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Kraken Vs ZLIB: 29% Smaller Game Sizes Losslessly, 297% Faster Decompression on PS5
Damn they are actually improving their compression on PS5. The last update for comparison.
Update 1.1.2
19GB on Series X to 11GB on PS5
Update 1.3.0
23GB on Series X to 6.85GB on PS5
Fat Frog
I advertised for Google Stadia
And the winner is Son... Stadia, Luna, and cloud gaming.
Patch size ? Hu hu hu.
You can lock the thread.
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Tommi84
Member
At least I can still play my games without internet or in a place with bad reception
SLB1904
Banned
that gif is laggy as cloud gamingAnd the winner is Son... Stadia, Luna, and cloud gaming.
Patch size ? Hu hu hu.
You can lock the thread.
Fat Frog
I advertised for Google Stadia
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MasterCornholio
Member
That gif will entertain you while downloading
Not
sircaw
I don't think he's a fan of the white pooping devil.
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SLB1904
Banned
did you forget series x uses ssd as well?
hard drive is garbage
Xbox one and PC are also smaller than ps4
SLB1904
Banned
are you sure? but how small. you know what who cares about ps4 anyway
35 gb on PC
TheFawz
Member
One thing that isn't necessarily evident from comparing user facing build install file sizes between PlayStation and Xbox is the SKU split, whereas generally PlayStation platforms have a higher breakdown due to their regional set-up and so you end up with small file size per build due to Languages being split across a bigger spread of SKUs (SIEA, SIEE & SIEA-BR are common ones) while Xbox generally has less (Most are WW and at most some are WW and BR). This isn't as bad with PS5 with Sony now allowing for merged SKUs in a single binary but it's still at thing
Patch sizes are really out of control in the last few years.
THat shouldn't be, PC doesn't have this magic compression hardware, right? That's less than the PS5.
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PC has something even better. CPU cores, the game seems not to really need
CPU decompression can be much more size-efficient than hardware-decompression, it might just need a little bit longer. So with software decompression you can always use what is most optimal for your data. Therefore hardware-decompression has the advantage not to use the cpu at all, but is more or less fixed on the algorithm side.
Everything has its advantages and disadvantages. But that is also why there is not hardware-decompression on CPUs these days, as those algorithms come and go with the time and as soon the algorithm is optimized just a bit, the hardware-blocks can no longer be used. So on the PC you will always just see software-decompression (on the CPU or the GPU). Only in really, really rare special cases a hardware decompression block makes sense in PCs/workstations/servers. For a closed system like a console, hardware-decompression is normally the optimal choice ... but might not be so great for future backwards compatibility as the hardware might be changed and might be incompatible in the next-gen hardware because of more optimized algorithms in hardware.
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MS patch-systems on XBL have been a pile of #### for the past decade or so. Sony ones weren't 'much' better - but they at least made it possible to create efficient patches without having to PhD in their patch system (still far too much manual intervention and room for error that shouldn't exist - but... baby steps I guess).
alabtrosMyster
Banned
You are mostly right, the characters polygons were gouraud shaded and the backgrounds were textured even in FF VII.
The N64 was still pretty bad with textures.
Isn't what he described what MS are promising with dx-12 ultimate?
That's FUD. The size is much smaller because PS5 uses a much smaller packages so only the changed packages have to be in the patch. While XSX version contains the XB1, XB1X and XSX packages of the game. Could also be much smaller if there would be a complete different build for that game on XSX. Common sense should already tell you that. A compression tech that is more efficient does not lead to ~10x smaller packages. It is the packaging itself that is different here.
It is much to early to compare such games. First we need games that have native versions for both platforms that are not working on the old consoles. Than we might see some real world differences.
It might even need much longer on xbox to get smaller packages sizes because of PC compatibility. If a build can run on PC and xbox, why should the developer invest time into the process if it already works well
Tripolygon
Banned
Not saying you are entirely wrong about it not just being compression that makes the package difference but.While XSX version contains the XB1, XB1X and XSX packages of the game. Could also be much smaller if there would be a complete different build for that game on XSX.
First we need games that have native versions for both platforms that are not working on the old consoles.
It might even need much longer on xbox to get smaller packages sizes because of PC compatibility. If a build can run on PC and xbox, why should the developer invest time into the process if it already works well
1. The XB1 has a different package than XSX/S.
2. XSX and PS5 have native versions that don't work on old consoles
3. PC games don't run on XSX nor PS5 even though technically they run on the same game engine but packaged differently for each console.
Tommi84
Member
Why is it required to download ALL those versions when someone only has XSX? I know, I know... smart delivery. As a consumer, I care about the end result. And the result is PS5 download is 3GB, and XSX is 40GB so it would be a matter of playing the game today or in two days time. Especially when you see there's a XB1 version of the package to download.
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Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Seems a bit biased to assume PS5 games will have better assets.
There are many other factors that needed to be considered such as, seriesX could have bigger file size, SFS, ram bandwidth etc.
It seems the better compression stack of PS5 will result in smaller file sizes. We dont know which multiplat will have better "assets". Pixel quality also comes into play, the X1X version of RDR2 appeared to have better textures in some instances compared to the PS4 pro, but it turned out the higher resolution gave certain textures a higher quality appearance.
There are many other factors that needed to be considered such as, seriesX could have bigger file size, SFS, ram bandwidth etc.
It seems the better compression stack of PS5 will result in smaller file sizes. We dont know which multiplat will have better "assets". Pixel quality also comes into play, the X1X version of RDR2 appeared to have better textures in some instances compared to the PS4 pro, but it turned out the higher resolution gave certain textures a higher quality appearance.
1. The XB1 Version has just the XB1 packages, the XB1X Version has the XB1 + the addition XB1X packages and the XSX adds on that. That's why the game get's bigger and bigger with every package.
2. XSX has addition resources and code-path to run on the XSX but still has the resources of the older generation. In most cases you can copy the game over to a HDD, go to your XB1 and play the game without any additional download (maybe license)
3. Yes you can't run PC games on XB directly, but the code (expect for the "executable") is the same. DX11/12 code that runs on PC also runs on XB, so the packages remain more or less the same. In the end the build-pipeline will be the same where it is not needed to fix a problem.
Smartdelivery is only as good as the developer behind the game
. If the developer goes the easy route (and I don't know why they shouldn't) they make it like I described in No1. Just additional packages for additional consoles. They could also make completely different packages, but so far not many games did that. For the developer this is just extra work to gain ... well nothing from a performance perspective. The use has just to download more, so nothing that has to be changed (never change a running system (or build-pipeline in that case).If I remember correctly e.g. Gears 5 has different packages for the different systems. Size was cut in half on XBSX and XBSS. One of the first titles (on xbox) where we can see what a different packaging process can do. But I guess it is still a long road to optimize package sizes. PS5 with it's one console API is much further ahead with this.
RDR2 on PS4 Pro had much worse issues with the really bad cb implementation. I really don't know why they never really fixed that, because it give the game such a blurry look and texture detail went down with it.
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Great Hair
Banned
alucard0712_rus
Banned
I wonder if someone knows what lossless compression and it's limitations are, lol.
Solarstrike
Gold Member
Bo_Hazem
Banned
You need lossless compression for the whole package: Game logic, audio, etc. Lossy works great for graphical assets as the quality hit is usually minor, and it's usually fixed and pre-compressed before going to Kraken/ZLIB.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
My ex told the same. The bigger, the better. She lied. That was not fun. Not fun at all!i was always told bigger is better, (Damn EX girlfriends) Fuck this thread, Too confusing
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
That's ... not true. Why would it do that? That's not very "smart". The following is from Xbox's official website.
Notice that it says that Smart Delivery detects what system you're on and only installs that version. If you have an Xbox One version, it does not "add on". It replaces that backward compatible version.
alucard0712_rus
Banned
I know that but it seems someone makes unrealistic assumptions about lossless compression and it's abilities.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
1. The XB1 Version has just the XB1 packages, the XB1X Version has the XB1 + the addition XB1X packages and the XSX adds on that. That's why the game get's bigger and bigger with every package.
2. XSX has addition resources and code-path to run on the XSX but still has the resources of the older generation. In most cases you can copy the game over to a HDD, go to your XB1 and play the game without any additional download (maybe license)
3. Yes you can't run PC games on XB directly, but the code (expect for the "executable") is the same. DX11/12 code that runs on PC also runs on XB, so the packages remain more or less the same. In the end the build-pipeline will be the same where it is not needed to fix a problem.
Smartdelivery is only as good as the developer behind the game
If I remember correctly e.g. Gears 5 has different packages for the different systems. Size was cut in half on XBSX and XBSS. One of the first titles (on xbox) where we can see what a different packaging process can do. But I guess it is still a long road to optimize package sizes. PS5 with it's one console API is much further ahead with this.
RDR2 on PS4 Pro had much worse issues with the really bad cb implementation. I really don't know why they never really fixed that, because it give the game such a blurry look and texture detail went down with it.
I wonder if it looked worse then the native resolution the checkerboard solution was reconstructing from.
Man, must we really discuss such basics here? Smartdelivery does not do anything automatically (from a developer-perspective). It is up to the developer how this is implemented. Just like on xb1x-patches it were additional packages (addons if you want). But the developer can also decide that every system (xb1, xb1x, xsx, xss, pc) gets it completely unique package. But most times it is just an addon. This is why the games sizes increase so much but not on native ps5 titles. Yes the kraken compression is a bit better but the real difference currently is just the packaging.That's ... not true. Why would it do that? That's not very "smart". The following is from Xbox's official website.
Notice that it says that Smart Delivery detects what system you're on and only installs that version. If you have an Xbox One version, it does not "add on". It replaces that backward compatible version.
And as I already wrote, you can copy many games from an XSX to HDD go with that HDD to an xb1 and play the game without any big downloads.
Md Ray
Member
Fuck this thread, Too confusing
VargasPaPuM
Member
ok, but I didn't seed that 297% in Realworld yet.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
In some games it's there, like RE8. 2sec vs 8-6sec, so 300-400% decompression speed delta.
VargasPaPuM
Member
Please post proof
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I think you are fighting at best or trying to stir shit at worst over the wrong item. You are focusing on how fast the data decompressed with one algorithm vs another and I think you are trying to make it a the console war angle which feels quite odd.
That number you referenced compared zlib decompression vs kraken decompression, ask RAD Game Tools for their internal benchmarks. What matters for the consoles is the latency and throughout the two console makers were able to achieve and we have discussed over those two numbers ad nauseam. I do not think we need the n-th “console A cannot possibly be in any way not superior item by item to console B, so console B strengths must be overrated, faked, not usable, etc… so I can reconcile with the marketing that lead me to think console A was a monster that would have trounced console B and its non fixed clocks”.
Riky
$MSFT
Not true in every case, easily tested by downloading Sea Of Thieves onto an external, the single file works on Xbox One, X, Series S and Series X.That's ... not true. Why would it do that? That's not very "smart". The following is from Xbox's official website.
Notice that it says that Smart Delivery detects what system you're on and only installs that version. If you have an Xbox One version, it does not "add on". It replaces that backward compatible version.
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Shmunter
Member
So smart deliver downloads higher rez XsX textures to the XsS? That’s not smart, especially with the microscopic 500gig on XsS???
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Riky
$MSFT
It will only play the correct version, that's the smart part.
Shmunter
Member
Smartplay? No so much the delivery?
Jemm
Member
Doesn't it depend on which console you download it? If you download it to the external with XSX, it will download SoT with XSX assets.
If you download it first with XSS, it'll download less assets and XSX assets only when you connect the external to the XSX.
Riky
$MSFT
No.
You can move the game around with the external or the storage card, I've got all four versions and just move the drive around, it plays with no problem.
Riky
$MSFT
It depends on the game like I said, take Resident Evil 8, you can move it on a storage card between the consoles, or MCC you can move between all four, it doesn't download anything extra.
Only shrinkable games are different sizes and there are not many of them.
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