backups folder for the file manager and get the apk. copy it to the fire and use the file manager on the fire to install it.

i see. can i get the apk. just on PC?

 

[KamenSenshi]

I'm sure it's out on some site but I haven't heard where. This is where google comes into play, I wouldn't know where to point you for the apk other than that.

 

[BFIB]

I can post the .apk here if its ok. Not sure if thats against the rules or not. Its easy to find, just google "OnLive .apk"

But anyway, here's a quick walkthrough on how to get any android file over to the Kindle, using a PC:

1. On the Kindle Fire, download "ES File Explorer". Its free on the Amazon Marketplace
2. On your PC desktop, create a file, you can call it whatever you want, I called mine "Downloaded Apps"
3. Plug in your Kindle via microUSB (If you have a regular Kindle, that USB cable will work).
4. Your Kindle Fire should go into USB mode. If not, just click up on the notifications, and enable it
5. Your files on the Kindle Fire should pop up. Go ahead and create another folder in the Kindle Fire root folder called "AndroidApps (or whatever you want it to be)"
6. Begin downloading whatever .apk you are looking for. Put it in the "Downloaded Apps" folder on your desktop
7. Copy over whatever .apk files you downloaded into the "Downloaded Apps" folder on your desktop to the Kindle Fire, under "Android Apps"
8. Unplug your Kindle Fire from your PC, and open the "ES File Explorer" app. It should pull up all of the folders, including "AndroidApps". Then click on the "Android Apps" folder. Any transferred .apk files will show up here
9. Just click the .apk file, and click install. If not, check under the Device setting in the settings options on the Kindle Fire and click the "allow applications from third party" or something to that effect.

That's it. The file should download, and be ready to use. Just open it up on your homepage, and your good to go. Keep in mind that any 3rd party app you sideload, it will have a pixelated icon on the homepage. Hopefully Amazon fixes this in a further update.

 

[CzarTim]

I was able to download the apk straight to the fire, and it installed.

 

[Stinkles]

All this Neilsen arguing, I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the Fire is more comfortable to hold than an iPad - the weight, rubberized back and even the slight rubber gasket around the bezel are infinitely more comfortable than the iPad's slippery, rounded surface and obvious heft.

All the other complaints are legit however, but weight and grip on Fire are way better than weight and grip in iPad. No question.

I mean for reading, specifically.

 

[KilgoreTrout]

So, what was he testing, the web page or the kindle?

Usability tests are fairly simple procedure. You give someone an interface (physical and/or digital), and a bunch of tasks to complete (so he's testing both). You ask them to think out loud as they go along to get qualitative data.
A successful interface is judged upon whether these tasks are completed by the user, and enjoyed by them.

Nielsen's tests are typically larger groups of people so significance doesn't come into question.

As for anyone questioning his ability, if you ask anyone in the tech industry who comes to mind when they think about usability, I guarantee you'll hear Nielsen's name more than any other.

 

[Kingbrave]

I think someone stole my Fire. Is there anything I can do to help find who stole it?