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[mohsinkhan]

Gonna love the E3 presentation when they try to justify always online XD

Or during E3 when their Internet connection doesn't work

 

[ascii42]

Do people say I'm not using my iPhone and pay $100 a month for service anymore because it drops calls so frequently? I'm going to go back to using pay phones because it's more reliable and cheaper. No at worst they switch to Verizon or AT&T.

This doesn't really fit in with the rest of your argument.

Somebody being unsatisfied with the reliability of their provider and switching to a different one is analogous to somebody being unsatisfied with the reliability of the 720 and switching to the PS4.

The rest of your argument is like somebody quitting video games altogether because of the 720's required internet connectivity being problematic.

 

[Silly.Mikey]

No, but I've had trouble with my internet in the past. Not too worried about that, as usually I just need to bounce the router, which doesn't take long. It would still be annoying, but not a dealbreaker.

No, what really bothers me is that XBOX Live was out for an entire week after I bought a 360. It's entirely possible that all the new connections on launch day and Christmas could bring XBOX Live down. If internet connectivity is required, every single system will be rendered useless in that situation.

They just have to be prepared. Hell Steam does already a lot of what said in my post. Big games come out all the time on Steam and it rarely ever goes down. I know people who have steam on 24/7 and it does exactly what im saying the next xbox will do. Just automatic everything, available anytime, from any device. Only im sure MS will try to take it one step further and you know what, ive got no problems with that, if thats what it turns out to be.

 

[GoofsterStud]

This Internet going down thing is a nonsense argument. This is not going to scare people away. How many people won't subscribe to cable or satellite because there are occasionally service interruptions?

Do these people say I'm cancelling Comcast/DirecTV and going back to rabbit ears antenna and watching TV shows on DVD?

Gamer plays Grant Theft Auto offline.

Xbox servers go down! (hackers FTW!)
PS4 users are playing offline!

Kids playing Rayman.
Something happens and Jess can't play due to internet (not sure what the problem) tech support must be $$$.

Jill is playing with no internet connection on her PS4. All the other kids want a PS4 now. Soon parents realize that the advantages of the PS4. This things is going to spiral.

If you gave people a Netflix alternative where you can watch previously watched movines offline, you can bet they'd choose it every time.

Comparing a situation where there is no alternative, is null and void.

They just have to be prepared. Hell Steam does already a lot of what said in my post. Big games come out all the time on Steam and it rarely ever goes down. I know people who have steam on 24/7 and it does exactly what im saying the next xbox will do. Just automatic everything, available anytime, from any device. Only im sure MS will try to take it one step further and you know what, ive got no problems with that, if thats what it turns out to be.

Steam server was down and I was playing games offline! I was at the condo during a blizzard with no internet connection playing Kingdom of Amalur on Origins.

PS4 I can play single player games during any fluke/maintence, Xbox Next I can not.

One now can do something the other can't.

 

[RetroStu]

Are you saying that MS are deliberately making themselves look bad just so an MS exec can say at durango's reveal "online is optional, so we are not the wankers you thought we were?"

Not bloody likely!!!

lol i was joking although i did read a book once about stuff like this and apparently it does go on, they say that people only remember the 'current' stuff so they can get away with the bad stuff.

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

I'm still in denial. I can't see MS sticking with this decision

 

[Samurai_Heart]

Or can you imagine all the goodwill and good publicity they would get if all these annoying rumours turned out to be false!, conspiracy theory?.

Let's just hope that's the case, but with the amount this rumour keeps popping up =S

They wont say it outright. They will do a bleak reference to it and even then lavish it with window dressing. Leaving all of us wondering if they just announced an always online console.

So in short the spin doctors will lead us on a merry dance

This seems more than likely, I hope the spin doesn't make most of GAF salivate at the Durango and forget about the always online aspect =/

 

[RetroStu]

Or during E3 when their Internet connection doesn't work

Ha can you imgine if the internet went down at Microsofts conference and they couldn't show us any games, it would be poetic!.

 

[Jake Tower]

When my Internet connection goes down essentially everything I rely on for entertainment or information is down. My PC is a useless paper weight as is my Xbox. It's no different than losing electricity. I'm already living in this reality. I would never turn on my PC or Xbox if the Internet wasn't present. I've been living in that reality for most of the last generation.

HAHA okay dude.

 

[KaYotiX]

I don't trust any of these rumors.

 

[coldfoot]

Service interruptions are a part of modern life. We deal with it, complain about it, and come back because we are addicted. When my Internet connection goes down essentially everything I rely on for entertainment or information is down. My PC is a useless paper weight as is my Xbox. It's no different than losing electricity. I'm already living in this reality. I would never turn on my PC or Xbox if the Internet wasn't present. I've been living in that reality for most of the last generation.

Bullshit. When my internet was down for a week after Hurricane Sandy, I still could get internet through my cell phone tethered to my PC, but I sure as hell was not going to start watching Netflix. That's why I was glad to have my Blu-ray's, Games, and movies on my hard drive. The EXTREME bandwidth caps with wireless internet (3G/4G/LTE) make sure that you can't do anything with it. That's why requiring it to even start a game is nuts, and you can bet your ass that it will fail spectacularly in every country outside of the land of pickup trucks.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

As someone with 3 360's (yes, they all work) and a 10:1 ratio of 360 games to PS3 games, I won't be buying a 720 if it requires an always-on connection. Internet go out? Fuck you, no gaming.

Nope.

But for the record I think this is all bullshit.

They wont say it outright. They will do a bleak reference to it and even then lavish it with window dressing. Leaving all of us wondering if they just announced an always online console.

So in short the spin doctors will lead us on a merry dance

This is spot on. They will couch it in terms of "social connectivity" and "community experiences". They certainly won't admit to this at their reveal.

 

[rpmurphy]

This Internet going down thing is a nonsense argument. This is not going to scare people away. How many people won't subscribe to cable or satellite because there are occasionally service interruptions? Do these people say I'm cancelling Comcast/DirecTV and going back to rabbit ears antenna and watching TV shows on DVD?

No the bottom line is that the content that people want access to are exclusive to the connected experience so they deal with limited service interruptions. If the service interruptions are so frequent or severe then they will change providers.

Do people say I'm not using my iPhone and pay $100 a month for service anymore because it drops calls so frequently? I'm going to go back to using pay phones because it's more reliable and cheaper. No at worst they switch to Verizon or AT&T.

Service interruptions are a part of modern life. We deal with it, complain about it, and come back because we are addicted. When my Internet connection goes down essentially everything I rely on for entertainment or information is down. My PC is a useless paper weight as is my Xbox. It's no different than losing electricity. I'm already living in this reality. I would never turn on my PC or Xbox if the Internet wasn't present. I've been living in that reality for most of the last generation.

And BTW the concept of "stickiness" is not just a buzz word. It has real meaning to publishers. You guys are all really high on Bioshock right now, but in a few months nobody here is going to be still talking about that game or playing it. The game has nothing in it to keep it in heavy rotation for a long time. It is a shortlived experience, in otherwords it's not sticky. You play it for a week and then trade it in at Gamestop. It may be a great single player game, but it's not going to end up being a long lasting money generating hit like many social games are.

That's all fair and good if your only use cases are those that require online functionality. For console games, that's hardly the scenario.

 

[Uno Venova]

This Internet going down thing is a nonsense argument. This is not going to scare people away. How many people won't subscribe to cable or satellite because there are occasionally service interruptions? Do these people say I'm cancelling Comcast/DirecTV and going back to rabbit ears antenna and watching TV shows on DVD?

No the bottom line is that the content that people want access to are exclusive to the connected experience so they deal with limited service interruptions. If the service interruptions are so frequent or severe then they will change providers.

Do people say I'm not using my iPhone and pay $100 a month for service anymore because it drops calls so frequently? I'm going to go back to using pay phones because it's more reliable and cheaper. No at worst they switch to Verizon or AT&T.

Service interruptions are a part of modern life. We deal with it, complain about it, and come back because we are addicted. When my Internet connection goes down essentially everything I rely on for entertainment or information is down. My PC is a useless paper weight as is my Xbox. It's no different than losing electricity. I'm already living in this reality. I would never turn on my PC or Xbox if the Internet wasn't present. I've been living in that reality for most of the last generation.

And BTW the concept of "stickiness" is not just a buzz word. It has real meaning to publishers. You guys are all really high on Bioshock right now, but in a few months nobody here is going to be still talking about that game or playing it. The game has nothing in it to keep it in heavy rotation for a long time. It is a shortlived experience, in otherwords it's not sticky. You play it for a week and then trade it in at Gamestop. It may be a great single player game, but it's not going to end up being a long lasting money generating hit like many social games are.

So you are conceding you have no answer to this Q?

What does it benefit a consumer to deny them consumption of a product without online, instead of allowing additional content with?

 

[GoofsterStud]

Don't forget more service providers are going to bandwidth limits. Their is also the rumors that Comcast is going lower the current tier bandwidth limits as well. Usually Comcast is the first to take the initial anti consumer stance.

 

[onken]

I'm still in denial. I can't see MS sticking with this decision

Same. I just moved out of a shared house and the internet there was terrible; blocked ports, torrentors bringing it to a crawl, random disconnects. I could never have had this kind of console there and I'm sure I won't be the only one.

 

[abstract alien]

Global internet use btw.

Sweet.

 

[Slygmous]

When my ISP had issues a few weeks back, do you know what I did with no internet?

I played video games.


(heh, got a 408 error from Gaf trying to post this)

 

[Iacobellis]

Sounds like source is confusing locked down dev hardware with retail hardware.

Or, MS is tired of leaks and putting out a bit of misinformation.

Easy enough to announce and then make fun of press for publishing "unfounded, unconfirmed" rumors.

Remember, of the existing consoles, the 360 probably has the most user friendly DRM requirement with its dual licenses and no need to "deactivate" a given 360 before transferring the console license.

The behavior that Kotaku is describing is currently present in Xbox 360 GoD titles that are NOT licensed to the current console. The only difference is that it is a 10 minute lockout, rather than a 3 minute one. The way to prevent the lockout is to do a license transfer, so that the current console has an active console license for the game.



Microsoft was talking about Durango at GDC. It just wasn't talking about it publically.

But WHY?

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

No outright denial by MS is just digging them into their own hole and making these rumours seem more likely. All it would take is to say "we have no plans for an always-online or online-authenticated network structure" to blow these rumours out, and they won't need to spoil whatever (poorly kept) secrets the 720 has.

720 isn't even announced, and neither it nor the PS4 have been released, and Sony is already winning next gen.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Ok, so in summary of your argument; I gots mine, fuck yous if you dont got yours?

This Internet going down thing is a nonsense argument.

TO YOU

This is not going to scare people away. How many people won't subscribe to cable or satellite because there are occasionally service interruptions?

A console is not a subscription service.
You buy a console, and you buy the games that you play on it.

Yes, a console requires electricity to run, but beyond that it is not unfit for purpose by any other external factor.

Except now somehow it should be if the internet goes down?

No the bottom line is that the content that people want access to are exclusive to the connected experience so they deal with limited service interruptions. If the service interruptions are so frequent or severe then they will change providers.

Again; if I have just bought a game for $60 and want to play it, but my internet has gone down; it is reasonable that I should not be permitted to?

Service interruptions are a part of modern life.

Which is why there is no need to force a services restriction onto a product that does not require that service.

If you have purchased the hardware medium to play an entertainment media - like a Kindle for ebooks or an iPod for music - and you have purchased the media to play in that medium, why the fuck should there be additional service restrictions put upon that as well?

If the next Xbox is free and all of its games are free on a downloadable rental subscription plan - like PSN+ - nobody would have a problem with this.

Because then it would be a service, and service interuptions are understandable.

But heres the thing; buying games is not a service. It is a purchase.

We deal with it, complain about it, and come back because we are addicted. When my Internet connection goes down essentially everything I rely on for entertainment or information is down. My PC is a useless paper weight as is my Xbox. It's no different than losing electricity. I'm already living in this reality. I would never turn on my PC or Xbox if the Internet wasn't present. I've been living in that reality for most of the last generation.

Your reality is not mine.
If my internet goes down - it happens - I can still play the entirety of my Steam account, the entirety of my 360 library, the entirety of my PS3 library, as well as the entirety of every other gaming platforms collection I have ever amassed.

I paid good money for all of those titles; why the fuck would an unrelated service not being present prevent that access? Ever?

That's like saying if my Internet goes down I shouldn't be allowed to drive my car.

 

[Chinpoko_Master]

I wonder what kind of "features" they're going to try to push to justify this.

 

[Silly.Mikey]

Gamer plays Grant Theft Auto offline.

Xbox servers go down! (hackers FTW!)
PS4 users are playing offline!

Kids playing Rayman.
Something happens and Jess can't play due to internet (not sure what the problem) tech support must be $$$.

Jill is playing with no internet connection on her PS4. All the other kids want a PS4 now. Soon parents realize that the advantages of the PS4. This things is going to spiral.

If you gave people a Netflix alternative where you can watch previously watched movines offline, you can bet they'd choose it every time.

Comparing a situation where there is no alternative, is null and void.



Steam server was down and I was playing games offline! I was the condo during a blizzard with no internet connection playing Kingdom of Amalur on Origins.

PS4 I can play single player games during any fluke/maintence, Xbox Next I can not.

One now can do something the other can't.

Steam is software running on a computer. Its not exactly the same. Always online for xbox to me only means idle and online. And yes theres will be an offline mode for god sakes. Im sure of it. And itll be used just as often as Steams is. Practically never unless absolutely necessary.

 

[RetroStu]

Don't forget more service providers are going to bandwidth limits. Their is also the rumors that Comcast is going lower the current tier bandwidth limits as well. Usually Comcast is the first to take the initial anti consumer stance.

There have been a lot of rumours about providers lowering their service, the infrastructure just isn't there as more and more people want broadband and that will just get worse if the next gen consoles have to be online, Microsoft would have to bring out there own internet or something to make it work.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

That's all fair and good if your only use cases are those that require online functionality. For console games, that's hardly the scenario.

I don't get Penguin's analogies either. What does a single player game and a telephone have to do with one another, as he mentions?

I suppose in Penguin's arguments, all DVD and Blu-ray players should require an online connection.

 

[Carlbeego]

My internet goes down all the time.

 

[Penguins&PolarBears]

I don't get Penguin's analogies either. What does a single player game and a telephone have to do with one another, as he mentions?

Cellphones are notoriously unreliable communication devices. And yet increasingly people have come to depend upon them instead of landlines and pay phones. People tolerate service interruptions is the point.

Pretty simple analogy. Not sure what the difficulty is on your part.

This doesn't really fit in with the rest of your argument.

Somebody being unsatisfied with the reliability of their provider and switching to a different one is analogous to somebody being unsatisfied with the reliability of the 720 and switching to the PS4.

The rest of your argument is like somebody quitting video games altogether because of the 720's required internet connectivity being problematic.

No we're talking about the Internet going down. People blame their service provider for that, not the console manufacturer. If we're talking about Xbox Live or PSN going down frequently that's a different matter, but specifically we were talking about the unreliability of the Internet in general.

Switching consoles would be like someone switching phones and blaming dropped calls on the iPhone itself instead of on AT&T. As long as Xbox has exclusive content that is popular then the hardware will sell and people will find the most dependable service provider so that they can get reliable access to that content.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

Global internet use btw.

This is awesome. It also tells an interesting story about what times regions use the Internet the most.

 

[Ding-Ding]

lol i was joking although i did read a book once about stuff like this and apparently it does go on, they say that people only remember the 'current' stuff so they can get away with the bad stuff.

Reverse PR only really works if you are trying to hide good features. Something like "We dont really have the resources to implement that great feature... Oh we have done it"

It doesn't work when you say "We are tossers... Oh No we're not"

In my experience, people tend to have long memories. So if this turns out to be false, a certain amount of this shit will stick, making some people to question a purchase.

 

[soul creator]

all the so-called "benefits" of an online-required console, don't actually require a console to always be online.

Sure, maybe on an individual game basis I can see "online required" being a thing, but there's no real reason to build it into a console (especially a console that'll be advertised with a large hard drive and a blu-ray player, not some kind of 100% cloud machine like OnLive) except for DRM purposes. Which obviously, I know they want to do, but as a consumer, DRM doesn't necessarily work in my favor, so I'm obviously not going to defend it.

I'm not seeing how the console will be vastly better from an online-requirement (I can certainly see online having huge benefits, as with my current consoles, but they should be benefits, not requirements for every single game)

Hell, even a purely networked device like a cell phone still allows you to use certain things offline (the stuff that makes sense...like games without online features)

 

[Enter The 36 Chambers]

The fact people here still believe that Microsofts target market is us gamers are so blind.

This thing will live and die by the "living room market". The Netflix, cable TV type users.

Why aim for the small time gaming market alone when there is a much bigger potential audience out there?

 

[Jake Tower]

Global internet use btw.

Look at all those DOTA 2 players.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

No we're talking about the Internet going down. People blame their service provider for that, not the console manufacturer. If we're talking about Xbox Live or PSN going down frequently that's a different matter, but specifically we were talking about the unreliability of the Internet in general.

Switching consoles would be like someone switching phones and blaming dropped calls on the iPhone itself instead of on AT&T. As long as Xbox has exclusive content that is popular then the hardware will sell and people will find the most reliable service provider so that they can get reliable access to that content.

1. ISP hopping is non-trivial and there aren't that many choices in many parts of the world.

2. If little Johnny can't play Halo 5 because the internet down then mommy is going to fucking flip out.

3. What infrastructure is some kind of "always online" service going to be built on? Xbox Live, of course! So when you say "Xbox Live...going down frequently that's a different matter" - no it's not.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Cellphones are notoriously unreliable communication devices. And yet increasingly people have come to depend upon them instead of landlines and pay phones. People tolerate service interruptions is the point.

Pretty simple analogy. Not sure what the difficulty is on your part.

A console that plays single player games should not be compared to cellphones OR even a landline/payphone at that. Phones are social devices by their very nature. You might as well say all DVD, Blu-ray and CD players should require an online connection.

 

[Satchel]

HAHA okay dude.

For some, it would be that way.

If your net goes down, your PS360 apps wouldn't work.

If your net goes down and you haven't done a licence transfer, your DLC and Arcade games wouldn't work.

What happens to free PS Plus games though? I might try this.

 

[abstract alien]

So you are conceding you have no answer to this Q?

It doesn't benefit a consumer at all. There is on reason to pretend as if it does. I personally don't care at all about the console being online, as it will be online and never disconnect anyway. This situation doesn't affect me in the slightest. Still, it doesn't offer me anything either.

I'm assuming this is being done for piracy, so maybe devs/pubs will have their works stolen less and get more revenue? I guess that is the point of it, so we will see how it works out for them. Then again, it could just make them a target for piracy, and we all know know how bad that can get. Imagine if Sony had a system such as this implemented when they were shut down. They entire console would have been rendered useless, all thanks to the pirates they were trying to stop lol

That really would have been some shit right there.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

They just have to be prepared. Hell Steam does already a lot of what said in my post. Big games come out all the time on Steam and it rarely ever goes down. I know people who have steam on 24/7 and it does exactly what im saying the next xbox will do. Just automatic everything, available anytime, from any device. Only im sure MS will try to take it one step further and you know what, ive got no problems with that, if thats what it turns out to be.

Here's how it works with Steam. I have it start with Windows in the morning and if the internet goes out during the day, offline mode should kick in. As far as I know, Steam doesn't boot you out of your game after 3 minutes of inactivity and Steam does allow you to start games in offline mode.

So...how is Steam the same?

 

[oneils]

What's ironic is using GAF as justification for an always online system when GAF is constantly down during high volume times like E3.

Fucking EviLore and his always-online bullshit! *Shakesfist*

 

[RetroStu]

The fact people here still believe that Microsofts target market is us gamers are so blind.

This thing will live and die by the "living room market". The Netflix, cable TV type users.

Why aim for the small time gaming market alone when there is a much bigger potential audience out there?

I don't agree, i mean Microsoft definately give you that sense but no matter what services they give to an 'Xbox', the reason why pretty much anyone will buy an Xbox is for games and games first and foremost.
If they don't want a games machine then they should of made a none Xbox box for all this stuff and called it something else.

EDIT: Also gaming is bigger than the movie industry, its the 'biggest' entertainment industry there is.

 

[GoofsterStud]

A console that plays single player games should not be compared to cellphones OR even a landline/payphone at that. Phones are social devices by their very nature. You might as well say all DVD, Blu-ray and CD players should require an online connection.

Be that as it may. I can still play Chu-Chu Rocket when I have no connection.

 

[Satchel]

My money is on "requiring" internet for initial game/disc verification.

 

[MarkusRJR]

Gonna love to read the first few threads when MS does Xbox Live maintenance and no one who owns a 720 can play their games.

 

[Silly.Mikey]

Here's how it works with Steam. I have it start with Windows in the morning and if the internet goes out during the day, offline mode should kick in. As far as I know, Steam doesn't boot you out of your game after 3 minutes of inactivity and Steam does allow you to start games in offline mode.

So...how is Steam the same?

As far as you know, this could all be bullshit.

 

[Willy Wanka]

My internet goes down for maybe a couple of hours a month at most but I'm still pretty certain I don't want to support a console that I can't use offline. I really hope there is more to the way it works than is being currently speculated because if not... I'm probably out!

 

[Uno Venova]

For some, it would be that way.

If your net goes down, your PS360 apps wouldn't work.

If your net goes down and you haven't done a licence transfer, your DLC and Arcade games wouldn't work.

What happens to free PS Plus games though? I might try this.

Plus games do work, I don't think trials do though.

 

[xxracerxx]

Fucking EviLore and his always-online bullshit! *Shakesfist*

God dammit why doesn't the Internet have an offline mode?!?!

 

[RetroStu]

Gonna love to read the first few threads when MS does Xbox Live maintenance and no one who owns a 720 can play their games.

They will all be playing games on their phones and tablets according to 'experts' anyway.

 

[rpmurphy]

all the so-called "benefits" of an online-required console, don't actually require a console to always be online.

Sure, maybe on an individual game basis I can see "online required" being a thing, but there's no real reason to build it into a console (especially a console that'll be advertised with a large hard drive and a blu-ray player, not some kind of 100% cloud machine like OnLive) except for DRM purposes. Which obviously, I know they want to do, but as a consumer, DRM doesn't necessarily work in my favor, so I'm obviously not going to defend it.

I'm not seeing how the console will be vastly better from an online-requirement (I can certainly see online having huge benefits, as with my current consoles, but they should be benefits, not requirements for every single game)

Hell, even a purely networked device like a cell phone still allows you to use certain things offline (the stuff that makes sense...like games without online features)

Really, if there is good content online that end users want, then they'll connect their devices. There's no need to mandate everyone to be always online "just because", unless it's for the purpose of DRM (no thanks).

 

[abstract alien]

God dammit why doesn't the Internet have an offline mode?!?!

Hey, you can save some pages to work offline!

 

[rpmurphy]

Hey, you can save some pages to work offline!

Hey, IE and Firefox still has Work Offline! I don't think Chrome has that mode though (probably for obvious reasons).