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[Palculator]

News flash: women's butts move when they walk. Can you believe it!? There's nothing inherently sexual about it. Sure, the butt needs to be plump and shapely, but considering Meryl is "built all right" and squats like a champ, obviously it'll apply to her. It'll apply to most fit female soldiers. The entire thing is a stroke of genius in game design, and amusing to boot.

I dunno, man. Snake says she has a great butt and the game clearly highlights it and then makes you focus on it. Don't think you can pull the "nothing inherently sexual" card in this case. Might as well call Sniper Wolf's cleavage not sexual because "News Flash: Women have breasts" (and ignore Shinkawa drawing her naked whilst we're at it.)

I agree it's a great gameplay element, though. But it just means they found a genius way to justify fanservice. Meryl having stereotypical daddy issues, sticking a PAL code up her cooch, wanting to impress the almighty Snake and failing basically every time at it besides not stepping on a landmine, a triumph immediately ruined by her getting shot and needing saving. Add the implied rape and it becomes clear she isn't really the great portrayal you make her out to be.

 

[News Bot]

all of a sudden metal fucking gear is a landmark achievement in the portrayal of women in games, until of course kojima's liberal writing team left him resulting in a sea of sexism-filled stealth romps afterwards. can i have whatever you're smoking?

MGS1-3 have some incredible depictions of women in fiction in general. Rose is a very realistic girl, considering she was partially modeled after Kojima's own experiences with his wife. Meryl is strong and independent, but she's used as an example in the game's anti-war message. Olga, also strong and independent, but also a loving mother.

EVA is sexualized, but it's for a purpose. Not just because. Sex appeal is a major part of spy culture. It doesn't matter whether the spy is male or female. Fucking your way through is a time tested and proven method in espionage and it's doubtful we'd be here right now without it if a bunch of British blokes didn't shag their way through Europe.

Seriously, I think you're the one smoking something. You haven't given an example of actual sexualization. You've got upset that women's butts move. Did you know a man's butt will move when he walks too? Assuming you don't have two pancakes back there.

I dunno, man. Snake says she has a great butt and the game clearly highlights on it and then makes you focus on it. Don't think you can pull the "nothing inherently sexual" card in this case. Might as well call Sniper Wolf's cleavage not sexual because "News Flash: Women have breasts" (and ignore Shinkawa drawing her naked whilst we're at it.)

I agree it's a great gameplay element, though. But it just means they found a genius way to justify fanservice. Meryl having stereotypical daddy issues, sticking a PAL code up her cooch, wanting to impress the almighty Snake and failing basically every time at it -- besides not stepping on a landmine -- and the implied rape isn't really the great portrayal you make it out to be.

She has to have a great butt for it to be possible to implement at all, Snake is just stating the obvious. It's a fun bit of flirty, back and forth dialogue. Meryl's not begging for it at any stage. I already said Sniper Wolf is genuinely sexualized. Who cares if Shinkawa drew her naked? That has no bearing on the character or the game.

Seriously have some of you flirted with a woman before? The kind of dialogue in MGS1 is fucking child's play yet it still manages to get the appropriate tone of male/female interaction. Just as the Rose conversations in MGS2 evoke the kind of conversations you'd hear in a committed relationship (you can say they're annoying but the fact is that Rose is dumping everything on Raiden for a reason: she knows the danger and the likelihood of him finding out about her being a spy, hence why she wonders if he likes her for her rather than her false appearance).

There is no rape implication. She says "things worse than that", which could be just that she received psychological torture as well. Ocelot isn't a rapist, even if he was intended to be at one stage.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

Super Bunnyhop really says it the best; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO4Tusk_V2k



Kojima wrote himself into a corner. It was an attempt to bridge continuity between a game from 1987 and with one that explains how the most beloved character (MGS3) becomes a villain (MGS5).
The game failed in its execution. I think MGS4 or MGS5 was not particularly more insane or nonsical than MGS 1-3. I just think that we didn't bought the fiction in MGS5.

MGS5 has none of the charm, and thus we don't buy the bullshit. The characters don't work, there is little drama or character development, and it lacked the cohesive development the other games had.

MGS has always been bad shit insane and full of plot holes and scientific explanations that didn't made sense. MGS1,2 and 3 are all loaded with bosses with badly defined character abillities and motivations that make no fucking sense. Either mysterious psychic powers, or experimental nanomachines, or weird drawn out explanations on recessive/dominate genes, cloning, and more takes center stage.

But that's okay, because it had its charm and the characters were fun, and we bought the fiction. Snake was a cool dude on an important mission, and like a soap opera, once you're in, you're hooked.
But we didn't buy it in MGS5 and that is why I am so puzzled by all of it.


I cannot confidently engage in the Quiet discussion because at least her character had a tiny bit of action at the end. It didn't make much sense, but could I say the same for Code Talker? Paz? Ocelot? Kaz? They are all completely forgettable and unimportant and have little they learn or develop into.

MGS5 failed us from what we thought we were getting. I thought we were going to be shooting kids, making choices that turn a hero into a demon, as a hero becomes everything he sworn to fight against and losses the plot beneth him. Kojima was not brave enough to let snake become evil, and that was the problem.
Instead these mercenaries are treated as characters in Animal Crossing. THEY'RE MERCENARIES. Mercenaries doesn't discriminate, they kill anyone for money. Mercenaries are not supposed to be this loveable guys. Mercenaries rape, they kill, they torture. The game completely lacked the balls to portray them like real mercenary organizations.



MGS5 has the best stealth gameplay ("sandbox") I have ever seen in a video game. It's AI the smoothness of the animations the enemy interactions, the way you can impact the mission. It's absolutely incredible and a benchmark for all other games.
What is more, is that MGS manages to do this even though its open world is boring, hollow and empty. It really says something about how staggeringly good the core gameplay is.

And I can live with that. MGS5 plays so good that it doesn't belong in the same series as the other games. But the cost was a story that didn't pull us in.

Foxdie, nanomachines, AI simulation. I mean, look. What Kojima was going for. I understand it. And the language virus was not a bad idea. It just didn't work. On paper it probably worked. It properly ticked off all the design spec sheets that a MGS story has to have.
But then again, it didn't. MGS5 has one memorable boss fight. The skulls are nothing like the group-boss organizations of previous games.

IMO MGS4 is the ending. MGS5 is a filler. A tech demo that plays really well (like MGS Rising) but doesn't give anything meaningful to the lore. It's weird because disappointed in a video game that plays absolutely incredible, but disappoints you because its static non-playable sections are disappointing. All that shows, is just how attached many of us are to this franchise. After all these years.

I've come to terms with it, and I am not upset at it anymore. I don't think MGS5 ruined the other games retroactively. Not the same way the Matrix sequels made you dislike the first film more.

At worst MGS5 is just pointless. Venom was not the guy. He was just another soldier. The real Big Boss is somewhere else out there, following the Boss will. Okay. So at best MGS5 is like a "it was just a dream" story.

 

[Guess Who]

I don't know if the series' portrayal of women was ever good, but it certainly got worse.

More importantly, Kojima stopped being able to tell the difference. Either he legitimately thought Quiet was a good character and people would feel ashamed of their criticism (and he's insane) or he's kind of a slimy person.

p much

 

[GreyOcelot]

MGS1-3 have some incredible depictions of women in fiction in general. Rose is a very realistic girl, considering she was partially modeled after Kojima's own experiences with his wife. Meryl is strong and independent, but she's used as an example in the game's anti-war message. Olga, also strong and independent, but also a loving mother.

EVA is sexualized, but it's for a purpose. Not just because. Sex appeal is a major part of spy culture. It doesn't matter whether the spy is male or female. Fucking your way through is a time tested and proven method in espionage and it's doubtful we'd be here right now without it if a bunch of British blokes didn't shag their way through Europe.

Seriously, I think you're the one smoking something. You haven't given an example of actual sexualization. You've got upset that women's butts move. Did you know a man's butt will move when he walks too? Assuming you don't have two pancakes back there.

if you don't think that females in MGS1-3 are overly-sexualized, then this conversation is over. i'm not going to put any more time into it than that. all you're doing is pointing out the strengths in the female characters of those games. there are strong depictions of female characters in mgs4 and pw that could certainly match mgs 1-3. mgsv as a whole is sort of half-baked in the characterization of basically everyone, so that's clearly the outlier because it's a game that largely gameplay-centered, not story-centered. that's the line of demarcation the OP is so desperate to find. not some arbitrary line between MGS3 and the following games.

 

[JayEH]

MGS1-3 sure have gotten romanticized haha. I think they're definitely some of the strongest in the series but some people are acting like they're perfect games.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I'd also argue that MGS2 is all the proof you need of Fukushima not being some major driving force behind the the tone of the series. Before MGS4 was released, that game was constantly held up as proof of what happens when you let Kojima go off on his own. No one was bringing up Fukushima to criticize him for it, it was all on Kojima. The story is extremely complicated, which is one of the main things that fans who consider it the best entry like about it, and in general it's very wacky compared to other entries. Now all of a sudden it's being grouped with MGS1 and 3, two games that are quite a bit different than it in tone (both 1 and 3 are very simple from a story standpoint), as a way to show that now MGS4 and V are what happens when you let Kojima go off on his own.

 

[News Bot]

if you don't think that females in MGS1-3 are overly-sexualized, then this conversation is over. i'm not going to put any more time into it than that. all you're doing is pointing out the strengths in the female characters of those games. there are strong depictions of female characters in mgs4 and pw that could certainly match mgs 1-3. mgsv as a whole is sort of half-baked in the characterization of basically everyone, so that's clearly the outlier because it's a game that largely gameplay-centered, not story-centered. that's the line of demarcation the OP is so desperate to find. not some arbitrary line between MGS3 and the following games.

They're not overly-sexualized. Seriously, have you talked to a woman? Nothing is out of place with any of the women in MGS1 or MGS2. Or MGS3, historically. Again, with the exception of Sniper Wolf. But there's just nothing overly-sexual about any of the other females. Flirting is not over-sexualization. It's flirting.

I'm actually shocked at some of the nonsense being spouted here. Apparently women need to be completely submissive and demure or they're "overly-sexualized", god forbid they act like humans and nudgenudge winkwink with a male.

 

[Palculator]

She has to have a great butt for it to be possible to implement at all, Snake is just stating the obvious. It's a fun bit of flirty, back and forth dialogue. Meryl's not begging for it at any stage. I already said Sniper Wolf is genuinely sexualized. Who cares if Shinkawa drew her naked? That has no bearing on the character or the game.

Do you not see the circular logic in saying she has to have a great butt for it to work when the fact that her butt's appeal is being made into a gameplay mechanic and plot point is the thing we're considering sexualised? Also none of your other points add to anything. Being sexualised and being believable don't mutually exclude each other so saying they are one doesn't counter the other.

I'm actually shocked at some of the nonsense being spouted here. Apparently women need to be completely submissive and demure or they're "overly-sexualized", god forbid they act like humans and nudgenudge winkwink with a male.

You're being a massive twat. No point or interest in further trying to argue with you.

 

[Ratrat]

They're not overly-sexualized. Seriously, have you talked to a woman? Nothing is out of place with any of the women in MGS1 or MGS2. Or MGS3, historically. Again, with the exception of Sniper Wolf. But there's just nothing overly-sexual about any of the other females. Flirting is not over-sexualization. It's flirting.

I'm actually shocked at some of the nonsense being spouted here.

By this logic neither was Peace Walker. Paz was a 20 year old spy, afterall. Amanda and Strangelove were solid characters with only Cecil being completely useless but inoffensive. MGSV has like one female character in its tiny cast so it does not make a trend.

MGS4 is the only game where it was trully out of place imo.

 

[News Bot]

Do you not see the circular logic in saying she has to have a great butt for it to work when the fact that her butt's appeal is being made into a gameplay mechanic and plot point is the thing we're considering sexualised? Also none of your other points add to anything. Being sexualised and being believable don't mutually exclude each other so saying they are one doesn't counter the other.

The need for the gameplay mechanic likely came first. But since the only feature that sets apart Meryl from other soldiers is her eyes and it's impossible to discern eyes in the game, they had to rely on something unique to a female. But when someone is wearing full body fatigues... how do you do that?

There really is one one option. The ass. The dialogue surrounding it is light and humororus, not sexual. Snake isn't saying how he'd smash Meryl. He's saying she has a great ass, because he's a fucking dude with a dick and appreciates beauty. Are we to expect him to be a eunuch with no sexual interest (ie, finding someone attractive) whatsoever? That is good, believable characterization.

You're being a massive twat. No point or interest in further trying to argue with you.

Haha, alright buddy.

By this logic neither was Peace Walker. Paz was a 20 year old spy, afterall. Amanda and Strangelove were solid characters with only Cecil being completely useless but inoffensive. MGSV has like one female character in its tiny cast so it does not make a trend.

MGS4 is the only game where it was trully out of place imo.

Portable Ops and Peace Walker are fine in retrospect. Quiet looks the way she does solely for sex appeal at Kojima's own admittance. No real way around that.

 

[Hypron]

I'd also argue that MGS2 is all the proof you need of Fukushima not being some major driving force behind the the tone of the series. Before MGS4 was released, that game was constantly held up as proof of what happens when you let Kojima go off on his own. No one was bringing up Fukushima to criticize him for it, it was all on Kojima. The story is extremely complicated, which is one of the main things that fans who consider it the best entry like about it, and in general it's very wacky compared to other entries. Now all of a sudden it's being grouped with MGS1 and 3, two games that are quite a bit different than it in tone (both 1 and 3 are very simple from a story standpoint), as a way to show that now MGS4 and V are what happens when you let Kojima go off on his own.

You're exaggerating here. It gives you a bit to think about but it's not extremely complicated.

 

[Fate/Cipher]

I'd also argue that MGS2 is all the proof you need of Fukushima not being some major driving force behind the the tone of the series. Before MGS4 was released, that game was constantly held up as proof of what happens when you let Kojima go off on his own. No one was bringing up Fukushima to criticize him for it, it was all on Kojima. The story is extremely complicated, which is one of the main things that fans who consider it the best entry like about it, and in general it's very wacky compared to other entries. Now all of a sudden it's being grouped with MGS1 and 3, two games that are quite a bit different than it in tone (both 1 and 3 are very simple from a story standpoint), as a way to show that now MGS4 and V are what happens when you let Kojima go off on his own.

I really don't get what this suggests. He makes great games, "goes off on his own," and continues to make great games?

 

[GreyOcelot]

They're not overly-sexualized. Seriously, have you talked to a woman? Nothing is out of place with any of the women in MGS1 or MGS2. Or MGS3, historically. Again, with the exception of Sniper Wolf. But there's just nothing overly-sexual about any of the other females. Flirting is not over-sexualization. It's flirting.

I'm actually shocked at some of the nonsense being spouted here. Apparently women need to be completely submissive and demure or they're "overly-sexualized", god forbid they act like humans and nudgenudge winkwink with a male.

i'm married, but thanks for making it personal.

meryl running around in her underwear. constant sexual talk and innuendo clearly made to reference james bond, the epitome of the male sexual power fantasy. an easter egg that allows the player to see meryl in her underwear earlier in the game than usual. laying down playboy or playboy-like magazines to distract enemies. again, you can literally make solid snake jerk off to poster of a woman in mgs2. but oh, that's just a joke! it's not serious! kojima only got pervy later on!

 

[duckroll]

Unless someone has insight into how MGS stories are conceived in meetings and preproduction, the Fukushima thing seems really silly to me. He's one guy out of like five or six people who have helped Kojima write MGS games over the years. Instead why not look atthe overall cultural changes in KojiPro over the years? After MGS3 they started hiring more and more foreigners to diversify the team. Ryan Payton eventually became a producer himself. Several level designers were non-Japanese. Kojima even opened an LA studio for MGSV. Aren't these developments far more likely to have impact on how they make games rather than the departure of one writer?

 

[SolidSnakex]

You're exaggerating here. It gives you a bit to think about but it's not extremely complicated.

Compared to MGS and MGS3 it's very complicated. Fans of MGS2 have criticized MGS3 in particular because they felt that it went back to a much more straightforward way of storytelling. There really isn't much to discuss with those as everything is laid out in front of you clearly.

I really don't get what this suggests. He makes great games, "goes off on his own," and continues to make great games?

The implication behind this whole thread is that Fukushima reigned Kojima's craziness in with MGS1-3, and once he left there was no one to do that. But no entry of MGS is as batshit crazy as MGS2.

 

[Hypron]

i'm married, but thanks for making it personal.

meryl running around in her underwear. constant sexual talk and innuendo clearly made to reference james bond, the epitome of the male sexual power fantasy. an easter egg that allows the player to see meryl in her underwear earlier in the game than usual. laying down playboy or playboy-like magazines to distract enemies. again, you can literally make solid snake jerk off to poster of a woman in mgs2. but oh, that's just a joke! it's not serious! kojima only go pervy later on!

Don't forget those VR missions either.

 

[News Bot]

i'm married, but thanks for making it personal.

meryl running around in her underwear. constant sexual talk and innuendo clearly made to reference james bond, the epitome of the male sexual power fantasy. an easter egg that allows the player to see meryl in her underwear earlier in the game than usual. laying down playboy or playboy-like magazines to distract enemies. again, you can literally make solid snake jerk off to poster of a woman in mgs2. but oh, that's just a joke! it's not serious! kojima only got pervy later on!

If you're married then you should know how male and females tend to interact. Sometimes it involves flirting, innuendo and indeed, sexual undertones. How is this offensive to you?

Meryl doesn't "run around" in her underwear. That happens briefly because she literally doesn't have time to get dressed, and it's entirely up to the player if it happens at all. It's something completely logical that's warped into a joke. An easter egg is an easter egg.

Sexual talk and innuendo should be in much more games, because that's how real people tend to talk. But there isn't a lot of it in MGS1, and what little there is, is less than what you'd hear while actually flirting with someone yourself. They're just off-hand comments that make the characters feel more human. There's no power fantasy involved, but yes James Bond is terrible for it.

Are you seriously using the hilarious magazines as an example of over-sexualization? That is hilarious. Snake jerking off is over-sexualization? It's a fucking joke.

I am flabbergasted at some of this nonsense.

Don't forget those VR missions either.

Nothing sexual about this at all. They wanted to show off the PS1's capabilities, and Naomi and Mei Ling are good designs. Nobody's going to go the extra mile to be able to get closer to Campbell's model.

 

[Hypron]

Compared to MGS and MGS3 it's very complicated. Fans of MGS2 have criticized MGS3 in particular because they felt that it went back to a much more straightforward way of storytelling. There really isn't much to discuss with those as everything is laid out in front of you clearly.

It's true that it's more complicated but I wouldn't go as far as saying it's extremely so. It's not Finnegans Wake haha

 

[GreyOcelot]

Don't forget those VR missions either.

thank you. and if i'm not mistaken. the infamous photo mode with the MGS4 bosses was just a copy of a similar mode with mei ling, naomi and co. in mgs vr missions. mgs has always been pervy

 

[Hypron]

Nothing sexual about this at all. They wanted to show off the PS1's capabilities, and Naomi and Mei Ling are good designs. Nobody's going to go the extra mile to be able to get closer to Campbell's model.

Huh what? That's MGS2.

 

[Palculator]

Don't forget those VR missions either.

Oh man, I legit forgot. Photo Mode started in the MGS1 VR missions, even.

I've pointed it out in another thread, but I get the feeling the fanservice in MGS got heavier as soon as Kojima actually hired models he liked. The most extreme examples are the Beauty and the Beast and Quiet, all based on real life models some of which we know Kojima likes personally. Yumi Kikuchi even appeared as a pin-up in MGS3 and was then cast as Raging Raven in MGS4, so we know Kojima had an interest in her beforehand. Not bringing this up as an excuse, just again reiterating the increase in sexualisation is down to more than just Fukushima leaving and Kojima being "unleashed" or whatever.

 

[JayEH]

Nothing sexual about this at all. They wanted to show off the PS1's capabilities, and Naomi and Mei Ling are good designs. Nobody's going to go the extra mile to be able to get closer to Campbell's model.

You didn't even watch the video.

Unless someone has insight into how MGS stories are conceived in meetings and preproduction, the Fukushima thing seems really silly to me. He's one guy out of like five or six people who have helped Kojima write MGS games over the years. Instead why not look atthe overall cultural changes in KojiPro over the years? After MGS3 they started hiring more and more foreigners to diversify the team. Ryan Payton eventually became a producer himself. Several level designers were non-Japanese. Kojima even opened an LA studio for MGSV. Aren't these developments far more likely to have impact on how they make games rather than the departure of one writer?

Yeah MGSV alone has 4 others writers I believe who wrote the filler missions, in game dialogue, radio calls, and most importantly the tapes.

 

[News Bot]

Huh what? That's MGS2.

Ahhh I thought you were referring to the Naomi/Mei Ling bits in the actual titled VR Missions game.

I don't see the problem with the MGS2 missions. Why is it some sort of affront to see female models? They're nothing you wouldn't find in a clothing catalogue. The entire thing is light-hearted in nature. I mean for fuck's sake, you've got naked Raiden on the ground, Fatman riding around aimlessly and soldiers and Raiden lying all over the place having been grabbed in the dick by President Johnson.

It's humor. I can't believe I even need to explain this.

"You've all gone mad!"

 

[Rymuth]

To expand on what I've written earlier, I've recently finished watching Mathewmatosis series of videos about the Metal Gear franchise. He notes how the prose got increasingly conceit and more and more ridiculous with each entry.

Compare Naomi's speech at the end of MGS...it was different to the recent of the game but it fits because it was her farewell. In MGS 4 she speaks like that all the time...or how EVA talks in MGS 3 and how she exposits in MGS 4 (pretty much everyone speaks like an idiot in MGS4)

"I took the Apple from the Snake and was cast out of Eden..."

Fukushima needed to stick around because, when unchallenged, Kojima just butchers dialogue.

 

[News Bot]

To expand on what I've written earlier, I've recently finished watching Mathewmatosis series of videos about the Metal Gear franchise. He notes how the prose got increasingly conceit and more and more ridiculous with each entry.

Compare Naomi's speech at the end of MGS...it was different to the recent of the game but it fits because it was her farewell. In MGS 4 she speaks like that all the time...or how EVA talks in MGS 3 and how she exposits in MGS 4 (pretty much everyone speaks like an idiot in MGS4)

"I took the Apple from the Snake and was cast out of Eden..."

Fukushima needed to stick around because, when unchallenged, Kojima just butchers dialogue.

"If you won't be a prisoner to fate, go, fulfill your destiny."

That one still fuckin' tickles me. I realize they have distinct connotations despite being commonly used interchangeably, but it's such a horrid line.

"I am lightning. The rain transformed." is one of the most offensive ones. "It even rained the day I was born" HOW THE FUCK DO YOU KNOW RAIDEN.

 

[Guess Who]

"I took the Apple from the Snake and was cast out of Eden..."

I love this bit in MGS4 because having a character named Snake talk to Eva in a church while she holds an apple is the single most hamfisted Biblical allusion I have ever seen in any story in any medium. It's so god-awful it's incredible.

 

[GreyOcelot]

If you're married then you should know how male and females tend to interact. Sometimes it involves flirting, innuendo and indeed, sexual undertones. How is this offensive to you?

Meryl doesn't "run around" in her underwear. That happens briefly because she literally doesn't have time to get dressed, and it's entirely up to the player if it happens at all. It's something completely logical that's warped into a joke. An easter egg is an easter egg.

Sexual talk and innuendo should be in much more games, because that's how real people tend to talk. But there isn't a lot of it in MGS1, and what little there is, is less than what you'd hear while actually flirting with someone yourself. They're just off-hand comments that make the characters feel more human. There's no power fantasy involved, but yes James Bond is terrible for it.

Are you seriously using the hilarious magazines as an example of over-sexualization? That is hilarious. Snake jerking off is over-sexualization? It's a fucking joke.

I am flabbergasted at some of this nonsense.



Nothing sexual about this at all. They wanted to show off the PS1's capabilities, and Naomi and Mei Ling are good designs. Nobody's going to go the extra mile to be able to get closer to Campbell's model.

i never said i was offended, in fact i have no problem with any of the depictions of women in mgs games i'm a huge james bond fand, in fact.. i'm merely pointing out that they have been fairly consistent throughout the series. overly sexual females. sexual humor, etc. it's been a staple from day one.

stop moving the goals posts. this is the point of this conversation: there is no discernible difference between the sexualization and portrayal of women between MGS1-3 and 3/PW/V. you could argue that quiet and MGSV are worse and more egregious that anything before that, fine. but that's not the topic here

 

[JayEH]

To expand on what I've written earlier, I've recently finished watching Mathewmatosis series of videos about the Metal Gear franchise. He notes how the prose got increasingly conceit and more and more ridiculous with each entry.

Compare Naomi's speech at the end of MGS...it was different to the recent of the game but it fits because it was her farewell. In MGS 4 she speaks like that all the time...or how EVA talks in MGS 3 and how she exposits in MGS 4 (pretty much everyone speaks like an idiot in MGS4)

"I took the Apple from the Snake and was cast out of Eden..."

Fukushima needed to stick around because, when unchallenged, Kojima just butchers dialogue.

Idk I feel 4 is the odd one out when it comes to things like that. A lot of stuff the weird dialogue choices in that game that present in PW or V. And again like duckroll said, it's silly to be pinning this all down on Fukushima when we will never know the influence he had on the writing.

 

[News Bot]

stop moving the goals posts. this is the point of this conversation: there is no discernible difference between the sexualization and potrayal of women bettwen MGS1-3 and 3/PW/V. you could argue that quiet and MGSV are worse and more egregious that anything before that, fine. but that's not the topic here

I don't even disagree with this. There's just nothing "overly sexual" about most of the females in the series. It's lunacy to argue otherwise. Poking fun, light flirtations and jokes are not what I'd call being overly sexual.

EVA is "overly sexual" but for narrative reasons rather than for boners. Sniper Wolf is overly sexual. Quiet is just ridiculous.

I love this bit in MGS4 because having a character named Snake talk to Eva in a church while she holds an apple is the single most hamfisted Biblical allusion I have ever seen in any story in any medium. It's so god-awful it's incredible.

"You too, immortal?"
"No, I just don't fear death."

This makes no sense either. Not fearing death doesn't make you immortal. In fact quite the opposite. Raiden just dodges the question like an emo chump trying to sound dramatic, which he does for the whole damn game.

Thank god they completely changed him in Revengeance, even if that too had some cringe lines. He's an utter embarrassment every time he's on screen in MGS4. As with most of the characters.

 

[Ratrat]

Unless someone has insight into how MGS stories are conceived in meetings and preproduction, the Fukushima thing seems really silly to me. He's one guy out of like five or six people who have helped Kojima write MGS games over the years. Instead why not look atthe overall cultural changes in KojiPro over the years? After MGS3 they started hiring more and more foreigners to diversify the team. Ryan Payton eventually became a producer himself. Several level designers were non-Japanese. Kojima even opened an LA studio for MGSV. Aren't these developments far more likely to have impact on how they make games rather than the departure of one writer?

I haven't seen a convincing argument regarding this either. I can only assume people just desperately want to believe the Fukushima thing, for whatever reason.

Portable Ops and Peace Walker are fine in retrospect. Quiet looks the way she does solely for sex appeal at Kojima's own admittance. No real way around that.

Sure, but you cant defend previous entries and pretend they are any different. Sniper Wolf etc. Hell, you could say Quiet was also a double agent and her romance/seduction with Venom is important to the plot, much like Eva. With two nearly mute characters, it just didn't work and was awkward as hell.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I love this bit in MGS4 because having a character named Snake talk to Eva in a church while she holds an apple is the single most hamfisted Biblical allusion I have ever seen in any story in any medium. It's so god-awful it's incredible.

What about when she sees Ocelot and calls him Adam (his Snake Eater codename) and, dying, the apple falls from her hands.

What about that.

 

[RedSwirl]

I think Kojima just ran out of gas after MGS3 and Portable Ops. I'm not saying the earlier MGS games were masterpieces of storytelling, but I also noticed a kind of shift occurring at the point the OP describes.

MGS4 to me always seemed like a rushed attempt to wrap up all the canon the series had built up to that point, specifically answering all MGS2's questions. The revelation that The Patriots were really just MGS3's mission control team felt like a gigantic ass-pull. I think that somewhere around there, Kojima just wanted to move on, but Konami wouldn't let him. I think that's why we got so much more MGS after that. And I also agree that there was somewhat of a tonal shift after MGS3 and portable ops in terms of how the characters and scenes were presented. However, I also personally see lots of tonal shifts in anime and Japanese games coinciding around the same time (circa 2008), so it could just be me. Characters and action all to me seemed to get less "grounded" and more flamboyant. In my opinion you can see the same thing happen to Resident Evil starting with RE5, which I think suffered a lot of the same problems as MGS4. It tried to wrap up all the canon and lore built up since RE1 and did a pretty slapdash job of it. Since then, RE6 and the Revelations games have gotten more... well... anime in their presentation if you ask me. RE4 was wacky as shit, but it was wacky in that 80's action flick, Arnold Schwarzenegger in "Commando" type of way. MGS3 itself was more reminiscent of, well, Rambo First Blood Part 2.

Anyway, the most ironic part of this is that tonal shift was accompanied by gameplay that began to improve if you ask me. Snake Eater was the last game completely stuck to the series' ancient control scheme (that was originally designed around 2D games) before Kojima added the 3D camera for Subsistence and Portable Ops. And after that of course they added more westernized third person controls, culminating in MGSV which did the Ubisoft formula better than Ubisoft ever could.

Kojima needed someone like Fukushima to keep his (great) plot ideas etc on the straight and narrow. An editor.

Though I think a lot of it is down to franchise fatigue. It's obvious that Kojima wanted (needed?) to work on something.

So Fukushima was the Gary Kurtz to Kojima's George Lucas? Would that make MGS4 Kojima's Return of the Jedi?

 

[Guess Who]

What about when she sees Ocelot and calls him Adam (his Snake Eater codename) and, dying, the apple falls from her hands.

What about that.

It's really the cherry on top of the sundae.

 

[bluethree]

I think Kojima just ran out of gas after MGS3 and Portable Ops. I'm not saying the earlier MGS games were masterpieces of storytelling, but I also noticed a kind of shift occurring at the point the OP describes.

MGS4 to me always seemed like a rushed attempt to wrap up all the canon the series had built up to that point, specifically answering all MGS2's questions. The revelation that The Patriots were really just MGS3's mission control team felt like a gigantic ass-pull.

This is seriously my least favorite plot twist of the entire series. It's especially REALLY dumb when you consider that 3's radio crew weren't as involved in the main plot as in 1 or 2. They really were just support characters for the most part.

 

[786110]

I absolutely think Fukushima was a lot of the series' heart and soul and much of its charm was lost without him.

Charm now relegated to audiotapes.

 

[Ratrat]

I absolutely think Fukushima was a lot of the series' heart and soul and much of its charm was lost without him.

Kojima can be a genius, but he's a genius that sometimes needed to be told no, or be told there's a better way. He thinks little details can fundamentally not become bloat, so the more there are, the better the game is. And he believed in titillation for its own sake, even when it no longer made sense (NAOMI HID THE CARD IN A BRA SHE DID NOT EVEN HAVE ON).

I agree with the OP's assertion that Kojima got bored of Metal Gear, honestly likely after MGS2, but incredibly bored after MGS3. After that, it was a series of small rebellions with no one to give him perspective, and I don't really think MGS has been the same since.

How do you figure the codec writer was in a position to dictate Kojima's actions? How is it that MGS2 is arguably the most unhinged, creative and at the time, divisive of the series if Kojima had people there to 'restrain' him? How is it then that MGS3 is considerably more pervy than Peace Walker and basically in line with V?

edit: On that note, why dont these threads ever talk about the new (2?) writers? Apparently, Kojima's co-writers are responisble for making or breaking these games so it would be interesting to know what their hand was in helping to destroy 4, PW & V.

 

[duckroll]

Do the people who push this Fukushima thing really have any knowledge as to what Fukushima's actual role in the games was in a practical sense? Are there interviews and behind the scenes stuff detailing his personal insight on his work and process? It would be great to see all that if it exists.

If not, what is it based on? A desire to want to believe that there is a logical and simple explanation for declining quality in a creative work? It seems that every time a famous creator releases stuff which decline in quality fans want to reach for some simple universal explanation. Was his earlier work only good because of collaboration with someone else? Maybe that person is the real reason it was good! Was his earlier stuff ghostwritten? Etc. It seems to be hard to accept that people who make good things can also disappoint sometimes. Creative works are a challenge, and keeping up quality over decades is incredibly hard. Some people manage it by doing less. Some people manage it by just being that fucking good (or lucky). Most people struggle. Some just decide to quit while they're ahead. There is no perfect equation where you can go "this was good because A + B - C is the right formula and because the formula changed that explains everything". It can be hard to accept, but that's reality.

 

[Guess Who]

Do the people who push this Fukushima thing really have any knowledge as to what Fukushima's actual role in the games was in a practical sense? Are there interviews and behind the scenes stuff detailing his personal insight on his work and process? It would be great to see all that if it exists.

If not, what is it based on? A desire to want to believe that there is a logical and simple explanation for declining quality in a creative work? It seems that every time a famous creator releases stuff which decline in quality fans want to reach for some simple universal explanation. Was his earlier work only good because of collaboration with someone else? Maybe that person is the real reason it was good! Was his earlier stuff ghostwritten? Etc. It seems to be hard to accept that people who make good things can also disappoint sometimes. Creative works are a challenge, and keeping up quality over decades is incredibly hard. Some people manage it by doing less. Some people manage it by just being that fucking good (or lucky). Most people struggle. Some just decide to quit while they're ahead. There is no perfect equation where you can go "this was good because A + B - C is the right formula and because the formula changed that explains everything". It can be hard to accept, but that's reality.

Fukushima is the Matt Sharp of Metal Gear.

That is a reference that's going to fly over the heads of like 99% of people here but I'm going to make it anyway.

 

[Zebetite]

Fukushima is the Matt Sharp of Metal Gear.

That is a reference that's going to fly over the heads of like 99% of people here but I'm going to make it anyway.

so when are we getting the rentals of metal gear? :'(

 

[Exodust]

Do the people who push this Fukushima thing really have any knowledge as to what Fukushima's actual role in the games was in a practical sense? Are there interviews and behind the scenes stuff detailing his personal insight on his work and process? It would be great to see all that if it exists.

If not, what is it based on? A desire to want to believe that there is a logical and simple explanation for declining quality in a creative work? It seems that every time a famous creator releases stuff which decline in quality fans want to reach for some simple universal explanation. Was his earlier work only good because of collaboration with someone else? Maybe that person is the real reason it was good! Was his earlier stuff ghostwritten? Etc. It seems to be hard to accept that people who make good things can also disappoint sometimes. Creative works are a challenge, and keeping up quality over decades is incredibly hard. Some people manage it by doing less. Some people manage it by just being that fucking good (or lucky). Most people struggle. Some just decide to quit while they're ahead. There is no perfect equation where you can go "this was good because A + B - C is the right formula and because the formula changed that explains everything". It can be hard to accept, but that's reality.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

It's always strange to me how people will forget that years of increasing budgets, pressure, dissatisfaction coupled with the grand logic that if you hit one home run, two, or even three in a row doesn't mean you'll hit home runs all the time would be a sound enough explanation for declining quality if you see it as much.

I never understood the whole "well it was really all that one guy we looked up in the credits!". A bit too easy with no real point to it. Yeah, you can point out the differences between two things all day, but can you really attribute them to one guy being present? Nah.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

It's always strange to me how people will forget that years of increasing budgets, pressure, dissatisfaction coupled with the grand logic that if you hit one home run, two, or even three in a row doesn't mean you'll hit home runs all the time would be a sound enough explanation for declining quality if you see it as much.

I never understood the whole "well it was really all that one guy we looked up in the credits!". A bit too easy with no real point to it. Yeah, you can point out the differences between two things all day, but can you really attribute them to one guy being present? Nah.

Not to mention that Kojima wanted to quit the MGS series after MGS3, and was pretty much forced back onto MGS4(IIRC). Then he just seemed to focus primarily in gameplay mechanics after that compared to story.

 

[Screaming Meat]

This shit again. Well, I...

...you know what? Nah...

 

[786110]

Do the people who push this Fukushima thing really have any knowledge as to what Fukushima's actual role in the games was in a practical sense? Are there interviews and behind the scenes stuff detailing his personal insight on his work and process? It would be great to see all that if it exists.

I dunno, he does fit as a sort of a real life analogue to Major Zero being the mastermind of The Patriots

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I dunno, he does fit as a sort of a real life analogue to Major Zero being the mastermind of The Patriots

MGS has been secretly a love story from Kojima to Fukushima.

Kojima is Big Boss
Fukushima is Major Zero

...this also means that Kojima hopes to one day take Fukushima off life support, but one step at a time.

 

[Ratrat]

Do the people who push this Fukushima thing really have any knowledge as to what Fukushima's actual role in the games was in a practical sense? Are there interviews and behind the scenes stuff detailing his personal insight on his work and process? It would be great to see all that if it exists.

Still waiting for anything of note to be posted. Where's the op?
Its just a list of complaints that are somehow linked or attributed to the lack of Fukushima without anything to back it up.

 

[KOMANI]

Add Shinta Nojiri to the list.

 

[Ratrat]

Add Shinta Nojiri to the list.

What was his role in 2 & 4? I'm assuming you know.
edit: Oh, he was one of ten 'script writers'.

 

[KOMANI]

What was his role in 2 & 4? I'm assuming you know.

Lead Level designer of the tanker mission. Responsible for the really cool stuff, like ocelot hiding behind Ray before the cutscene etc.
He came in late to design Act 3 of Mgs4, and despite what people may think of the actual Act, the design of that whole stage is stellar.

 

[Ratrat]

Lead Level designer of the tanker mission. Responsible for the really cool stuff, like ocelot hiding behind Ray before the cutscene etc.
He came in late to design Act 3 of Mgs4, and despite what people may think of the actual Act, the design of that whole stage is stellar.

Okay, is this from Document of MGS2? Link? Either way, that sounds pretty minimal. He only worked on two games and they were both pretty divisive. I did like Act 3 though.