Support NeoGAF

[KyanMehwulfe]

not to discredit the broader point (especially in regard to IV or the final boss fight 'chase' scenes in V), but I genuinely liked a few of the slow motion segments in MGS V for the drama they added. in particular, the end of Mission 31 as they come off the helicopter.

even the 'chase' slow motion scenes in V though, I didn't mind too much because the cutscenes thus far had been so devoid of action. I loved some of the camera work with Sahelanthropus chasing Snake as he was running. Jeep scene? Not so much. Skull scenes? Also not so much. But found Sahelanthropus leaping or wielding the sword sort of climactic and satisfying.

 

[CenturionKei]

Pretty sure my opinion is more common then you think.

Imagine if you acquire some missions or find out some lore from a couple NPC's on mother base, Hound Dog (random name). You chat with him every other mission, you learn Hound Dog has a sick daughter that he takes care of by working for diamond dogs and using an experimental drug they developed at MB. Some of the missions include finding the herbs and resources to develop that drug, and when it's developed he thanks you for it and says he can't wait to see his daughter during his vacation time. Then right before he's supposed to be on vacation he ends up being that last NPC you need to kill in that quarantine bay. He says his "only regret is not seeing my daughter smile one last time" and then says "it has to be done boss" and salutes you and then, the controls return to you and you have to pull the trigger.

Tell me that wouldn't have a larger impact on you and be more memorable and less forced?

And that's just one example, there could be a dozen or so NPC's with similar back stories and interactions you had with, and you'd end up having to kill them.

Yup. Thanks for the backup.

No it wouldn't.

Watching my troops struggle on the ground, wracked and consumed by the vocal cord parasite, barely stuttering out "Boss...you came...I knew you would..." or "End me Boss...do it..." or that random soldier drawing his firearm, and screaming, "YOU ARE HERE TO KILL US" was far more emotional then some cheesy thing with the soldiers mentioning there daughter.

That wasn't the point. It was to show how highly regarded the D.D soldiers think of there boss. (Just like in the post ending, were there shown saying stuff like, "I dont care who you are. Your always our boss.) The Portable Ops ending illustrated this well too.

The novelization had something similar, were Venom mercy kills one of his best friends (a member of the intel team, whose is a side character throughout the novel. ) The only improvement is Venom is sobbing uncontrollably, and the Intel member thinks he's hallucinating, "because his boss would never cry"

And above. I utterly disagree. I thought the Paz subplot was the best written, directed, and shown part of the game. The buttfly scene blew my mind, along with the Silent Hill-esque music in the background.

 

[News Bot]

No it wouldn't.

Watching my troops struggle on the ground, wracked and consumed by the vocal cord parasite, barely stuttering out "Boss...you came...I knew you would..." or "End me Boss...do it..." or that random soldier drawing his firearm, and screaming, "YOU ARE HERE TO KILL US" was far more emotional then some cheesy thing with the soldiers mentioning there daughter.

That wasn't the point. It was to show how highly regarded the D.D soldiers think of there boss. (Just like in the post ending, were there shown saying stuff like, "I dont care who you are. Your always our boss.) The Portable Ops ending illustrated this well too.

The novelization had something similar, were Venom mercy kills one of his best friends (a member of the intel team, whose is a side character throughout the novel. ) The only improvement is Venom is sobbing uncontrollably, and the Intel member thinks he's hallucinating, "because his boss would never cry"

And above. I utterly disagree. I thought the Paz subplot was the best written, directed, and shown part of the game. The buttfly scene blew my mind, along with the Silent Hill-esque music in the background.

Not interacting with any of these troops makes it impossible for me to really feel a connection to them, even less so when Venom shows absolutely no reaction to them beyond that one moment of brief hesitation. After which he just becomes totally autonomous about it. It's all fancy dressing rather than substantial writing. Spectacle over substance. Kojima focused the story's attention on drivel instead of building a world with meaning and actual things to do.

 

[CenturionKei]

Not interacting with any of these troops makes it impossible for me to really feel a connection to them. It's all fancy dressing rather than substantial writing. Spectacle over substance.

That's your opinion not a fact.

The fact, that I had to pull the trigger, on people just happy to see me one last tine, and not some over the top, dramatic cutscene, and watch them slowly bleed out in the bloodsoaked metal floor of some random deck in the middle of Seychelles was more substance then I see in usual video game death scenes.

"Staff member has died*

*Heroism lowers* over and over was a nice touch too.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

Likely depends a lot on how attached the player was in general to the Mother Base management element of the game.

I suspect the tedium and often pointlessness of it means that most people never felt particularly attached, but I do know that I rather was.

But I think I was also over 150 hours into the game at that point (which is almost 300 hours now), which is certainly not the norm -- nor would be the added effort I put into sorting and assigning all my Diamond Dogs by manually rather than automatically. Again, that sort of almost XCOM-fueled interest and headcanon wouldn't be the norm though, and I do wish the game had done even more to create more natural attachment (a la XCOM).

 

[News Bot]

That's your opinion not a fact.

The fact, that I had to pull the trigger, on people just happy to see me one last tine, and not some over the top, dramatic cutscene, and watch them slowly bleed out in the bloodsoaked metal floor of some random deck in the middle of Seychelles was more substance then I see in usual video game death scenes.

"Staff member has died*

*Heroism lowers* over and over was a nice touch too.

Pulling the trigger on pretty much faceless entities with no meaningful prior relationship to me as the player or Venom as a character is not emotionally affecting, at least to me. Some of them I just spared because of their high stats while I slaughtered the rest of their worthless comrades. They're barely people in this game, and nothing was done to change that at any point in the game. The majority of the time, they just stand around in cutscenes and do nothing. They're window dressing.

 

[Roni]

Not interacting with any of these troops makes it impossible for me to really feel a connection to them, even less so when Venom shows absolutely no reaction to them beyond that one moment of brief hesitation. After which he just becomes totally autonomous about it. It's all fancy dressing rather than substantial writing. Spectacle over substance. Kojima focused the story's attention on drivel instead of building a world with meaning and actual things to do.

It's possible for those that have the habit of deploying with some of those soldiers and they suddenly fall ill and you have no way of keeping them.

 

[News Bot]

It's possible for those that have the habit of deploying with some of those soldiers and they suddenly fall ill and you have no way of keeping them.

Yeah but do you feel a connection to them just because you're controlling them while they're constantly referred to as Big Boss? They're just skin changes.

 

[CenturionKei]

Pulling the trigger on pretty much faceless entities with no meaningful prior relationship to me as the player or Venom as a character is not emotionally affecting, at least to me. Some of them I just spared because of their high stats while I slaughtered the rest of their worthless comrades. They're barely people in this game, and nothing was done to change that at any point in the game.

Again your opinion.

Bumbling into them, playfully wrestling with them, them thanking me for beating them. Watching them gush over D.D petting him, some of them talking about being team Ocelot, or Team Miller, made me feel a connection to them. Especially some of my combat members, who I personally deployed on mission after mission.

It might because I was really into the base building, but I felt a connection to the people I shot.

 

[Palculator]

We don't see Venom interact with any of the Diamond Dogs in any meaningful way. That alone undermines the whole thing. They're never portrayed as being close. Venom never spends time with any of them, except that one cutscene you can only get if morale is low. Sure, there's the laughable "beat me up plz" when running around Mother Base, but that's hardly bonding. Not to mention utterly boring after the first time. Mother Base being huge but completely derelict doesn't help the game at all either.

He's a medic at heart forced to murder those he's supposed to protect, he cares about his staff if you look around the ACC, the scene you're referencing literally has him say "We don't draw weapons on comrades. Look around you... this is your family" and considering how he treats Huey during his "trial" he clearly prefers not to kill. And you seem to ignore the possibility of Mission 43 actually adding to Venom's sparse characterisation and just focus on the very little characterisation prior.

Just sounds like whenever something is pointed out to you, you rush to another thing to call the game shit. Not really a fruitful way to discuss the story. Peace.

 

[News Bot]

Again your opinion.

Bumbling into them, playfully wrestling with them, them thanking me for beating them. Watching them gush over D.D petting him, some of them talking about being team Ocelot, or Team Miller, made me feel a connection to them. Especially some of my combat members, who I personally deployed on mission after mission.

It might because I was really into the base building, but I felt a connection to the people I shot.

Base building being handled entirely in a menu didn't help any of this, and wandering around Mother Base is one of the most boring video game experiences imaginable so it's very easy to miss those conversations. That's a poor way to handle a story, especially one that's meant to be interactive. The player needs actual incentive to interact with the world to begin with. Mother Base has nothing going for it in that respect.

He's a medic at heart forced to murder those he's supposed to protect, he cares about his staff if you look around the ACC, the scene you're referencing literally has him say "We don't draw weapons on comrades. Look around you... this is your family" and considering how he treats Huey during his "trial" he clearly prefers not to kill. And you seem to ignore the possibility of Mission 43 actually adding to Venom's sparse characterisation and just focus on the very little characterisation prior.

Just sounds like whenever something is pointed out to you, you rush to another thing to call the game shit. Not really a fruitful way to discuss the story. Peace.

A scene that's only obtainable if you're bad at the game is not a good way of character building. Many people completely missed that scene.

The game isn't shit. The story is shit.

 

[Roni]

Yeah but do you feel a connection to them just because you're controlling them while they're constantly referred to as Big Boss? They're just skin changes.

I've felt pretty enraged when a soldier that looked just right and had just the right stats dies because I fucked up in FOB or because some outrageous situation brought me to lose and let them die.

They are re-skins, yeah, I wager because there was no time to cut the audio and reintroduce it correctly, but one can definitely feel attached to them. Just because it's difficult for you doesn't mean it's difficult for everyone.

 

[Unknown One]

Pulling the trigger on pretty much faceless entities with no meaningful prior relationship to me as the player or Venom as a character is not emotionally affecting, at least to me. Some of them I just spared because of their high stats while I slaughtered the rest of their worthless comrades. They're barely people in this game, and nothing was done to change that at any point in the game. The majority of the time, they just stand around in cutscenes and do nothing. They're window dressing.

I too seen them as nothing but stats. The whole time I was thinking: Ahh shit I'm going to level down.

The game failed to convince me to think otherwise. Venom barely being a character and he hardly has any interactions with his soldiers. Why should I care?

 

[News Bot]

I've felt pretty enraged when a soldier that looked just right and had just the right stats dies because I fucked up in FOB or because some outrageous situation brought me to lose and let them die.

They are re-skins, yeah, I wager because there was no time to cut the audio and reintroduce it correctly, but one can definitely feel attached to them. Just because it's difficult for you doesn't mean it's difficult for everyone.

They're not characters through this method though. There's nothing that really sets them apart from Venom when they're just re-skins. And Venom himself is pretty much a blank slate during gameplay already.

 

[Opto]

Shining Lights was a highpoint, and I felt emotionally affected. Then it just lead to nothing.

 

[News Bot]

I too seen them as nothing but stats. The whole time I was thinking: Ahh shit I'm going to level down.

The game failed to convince me to think otherwise. Venom barely being a character and he hardly has any interactions with his soldiers. Why should I care?

That scene where Quiet is brought to Mother Base is one of the most awkward things I've ever seen. Nobody reacts as they should in that scene. Especially the DD soldiers, who just stare aimlessly and wave around a little. Real character building! There was a chance to show that some were loyal to Ocelot and Miller than Venom that could've created some tension, but nothing came of it even when one aims directly at Venom Snake. Nobody seems to care about that during the game.

 

[Roni]

They're not characters through this method though. There's nothing that really sets them apart from Venom when they're just re-skins. And Venom himself is pretty much a blank slate during gameplay already.

They're not characters the game fleshes out, but they're still characters.

 

[News Bot]

They're not characters the game fleshes out, but they're still characters.

Characters have personality. Or are meant to, at least. If I like a "character" just because of how they look, how exactly am I meant to feel sad about them dying as people, when I'm just annoyed that my cool skin is gone? It's incredibly hard to think of them as people.

 

[CenturionKei]

They're not characters through this method though. There's nothing that really sets them apart from Venom when they're just re-skins. And Venom himself is pretty much a blank slate during gameplay already.

There literally PLAYER MOOKS!!! There Big Boss's army. What, you want them all to have a thousand different backstories?

They have conversations. Have some personality. Some are unique (the named ones you rescue from missions).

Being forced to put down your own soldiers, especially to a person like BB, is heartbreaking in itself.

 

[News Bot]

There literally PLAYER MOOKS!!! There Big Boss's army. What, you want them all to have a thousand different backstories?

They have conversations. Have some personality. Some are unique (the named ones you rescue from missions).

Being forced to put down your own soldiers, especially to a person like BB, is heartbreaking in itself.

Why should I feel sad about what you admit are basically just cliché henchmen? Empty husks.

Those conversations are all very easily missed and the player is not given any incentive to pursue them. Mother Base is derelict and boring. There's never any reason to go there unless the game drags you. The only exception is Paz.

What do you mean "to a person like Big Boss"? Portable Ops is the only game that shows him having a connection with the people he fights with. In Peace Walker he says a handful of words one time and that's it. In Portable Ops he actually interacts with his subordinates regularly and we see why people follow him at all. In PW and V, we don't know why people follow him. They just do, at the drop of a hat (the only exception being the Sandinistas, out of desperation and "lol looks like El Ché"). Considering PO's poor treatment by Kojima and the fact that most of the fanbase thinks it non-canon, this does a disservice to Big Boss' character too.

 

[Roni]

Characters have personality. Or are meant to, at least. If I like a "character" just because of how they look, how exactly am I meant to feel sad about them dying as people, when I'm just annoyed that my cool skin is gone? It's incredibly hard to think of them as people.

The notion of you imbuing those "skins" with history and personality shouldn't be ignored. As you're doing it.

 

[CenturionKei]

Why should I feel sad about what you admit are basically just cliché henchmen? Empty husks.

Those conversations are all very easily missed and the player is not given any incentive to pursue them. Mother Base is derelict and boring. There's never any reason to go there unless the game drags you. The only exception is Paz.

What do you mean "to a person like Big Boss"? Portable Ops is the only game that shows him having a connection with the people he fights with. In Peace Walker he says a handful of words one time and that's it. In Portable Ops he actually interacts with his subordinates regularly and we see why people follow him at all.

...
Are you serious?
Big Boss ENTIRE character throughout the Metal Gear games is his love for soldiers serving under him. In Ground Zeroes and Portable Ops, he screams in agony after watching them get gunned down (In ground zeroes, he's so affected, he's starring into space watching Motherbase burn, and Kaz going insane.) There's all of his men hailing him as Vic Boss in PW. In Metal Gear 1, he saved the Outer Heaven reistance from dying from there own allies, despite being his enemies, because there fellow soldiers.

In Ground Zeroes, after seeing one of his soldiers die in his arms, he goes back, screaming in rage, to gun down a few XOF mooks.

 

[News Bot]

The notion of you imbuing those "skins" with history and personality shouldn't be ignored. As you're doing it.

That makes no sense.

...
Are you serious?
Big Boss ENTIRE character throughout the Metal Gear games is his love for soldiers serving under him. In Ground Zeroes and Portable Ops, he screams in agony after watching them get gunned down (In ground zeroes, he's so affected, he's starring into space watching Motherbase burn, and Kaz going insane.) There's all of his men hailing him as Vic Boss in PW. In Metal Gear 1, he saved the Outer Heaven reistance from dying from there own allies, despite being his enemies, because there fellow soldiers.

In Ground Zeroes, after seeing one of his soldiers die in his arms, he goes back, screaming in rage, to gun down a few XOF mooks.

In MG2, Big Boss shows not one ounce of "love" for anyone or anything but war. He saves the resistance members and they feel indebted to him for it, that's about it. Incidentally this is still more than The Phantom Pain attempts at showing why people follow him, especially considering Venom is much less talkative than Big Boss in general. They appear to follow him more for the legend than his persona, but this is just the perception given due a lack of character or relationship building.

In Ground Zeroes, yes I'll give you that. That was a fantastic moment reminiscent of Portable Ops. However, TPP failed to create any other moments similar to this... and that's setting aside the fact that we don't play as Big Boss anyway so it wouldn't matter in relation to his character.

The Sandinistas are the ones who hailed him as Vic Boss. Not his own men, though apparently the Sandinistas joined MSF... but nothing comes of this.

 

[rrs]

More of a note to the OP, MGS did mention nanomachines in the 20 minute optional debriefing as to how

Spoiler

Snake doesn't need to wear arctic clothing, and could perform at his peak the whole mission.

The elements were there, but it served more as background details than some internet meme

 

[Roni]

That makes no sense.

It should if you've ever read a book, played a game, watched a movie or even been a child playing with toy soldiers.

 

[CenturionKei]

That makes no sense.



In MG2, Big Boss shows not one ounce of "love" for anyone or anything but war. He saves the resistance members and they feel indebted to him for it, that's about it. Incidentally this is still more than The Phantom Pain attempts at showing why people follow him, especially considering Venom is much less talkative than Big Boss in general. They appear to follow him more for the legend than his persona, but this is just the perception given due a lack of character or relationship building.

In Ground Zeroes, yes I'll give you that. That was a fantastic moment reminiscent of Portable Ops. However, TPP failed to create any other moments similar to this... and that's setting aside the fact that we don't play as Big Boss anyway so it wouldn't matter in relation to his character.

The Sandinistas are the ones who hailed him as Vic Boss. Not his own men, though apparently the Sandinistas joined MSF... but nothing comes of this.

Again the point. The entire message given in the ending is that anyone can be Big Boss. He is more of a legend, then an actual person. Ocelot himself says the reason why he's so loyal to BB, is because, he like Quiet, is "In love with the Legend"

And how is that any different, then Venom be devastated, and emotionally attached to the soldiers he killed, hmmmm? There just faceless goons that your recruited in Peace Walker.

 

[News Bot]

It should if you've ever read a book, played a game, watched a movie or even been a child playing with toy soldiers.

All of those things, minus the toy soldiers, define their characters. TPP doesn't define the "mooks." Mosquito is the only one who has some sort of life of his own at all.

But on your original point, no, I didn't think of them as characters the few times I used them on missions. They were skins, nothing more. I didn't conjure a personality for them in my head.

Again the point. The entire message given in the ending is that anyone can be Big Boss. He is more of a legend, then an actual person. Ocelot himself says the reason why he's so loyal to BB, is because, he like Quiet, is "In love with the Legend"

And how is that any different, then Venom be devastated, and emotionally attached to the soldiers he killed, hmmmm? There just faceless goons that your recruited in Peace Walker.

That message is bullshit melodrama that makes no sense. It's not possible for "anyone" to be Big Boss. This is a laughable attempt at writing. It's something a freshman who thinks they've figured life out would write. Pure nonsense. Just like his "genes don't matter" spiel.

It's all in the direction. That scene is a testament to cutscene direction in general, and by then we'd already seen and heard about Big Boss interacting with MSF soldiers in tapes (the game itself does a poor job of showing any interaction). Paz's Diary for example does wonders for portraying them as people, and as a family. Meanwhile the pseudo-Zombie shit in TPP felt flat and out of place and there was nothing to fall back on for DD soldiers to be anything more than window dressing.

 

[Roni]

All of those things, minus the toy soldiers, define their characters. TPP doesn't define the "mooks." Mosquito is the only one who has some sort of life of his own at all.

They define key characters and other entities, but they never stop people from imagining things beyond those boundaries and building a version of that world in their heads.

But on your original point, no, I didn't think of them as characters the few times I used them on missions. They were skins, nothing more. I didn't conjure a personality for them in my head.

Fair enough, just don't forget there are those who did.

 

[News Bot]

More of a note to the OP, MGS did mention nanomachines in the 20 minute optional debriefing as to how

Spoiler

Snake doesn't need to wear arctic clothing, and could perform at his peak the whole mission.

The elements were there, but it served more as background details than some internet meme

Yeah but those were believable precisely because they were background details and three specific roles nanomachines could carry out in reality, and they were very minor in the grand scheme of things (GPS tracking beacon, keeping CODEC batteries charged and providing time-released nutrition). Snake didn't need to wear arctic clothing because he was injected with an anti-freezing peptide and his suit was polythermal technology. In MGS4 they do literally anything, including being a fucking cure for cancer and able to make someone fully immortal, though we never learn anything more about these or how it was even possible. They're just magic. A testament to lazy writing if ever there was one, just like the hilarious notion of Venom's "plastic surgery" in TPP and the hypnosis bollocks started in MGS4 and continued in TPP.

 

[GreyOcelot]

the feminism angle of this OP is so off-base. MGS has always been super over-sexualized and sexist. the implication that there's any sort of discernible difference in that regard between MGS1/2/3 and 4/PW/V is laughable

 

[News Bot]

the feminism angle of this OP is so off-base. MGS has always been super over-sexualized and sexist. the implication that there's any sort of discernible difference in that regard between MGS1/2/3 and 4/PW/V is laughable

Olga's hairy armpits sure were super over-sexualized and sexist.

You have no idea what you're talking about and should play the games again. Meryl isn't sexualized, there's that one scene in her underwear but that's actually a pretty smart quirk--- she didn't have time to put on pants depending on the player's speed. Sniper Wolf and EVA are sexualized, but for the latter it is narratively relevant. She's a spy and keeps trying to seduce Big Boss because that would make her mission easier, although I think Kojima was trying too hard to make that point because a lot of the time, it's weird. Sniper Wolf exposes her chest indoors (pretty sure there's a reason given somewhere), but puts on appropriate arctic clothing when outside like a normal human.

Meryl is a joke of a character in 4, like most of the others. The whole idea of smart, independent female characters went right out the window in that game.

 

[GreyOcelot]

Olga's hairy armpits sure were super over-sexualized and sexist.

You have no idea what you're talking about and should play the games again. Sniper Wolf and EVA are sexualized, but for the latter it is narratively relevant. She's a spy and keeps trying to seduce Big Boss because that would make her mission easier.

wow. such a strong argument.

let's just ignore meryl in her underwear. snake trying to fuck literally every female he interacts with in MGS1, and a gameplay mechanic that allows you to look at scantly clad woman and jerk off as solid snake in MGS2, a half a dozen scenes in MGS3 where you literally press R1 to look at eva's tits. please counter this.

MGS hasn't changed one single bit when it comes to woman and sexuality. you can critique MGS and kojiima and the portrayal of woman in MGS, but to say that there's some sort of discernible difference between MGS1-3 and beyond in terms of the portrayal of woman is absolutely silly

 

[RevolverRoden]

Pulling the trigger on pretty much faceless entities with no meaningful prior relationship to me as the player or Venom as a character is not emotionally affecting, at least to me. Some of them I just spared because of their high stats while I slaughtered the rest of their worthless comrades. They're barely people in this game, and nothing was done to change that at any point in the game. The majority of the time, they just stand around in cutscenes and do nothing. They're window dressing.

The point was that these were the men you went out and recruited and placed in units and saw in motherbase, etc. Not that they were important to the canon as individuals. These are the men you spent the whole game recruiting and now you kill them. It was a good way of integrating gameplay with story. "Staff member has died" "heroism -30" was a good way of adding to this. I feel like in MGSV Kojima cared less about the canon and lotr and more about themes and the gameplay (for better or worse).

 

[CenturionKei]

Olga's hairy armpits sure were super over-sexualized and sexist.


Meryl is a joke of a character in 4, like most of the others. The whole idea of smart, independent female characters went right out the window in that game.

Oh and she's any better in 1? A damsel in distress who shows off her bewbs and ass all day. Paz is a thousand times better female character,

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I absolutely think Fukushima was a lot of the series' heart and soul and much of its charm was lost without him.

Kojima can be a genius, but he's a genius that sometimes needed to be told no, or be told there's a better way. He thinks little details can fundamentally not become bloat, so the more there are, the better the game is. And he believed in titillation for its own sake, even when it no longer made sense (NAOMI HID THE CARD IN A BRA SHE DID NOT EVEN HAVE ON).

I agree with the OP's assertion that Kojima got bored of Metal Gear, honestly likely after MGS2, but incredibly bored after MGS3. After that, it was a series of small rebellions with no one to give him perspective, and I don't really think MGS has been the same since.

 

[News Bot]

wow. such a strong argument.

let's just ignore meryl in her underwear. snake trying to fuck literally every female he interacts with in MGS1, and a gameplay mechanic that allows you to look at scantly clad woman and jerk off as solid snake in MGS2, a half a dozen scenes in MGS3 where you literally press R1 to look at eva's tits. please counter this.

How is Snake over-sexualizing women? The guy's a dog musher who lives in the middle of the Alaskan wilderness. His reactions are totally appropriate. He's acting like a human, this is actually good writing.

The posters in MGS2 are there for shits and giggles. Yeah I'm sure the fact that you can signal an alert by tapping on their crotch is really meant to get people's dicks hard. They're light-hearted jokes, and there's even a poster with a dude's chest and an ensuing gay joke. Cursed sense of humor!

The R1 sequences are all Big Boss' actual perspective. In that case, EVA was getting dressed in front of him intentionally. Again, because she's a goddamn spy and making men fawn over her is one of the biggest assets she has in that role (she does fuck both Volgin and Sokolov as well you know). That's what spies do. Male spies too, even. Churchill's band in WWII fucked their way all over Europe and helped win the war as a result.

Oh and she's any better in 1? A damsel in distress who shows off her bewbs and ass all day. Paz is a thousand times better female character,

Meryl never shows off her boobs. Or her ass for that matter, that was a very smart gameplay trick to identifying her. Women's butts tend to move differently than men. Stop the presses! Meryl is a very well-handled female character with a very good story to her. A rookie soldier chasing the glory of her "father" so she can feel closer to him even in death. She's a tomboy raised around a military culture, and it's only when she's thrown into an actual war that she realizes there's nothing glamorous about it. The moment she's taken down is very emotionally affecting as a result of her excellent character building. This is fantastic writing but it's all thrown away in MGS4, where she suddenly went from "war is ugly" to "I'm such a fucking badass SOP omg marry me diarrhea man."

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I don't know if the series' portrayal of women was ever good, but it certainly got worse.

More importantly, Kojima stopped being able to tell the difference. Either he legitimately thought Quiet was a good character and people would feel ashamed of their criticism (and he's insane) or he's kind of a slimy person.

 

[JayEH]

I don't know if the series' portrayal of women was ever good, but it certainly got worse.

More importantly, Kojima stopped being able to tell the difference. Either he legitimately thought Quiet was a good character and people would feel ashamed of their criticism (and he's insane) or he's kind of a slimy person.

I've always wondered if this is just a Japanese thing because in anime/manga you have super fan service characters that are still meant to be taken seriously.

 

[RevolverRoden]

Shining Lights was better than killing the boss tbh

 

[Timeaisis]

First of all, fantastic thread. I've always wondered this myself.

Secondly, I don't discredit Kojima as an excellent developer, but I do truly believe he is someone who bests works with an editor and/or co-writer, which I assume Fukashima was. I love Kojima's ideas, but do think they need to be reeled in sometimes. MGS4 was full on Kojima madness, and it's quite apparent.

 

[Ishida]

How is Snake over-sexualizing women? The guy's a dog musher who lives in the middle of the Alaskan wilderness. His reactions are totally appropriate. He's acting like a human, this is actually good writing.

The posters in MGS2 are there for shits and giggles. Yeah I'm sure the fact that you can signal an alert by tapping on their crotch is really meant to get people's dicks hard. They're light-hearted jokes, and there's even a poster with a dude's chest and an ensuing gay joke. Cursed sense of humor!

The R1 sequences are all Big Boss' actual perspective. In that case, EVA was getting dressed in front of him intentionally. Again, because she's a goddamn spy and making men fawn over her is one of the biggest assets she has in that role (she does fuck both Volgin and Sokolov as well you know). That's what spies do. Male spies too, even. Churchill's band in WWII fucked their way all over Europe and helped win the war as a result.



Meryl never shows off her boobs. Or her ass for that matter, that was a very smart gameplay trick to identifying her. Women's butts tend to move differently than men. Stop the presses!

Are you really trying to defend the female depictions in MGS 1 and 2? I would PROBABLY give you 3. But 1 and 2? lol.

 

[GreyOcelot]

How is Snake over-sexualizing women? The guy's a dog musher who lives in the middle of the Alaskan wilderness. His reactions are totally appropriate. He's acting like a human, this is actually good writing.

The posters in MGS2 are there for shits and giggles. Yeah I'm sure the fact that you can signal an alert by tapping on their crotch is really meant to get people's dicks hard. They're light-hearted jokes, and there's even a poster with a dude's chest and an ensuing gay joke. Cursed sense of humor!

The R1 sequences are all Big Boss' actual perspective. In that case, EVA was getting dressed in front of him intentionally. Again, because she's a goddamn spy and making men fawn over her is one of the biggest assets she has in that role (she does fuck both Volgin and Sokolov as well you know). That's what spies do. Male spies too, even. Churchill's band in WWII fucked their way all over Europe and helped win the war as a result.



Meryl never shows off her boobs. Or her ass for that matter, that was a very smart gameplay trick to identifying her. Women's butts tend to move differently than men. Stop the presses!

wow. apologists bonanza. you're out of your mind if you think think this is somehow far removed from the sexualization of women in MGS4/pw/V. i honestly can't even take you seriously. solid snake hits on naomi, mei ling, and meryl the moment he talks to all 3 of them. he literally notices meryl because he recognizes how her ass shakes back and forth when she walks

fin

 

[JayEH]

Shining Lights was better than killing the boss tbh

I wish I didn't spoil myself on the ending before I reached that mission because I found out about the ending like an hour before I played Shining Lights and was really pissed so the mission lost all impact for me. I'm fine with the ending twist now but at the time I was livid since I just read basically a one sentence description of the ending.

 

[Palculator]

wow. apologists bonanza. you're out of your mind if you think think this is somehow far removed from the sexualization of women in MGS4/pw/V. i honestly can't even take you seriously. solid snake hits on naomi, mei ling, and meryl the moment he talks to all 3 of them. he literally notices meryl because he recognizes how her ass shakes back and forth when she walks

fin

Not to mention those women going all Splash Mountain when they talk to Snake, playing into the power fantasy aspect of it all. Something MGS2 deliciously flipped on its head.

 

[News Bot]

Are you really trying to defend the female depictions in MGS 1 and 2? I would PROBABLY give you 3. But 1 and 2? lol.

Okay, who was sexualized in those games exactly?

Meryl? The rookie soldier who's forced to realize her childhood fantasies are all bullshit?
Olga? The girl with the hairy armpits?
Emma? The girl who pisses herself and can't swim?
Rose? The girl who despite being incredibly attractive exudes not one hint of sexuality?

I'll give you Sniper Wolf, that's about it.

One thing though, in MGS1 Meryl says she received psychotherapy to remove her interest in men, but this is undone at some point. I think that might actually be due to Mantis fucking with her mind and removing it, initially I thought it was just "the power of the Solid dick."

wow. apologists bonanza. you're out of your mind if you think think this is somehow far removed from the sexualization of women in MGS4/pw/V. i honestly can't even take you seriously. solid snake hits on naomi, mei ling, and meryl the moment he talks to all 3 of them. he literally notices meryl because he recognizes how her ass shakes back and forth when she walks

fin

News flash: women's butts move when they walk. Can you believe it!? There's nothing inherently sexual about it. Sure, the butt needs to be plump and shapely, but considering Meryl is "built all right" and squats like a champ, obviously it'll apply to her. It'll apply to most fit female soldiers. The entire thing is a stroke of genius in game design, and amusing to boot. The only other thing that could set Meryl apart from other soldiers in the game is her eyes, something the player (hilariously) can't do anything with.

Not to mention those women going all Splash Mountain when they talk to Snake, playing into the power fantasy aspect of it all. Something MGS2 deliciously flipped on its head.

None of them go "splash mountain." Meryl and Naomi have some light flirting with Snake to relieve tension and immediately go back to the mission. Naomi knows she's signed Snake's death sentence when she does it! Then she spends the rest of the game antagonizing him. Mei Ling knows Snake for the legend he is, and even remarks that she's surprised by his obvious attempts at hitting on her, being the lonely musher he is. This is all good writing because it portrays them for what they are: people. People find each other attractive. Hard to believe, I know, but it's true!

 

[Exodust]

I don't know, DevilFox. Latching onto Fukushima as the guy behind what made the first three MGS games what they were feels a bit disingenuous to me. There's a lot more to it than pointing at a guy who happened to leave at the right time IMO.

Good post regardless.

 

[Hypron]

wow. apologists bonanza. you're out of your mind if you think think this is somehow far removed from the sexualization of women in MGS4/pw/V. i honestly can't even take you seriously. solid snake hits on naomi, mei ling, and meryl the moment he talks to all 3 of them. he literally notices meryl because he recognizes how her ass shakes back and forth when she walks

fin

I definitely agree that MGS1-3 were already bad about this but tbh they didn't have anything as bad as the treatment of the B&B corp and Quiet. It went from the type of stuff you see in your average anime to "what the actual fuck Kojima, seriously?"

 

[The Silver]

you gotta be pretty willfully ignorant to not understand the difference in portrayal between Eva, Wolf, Fortune and Meryl to shit like B&B unit. The former are actually fully realized characters, they are taken seriously and don't exist just to stand around and look hot.

B&B are literally just that, sexy models for you to do this to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB90RijHEiA

They aren't characters, not even an attempt at being characters, and then the game had the gall to have Drebin call you with some ultra grimdark backstory after that that no one gives a about shit.(I'll admit it was funny to me how Snake no sells it)

 

[GreyOcelot]

Okay, who was sexualized in those games exactly?

Meryl? The rookie soldier who's forced to realize her childhood fantasies are all bullshit?
Olga? The girl with the hairy armpits?
Emma? The girl who pisses herself and can't swim?
Rose? The girl who despite being incredibly attractive exudes not one hint of sexuality?

I'll give you Sniper Wolf, that's about it.

One thing though, in MGS1 Meryl says she received psychotherapy to remove her interest in men, but this is undone at some point. I think that might actually be due to Mantis fucking with her mind, initially I thought it was just "the power of the Solid dick."



News flash: women's butts move when they walk. Can you believe it!? There's nothing inherently sexual about it.



None of them go "splash mountain." Meryl and Naomi have some light flirting with Snake to relieve tension and immediately go back to the mission. Mei Ling knows Snake for the legend he is, and even remarks that she's surprised by his obvious attempts at hitting on her, being the lonely musher he is. This is all good writing because it portrays them for what they are: people. People find each other attractive. Hard to believe, I know, but it's true!

all of a sudden metal fucking gear is a landmark achievement in the portrayal of women in games, until of course kojima's liberal writing team left him resulting in a sea of sexism-filled stealth romps afterwards. can i have whatever you're smoking?

you gotta be pretty willfully ignorant to not understand the difference in portrayal between Eva, Wolf, Fortune and Meryl to shit like B&B unit. The former are actually fully realized characters, they are taken seriously and don't exist just to stand around and look hot.

B&B are literally just that, sexy models for you to do this to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB90RijHEiA

They aren't characters, not even an attempt at being characters, and then the game had the gall to have Drebin call you with some ultra grimdark backstory after that that no one gives a about shit.(I'll admit it was funny to me how Snake no sells it)

so you're totally willing to completely ignore the lengthy codec convos outlining each woman's backstory in MGS4? shit. the bosses in MGS4 are largely more fleshed out than in MGS3

amanda and paz are more fleshed out and interesting and less sexual on the whole than the vast majority of the preceding MGS female characters. both of them are post mgs4. STAHP

 

[GreyOcelot]

sorry. DP