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[Vex_]

I dont really see anything wrong with these gifs, imo.

The back flip for the Twin Snakes gif with the matrix bullet trail is over the top, but it is not uncommon for media to take inspiration from the movies especially if they are called the " Matrix". (two matrix movies came out the year prior in 2003)

As far as the other gifs, I notice they are named "nonsense". How is snake and raiden fighting back to back nonsense? Ocelot's signature hand pose? Venom, running around to take cover at the last second is nonsense? Why is that nonsense showing how close they were to nailing him? The gif where raiden puts the knife in his boot was to show how resourceful/quick thinking he was. You saw this at the end of MGS4 when he lost his arms, but still managed to fight.

 

[Palculator]

Regarding the slow motion in MGSV: I'm not sure about an increase of them as there are plenty of other slow motion shots in previous titles. It just seems reductive to dismiss them as pointless because why they are used might not be apparant at a glance. Given how sparse the dialogue in this game is and the fact that we have completely mute cutscenes that tell more than some of the verbose sequences in previous entries I'd say giving elements like slow motion a bit more contemplation is warranted. Looking at one of the .gifs OP seems to use as a bad example: That moment of Venom walking up to Huey is after Venom is asked how Huey should be punished (with Miller heavily implying he wants to execute him.) Which is very much a life or death situation like the other .gif of Venom escaping gunfire. And we have plenty of shots in the game that seem to focus on Venom between decision and action so highlighting another one doesn't seem out of place to me.

I'm not saying there's some magical answer to all of them at once, but they should be given more thought before being dismissed. They are effectively Kojima highlighting something, so it's more fruitful to ask "why?" and "what?" than to go "Fucking Hollywood!"

 

[Putyouinmyoven]

4) YEAH! SCIENCE BITCH! aka "we need to explain this!"
After MGS3, someone believed it was absolutely necessary to explain everything they had introduced as fictional stuff, which was a key part of a good MGS, with the good old science. So it began: nanomachines, AI, the Wolbachia bacteria. No more Vampires or photosynthetic old men, no more fiction, everything must be explained, possibly even retroactively and if we can't, well, who cares!
Guys, I hate this. It killed a good part of the charm MGS had. I like to believe Fortune was able to deviate those missiles without that chip simply because she strongly believed she could. I liked to believe the Cobra Unit wasn't some kind of freaks born out of a bottle, but the incarnation of the emotions a Naked Snake had to defeat in order to become the legendary, feared Big Boss we knew.
And it's not about science alone. The "we need to explain this" attitude involved characters too and it ruined them all! Big Boss, Liquid, Mantis, Kaz.. I can only save Campbell.

You nicely summed up my (and I'm guessing, many others) pet peeve with the games after MGS3, it really bought them down in my eyes, I think that a lot of fiction falls down when it tries to explain things that there was never a concrete preconceived idea for, like the TV show lost - the sense of wonder and mystery was phenomenal until they gave in to everyone asking for answers.

 

[DevilFox]

Welp, time to reply to some of the posts. But first, let me apologize if my tone sounds like this is it, like it or not, it's not my intention. Also, please don't see this thread as a Fuck Kojima, hail to Fukushima Fukushima being important for MGS is just a common point of view that I partially share and that I used to kick off the discussion. The main goal is to discuss whether or not you've noticed a change of style after MGS Portable Ops and if so, why you think it happened.

I dont really see anything wrong with these gifs, imo.

The back flip for the Twin Snakes gif with the matrix bullet trail is over the top, but it is not uncommon for media to take inspiration from the movies especially if they are called the " Matrix". (two matrix movies came out the year prior in 2003)

As far as the other gifs, I notice they are named "nonsense". How is snake and raiden fighting back to back nonsense? Ocelot's signature hand pose? Venom, running around to take cover at the last second is nonsense? Why is that nonsense showing how close they were to nailing him? The gif where raiden puts the knife in his boot was to show how resourceful/quick thinking he was. You saw this at the end of MGS4 when he lost his arms, but still managed to fight.

MGS1-2-3 gifs are example of something I'm ok with. I even picked a slow motion for MGS1 to show that I'm not against slow mo per se, as long as they're well used and placed. MGS3 is the one that started to have lots of them but MGSV just overdid it in my opinion, they're often out of place too, and all the lens flares.. :\ More than that, I dislike situations that hardly make sense like, you know, staring at Sahelanthropus rather than running away.. Sahelanthropus being teleported to a base just to disappear a second later.. that kind of stuff. It becomes less and less acceptable the more you take your game seriously.
TTS is, hopefully intentionally, a parody of MGS1. Inspiration is one thing, that's just ridiculous and it ain't even the worst. I used that just to show the difference with MGS1 gif.

Looking at one of the .gifs OP seems to use as a bad example That moment of Venom walking up to Huey is after Venom is asked how Huey should be punished (with Miller heavily implying he wants to execute him.) Which is very much a life or death situation like the other .gif of Venom escaping gunfire. And we have plenty of shots in the game that seem to focus on Venom between decision and action so highlighting another one doesn't seem out of place to me.

Yeah, I know that. But we also knew Huey survived long enough to see Hal and Emma, so.. that's to me is just a cool "walk omg look at me" slow motion. It would make more sense if you had to choose for Huey's life or death in those seconds, like the good old Fight - Run options for Nemesis in Resident Evil 3.

You nicely summed up my (and I'm guessing, many others) pet peeve with the games after MGS3, it really bought them down in my eyes, I think that a lot of fiction falls down when it tries to explain things that there was never a concrete preconceived idea for, like the TV show lost - the sense of wonder and mystery was phenomenal until they gave in to everyone asking for answers.

Yep, and it's one of the things that bother me most. I mean, let's say that Kojima was forced to keep going.. I understand the frustration but what reason did he have to shit on everything he had written before. He could've closed the saga with MGS4 without messing around with science, but he did.. and he did it again with MGSV, it's such a shift of style.

The vast majority of missions were the same with little variation, the needless open world structure clearly inspired by every other AAA game and the super dull and slowly told story. Even recurring characters were dull. It had its moment and the overarching gameplay was enjoyable but it could have been way better if it were a 10 hour linear game.

Yep. The open world structure in MGSV makes me wonder if Kojima wanted to challenge himself, prove that japanese industry was still damn good or.. he just wanted to do what West was doing. Sometimes I think his love for West over the years got bigger and bigger and this is one of the reason MGS changed some of its elements.
The bland characters in MGSV were a knife in the back, didn't see that coming at all. More than that, Kaz confirmed to be the real master mind and almost a man that cared for BB's dream more than BB himself did, lol.

Haven't read through the whole thread (just the OP) but I agree, this is the only thing that makes me question it. MGS4 marked an enormous change and arguably where it all came to a head (and Peace Walker and MGSV continued that), but there was also the effect of people such as Ryan Payton and then general Westernisation of the game. But MGS2 did have a good bit of the things that appeared later on, but then again if Murata was there at that time then perhaps that would explain it he did have an effect on some of the choices made but until Fukishima left he couldn't make all the changes he wanted. The enormous push towards prequels and the new-found obsession with Big Boss, and the desire to make EVERYTHING from MGS3 so important in MGS4 (and thus the ending of the series) is something I'd like to be explained myself. Looking back it just felt jarring at how big a change like that came in.

Totally agree. More than anything I'd like to know why Fukushima left when MGS4 was in development (remember, he was credited as Writer in the first trailer). Maybe he just wanted to live a new adventure or maybe he got pissed when Kojima told him "you know what Amazing idea you had with The Patriots in MGS2, the rulers of the world and blabla.. but imma gonna fuck things up by saying that The Patriots are an AI created by MGS3 crew. Hopefully you'll rike it."

> 4) YEAH! SCIENCE BITCH! aka "we need to explain this!"

This I'll agree with but I think he was mainly catering to the players as those seemed to be pretty heavy complaints about 2 in particular.

> 5) SOMEONE STOP CARING ABOUT LORE AND CONSISTENCY

Kojima always played fast and loose with continuity. Honestly 3 is pretty bad in this respect to, retconning what we knew about the patriot's Big Boss losing his eye in the 80s, etc.

1) Anti americanism is more serious than (example) "let's have the player deal with a US base and their prisoners". You probably agree with JayEH on the matter, here. We moved from the americann conspiracy of The Patriots, men who control the world, to the crew of MGS3 and then to a AI. That's it, a huge step back in my opinion and for what, to make some fans happy? :\

4) That's the reason for MGS4. But then he wanted to explain more and more, it was just not necessary and no one asked that. Plus, in my opinion, if he really believed in what he did with MGS1-2-3, with the fiction and meta stuff, he should've never take a step back and fix things (fix what) with science. I can apply this to a lot of devs that from one game to the next, listening to feedbacks from Mr John, changed their minds and managed to make a even lower quality product.

5) Correct, but with 4 they became serious in my opinion. Big Boss losing the eye in 1964 rather than in Outer Heaven is a detail we can deal with, right?

I think I replied to points 1-3 somwhere, forgive my laziness. I agree with the other post you've written, by the way.

Do the people who push this Fukushima thing really have any knowledge as to what Fukushima's actual role in the games was in a practical sense? Are there interviews and behind the scenes stuff detailing his personal insight on his work and process? It would be great to see all that if it exists.

If not, what is it based on? A desire to want to believe that there is a logical and simple explanation for declining quality in a creative work? It seems that every time a famous creator releases stuff which decline in quality fans want to reach for some simple universal explanation. Was his earlier work only good because of collaboration with someone else? Maybe that person is the real reason it was good! Was his earlier stuff ghostwritten? Etc. It seems to be hard to accept that people who make good things can also disappoint sometimes. Creative works are a challenge, and keeping up quality over decades is incredibly hard. Some people manage it by doing less. Some people manage it by just being that fucking good (or lucky). Most people struggle. Some just decide to quit while they're ahead. There is no perfect equation where you can go "this was good because A + B - C is the right formula and because the formula changed that explains everything". It can be hard to accept, but that's reality.

It's not really about disappointment, it's about change. The same thread for Resident Evil would be about disappointment because, well, how and why it changed it's pretty clear to everyone. Maybe there's a universal explanation hidden somewhere, right now I'm just interested in factors that contributed to the change and I think Fukushima is one of them.

 

[Dremark]

1) Anti americanism is more serious than (example) "let's have the player deal with a US base and their prisoners". You probably agree with JayEH on the matter, here. We moved from the americann conspiracy of The Patriots, men who control the world, to the crew of MGS3 and then to a AI. That's it, a huge step back in my opinion and for what, to make some fans happy? :

4) That's the reason for MGS4. But then he wanted to explain more and more, it was just not necessary and no one asked that. Plus, in my opinion, if he really believed in what he did with MGS1-2-3, with the fiction and meta stuff, he should've never take a step back and fix things (fix what) with science. I can apply this to a lot of devs that from one game to the next, listening to feedbacks from Mr John, changed their minds and managed to make a even lower quality product.

5) Correct, but with 4 they became serious in my opinion. Big Boss losing the eye in 1964 rather than in Outer Heaven is a detail we can deal with, right?

I think I replied to points 1-3 somwhere, forgive my laziness. I agree with the other post you've written, by the way.

The Patriots were an AI in MGS2 when this theme really came to the forefront. Moving backward the US was largely personified as Zero at least in the respect you're talking about because he was the one who put the Patriots in place.

Yeah I do heavily agree with the other post, the concepts of control and such were heavily personified as Zero in the earlier games, but they also continued to criticize US policy though PW and GZ.

In MGS4 he went back and explained things because he wanted to wrap everything up and make the fans happy, but I think in the later games he explained things to tie them together better. Naomi and Vamp were both being kept alive by Nanomachines, the vocal cord parasites were the reason for a lot of things in V.

I think the eye is actually a pretty good representation of most of his retcons. He'd already established Boss lost the eye fighting as a merc during the 80s, but he decided to retcon it in order to make it a factor in MGS3 and strengthen the narrative there. This is something he's been doing from the start:

In MG you kill Big Boss with a rocket launcher but yet in MG2 they established that when the west was bombing Outer Heaven somehow Boss was rescuing refugees (Ironically the Venom Snake twist from TPP actually resolves this, go figure).

I'm MGS Snake tells Naomi that he kill Big Boss in Zanzibar Land knowing he was his father, yet this had never been mentioned up until that point in the series.

I can't recall any contradictions in MGS2 but I'm sure there was something.

MGS3 had the eye, retconned the list of the Patriots to being the Wiseman's committee and probably a few other things.

4 changed Clark's gender to have the Shadow Moses incident be a purge of the Patriots (Or I guess Cipher now).

The thing is Kojima plays fast and loose with the continuity because he doesn't plan things out for future games and he wants to tell the strongest story he can. Most of these retcons made the story for the games they appeared in stronger and I think retroactively the only one that really was a negative was the Patriots being retconned in 3.

Admittedly it's all subjective but I don't think the retcons got worse. I would have preferred he work around the established story but he usually only fudged minor details.

 

[Kid Ying]

metal gear solid 4 is, bar none, the most personally disappointing game i have ever played.

it's a turgid, festering mess of a video game. everything about it is, to me, metal gear at its absolute worst. everything that made the first three some of my favorite games of all time is gone, with nothing of value to replace it.

i've managed to enjoy every subsequent game a decent bit more than mgs4, but i definitely feel like mgs4 was the breaking point where the series lost something and never got it back.

its always nice to know i'm not alone on this and that these feelings are valid.

My thoughts exactly. I was a huge fan of the series. I was the type of guy that bought every version of the gsmes on the series and mgs4 managed to kill all of it. I still hold the first 3 games dearly in my heart, but i'm not interested in the series anymore. Never even wanted to play PW and MGS5. I just looked at the story to see what was going on and that's it.

And i dont want to go back. Looking at mgs5, it doesnt even look like something i would enjoy.

 

[Number_6]

I'd saved this thread until I finished MGSV's story. Now I have. (BTW, I love this game, they've perfected the gameplay. Story was sparse, but I'm cool with that after 4).

Must say I largely disagree with OP, but I do believe that MGS4 is by far the worst of the series, and it does suffer from much of what OP states. But the contention that these issues mainly started after MGS3 was done? No.

The sexualization of women has already been much addressed. Suffice it to say that I agree that it has been going on for the whole series, and that the case of Quiet is just a case of more advanced technology and the fact that MGSV has buddies while the other games do not. Too many deniers here have forgotten certain gameplay elements in MGS1 and 3, such as how Naked Snake had "Press R1 for peek-a-boob" as part of its scenes or Meryl had to be identified by her sexy ass. Strongly written characters or not, the player is given every opportunity to oggle these women as gameplay.

These games have also always been Hollywood. Cheesey, sometimes cringey, but often fun Hollywood. MGS1 had that cinematic intro. Rex roars like a goddamn T-Rex. The whole of MGS3 is like James Bond crossed with Rambo. I don't see the change.

I agree with the over-explanation bit. EVERYTHING WAS NANOMACHINES was just awful, and MGSV doesn't do much better here. If you listened to tapes, nanomachines just got swapped out for

Spoiler

parasites

for this installment, which messes with the mystery and charm of MGS

Spoiler

3

.

As for the player-character twists, I appreciate Raiden for how he represents the player as a rookie who idolizes Solid Snake with no sneaking experience save VR simulation. Good one, Kojima & Co. I think MGS2 is a masterpiece, although it does have its flaws, like the Emma parts.

Now for Venom. I dig it.

Spoiler

It's another type of spin on the Raiden thing. The character is the player. The idea that you could be Big Boss is pretty cool, and not so far fetched. I mean, why not? It's already been done with Raiden, although he became his own man by the end of MGS2. Maybe it's a little bit rehash-ish and it was certainly no surprise to me--I was on to them as soon as I chose a new face, had surgery, still looked like Big Boss, and then was led out of the hospital by a masked dude with Kiefer's voice--but I enjoyed the idea, and I love how they tied it back to the original Metal Gear.

But does this undermine the themes laid out by previous entries like MGS1 and MGS2?

I agree wholeheartedly with OP, great read.

I especially find baffling the regression of the message from MGS2 to MGSV. With Raiden the game was basically saying: beware of blind idolization, you shouldn't strive to be someone else (or better yet the image you have in your head of someone else), find your own path and become your own person with your own values to pass on.
In MGSV, with Venom and the ending, Kojma is going against the powerful message of Sons of Liberty: "You are Big Boss too!". Which is even more ridiculous if you think you are fundamentally inconsequential in the MGS universe. But you are Big Boss too, beLIEve, aren't you excited?

I disagree. MGS2 was a masterfully done multiple mindfuck that made use of the fact that the player was a person in the real world playing this story as a video game--but at least it ended on a clear theme. Live your life, be your own man, make your own choices, don't be a tool.

Yes, MGSV has

Spoiler

Big Boss praising and thanking Venom for furthering his legend and being "Big Boss" with him and for him. Yes, there is the idea that even the player can be Big Boss. Yes, this seems to go against the MGS2 message because the player (and Venom) is just blindly following the ideals and living the life set out for him by another person. He (and the player) is just Big Boss's tool, despite what Big Boss says. And this is celebrated.

But wait. Is Kojima really going against the message of MGS2?

Spoiler

What happens to Venom immediately after that scene? What did it say on the back of that tape again? Oh, yeah. Immediately after that scene, what happens is that the blindly loyal tool of Big Boss, who just found out the truth, just found out he had no more life of his own or choices of his own, embraced his role as Big Boss's double and then went out and died at the hands of Solid Snake, in Big Boss's place, trying to clean up Big Boss's mess.

So no, I don't think this goes against the message of MGS2. I think it pretty clearly says to the player: "Umm, probably don't do that".

 

[KOMANI]

I'm watching the OHN March Metal Gear stream, and DRK tells the whole chat Fukushima was killed in a Japanese mafia incident. We know this to be false.
So I go on and research Fukushima again, just to see if anything pops up... I found a Russian Twitter account that seems dedicated to this very topic.
Items I read:
1. Fukushima left, not fired. In fact, it's a known fact he was part of the Mgs4 writing team before leaving.
2. He did co write the first 3 MGS.
3. He has a credit on a PS3 title called "Rain"

 

[DevilFox]

I'm watching the OHN March Metal Gear stream, and DRK tells the whole chat Fukushima was killed in a Japanese mafia incident. We know this to be false.
So I go on and research Fukushima again, just to see if anything pops up... I found a Russian Twitter account that seems dedicated to this very topic.
Items I read:
1. Fukushima left, not fired. In fact, it's a known fact he was part of the Mgs4 writing team before leaving.
2. He did co write the first 3 MGS.
3. He has a credit on a PS3 title called "Rain"

Yeah? I didn't know about point 3. I liked Rain except for the gameplay, too simple and straightforward. It's one of those games that you can only fully enjoy the first time, with very poor replay value.
Anyway, unfortunately I've got nothing new to say on the topic. I can't find any info on Fukushima, not even about the reason behind his departure which would be very interesting to know. Oh right, I can confirm that my affection for MGS has been killed, lol. I can only wait to see what Kojima will do with his own team and creative freedom because ehi, with all the praises he's receiving, I'm sure we're in for something very special from a genius (yep, little sarcasm here)

 

[RSB]

metal gear solid 4 is, bar none, the most personally disappointing game i have ever played.

it's a turgid, festering mess of a video game. everything about it is, to me, metal gear at its absolute worst. everything that made the first three some of my favorite games of all time is gone, with nothing of value to replace it.

i've managed to enjoy every subsequent game a decent bit more than mgs4, but i definitely feel like mgs4 was the breaking point where the series lost something and never got it back.

its always nice to know i'm not alone on this and that these feelings are valid.

100% agree.

MGS4 was an abomination that nearly destroyed my love for the Metal Gear franchise. In fact, to protect my sanity as a Metal Gear fan I decided to consider MGS2 as the end of the franchise (with MGS3 being a nice bonus prequel) MGS4, and everything that came after, is just terrible fanfiction with good gameplay.

So happy Kojima is finally free of the unsalvageable mess MGS had become. I want him to actually be creative again.

 

[Kazuhira]

I dunno,loved the shit out of mgs4.
1,2 and 3 are definitely the highlights of the franchise though.

 

[Serpens007]

I feel that MGS took a different approach thanks to the backlash after MGS2. MGS3 was more of a safeplace with the Cold War setting. It was well written though, but it added little to the plot of the whole saga that developed with MGS2.

People were like "uughh, MGS2 story's makes no sense, it's sooo stupid, wtf was Kojima thinking". So I imagine that with MGS4, Kojima changed the original plan of The Patriots beign a Bilderberg-like group pulling the string and went with stupid directions.

I enjoyed MGS4, it's a fun action-ride game, but the story was dissapointment.

 

[CHC]

This a great bit of speculation and insight, OP, I really enjoyed reading it. After being on the fence about MGS4 and then hating Peace Walker and MGSV, I more or less consider MGS a trilogy. It's sad that they couldn't stick to what made the previous games great and the influence of weird sexism / juvenile depiction of women crept in, along with too much focus on explaining things that should have been left mysterious, while obscuring things that shouldn't have been.

I'm somewhat interested in what Kojima is going to be working on but he definitely needs someone to temper his nuttiness. "Honesty" (as you said) is an important word as well - there was so much deception and game-playing before the release of MGSV and all for what? A relatively gutted and unfinished feeling game. It really gave the impression that he was bullshitting to cover the fact that he had less to show than he wanted to, and in turn it damaged his reputation in my eyes to some degree.

 

[pizzacat]

Basically MGS4 ruined everything?


No falsities found

 

[CHC]

Also OP, you forgot to post the mug cutscene from MGSV. The ultimate moment of stupidity.

1:20 long scene to show Snake silently walk into a room and look at a mug. A mug - like what you drink coffee out of! A mug that sits atop a stupid and meaningless robot that never even winds up amounting to anything (Battle Gear). Unbelievable.

 

[family_guy]

Basically MGS4 ruined everything?


No falsities found

I'd say the story of MGS2 set up the failure of MGS4. The Patriots storyline was always nonsensical and shit in my opinion.

 

[Mac the KNife]

Disagree about Venom though, I love that aspect of TPP. MGS has always been about anti hero worship. You see little bits of it in MGS1 and in MGS2 it is pretty full force. Anybody can be snake given the right situation as said by Ocelot and Big Boss himself. When you go back to especially MGS1 you hear all these awesome tales of Big Boss. He literally knew EVERYONE according to that game. The way they even talk about him is like a Jesus figure. Well in TPP we know why all these legends of him are so absurd, because he's literally in two places at once. The Big Boss games come down to breaking down the legend of Big Boss. He wasn't this amazing soldier, he was a figure head who with the help of a body double spread his legend to absurd levels. He's one of the biggest assholes in the series who ends up doing to Venom exactly what the american government did to The Boss. He's a hypocrite.

Venom being an "empty vessel" was always fine to me. In fact I was fine with him not speaking throughout most of the game even when I thought he was Big Boss. Though there were a couple of instances where he should have said something cough cough jeep ride. I do end up liking the twist because it works on multiple levels for me. It fits into the theme of anti hero worship the series has always had, establishes Big Boss as an asshole, and is a thank you to the fans by giving them the title of Big Boss.

I do agree that Kojima just started running out of steam towards the end and as a result the overall series plot suffered. And yes the depiction of women got a lot worse you're right there. As far as the science stuff goes it seems to be this weird Kojima obsession to back everything with science (even if its MGS science). This is even present in Policenauts. I would prefer the more supernatural aspects of things but I think it is just his style to do that and as the series kept going he wanted to explain more things.

Mission 46, just in case.

Spoiler

I also liked the idea of having the player essentially hijacking Big Boss's identity, I just think the game went about it in a supremely stupid way. Instead of exploring concepts of dual-identities, misinformation and leadership naturally, we're stuck with another story with comas, hypnotherapy and advanced plastic surgery. A game where Big Boss, unscathed, rides into the sunset for no good reason.

It would have been more interesting to me if they ignored The Man Who Sold The World by leaving Big Boss in his coma (as he so often is in this series) to explore The Man Who Stole The World, embrace Venom, the player character, as an active participant in hijacking the Legend of Big Boss. It shouldn't have been a plot twist, it should have been a feature.

 

[akidnamededdy]

Great OP, very well thought out and explained.

As someone who never even heard Fukushima's name until the ramp up to Phantom Pain, a lot of this makes a lot of sense. The portrayal of women in particular got considerably more juvenile at the point that he left (and I say that as someone who really doesn't mind that stuff...because I love boobs. Sorry). Sniper Wolf and Meryl and the Boss and Eva and Fortune all felt like great characters in the end, with a mostly reasonable layer of sex appeal in there--kind of gave them a femme fatale feeing (this layer was much thinner for the Boss, though apparently that wasn't Kojima's intention--reading some of his original ideas for her is truly frightening).

Then in MGS4 you've got the BB unit...I actually really liked the concept (and the boss fights themselves were pretty memorable--Octopus is one of my favorites) but modeling them after real life supermodels seemed bizarre at the time. And then you get the hidden photoshoots with them and it's just weird. And where Sniper Wolf had her whole dramatic monologue and Fortune had a pretty decent arc herself (I was legit shocked when she got shot, it was a great scene), the BB members just get some goofy creepypasta level shit read to you by Drebin over the codec when you're done ogling them.

I didn't do much of the bonus stuff in Peace Walker but you don't really have to in order to see the creeper vibes coming through strong; the first cutscene where you see Paz, you can zoom in and see through her clothes. I saw the button prompt and pushed it unaware of the result, and when I saw it I was just confused. Why is this in the game? I just met this character and she's ostensibly a schoolgirl, it's just weird.

And then there's Quiet. Total opposite end of the spectrum from the Boss. Based on a model, designed to be sexy first and foremost with a tiny smear of character to her. Like...I own multiple Senran Kagura games and am saving up some money to import DOAX3 (once they get their heads on straight and add Tina), and Quiet made ME uncomfortable. It was especially dumb how Kojima kept insisting there was a really good reason for the way she was dressed and that we'd be ashamed of whatever. If he wanted to spend untold hours in a mocap studio trying to shove a camera up Stephanie Joosten's butt then that's his prerogative, but don't try and make ME feel like an asshole for it, Kojima.

I'm going to give his next game a fair shake because he IS Kojima after all, but I've gotta say that maybe giving him total free reign WASN'T what Sony should have done. Dude is brilliant but absolutely needs some kind of leash.

 

[Lucael]

1) THE THEME OF ANTI AMERICANISM TOOK A BACK SEAT
This is probably one of the most evident things happened, since it basically changed what the Patriots were meant to be, a very core element of MGS lore. I also think that the original meaning was something that Fukushima wanted more than Kojima, simply because.. well, Kojima changed it. This article, The Decline of Anti-Americanism in Metal Gear, perfectly explains my opinion on the matter.
In particular, this piece (from MGS2 Grand Game Plan, page 37):

and Fukushima's profile in MGS2 make me believe there was a strong vision for something else than what, later, has become. (extra: Kojima had more style with his profile, though)

Honestly, the anti-Americanism theme was just hypocritical.

1) The game is heavily influenced by american movies style and tropes (even in MGS and MGS2). It was, at that time, the most hollywoodian of japanese games.
2) The game presents a lot of american symbols in a respectful way (MGS2 ending and New York)
3) American government being the enemy in MGS2 and Patriots (if you see them as the core "values" of USA) don't come up form anti-Americanism but from an acknowledgement of their power. That's not anti-Americanism, it's just a recognition of USA power and they're used just because they're cool.

It's the same for the supposed "peace" theme we saw from MGS in ending credits and later on. It's just a lie, the game is trying to give a peace message using a lot of war-porn elements.

Going "out" of the games, is worth to mention and remember that 9/11 happened (when MGS2 was going to be released) and war against terrorism happened. MGS3 was "safe" for his time period.

 

[Jawmuncher]

Nothing will ever beat the original MGS trilogy for me when it comes to metal gear. Everything after paled in comparison.

 

[K' Dash]

There are more MGS games after Snake Eater?

In my humble opinion everything after MGS3 deserves as much attention as the CDi Zelda Games.

Might as well not exist.

 

[ferenz]

I remember being heavily disappointed with MGS 2 but then completely in love with MGS 3. MGS1 and MGS3 (along with Demon Souls) are the only games I can remember playing through > 2 times in the last couple decades. Like somebody said previously, MGS4 was one of the most disappointing games I've ever finished. The absurd anime tone, constant cringe-worthy cutscenes of people shitting their pants or snake being old/helpless started building a frustration that culminated with the classic(ly-awful) "we love each other super duper forever and now we must shoot everyone!" scene. It was like they threw away all semblance of telling a serious, dramatic story and started writing for twelve year old Japanese girls instead. I was blown away that it received such positive reviews and continue to be shocked when I see people professing love and admiration for it. The interesting thing is that those same people always seem to dislike MGS1 and MGS3, snake eater especially, so I guess there's just a cultural divide and we're on opposites sides of it. To me, the failure is not so much in the switch to another storytelling style, as everyone likes different things obv. It's more the complete inconsistency in tone over the course of the games; I could be convinced that 1 and 3 were developed/directed by a completely different team than 2/4.

 

[KOMANI]

Yeah? I didn't know about point 3. I liked Rain except for the gameplay, too simple and straightforward. It's one of those games that you can only fully enjoy the first time, with very poor replay value.
Anyway, unfortunately I've got nothing new to say on the topic. I can't find any info on Fukushima, not even about the reason behind his departure which would be very interesting to know. Oh right, I can confirm that my affection for MGS has been killed, lol. I can only wait to see what Kojima will do with his own team and creative freedom because ehi, with all the praises he's receiving, I'm sure we're in for something very special from a genius (yep, little sarcasm here)

http://m.vk.com/mgstation/fukushima if you ignore his opinions, there's some good evidence of how much Fukushima contributed.

 

[Angel_DvA]

Damn, the amount of hyperbole in this thread...

I don't think we should talk about MGSV so quickly after finished it, it's a game that still haven't released all its secrets and not enough people have taken the time to analyse/Digest it completely, Kojima games still need time to get recognized at their real values...

Pythonselkan just released an amazing ~4h analysis video that proves that Kojima is still better than 99% of the creative in this industry, DG makes an awesome one too, but there isn't any english sub at this time (100% french but it will have english sub soon...)

I don't understand the complaint about women in MGS, the most important character of the series is The Boss, everything is turning over her, does they looks sexy ? Yes and what ? I have no problem with this...

I'm tired of this shit when people complaint about video games female characters, just take a look at other medias or real life, women loves to be sexy and we as men are suppose to love it lol.

For anyone that disagree, just be serious a second a take a look at wowen like Beyoncé, Rihanna, Miley Cyrus or women in Blockbuster movies or even models, Quiet look like to have more cloths or personality than any of those female...

 

[Mr. RHC]

Damn, the amount of hyperbole in this thread...

I don't think we should talk about MGSV so quickly after finished it, it's a game that still haven't released all its secrets and not enough people have taken the time to analyse/Digest it completely, Kojima games still need time to get recognized at their real values...

Pythonselkan just released an amazing ~4h analysis video that proves that Kojima is still better than 99% of the creative in this industry, DG makes an awesome one too, but there isn't any english sub at this time (100% french but it will have english sub soon...)

I don't understand the complaint about women in MGS, the most important character of the series is The Boss, everything is turning over her, does they looks sexy ? Yes and what ? I have no problem with this...

I'm tired of this shit when people complaint about video games female characters, just take a look at other medias or real life, women loves to be sexy and we as men are suppose to love it lol.

For anyone that disagree, just be serious a second a take a look at wowen like Beyoncé, Rihanna, Miley Cyrus or women in Blockbuster movies or even models, Quiet look like to have more cloths or personality than any of those female...

Quality post.

 

[DevilFox]

I feel that MGS took a different approach thanks to the backlash after MGS2. MGS3 was more of a safeplace with the Cold War setting. It was well written though, but it added little to the plot of the whole saga that developed with MGS2.

People were like "uughh, MGS2 story's makes no sense, it's sooo stupid, wtf was Kojima thinking". So I imagine that with MGS4, Kojima changed the original plan of The Patriots beign a Bilderberg-like group pulling the string and went with stupid directions.

I enjoyed MGS4, it's a fun action-ride game, but the story was dissapointment.

Probably because there was no intention to continue after MGS2 and the mess they did with MGS4 sounds like a proof to me. But then again, they could've developed the story 10 times better than they did.

I'm somewhat interested in what Kojima is going to be working on but he definitely needs someone to temper his nuttiness. "Honesty" (as you said) is an important word as well - there was so much deception and game-playing before the release of MGSV and all for what? A relatively gutted and unfinished feeling game. It really gave the impression that he was bullshitting to cover the fact that he had less to show than he wanted to, and in turn it damaged his reputation in my eyes to some degree.

Definitely. What's the point of lying like that? MGS2 marketing was smart and pretty cool. With MGS3 and MGS4 they advertised things that didn't make it into the game, it happens. But with MGSV he lied to us with trailers even a month before release.. trailers edited by himself!

http://m.vk.com/mgstation/fukushima if you ignore his opinions, there's some good evidence of how much Fukushima contributed.

If only I knew russian.. I'll trust Google translator for once.

Damn, the amount of hyperbole in this thread...

I don't think we should talk about MGSV so quickly after finished it, it's a game that still haven't released all its secrets and not enough people have taken the time to analyse/Digest it completely, Kojima games still need time to get recognized at their real values...

Pythonselkan just released an amazing ~4h analysis video that proves that Kojima is still better than 99% of the creative in this industry, DG makes an awesome one too, but there isn't any english sub at this time (100% french but it will have english sub soon...)

I don't understand the complaint about women in MGS, the most important character of the series is The Boss, everything is turning over her, does they looks sexy ? Yes and what ? I have no problem with this...

I'm tired of this shit when people complaint about video games female characters, just take a look at other medias or real life, women loves to be sexy and we as men are suppose to love it lol.

For anyone that disagree, just be serious a second a take a look at wowen like Beyoncé, Rihanna, Miley Cyrus or women in Blockbuster movies or even models, Quiet look like to have more cloths or personality than any of those female...

Joke post? What can I say. Skipping the women part, I've seen some clips of Pythonselkan's video. I don't see any evidence that "Kojima is still better than 99% of the creative in this industry", only another collection of cool theories and tricks with no substance which is, whether you like it or not, what really matters in the end. Anyway, ok, let's wait for all the secrets to be unveiled, maybe they will save the quality of the game all of a sudden.

 

[Chinner]

I like how Quiet ( a mostly naked and silent woman) has more personality now than an actual human being now.

 

[potatohead]

The only thing that was maybe bad is trying to give a literal explanation for everything that happened.

In a sci-fi/fantasy universe with so much crazy and cool stuff it's really not necessary to explain everything.

IMO it was a mistake to explain everything too literally, because even that takes away some of the magic of the events. Speculation could have made some of those scenes even grander.

But as far as the holy trinity of MGS goes from 1-2-3 nothing touches that: perfection.

 

[mikefrails]

We never used to take MGS stories this seriously before. New fans perhaps?

 

[demosthenes]

I agree with a lot of the OP but god damn the gameplay in V was so good. Would love another game to use the gameplay of V without the back drop of MGS.

 

[Palculator]

IMO it was a mistake to explain everything too literally, because even that takes away some of the magic of the events. Speculation could have made some of those scenes even grander.

That's mostly due to "fans" not getting MGS2, I feel. There was no need to answer any question left open by MGS2, but people felt the need to force Kojima under threat of death to do so. Wanting every little shit detail (and this includes things like Quiet) to make 100% sense according to some arbitrary measure of believability or whatever lore people accepted as "the Metal Gear" is what hurt the franchise a lot, when from MGS on it was pretty clear that lore was being played fast and loose in favour of using Metal Gear as a base to convey abstract ideas.

 

[TheStruggler]

gameplay wise

MGSV> MGS4

story wise

MGS4> MGSV

I like the craziness of the mgs4 story, at least mgs4 had a story to begin with.

MGSV "Boss we need to blow up some tanks......because..."

 

[Glitchesarecool]

I don't think we should talk about MGSV so quickly after finished it, it's a game that still haven't released all its secrets and not enough people have taken the time to analyse/Digest it completely, Kojima games still need time to get recognized at their real values...

What secrets? Is there some hidden code that unlocks the Big Boss portion of the game? The game has been poured over, examined in the context of Kojima's other works. You look at the cut content and there still isn't anything there that makes for a bigger, better picture. It helps wrap some things up and would be a nice climax, but ultimately that doesn't answer anything brought up by OP. It ties a neat bow on the Liquid storyline.

Pythonselkan just released an amazing ~4h analysis video that proves that Kojima is still better than 99% of the creative in this industry...

Like what? What sets Kojima apart? Because in MGSV especially, the story was extremely middling and lacked any real substance.

I don't understand the complaint about women in MGS, the most important character of the series is The Boss, everything is turning over her, does they looks sexy ? Yes and what ? I have no problem with this...

For anyone that disagree, just be serious a second a take a look at wowen like Beyoncé, Rihanna, Miley Cyrus or women in Blockbuster movies or even models, Quiet look like to have more cloths or personality than any of those female...

That aside, if you're drawing equal comparisons between The Boss and Quiet there's no hope for you.

 

[synce]

This argument about depiction of women, seriously? MGS has always had sexy women. Sniper Wolf had her boobs out in the freezing cold and frankly there's nothing wrong with that. Let people make the games they want to make.

The Hollywood thing too. Every MGS game is trying to be a movie. That didn't start with 4. Did the series go downhill after MGS1? Yes, very steadily too, but that started way back at 2. Look up Agnes Kaku's interview about translating the game, it's pretty amusing.

 

[akidnamededdy]

I don't think we should talk about MGSV so quickly after finished it, it's a game that still haven't released all its secrets and not enough people have taken the time to analyse/Digest it completely, Kojima games still need time to get recognized at their real values

I don't know what secrets you're expecting to be revealed that will suddenly make MGSV a good game but godspeed.

This argument about depiction of women, seriously? MGS has always had sexy women. Sniper Wolf had her boobs out in the freezing cold and frankly there's nothing wrong with that. Let people make the games they want to make.

The Hollywood thing too. Every MGS game is trying to be a movie. That didn't start with 4. Did the series go downhill after MGS1? Yes, very steadily too, but that started way back at 2. Look up Agnes Kaku's interview about translating the game, it's pretty amusing.

I love skimpy busty women bouncing around in videogames and otherwise just as much as anybody else but you can't deny that something is just seriously off with Quiet.

 

[TGO]

3) WOMEN'S DEPICTION GOT WORSE
This has been discussed extensively on GAF recently, starting from here. We moved from good or decent female characters, meaning they were either strong, smart or both, independent, well written with a good background and something to add to the plot, to some kind of talking puppets with tits.. sometimes, not even talking.
I put in the first group characters such as The Boss, Naomi (MGS1), Olga, Meryl, Mei Ling (MGS1), Emma, Eva, Sniper Wolf and Para Medic.
The second group includes

How are they any different from Quiet? Because they talk? You could even perv on Eva in MGS3.
Let's not forget the photoshoot in MGSVR Missions or the posters and magazines in MGS2/3, Selective memory?
Or are we ignoring that?

 

[akidnamededdy]

How are they any different from Quiet? Because they talk? You could even perv on Eva in MGS3.
Let's not forget the photoshoot in MGSVR Missions or the posters and magazines in MGS2/3, Selective memory?
Or are we ignoring that?

Uhhhhh for starters, yes?

 

[Palculator]

Ugh, so this bump really is just round two of "No, I like this guy nobody knows anything about much more than Kojima and will credit anything I liked to him instead!"

Uhhhhh for starters, yes?

And yet, the characters that talked never really commented about them being open to their sexualisation whereas Quiet clearly indulges in it if you look at how she acts. Funny how communication can be non-verbal.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

I like how Quiet ( a mostly naked and silent woman) has more personality now than an actual human being now.

More chest = more personality, obvs

 

[Boney]

Good read and the decline in quality in MGS is more palpable than any other series that continues to exist and still has a mega fanbase.

As others, MGS3 being retconned so badly was the worst. I loved how the Cobra unit were the trials and tribulations he had to overcome by letting go of his emotions to become the ultimate soldier and live up to the title of Big Boss by honoring her legacy but Eith Loyalty to the end for her and not his country. It was a perfect full circle ending. As much bullshit mgs4 is all round, peace walker was even worse because it retreads everything that was set up in the worst way imaginable and makes big boss seem like a pitiful idiot and weak excuse of a man. Portable ops at least had the decency to be worthwhile because he realizes there's a reason to keep fighting, for his fellow soldiers who are warriors that shouldn't be subjugated to anyone. It's superflous because mgs3 let's you fill in all the blanks and it's super cheesy, but at least it doesn't shit all over the past games by making everyone a moron:

I like how Quiet ( a mostly naked and silent woman) has more personality now than an actual human being now.

I mean Beyoncé just dances around, what's personable about that huh!?

 

[DarkKyo]

More chest = more personality, obvs

 

[DevilFox]

How are they any different from Quiet? Because they talk? You could even perv on Eva in MGS3.
Let's not forget the photoshoot in MGSVR Missions or the posters and magazines in MGS2/3, Selective memory?
Or are we ignoring that?

My memory is perfectly fine. As already stated elsewhere, I don't really care about easter eggs or short comedy clips when it comes to women's depiction. What I do care about is the character as a whole, her background, motifs, basically who she is, why she's there and how this is portrayed in the game. It's not about a dress or a cleavage, it's about context and intentions.
Therefore, The Boss showing her chest is fine, because the intention is not "look at my tits, boys!". Eva is fine, because she's seducing Snake for a good reason.. and the player, thanks to the first person view. It plays nice with the ending and its twist.
Simply answer the questions: why is she doing that? and is there anything this character has to say? Above all else, how is she portayed? Because good ideas are worthless if they remain ideas, right? Like the child soldiers in MGSV, just an idea. That's why, no matter how deep we try to picture Quiet, her relationship with Venom and her inability to talk, it's just impossible to me to see her as anything more than a sexy body, a pleasure for my eyes when I'm on the helicopter. How does he (Kojima) justify what he did with those animations? What's the purpose?

 

[Angel_DvA]

People are really asking what Kojima did better than 99% of the industry ? like really ? I don't know any games that have the réalisation, ambition, character design, lore, gameplay, mastering of level design, photography, cutscenes, visuals, a real message to us players/humans etc... than MGS series.

This industry has become so bland and so uncreative that they need to push annual games, remake or remaster to hide their lacks of ambition/talents, people seem to love their fast food type of games and that's really sad, do you think something like Far Cry Primal is really good ? a game that bring nothing to the industry and re-used maps from their past games ? do you really want to compare something like this with an MGS game ? ( I could have choose any other licences )

Kojima never did easy sequels with little changes like 90% of this industry, each one of his games has brought something new, something fresh, something that people can recognize as a masterpiece, sure, sometimes it doesn't work, like the scene with Skull face and snake during the car travel and so what? He could have fixed this scene easily by adding a narrative ellipsis or boosting the speed of the car or doing something else but he chooses to be true to himself, to his project, to the open world he created... I prefer someone who's failing for trying than people who go safe everytimes.

I probably was in the minority of people that want Kojima to surprise us, to not give what people wanted and return to his own self and it's what he did, I'm sure people like him will be missed in a few years when all you have will be Destiny, Call of duty, Halo, Uncharted and all those easy sequels that pleased the fans and the casual...

Like I said before, it's too early to judge a game like MGSV, almost everything it did is amazing, gameplay, OST ( even if some of the best tracks aren't in the game like wtf ? ), photography, characters, visuals, gameplay possibility in this open world game, it's just crazy !!! you can do all your wants, you can create your own style of game, your own story, I don't know a game today that have the freedom of MGSV.

Sure the game has issues, it's an unfinished one and I'm disappointed, disappointed about the fact that Kojima lose his time and money by travelling a lot, disappointed that Konami didn't trust Kojima until the end, disappointed that the game is unfinished and never be fixed, but even with all those defaults, this game is awesome and it's killing me a little everytime I see people trashing this game without seeing what it did good.

I won't come back on the female topic, I won't change my mind about it, I don't think Quiet has a bad design, some girls love it, some men love it, it's how it is, I don't think it's more outrageous than any looks from women in diverse industry/real live.

 

[Sub_Level]

We never used to take MGS stories this seriously before. New fans perhaps?

On forums I went to over a decade ago, people took the stories seriously and discussed them as they do now.

Are you talking about old neogaf or something?

 

[Not Spaceghost]

Damn, the amount of hyperbole in this thread...

I don't think we should talk about MGSV so quickly after finished it, it's a game that still haven't released all its secrets and not enough people have taken the time to analyse/Digest it completely, Kojima games still need time to get recognized at their real values..

The game is completed, there is nothing left, and as some one who has spend 140 hours playing through it, listening to all the tapes, searching through all the maps, I can tell you there is nothing left. The game is exactly what it seems to be, an incomplete disappointment.

Pythonselkan just released an amazing ~4h analysis video that proves that Kojima is still better than 99% of the creative in this industry, DG makes an awesome one too, but there isn't any english sub at this time (100% french but it will have english sub soon...)

No level of indepth analysis will change the fact that while the game had incredible gameplay the story lacked any real gravitas, the ending stripped away most of the meaning of the game, and almost nothing of note really happened. The worst part is that the franchise is still fundamentally the same without this game.

I don't understand the complaint about women in MGS, the most important character of the series is The Boss, everything is turning over her, does they looks sexy ? Yes and what ? I have no problem with this...

I'm tired of this shit when people complaint about video games female characters, just take a look at other medias or real life, women loves to be sexy and we as men are suppose to love it lol.

The complaint is that female characters have become garbage in this franchise, literally the only exception is The Boss. She's not the norm she's one character in 7 games. Female characters post MGS3 have been increasingly painful to watch. The get minimal development, contradictory characterization, frustratingly bad motivation and generally aren't particularly complex, in fact any perceived complexity is usually hidden under the guise of "mystery".

 

[Angel_DvA]

The game is completed, there is nothing left, and as some one who has spend 140 hours playing through it, listening to all the tapes, searching through all the maps, I can tell you there is nothing left. The game is exactly what it seems to be, an incomplete disappointment.

Yes, it was completed for the release date but the game itself need 1 more year.

 

[Palculator]

The game is completed, there is nothing left, and as some one who has spend 140 hours playing through it, listening to all the tapes, searching through all the maps, I can tell you there is nothing left. The game is exactly what it seems to be, an incomplete disappointment.

You're taking them too literally, they just mean -- to borrow from another thread -- that the dust hasn't really settled and the game needs to percolate for a while, kind of like MGS2 did.

Spoiler

Or Moby Dick.

 

[KOMANI]

This topic is about the Influence Fukushima had on the MGS series. Stay on topic or defend your agenda in the countless other Metal Gear threads that are more suitable. No reason to keep bumping the thread over this dispute.

 

[hateradio]

We never used to take MGS stories this seriously before. New fans perhaps?

Are you a new fan?

 

[DevilFox]

First post is updated with Gameinformer's interview and a new paragraph, "From now on, call me.. George Lucas" about Blaustein and the localisation process which is another thing that changed over the years with kojima being more and more involved.
There was a good interview with Blaustein but I lost it, so if anyone has the link saved somewhere, please share it.