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LOreal Drops Transgender Model After All White People Racism Post
- Thread starter DogDude
- Start date
Karsticles
Member
The problem is that it's racist.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Another thing that irritates me is being talked down to as if I'm dumb as a rock (yes "ALL white people").
Thank god a 29 year old model is here to tell me about the legacy of the British Empire and the evils of colonialism. Is she going to mention the indentured servitude of the white working class that helped fuel the industry of the British Empire at the demands of the upper class? I suppose not. You can't rally against ALL white people and give a balanced historical outlook on the era you're talking about.
She's of the era of iphones and social media, so thinks ALL white people were counting money like Scrooge McDuck while black people were put in shackles.
Preface: everyone's racist. It's more or less a universally imposed element of social conditioning in human culture at present, and we're hardwired to utilize reductive stereotypes one way or another in social interactions for expedience, so as long as there are cultural distinctions between supposed races of people those distinctions will be used to racist ends. We're all racist. The important buffer between those subconscious mechanisms and how you ultimately comport yourself comes down to the awareness of your racial biases and how they might be influencing you from the instant you have that racial data in-hand, and whether you attempt to adjust for that where possible in order to treat people fairly and respectfully based on their individual qualities instead (especially when something significant is on the line with that interaction). The second half of that buffer is how you acknowledge and account for whatever privilege society affords you in this embarrassingly stupid codified hierarchy, and that part's where, arguably, the disproportionately privileged folks have disproportionate responsibilities.
Okay, so, Munroe's original Facebook post (as described in the OP) sounded highly inflammatory and damaging to PR for the company she signed on to represent from what I can tell, and completely at odds with the company's intent and message. Yeah, it's understandable on a human level to express intense frustration during the Charlottesville incident, no matter who you are, since, you know, trendy Nazi white supremacists beat and murdered protesters on US soil, the hefty police presence at the scene did fuck-all to mitigate it, and POTUS offered the Nazis sympathy instead of condemnation. Yikes. That tells us a lot about the overwhelming systemic clusterfuck involved at all levels of this, no doubt.
However, it's still extremely tone-deaf to call out white people as a monolith of racist oppression responsible for Charlottesville when a white girl was murdered standing up to the Nazi cunts, and a diverse group stood against the fascist baddies there in general and many were harmed for their efforts. That's probably not the moment to single out The Race of White Oppressors to Blame for it rather than the actual Nazi/white supremacist perpetrators and their sympathizers, putting it very mildly. You're consciously pursuing a racist position by drawing lines in the sand purely across racial boundaries to make targeted accusations or assignment of blame about a specific event like Charlottesville. What went down there involved real individual actors with agency and culpability. "White people" as a racial block did not march with tiki torches and AR-15s that night chanting Nazi mottos and looking for blood, and "non-white people" as a racial block did not stand up to them and bleed and die for their efforts, regardless of the underlying systemic factors that brought us to the moment of confrontation. Framing it otherwise does a disservice to the heroic people of all backgrounds who stood up to the Nazis that night because it was the right thing to do.
Okay, so, Munroe's original Facebook post (as described in the OP) sounded highly inflammatory and damaging to PR for the company she signed on to represent from what I can tell, and completely at odds with the company's intent and message. Yeah, it's understandable on a human level to express intense frustration during the Charlottesville incident, no matter who you are, since, you know, trendy Nazi white supremacists beat and murdered protesters on US soil, the hefty police presence at the scene did fuck-all to mitigate it, and POTUS offered the Nazis sympathy instead of condemnation. Yikes. That tells us a lot about the overwhelming systemic clusterfuck involved at all levels of this, no doubt.
However, it's still extremely tone-deaf to call out white people as a monolith of racist oppression responsible for Charlottesville when a white girl was murdered standing up to the Nazi cunts, and a diverse group stood against the fascist baddies there in general and many were harmed for their efforts. That's probably not the moment to single out The Race of White Oppressors to Blame for it rather than the actual Nazi/white supremacist perpetrators and their sympathizers, putting it very mildly. You're consciously pursuing a racist position by drawing lines in the sand purely across racial boundaries to make targeted accusations or assignment of blame about a specific event like Charlottesville. What went down there involved real individual actors with agency and culpability. "White people" as a racial block did not march with tiki torches and AR-15s that night chanting Nazi mottos and looking for blood, and "non-white people" as a racial block did not stand up to them and bleed and die for their efforts, regardless of the underlying systemic factors that brought us to the moment of confrontation. Framing it otherwise does a disservice to the heroic people of all backgrounds who stood up to the Nazis that night because it was the right thing to do.
IrishNinja
Member
lol at the garbage hot takes on page 1 - the follow-up shouldn't have been needed, but if anyone actually bothered to read that well thought out & written post and still comes back with the mess that was some of the dismissive posts from earlier on, i hope you don't identify as left/ally/any of that.
MikeBreezy92
Member
You also have to realize that I'm coming from multiple confrontations about racism where even me talking about systemic racism verbatim doesn't work. As I've said earlier in the thread semantics always gets in the way so I've honestly given up on making things easier to break down.
But no I don't disagree because all white people have been racist in their lives or have been complicit at some point in time due to society's norms and how it views minorities. Not saying all white people are a willing participants no. I'm saying this is just something you partake due to the society as a whole being racist (which is why I don't separate it using systemic). Saying all white people is racist shouldn't be a damning statement if that is understood but if that can't be understood then we can't get anywhere.
"all white people is racist" sounds pretty damning to me, damned if you do damned if you don't even, so why bother?
MikeBreezy92
Member
Because you actually give a damn about making the world a better place than worried about your ego or on the opposite end feeling guilty for shit you don't have control over.
That's another thing. No one is saying you have to feel guilty 24/7 or anything either. Just be aware and do better.
IrishNinja
Member
l'oreal showing their ass here - they want a prominent black trans figure to prop up but nothing remotely to do with her struggle
with respect: given the events since (and today alone) is not likewise a little tonedeaf to ignore the overwhelming role of centrists/liberals lining up to paint antifa & any of these heroic people as simply in the same boat as said nazis? moreover, the author clearly wasn't speaking in a vacuum of just that one event.
why indeed
^
with respect: given the events since (and today alone) is not likewise a little tonedeaf to ignore the overwhelming role of centrists/liberals lining up to paint antifa & any of these heroic people as simply in the same boat as said nazis? moreover, the author clearly wasn't speaking in a vacuum of just that one event.
why indeed
^
ForsakenLotus
Member
I'm inherently a part of the problem because of the color of my skin...
Respectfully, but your definition of the words racism, racist et al simply does not make sense to me. Your unwillingness to use Systemic Racism seems nonsensical. I don't mean this in a rude way either. Literally the constraints seem abitrary as if you want to be subversive by saying all white people are and have been racists while trying to proclaim that it shouldn't be seen as a derogatory statement when clearly you know it will. It's a puporseful perversion of a very strong word and I'm not sure I understand the intent. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I'm struggling to.
You can give a damn about making the world a better place without calling all white people racists
Funkyhamster
Member
I think the reason I have a hard time with statements like this one is that they imply an extreme and unrealistic prescription for righting the wrongs of racism. If my entire existence is drenched in racism, that means that the only morally correct course of action is to devote my entire existence to eradicating racism. Even if that premise is valid, I think I'm too selfish of a person to do that. I only have it in me to spend a certain small number of hours per week volunteering and to spend a certain small fraction of my income on donations to nonprofits, so I'd rather stick to my existing worldview, which lets me convince myself I'm a decent person.
I generally respond more positively to messages like this: "Systemic racism means that wealth and power are distributed unevenly among races. People with more wealth and power have a moral obligation to help even the playing field by dismantling systemic racism."
I like this message more because A) it allows me to do other things with my life in addition to fighting systemic racism, and B) it identifies as the source of my moral obligation not the shade of my skin itself, but the fact that the shade of my skin has conferred societal advantages on me.
This is a good take. FWIW, it also helps that a tangible, easy way to combat racism (I'm speaking generally, not to you cause I'm sure you do you part) is to not vote for policies or politicians that are racist/harmful to PoC. An added bonus is that most of these politicians/policies hurt White people too! The hard part is convincing people "X person/policy is racist!" and that voting against it is almost always good for them too.
This is also a good take.
It's embarrassing, but not too surprising...
I'll just say that I spend a lot of time defending Muslims from any nationality by saying that, it may look like it now, but most terrorism in history hasn't been the result of Muslims acting out.
I point out that Christians have done plenty of stuff in the name of Gebus.
And blaming all whites is just as ridiculous. Not only is the construct of "whites, black, latino, asian", as it's talked about right now, a very American thing, and has changed throughout the world and history, but basic history tells us that humans in every continent have been maiming and killing each other for ever.
It takes a "noble savage" type of logic to state that only people of white skin have been violent throughout history.
I point out that Christians have done plenty of stuff in the name of Gebus.
And blaming all whites is just as ridiculous. Not only is the construct of "whites, black, latino, asian", as it's talked about right now, a very American thing, and has changed throughout the world and history, but basic history tells us that humans in every continent have been maiming and killing each other for ever.
It takes a "noble savage" type of logic to state that only people of white skin have been violent throughout history.
Then say that.
But I saw an equally asinine post on Tumblr today, which stated that just because you're white, you are racist.
That was the actual, literal, argument. Since you're white (like, skin colored white or "anglo-saxon culturally"? Doesn't matter, just white, according to the post), you are automatically racist.
It basically said that there was nothing white's could do to not be racist, because simply by existing in the current society they were, and therefore, the best they could do is simply aspire to not be racist.
You can't expect people to actually do anything by telling them "you can't actually achieve what I'm telling you you should achieve, but you'll be more worthy of my respect if you simply try".
They could literally grow up without ever being racist to anyone, but it's never going to be good enough because "he's not aware of racism everywhere else".
It was like reading a Catholic post, but instead of original sin it's the original skin color you're born with.
And it's entirely tone deaf to racial dynamics outside of the present and even the United States.
I'm concerned that how things are said and communicated will ultimately lead to greater oppression of people of color
Doctor_Thomas
Member
I find the idea that I must be racist based on my skin colour that I have no control over to be very racist.
On a more serious note, while the later contextualisation is good, the original statement and making sweeping statements about one race is unhelpful. Sweeping negative statements and generalisations about a particular race are racist. Being white doesn't automatically make you immune from being a victim of racism and you don't have to be white to be a racist or make racist statements. Not going to pretend the systematic racism that black people have suffered, as an example, is on the same level as a model making statements about white people, but a racist statement is just that.
On a more serious note, while the later contextualisation is good, the original statement and making sweeping statements about one race is unhelpful. Sweeping negative statements and generalisations about a particular race are racist. Being white doesn't automatically make you immune from being a victim of racism and you don't have to be white to be a racist or make racist statements. Not going to pretend the systematic racism that black people have suffered, as an example, is on the same level as a model making statements about white people, but a racist statement is just that.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
No lies detected.
Also fuck tone policing white moderates.
Also fuck tone policing white moderates.
Pretty sure this concern has been expressed ever since the first black person argued that they had rights
Cool story
Messofanego
Banned
But you don't, really. You're not really concerned, you're more concern trolling. You're more threatening that how this person words her statements is what could lead to more oppression if she doesn't do it how you like it. Nevermind getting the jist of what she said about how systemic racism is conditioned into everyone, now that she's said it like this, she has led to the rise of more neo Nazis and white supremacists and more racism. Let's scare each other about the consequences so uppity minorities know to speak with perfectly non-provocative unanimously approved speech or never speak up again.
Yes, there are those of us who believe communicating well is a good strategy to get people to listen to your real point, wouldn't you know?
And there are those of us who can be concerned equally about both things, or show concern in different degrees, but still concern.
And again, In my experience as a non-American, I've had more problems with Americans in general than just white Americans or POC Americans.
Y'all have some issues. Stop acting like any of you could throw the first stone at anybody.
I'm threatening her now?
And wow, "uppity minority" I feel like you're just projecting.
Well this is a level of engagement I expect from a 12-year-old on 4chan
NoblesseOblige
Banned
That's why you don't engage users with <1 PPD earnestly. Notice how infrequently that person posts yet has 2nd most posts in this particular thread. They're obviously trolling it and aren't here to have an honest discussion. Just throw them on ignore.
MWS Natural
Member
Yeah this is a much easier pill to swallow for white folk.
You fully agree with everything they said? And lol at every person who disagrees with this being white and/or a moderate. Seriously.
If you don't know the difference between "all white people are racist" and "I have rights" then I don't know what to tell you, sorry.
Yeah I should have looked at more of their post history.
Yeah, society throughout history has always been built on the back of slavery and exploitation of peoples - mostly minorities (Today it's 'cheap' asian 'labor', prison 'labor'). She makes a lot of truthful points, in a justifiably angry tone due to KKK and Neo-Nazis openly marching in a big way + president's remarks. No lies detected.
But... then saying that "ALL WHITE PEOPLE" are responsible for some really shitty white people's racial violence was just dumb. That racism is "inherited", which makes it seem like it's baked into your DNA or willfully passed down and accepted knowingly. She was conflating white privilege with something more sinister and that is not fair or correct. White privilege =\= being responsible for racial violence that you did not commit, condone. I'm curious to know if those more incendiary comments are her serious beliefs, or if her post was just unrefined/lacked appropriate wording because of the anger.
It was a raw, angry post. Those never go over well with employers, I'm not entirely surprised they dropped her - the post went over the line with the broadstrokes just enough.
But... then saying that "ALL WHITE PEOPLE" are responsible for some really shitty white people's racial violence was just dumb. That racism is "inherited", which makes it seem like it's baked into your DNA or willfully passed down and accepted knowingly. She was conflating white privilege with something more sinister and that is not fair or correct. White privilege =\= being responsible for racial violence that you did not commit, condone. I'm curious to know if those more incendiary comments are her serious beliefs, or if her post was just unrefined/lacked appropriate wording because of the anger.
It was a raw, angry post. Those never go over well with employers, I'm not entirely surprised they dropped her - the post went over the line with the broadstrokes just enough.
How one says something in politics matter regardless of how accurate you are.
That being said, I don't think Evilore's point "everyone is a little racist" is wrong. It's also a spectrum not a binary. A big issue is that too many people think "racism" only means what went down in Charlottesville. So people spend so much time/energy on "I'm not racist" because the thought "fuck them negros" never enters their head that "innocuous" things like school zoning fly under the radar but are still racist too. Fighting for the status quo or valuing "order" over justice is also complicit to racism even if that person holds little ill will to PoC.
It feels exhausting having to tiptoe around this. Worrying about people's feelings when real bad shit is going down to others. I'm not saying the model's first take was the best/appropriate way to go about it. It doesn't give enough credit to those who are legit trying among other issues. However, I feel most of us have been in enough of these conversations to know that even talking about this in the "right/better way" can be like smashing your head against a wall.
As a straight dude I shrug off nearly all generalizations against those groups because I know who I am, I know what I have done well or done poorly and I know I'm in the "in group" in both those circumstances so it's really hard to hurt me along those axes. That doesn't mean such statements aren't dumb or shouldn't be criticized. But maybe shrug/laugh off dumb shit thrown your way if its "attacking" you along an axis of power rather than get triggered? I'm just speaking in general.
FWIW, I feel her second take was mostly on point but I think the first take was "hot" enough that I'm not really bothered they fired her.
That being said, I don't think Evilore's point "everyone is a little racist" is wrong. It's also a spectrum not a binary. A big issue is that too many people think "racism" only means what went down in Charlottesville. So people spend so much time/energy on "I'm not racist" because the thought "fuck them negros" never enters their head that "innocuous" things like school zoning fly under the radar but are still racist too. Fighting for the status quo or valuing "order" over justice is also complicit to racism even if that person holds little ill will to PoC.
It feels exhausting having to tiptoe around this. Worrying about people's feelings when real bad shit is going down to others. I'm not saying the model's first take was the best/appropriate way to go about it. It doesn't give enough credit to those who are legit trying among other issues. However, I feel most of us have been in enough of these conversations to know that even talking about this in the "right/better way" can be like smashing your head against a wall.
As a straight dude I shrug off nearly all generalizations against those groups because I know who I am, I know what I have done well or done poorly and I know I'm in the "in group" in both those circumstances so it's really hard to hurt me along those axes. That doesn't mean such statements aren't dumb or shouldn't be criticized. But maybe shrug/laugh off dumb shit thrown your way if its "attacking" you along an axis of power rather than get triggered? I'm just speaking in general.
FWIW, I feel her second take was mostly on point but I think the first take was "hot" enough that I'm not really bothered they fired her.
ForsakenLotus
Member
So yeah, this is an example of one of the things I very much dislike about discussions about race and racism. People saying, "making derogatory, sweeping generalizations about an entire race is still racist" can be critisized as "tone policing" by "white moderates."
It's regressive, and unfortunately ironic given the topic.
Well we should also note that racist/racism has a clearly negative connotation. Like, everybody has inherent perceptual biases, and sometimes those biases are based on facts but with an underlying understanding of the context behind the facts that allows for a deeper understanding.
For me, saying everybody is racist kind of lessens the value of the word by diluting it. I try to ignore it when people say it because I understand what they mean, but I'm not really a fan of that broad label.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
Could you point me to the parts of her statements that aren't true?
Tone policing isn't disagreeing, it is being butt hurt that PoC use language that you don't like.
disappeared
Banned
Tyler I love you and I agree with you.
But you, even at times, could seriously use an editor.
My sister works on manuscripts out of Texas. I could put you in touch with her.
It's dismissive and not helpful. Also apparently anyone that disagrees is white and a moderate.
I'm a multi-racial liberal from San Francisco and even I think the rant went a bit too far.
"the racial violence of white people any more. Yes ALL white people."
All white people engage in racial violence? Nope. All white people are personally responsible for other people's racial violence? Nope.
"Come see me when you realise that racism isn't learned, it's inherited and consciously or unconsciously passed down through privilege."
Racism is learned. Racism is not baked into your DNA. White privilege = benefiting from the society built on the backs of slaves/exploitation (reflective of her previous comment that is 100% accurate)
White Privilege =/= being overtly racist, is not willingly/knowingly passed like a baton all because you are born with light skin.
If that's not what she actually meant I'd appreciate a clarification, because it certainly came off that way.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I mean, isn't it pretty well accepted that the Irish were treated as non-white back in the day?
Darth Ghandi
Banned
NoblesseOblige
Banned
It doesn't help that those people tend to be the exact same who mock or reject the existence of things such as microaggressions. So they freak out even if you try to explain that while they're not cross-burning KKK racists they're still contributing to a society that maltreats minorities. I usually use the word 'ignorant' to describe those people rather than racist, but even that causes them to get all buttmad because they think you're calling them an idiot. White-fragility is so obnoxiously resistant to growth.
Glass Rebel
Member
I see that the old "being called a racist is worse than being the victim of racism" adage still holds true.
Well said EviLore.
ForsakenLotus
Member
As a POC surely you understand the basic sentiment that making a broad statement about an entire ethnicity, especially a negative or accusatory one, is wrong.
And if you agree with the above statement, surely you agree that still applies to white people.
That's not tone policing. To call it that is to delegitimize white people's complaints about racist statements, which is an implicit acceptance of racism towards white people. Doubtfully on purpose, but still true.
Fuck anybody that makes generalisations about millions of people based on their skin colour.
Like I broadly agree with you but the tricky thing is that LOTS of things are racist that people don't realize are racist. Like if your definition of a racist is a neo-Nazi than the number of racists is actually really, really small. If your definition of a racist is one who supports voter ID (as actually implemented by the GOP), advocates for whitewashing as the only way to sell media, support school segregation - that is rampant even in Blue States (via zoning not the explicit kind we used to have), etc. then the net your casting has to get pretty broad........
Now a solution to that could be "call their actions racist rather then the person". The same way someone can support White Supremacy and not be a White Supremacist. However, putting aside it can be tough to discern where the line is (because there is eventually a tipping point), people take SUCH issue having the things they say/do called racist that you start to get nowhere. As these posts highlight
even trying to be as measured as possible with how you use the word "racism" can be a no win scenario.
Sigh, this is such a hard topic to talk about. One day we'll figure it out
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
yeah fuck scientists too
Darth Ghandi
Banned
Your entire sentiment seems based in a vaccum.
I understand that no matter what PoC say white people will find it problematic.
I just plain don't buy the thought that white people will be more receptive if we change our tone/argument/protest.
I have yet to find ONE single way of protesting that doesn't rub white people the wrong way.
Have you?
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