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[timmyp53]

ok let's do this again

after "what happen after FF7?"
"what happen after Zelda OOT?"
"what happen after Assassin's Creed 2"
"what happen after super mario bros 3?"

here it is, the new "nostalgia" topic that will ruin the future of the saga of metal gear games.

 

[Palette Swap]

I'm always uneasy in assigning blame or credit to particular staff members because of external observations, but I do 100% agree with the observations comprehensively laid out in the OP.

I still loved MGSV, but it was a mess, and I'm ready to let go of the series. As much as I hate the way it happened, it's probably better for everyone that there won't be another Kojima MGS. Either because the series will miraculously come back to life, or because the good parts of MGSV didn't really need an MGS game to work.

 

[border]

The female character designs have always had a a decidedly pervy slant, starting with SniperWolf's plunging neckline in MGS1. Fortune pretty much wears a swimsuit throughout MGS2. Eva's neckline is even deeper in MGS3, and Kojima inexplicably has The Boss whip her jugs out during what's supposed to be an emotional scene.

As technology got better and characters could be made more legitimately sexualized, Kojima just rolled with it. I'm not sure if the staff changes really had that much to do with it.

 

[domlolz]

I consider myself a "hardcore" fan and I completely agree with the OP. How about you explain your point (like the OP did)?

edit: or like the post above me

well i disagree entirely with the basis of the thread. mgs has been a consistently good series, there hasn't been a decline in quality even though i personally feel mgs4 is the weakest in the series this is entirely down to subjective reasons like the retconning that mgs5 didnt indulge in thankfully. theres no decline after mgs3, at least not objectively like the op seems to think.

i really dislike the general consensus/discussion on neogaf regarding mgs5 its really tainted by the disdain of quiet, who isnt even that egregious, completely minimising what the game does right with its narrative and its gameplay.

and theres some points in the op that are nonsense like the anti-americanism one, did you play ground zeroes?

I think you're exaggerating the positives of MGS1-3. There's plenty of bad writing and cornball cutscenes in those games. If anything it seems like technological constraints were the real factor in all the things you've pointed out.

MGSV was fucking great anyway, and I'm glad Kojima is moving away from aping cinema in favor of a gameplay-centric approach. This is even reflected in the mission statement of the new Kojima Productions.

yeah this too

 

[domlolz]

ok let's do this again

after "what happen after FF7?"
"what happen after Zelda OOT?"
"what happen after Assassin's Creed 2"
"what happen after super mario bros 3?"

here it is, the new "nostalgia" topic that will ruin the future of the saga of metal gear games.

agreed

 

[dan2026]

The best parts of MGSVs story are in audio tapes...

What the fuck were they thinking?

 

[The Silver]

The female character designs have always had a a decidedly pervy slant, starting with SniperWolf's plunging neckline in MGS1. Fortune pretty much wears a swimsuit throughout MGS2. Eva's neckline is even deeper in MGS3, and Kojima inexplicably has The Boss whip her jugs out during what's supposed to be an emotional scene.

As technology got better and characters could be made more legitimately sexualized, Kojima just rolled with it. I'm not sure if the staff changes really had that much to do with it.

There's a big damn jump between the portrayal of female characters from MGS3 to MGS4.

The former games had nothing as egregious as the B&B unit, straight up non characters who exist to be "tragic" and sexy.

 

[Ridley327]

The best parts of MGSVs story are in audio tapes...

What the fuck were they thinking?

Honest question: would the information you found out in those important tapes been any more effective in the traditional MGS cutscene formula for info dumps, which involved two parties talking with each other while slideshows cut in every so often? With the way people go on about the tapes, you would think that every cutscene in the series prior was on the same level as Snake chasing after RAY at the end of MGS2.

 

[Zebetite]

metal gear solid 4 is, bar none, the most personally disappointing game i have ever played.

it's a turgid, festering mess of a video game. everything about it is, to me, metal gear at its absolute worst. everything that made the first three some of my favorite games of all time is gone, with nothing of value to replace it.

i've managed to enjoy every subsequent game a decent bit more than mgs4, but i definitely feel like mgs4 was the breaking point where the series lost something and never got it back.

its always nice to know i'm not alone on this and that these feelings are valid.

 

[domlolz]

The best parts of MGSVs story are in audio tapes...

What the fuck were they thinking?

thats probably the most significant difference between pre and post mgs3 metal gear, making codecs voluntary

 

[JayEH]

Honest question: would the information you found out in those important tapes been any more effective in the traditional MGS cutscene formula for info dumps, which involved two parties talking with each other while slideshows cut in every so often? With the way people go on about the tapes, you would think that every cutscene in the series prior was on the same level as Snake chasing after RAY at the end of MGS2.

Yeah that's very true. I replayed one and two recently and didn't really notice it until then.

 

[Edzi]

Good write up OP, I especially agree with points 4 and 5. The biggest thing that bothered me about the evolution of the series after MGS3 was the way Big Boss's story took a nosedive starting with PW. I'll repost a modified version of a comment I left in the MGSV spoiler thread that outlines part of what really ruined the MGSV story and twist for me:

Thinking back on the Venom twist, I think the primary thing that ruins it for me isn't really part of MGSV at all Instead, but how the baggage from PW affects it. The point of no return for the MGS story is the PW story and how it taints everything that came before and after it, since that's the game that ruined Big Boss/The Boss's characters and the overall plot. It feels like tying V back to PW legitimizes what that game did to them, which is ultimately what I found most annoying.

Everyone loves the ending of MGS3, because on top of being intense and emotional, it leaves you with all the pieces to the Big Boss puzzle. He is disillusioned with the world/government and so goes down a dark path BECAUSE of his reverence for The Boss and what happened to her. But then PW undermines all of that by not only unnecessarily filling in gaps that didn't need to be filled, but also completely erasing his original implied motivation and instead reintroducing (a fake) The Boss and having Big Boss completely regress as a character only to come to the complete opposite conclusion at the end of the game, when he this time REJECTS The Boss and decides he will now go on his dark path because for some reason he thinks The Boss betrayed him.

The fact that this new interpretation paints how you view MGSV is probably what most affects my perception of V's twist as well as the BB storyline of the whole series post MGS3/PO. I actually kind of like the idea of an older and post MGS3 BB being an asshole and unknowingly becoming what he hates by doing to Venom what the government did to his mentor (Though at the same time, I don't think what he did with Venom is exactly the same as what happened to The Boss). But when you start looking at this through PW's retelling of Big Boss's motivations, it just becomes way less satisfying. Now he's acting like a dick because he doesn't care about The Boss anymore and what was done to her, and he may actually be reenacting The Boss's manipulation somewhat intentionally. Without PW, I think the MGSV twist could have been alright, but Kojima's apathy towards creating a consistent narrative caught up to him and I don't think that the lore can recover from that.

I don't think Kojima ever really cared about creating a consistent narrative, but after MGS3 is when he really stopped caring about any of his established characters or lore and decided to start retroactively ruining them for the hell of it. I don't know how much the other writers had to do with it, but I don't think anyone can deny that post MGS3 MGS rubs a lot of fans the wrong way. MGS1-3 (and even PO) were okay with retconning sometimes, but they seemed to still have some degree of respect for the characters and lore they were dealing with. Starting with 4 though, that seemed to get thrown out the window for whatever reason.

The evolution of the gameplay also has a pretty clear changing point from mgs3 to mgs4, but that stuff didn't bother me nearly as much as how the story and characters were butchered.

 

[pbayne]

The series has made it clear that given the right situation anybody can be a "legend". As far as it being some "random dude" you really have to pull back and realize it's just some meta BS about how the player has been there from the beginning and I say that as someone who likes the twist lol.

Spoiler

But then why not get any jobber from diamond dogs for les efannts terribles? I mean Venom makes Big Boss's involvement seem almost meaningless.

I can agree with you on the meta sense it is interesting but lore wise that's a massive oversight to me.

 

[The Silver]

Honest question: would the information you found out in those important tapes been any more effective in the traditional MGS cutscene formula for info dumps, which involved two parties talking with each other while slideshows cut in every so often? With the way people go on about the tapes, you would think that every cutscene in the series prior was on the same level as Snake chasing after RAY at the end of MGS2.

to me yes they would

 

[Guess Who]

The female character designs have always had a a decidedly pervy slant, starting with SniperWolf's plunging neckline in MGS1. Fortune pretty much wears a swimsuit throughout MGS2. Eva's neckline is even deeper in MGS3, and Kojima inexplicably has The Boss whip her jugs out during what's supposed to be an emotional scene.

As technology got better and characters could be made more legitimately sexualized, Kojima just rolled with it. I'm not sure if the staff changes really had that much to do with it.

This is just boiling down the OP's complaint to sexualization though, when it's really about characterization. Like, EVA was sexualized, but she was also a fully-realized character with a personality, with motivations, with goals and feelings and regrets. Even her sexualization makes sense in context of what she's doing and why, and not in a "b-but she has to breathe through her ginormous titties" sense. Sure, I totally agree that The Boss's C-section scar going up to her tits makes absolutely no anatomical sense, but she's also arguably the best-written woman in the series otherwise (though PW certainly did its best to try to fuck that up, too).

Meanwhile you got shit like The Beauty and the Beast unit that exists solely so Kojima could mo-cap some sexy models dancing to J-pop and walking around on all fours with their ass perked up, where the characters do absolutely nothing but serve as obligatory boss-fights and their cookie-cutter tragic backstories are all delivered by a smooth-talkin' black man to hide their shallowness. Or Quiet, whose whole character arc is "I must kill Big Boss... but now I want to fuck Big Boss????"

 

[Palculator]

While the bait and switch of Raiden and Venom are obviously very similar in nature, I don't think the OP is right in saying the idea behind Venom's "didn't work anymore." Most of what we know about Raiden seems to have been both about making Solid Snake look like a bigger hero by shifting the perspective to Raiden seeing him be a sick badass and condemning the player for identifying with Solid Snake too much in the previous game(s.) From our current knowledge, it doesn't really look like that was the purpose behind the Venom and Big Boss "twist." What we have is the relatively loose concept of phantom pain and Kojima's foreword to the novelisation saying this being the last Metal Gear makes it about the fans dealing with the loss of their heroes and legends. Going by that, it makes more sense that Venom is such a blank slate and Big Boss almost entirely absent past the prologue.

Of couse, it's perfectly fine to still dislike the Venom and Big Boss switch since intent doesn't imply quality. It's more about the OP saying the idea behind the Raiden and Solid Snake switch not working here, since it doesn't seem like that has been the actual idea behind it. They use the same elements -- recreation of a person through ideas and deceiving the player -- but for seemingly different purposes.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I think you, and others (since i've seen the Fukushima-theory thrown around before), have come to a conclusion just tried to fit things together to prove your point. Your take on female characters is a good example. When you first meet Meryl she's wearing panties. Sniper Wolf has her cleavage showing even more than Naomi does, who you criticize in MGS4. In MGS2 you Fortune, who wears a leotard. Let's not forget that gravure posters and how you could get Snake to jerkoff. Or how you could see the female hostages panties. I'll even throw in Eva, because while I think her design makes sense, others throw it up as being needlessly sexualized. The list goes on.

But you've convinced yourself that Kojima just went off the rails/Fukushima had more control than some realize, so it seems like all that stuff is ignored so that your theory can work.

 

[BocoDragon]

The way I see it, MGS4 was just taking the MGS1-3 formula and not sticking the landing.... while Portable Ops, Peace Walker and MGSV were doing their own thing and not trying to do the MGS1-3 formula at all.

 

[Dmax3901]

Really good write-up, I agree with a lot of what you said.

ok let's do this again

after "what happen after FF7?"
"what happen after Zelda OOT?"
"what happen after Assassin's Creed 2"
"what happen after super mario bros 3?"

here it is, the new "nostalgia" topic that will ruin the future of the saga of metal gear games.

This is not at all fair given the amount of effort put into the OP. If it was a short thing saying "Every MGS game after 3 is shit" or whatever then your post would be fair.

 

[Alienous]

Honest question: would the information you found out in those important tapes been any more effective in the traditional MGS cutscene formula for info dumps, which involved two parties talking with each other while slideshows cut in every so often? With the way people go on about the tapes, you would think that every cutscene in the series prior was on the same level as Snake chasing after RAY at the end of MGS2.

I think it would have been more effective with the Codec System, which it substitutes.

I think information driven by context is better than audio dumps. That's just lazy. I'd much prefer calling Ocelot for a conversation that's somewhat pertinent to the current events in the game, instead of piling up hours of audio I'll just listen to in large chunks.

 

[Haganeren]

Woman were great in MGS 1 ? With Meryl which was trained to "despite men" and have been controled so easily by Psycho Mantis ? Or in MGS 3 and EVA with her embarassing "femme fatale" cliché which fall in love without any logic with Naked Snake ?

Yeah, it may have gone worst with time but seriously, it wasn't that great back then either. I like a lot of bullshit from MGS but that one always unsettle me.

 

[BocoDragon]

I think it would have been more effective with the Codec System, which it substitutes.

I think information driven by context is better than audio dumps. That's just lazy. I'd much prefer calling Ocelot for a conversation that's somewhat pertinent to the current events in the game, instead of piling up hours of audio I'll just listen to in large chunks.

I totally see your point. I certainly did listen to a lot of the tapes long after they were relevant to my actions.

But having to sit and listen to a codec has its obvious downsides too.... and having the codec talk to you over gameplay at mandatory times would be too distracting to play. Better to let the player choose when to listen to a recording during a non-critical moment of action.

I can see how they arrived at their decision to use tapes....

 

[JayEH]

The tapes did get ridiculous at times with the way they were positioned in game.

Miller : Yo boss we just learned some really
Important information regarding Skullface, we literally just had a conversation about it. We didn't think to call you to come talk about it but well whatever. Here's a tape of the conversation maybe give it a listen, only if you want to. But it's really really important.

 

[Unknown One]

Tapes were a complete downgrade from Codec calls. You don't see the interaction between the characters. You don't see their reactions, facial expressions, and a lot of the tapes lack emotion. Not only that, you can't press a button to read what the characters are actually thinking. Lastly, you can't play with Rose's boobs.

 

[Alienous]

ok let's do this again

after "what happen after FF7?"
"what happen after Zelda OOT?"
"what happen after Assassin's Creed 2"
"what happen after super mario bros 3?"

here it is, the new "nostalgia" topic that will ruin the future of the saga of metal gear games.

What is this? I don't understand.

The Director of mainline Final Fantasy games isn't consistent. FF8 isn't hated.
Shigeru Miyamoto -> Eiji Aonuma
Brotherhood was good too, after which Patrice Desilets was separated from the series, thus began the downfall.
Super Mario World?

I think you, and others (since i've seen the Fukushima-theory thrown around before), have come to a conclusion just tried to fit things together to prove your point. Your take on female characters is a good example. When you first meet Meryl she's wearing panties. Sniper Wolf has her cleavage showing even more than Naomi does, who you criticize in MGS4. In MGS2 you Fortune, who wears a leotard. Let's not forget that gravure posters and how you could get Snake to jerkoff. Or how you could see the female hostages panties. I'll even throw in Eva, because while I think her design makes sense, others throw it up as being needlessly sexualized. The list goes on.

But you've convinced yourself that Kojima just went off the rails/Fukushima had more control than some realize, so it seems like all that stuff is ignored so that your theory can work.

That's a fair point. I think it could be argued that the technology had more to do with the increased perverseness than the lack of Fukushima did.

Otherwise I think the horribly written female characters post-3 probably compound the impact of the treatment of women in those games; they went from being interesting characters with a sexual element to uninteresting characters who show skin, and that could coincide with the lack of Fukushima's writing influence.

 

[Vamphuntr]

ok let's do this again

after "what happen after FF7?"
"what happen after Zelda OOT?"
"what happen after Assassin's Creed 2"
"what happen after super mario bros 3?"

here it is, the new "nostalgia" topic that will ruin the future of the saga of metal gear games.

Kojima didn't need a topic on a forum to ruin his saga he pretty much did it all by himself at least for me. I doubt nostalgia is the only factor explaining why people hated some games that came after in some series. Posting edgy remark and being outraged is increasingly popular here but it's easy to come up with reasonable explanations.

The series went on for too long and just like a tv series that goes on for way too much time you try to shake thing up to stay relevant. Just like Resident Evil where the plot no longer makes any sense and is out of control, the same in happening to Metal Gear.

The pervert content increased just like it increased in most Japanese titles. PW was trying to cash on on MH but was afflicted with PSP limitations. For V he was trying to do like all the big open world games he was impressed with but was faced with Konami's new stance on game development.

Plotwise he was never a really great writer, he's just amazingly talented at creating awesome moment in games. You can go back and play something like Policenauts and the writing is still awful. It's just that the way the revelations and the scenes play out make it great.

 

[speedpop]

This is purely anecdotal but the Kojima vs Fukushima debate is a contribution to the reason why I never finished MGS4 and have zero interest in playing MGS5 outside of adding it to my wishlist on Steam. Just so, you know, I never forget that it's on there.

The saddest thing about it in my eyes was that the series progressed from strength to strength until it hit MGS4. MGS is to this day still the only game I've completed multiple times. I was one of the rare few who loved the shit out of MGS2 on its release "I NEED SCISSORS! 61!" And MGS3 is up there in my personal top 10 so far without question.

 

[BocoDragon]

This is purely anecdotal but the Kojima vs Fukushima debate is a contribution to the reason why I never finished MGS4 and have zero interest in playing MGS5 outside of adding it to my wishlist on Steam. Just so, you know, I never forget that it's on there.

The saddest thing about it in my eyes was that the series progressed from strength to strength until it hit MGS4. MGS is to this day still the only game I've completed multiple times. I was one of the rare few who loved the shit out of MGS2 on its release "I NEED SCISSORS! 61!" And MGS3 is up there in my personal top 10 so far without question.

The trajectory of MGS4 really explains nothing about the game that is MGSV. V is a complete departure from almost anything in 4. It's story-lite and gameplay focused, and the gameplay is fantastic.

That said, it is also flawed, and probably wouldn't be considered another perfect "strength", as you put it.

 

[GunBR]

I don't see this changes that the OP saw

The story is crazy in 4? Yeah, it was crazy at 1 and 2 too.
The depiction of women? Just look at Sniper Wolf cleavage:

And you could saw Meryl in her underwear:
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-FTwV5fR8wU/maxresdefault.jpg
The cgs? I really think that the ones in MGS 2 and the ones in the other games are almost the same.
And I found the "Shining Lights, Even in Death" mission really incredible. But thats a matter of opinion

You have a good point in your critics, but the things that are you complaining are in the franchise since MGS 1

 

[Moon_frogger]

The best parts of MGSVs story are in audio tapes...

What the fuck were they thinking?

that all the complaining about long cut scenes ruining the pace was maybe something they wanted to avoid this time around. it worked brilliantly. actually, it was more of a stand in for codec talk than anything else. I'd argue that the best parts of the story are still in the cut scenes but I'm not getting on that wonderful rollercoaster of stupidity again because I had enough of it when the game launched.

 

[Dmax3901]

I just realised the amount of tapes in MGS V is probably due to running out of time/money. They could easily have been recorded dialogue for cutscenes that they realised they wouldn't be able to use. The answer? Chuck em in the game as tapes.

 

[Strangelove77]

I dont agree with most of what youve said, but I see your point.
I personally dont think he was being reined in or that he was somehow "better" or more aware of "societal issues" than before. The Metal Gear series is is a strange series that has drastically changed but also stayed mostly the same. Every game tries to be different, but always follows the same motifs.
I personally dont see the disconnect between MGS3 and everything after, mostly because I dont think MGS3 is the best one like everyone else seems to. At this point, it's a poor man's MGS5 with a good story to me.

For better or for worse, Kojima has always wanted to do more than the technology and budget he was using at the time allowed him. There's no doubt in my mind that if dreams came true his first Metal Gear game would have played like MGS5, starred Kurt Russell in his late 20s/early 30s, and would have had MGS4's cutscenes and neutered warring faction system. Sadly, that was not possible during the 8 bit days and their technological restrictions. Funnily enough, its STILL not possible because of budget restrictions. Making a game like that with the quality that he wants it would be ridiculously expensive.
Off the top of my head, MGS5 needed another big area, cutscenes rivaling those of MGS3/4 in quality and longevity, and good MGS bosses. So new character models, textures, animations, voice acting, gameplay mechanics, music composing and orchestration, and a shit ton of writers to write something decent. I dont think even another year in development would have covered half of that.
And im not a game creator, so maybe Im blowing things a bit out or proportion. I just assume its a shit ton of work.

To this day I dont think he's made the game he really wants to make. I have a feeling that every time he gets close he thinks of something better/different, and so he's constantly pursuing. It's why he keeps making these games. Thankfully, the foundation was solid as fuck, so what he builds on is always good.

 

[normanski]

Imo Venom is more than a blank state and he changes things quite considerably. he is as much Big Boss as the original one was, which philosophically ties back to MGS1 and 2;

1 was about trying to replicate him by cloning.

2 was trying to make Raiden into Snake by simulation of the events of shadow Moses (there's a technical term for this that someone smarter than me will know I'm sure).

5 is the third method, which is the ship of Theseus, in which all aspects of what was originally there has been changed in both body and mind to replicate Boss. He is essentially a copy.

On a side note, V also fills in how Boss survived been seemingly killed twice and yet live; Venom died in Outer Heaven and Boss must have survived been burnt alive in Metal Gear: Solid Snake with the use of parasites (much like Quiet did).

 

[EmCeeGramr]

You saw women in revealing clothing or making flirtatious comments in MGS1-3.

In 4-PW-V, it was supermodels with emotional trauma rolling around on the ground laughing while even the previously non sexualized ones suddenly had cleavage and ass in the camera, a fake 16 year old girl that suddenly has to be in underwear to pilot a Metal Gear and cutscenes giving you X-ray vision, and a woman whose powers are tied to her lack of clothes and inability to speak and needs to dance in the rain and rub herself while showering because of a physiological need to.


Sexualization existed in the first three and in the case of EVA, tied into their character arcs and motivations. In the latter three, the women were bizarre fetish bait of traumatized real world models that had some arbitrary lore reasons for acting in immature ways while simultaneously acting erotic, which is a pretty weird ass thing. It's almost as bad as the stuff in Snatcher and Policenauts where Gillian or Jonathan can walk in on teenagers in the shower or examine breasts with a jiggle animation.

 

[Ryouji Gunblade]

You could write the decline of anti-Americanism off as the rise of the Patriots.

 

[Reebot]

I just realised the amount of tapes in MGS V is probably due to running out of time/money. They could easily have been recorded dialogue for cutscenes that they realised they wouldn't be able to use. The answer? Chuck em in the game as tapes.

That can't be the case; 90% of the tapes are characters monologging exposition to the player. There's little dialogue in the game.

This is also why the "tapes are just codecs" thing is completely false.

 

[Dmax3901]

That can't be the case; 90% of the tapes are characters monologging exposition to the player. There's little dialogue in the game.

This is also why the "tapes are just codecs" thing is completely false.

Yeah you're probably right. But there's just. So. Many!

 

[normanski]

Yeah you're probably right. But there's just. So. Many!

If it helps the ones in yellow are all the crucial story information :0)

 

[foxtrot3d]

Great write up.

Kojima is the video game George Lucas. With good collaborates, he makes great products. But when he gets total control, when technology allows him to really unleash all his bizarre and terrible ideas, then we get weird crap.

Spoiler

Its like poetry.

Except none of that is true since Kojima made MGS: Peace Walker, one of the best MGS games.

 

[Palculator]

Yeah you're probably right. But there's just. So. Many!

But that has been the case in Ground Zeroes too. It was obviously, for better or worse, the intended way, not just them not having enough time to make them into cutscenes.

 

[Alienous]

That can't be the case; 90% of the tapes are characters monologging exposition to the player. There's little dialogue in the game.

This is also why the "tapes are just codecs" thing is completely false.

Right.

Unlike the codecs they aren't character focused.

They're exposition dumps. Ways of keeping in the game narrative concepts that were too unwieldy to work into the story.

 

[PensOwl]

Imo Venom is more than a blank state and he changes things quite considerably. he is as much Big Boss as the original one was, which philosophically ties back to MGS1 and 2;

1 was about trying to replicate him by cloning.

2 was trying to make Raiden into Snake by simulation of the events of shadow Moses (there's a technical term for this that someone smarter than me will know I'm sure).

5 is the third method, which is the ship of Theseus, in which all aspects of what was originally there has been changed in both body and mind to replicate Boss. He is essentially a copy.

On a side note, V also fills in how Boss survived been seemingly killed twice and yet live; Venom died in Outer Heaven and Boss must have survived been burnt alive in Metal Gear: Solid Snake with the use of parasites (much like Quiet did).

I'm not sure you actually played mgs2...

 

[Reebot]

Yeah you're probably right. But there's just. So. Many!

I think your instincts are right in that the tapes are a cost saving measure. If you notice, almost every line Venom says is off camera, and his face barely moves. He can't even muster an "I'm scared" or "I'm worried" expression under threat of imminent death. Seems likely that Kiefer was actually pretty costly to haul into the studio, and this is the result.

 

[SolidSnakex]

People have been comparing Kojima to Lucas ever since MGS2, which had a tremendous amount of backlash against it for a variety of reasons. So that tells you a lot about that comparison.

 

[PLASTICA-MAN]

Now that everyone is gone I wonder what route the series will go.

Spoiler

I hope nothing like the calamity Metal Gear 2: Snake's Revenge where Solid Snake is a "karateka"

...

 

[NinjamicWZ]

Disney should buy it.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Using the Star Wars comparison, imagine if TFA revealed that Luke and Han's legendary status wasn't just normal exaggeration of flawed, imperfect, and regular people (like Snake and Big Boss's whole legend thing), but because they literally had doppelgangers cloned by the Rebels or whatever who did a bunch of other stuff. "Ah, but legends are always exaggerated!" Sure, but we saw Big Boss do incredible things in MGS3 and PW. Suddenly downplaying those achievements by creating oddly perfect body doubles or retconning helpers (fucking Skull Face) feels cheap and overly literal about the whole "legends aren't real" thing.

(similarly, imagine if they revealed that the darth vader that struck down obi wan and chased luke in the trench was a clone or double, and said "ah, but that's how vader managed to survive the death star... true, there was an explanation in the form of his tie flying away, but he'd run out of oxygen and his ship was damaged! this plugs a plot hole!")

 

[Palculator]

Using the Star Wars comparison, imagine if TFA revealed that Luke and Han's legendary status wasn't just normal exaggeration of flawed, imperfect, and regular people (like Snake and Big Boss's whole legend thing), but because they literally had doppelgangers cloned by the Rebels or whatever who did a bunch of other stuff. "Ah, but legends are always exaggerated!" Sure, but we saw Big Boss do incredible things in MGS3 and PW. Suddenly downplaying those achievements by creating oddly perfect body doubles or retconning helpers (fucking Skull Face) feels cheap and overly literal about the whole "legends aren't real" thing.

You could almost say Star Wars isn't a franchise that has had identity, the replication thereof through various means and hero worship as one of its major themes for almost two decades.

 

[normanski]

I'm not sure you actually played mgs2...

Yep I beat it, albeit a very long time ago on PS2. I know it wasn't exactly the same events but that's what the theory behind that game is (I was about 15 at the time so it went over my head).

 

[JerkShep]

I agree wholeheartedly with OP, great read.

I especially find baffling the regression of the message from MGS2 to MGSV. With Raiden the game was basically saying: beware of blind idolization, you shouldn't strive to be someone else (or better yet the image you have in your head of someone else), find your own path and become your own person with your own values to pass on.
In MGSV, with Venom and the ending, Kojma is going against the powerful message of Sons of Liberty: "You are Big Boss too!". Which is even more ridiculous if you think you are fundamentally inconsequential in the MGS universe. But you are Big Boss too, beLIEve, aren't you excited?