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[uncelestial]

It was the right call dropping her. Her second post was on point but it almost seemed like an attempt to walk back the bracing statement she had originally made. While I think everyone understands harm in "doing nothing to fight racism," I can't sign on to any definition of "racist" that doesn't include either antipathy, bigotry, prejudice, or feelings of superiority towards another race. You can say "all white people have been complicit with a racist system, whether intentionally or not," but if it wasn't intentional and they have no malice in their actions and no prejudiced views, that isn't racism on any kind of personal level, it's ignorance, and laziness.

There are so many white allies trying to help. One just got run over and killed by a white supremacist in Charlottesville. And now that person who died fighting racism has been called a racist in a statement that really requires quite a bit of exposition to even begin to make sense, and even having read the second post I don't think it was ever truly justified.

 

[King Tubby]

Blaming all white people for racism is so stupid and counter-productive. It is wrong to make sweeping generalizations, about any group of people, based on the color of their skin, whether institutional racism tends to benefit them or not. Blame the action (or inaction) of those complicit, not the pigment.

I understand that no matter what PoC say white people will find it problematic.
I just plain don't buy the thought that white people will be more receptive if we change our tone/argument/protest.
I have yet to find ONE single way of protesting that doesn't rub white people the wrong way.
Have you?

I honestly don't even care if white people will be more receptive or not, it bothers me as a PoC to see anyone say "fuck (insert race of people here)" whether that's White, Black, Asian, or whatever. I don't support that no matter who it comes from or who it's directed towards.

 

[Yeoman]

yeah fuck scientists too.

Are you trying to say there is a scientific basis to these generalisations?
Or are you just deliberately misinterpreting my post?
If you want to make sweeping statements about whole groups of people that's fine. I reserve the right to call you a fucking racist for it.

This thread is a lost cause, people will defend any bullshit that is spouted as long as it's "their side" that's doing the spouting.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I honestly don't even care if white people will be more receptive or not, it bothers me as a PoC to see anyone say "fuck (insert race of people here)" whether that's White, Black, Asian, or whatever. I don't support that no matter who it comes from or who it's directed towards.

Cool, cause none said "fuck (insert race of people here)".

 

[Poor GRIMES]

Blaming all white people for racism is so stupid and counter-productive. It is wrong to make sweeping generalizations, about any group of people, based on the color of their skin, whether institutional racism tends to benefit them or not. Blame the action (or inaction) of those complicit, not the pigment.



I honestly don't even care if white people will be more receptive or not, it bothers me as a PoC to see anyone say "fuck (insert race of people here)" whether that's White, Black, Asian, or whatever. I don't support that no matter who it comes from or who it's directed towards.

When people say "fuck White people" they seriously don't mean fuck every single White person on Earth.. The takeaway from their, admittedly, strong words should be that they're pushing back against White institutions and not all White people.

In a similar sense, when people say "fuck the police" they do not mean "fuck every single policeman" they mean "fuck the police's corrupt institution that protects cops that have no business serving."

That said, tone policing shouldn't be done to people that are seriously venting their thoughts out about systemic, inbalanced power structures. If you don't push hard enough, then nothing will be done. For an example, see the Stonewall Riots and how that put LGBT issues into the mainstream consciousness.

 

[Sayad]

White peoples feelings > lives ruined and lost by the boot of white supremacy

People are more concerned with how things are said and communicated than the oppression of people of color. Sad to see so many support L'Oréal here in this thread.

Feelings, words and how you communicate them does matter, can't believe that's even up for discussion in a topic somehow related to political correctness! And yea, most people aren't going to sit down and listen to someone they see as a racist, breach about racism! Sad thing is it didn't even had to be one or the other!

When people say "fuck White people" they seriously don't mean fuck every single White person on Earth.. The takeaway from their, admittedly, strong words should be that they're pushing back against White institutions and not all White people.

What about when they say "Yes ALL white people"?!

 

[sasliquid]

This thread is just #notallwhitepeople

Racism is a spectrum and everyone's on it mkay

 

[ForsakenLotus]

Your entire sentiment seems based in a vaccum.

I understand that no matter what PoC say white people will find it problematic.
I just plain don't buy the thought that white people will be more receptive if we change our tone/argument/protest.
I have yet to find ONE single way of protesting that doesn't rub white people the wrong way.
Have you?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt when you say all white people will find it problematic no matter what is said is you being incredibly cynical, because the other option is racist. The same is true of the rest of your statements.

The fact of what you are saying aligns so neatly with what I'm voicing concern/frustration with is troubling. Racism is racism. A racist statement is a racist statement. Whether in a vacuum or not. I legitimately don't understand the equivocation here.

 

[King Tubby]

When people say "fuck White people" they seriously don't mean fuck every single White person on Earth.. The takeaway from their, admittedly, strong words should be that they're pushing back against White institutions and not all White people.

I know this, but I'm not going to assume that everybody is just going to hear that and go "oh, she doesn't mean me, I'm one of the good ones". It's still alienating and ultimately doesn't help anyone. Instead of saying "fuck white people" why not just say "fuck white supremacy"? It's both more accurate and less inflammatory.

 

[ForsakenLotus]

Like I broadly agree with you but the tricky thing is that LOTS of things are racist that people don't realize are racist. Like if your definition of a racist is a neo-Nazi than the number of racists is actually really, really small. If your definition of a racist is one who supports voter ID (as actually implemented by the GOP), advocates for whitewashing as the only way to sell media, support school segregation - that is rampant even in Blue States (via zoning not the explicit kind we used to have), etc. then the net your casting has to get pretty broad........

Now a solution to that could be "call their actions racist rather then the person". The same way someone can support White Supremacy and not be a White Supremacist. However, putting aside it can be tough to discern where the line is (because there is eventually a tipping point), people take SUCH issue having the things they say/do called racist that you start to get nowhere. As these posts highlight





even trying to be as measured as possible with how you use the word "racism" can be a no win scenario.

Sigh, this is such a hard topic to talk about. One day we'll figure it out

Oh I agree with you which is why I actively try not to tell people who say "everybody is racist" they are wrong, I just understand that racism has an inherently negative connotation and for many the divisiveness makes discussions brutal and reductive. Personally I like inherent biases or perception, but I'm not going to tell somebody they need to conform to my verbiage.

When it comes to such difficult but important discussions such as these using the right words and phrases sometimes means the difference between understanding and confusion, or acceptance to differing perspectives and rebuking unfamiliar thoughts. Though sometimes, often it devolves. I'm not perfect by any measure, but I try not to devolve discussion.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

I know this, but I'm not going to assume that everybody is just going to hear that and go "oh, she doesn't mean me, I'm one of the good ones". It's still alienating and ultimately doesn't help anyone. Instead of saying "fuck white people" why not just say "fuck white supremacy"? It's both more accurate and less inflammatory.

At this point, it's all semantics. Rebranding Black Lives Matter as Black Lives Matter (Too) would do absolutely nothing with how a majority of White Americans view Black Lives Matter.

And honestly, at this point, we should probably stop trying to sugarcoat our tone and stop allowing the right-wing media to continually step on our faces and steer the conversation towards their agenda. We never learn that meeting in the middle with our speech does absolutely nothing and only allows the right-wing to spew their bigoted rhetoric unchallenged.

 

[Baki]

She's right though...

Why did they fire her?

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt when you say all white people will find it problematic no matter what is said is you being incredibly cynical, because the other option is racist. The same is true of the rest of your statements.

The fact of what you are saying aligns so neatly with what I'm voicing concern/frustration with is troubling. Racism is racism. A racist statement is a racist statement. Whether in a vacuum or not. I legitimately don't understand the equivocation here.

It's not being cynical but what white people have shown us.
I was talking about "one policing white moderates".
That is pretty fucking far away from a generalization.

The fact you try and say "Racism is racism" only goes to further the point I don't consider you an ally.
You would rather talk about things like "reverse racism" thus making the conversation about you and your feelings.
People who try and make the argument that racism against white people holds the same weight as racism against PoC make me sick.

 

[Metroxed]

I'm assuming people on this thread are talking in a US-exclusive context, because otherwise little of it makes any sense, especially when applied to other countries.

 

[King Tubby]

At this point, it's all semantics. Rebranding Black Lives Matter as Black Lives Matter (Too) would do absolutely nothing with how a majority of White Americans view Black Lives Matter.

And honestly, at this point, we should probably stop trying to sugarcoat our tone and stop allowing the right-wing media to continually step on our faces and steer the conversation towards their agenda. We never learn that meeting in the middle with our speech does absolutely nothing and only allows the right-wing to spew their bigoted rhetoric unchallenged.

I'm not talking about rebranding BLM, I'm talking about not giving into frustration and attacking people based on their race. It's never necessary or helpful. And I'm not just interested in winning the hearts and minds of people who wouldn't...not be allies anyway, or whatever. Every little bit helps.

Being uncompromising in tone and speech absolutely does not include making sweeping generalizations. The alt-right loves that kind of shit. They explicitly seek to goad that kind of rhetoric. I want to deny them and defeat them.

 

[ForsakenLotus]

It's not being cynical but what white people have shown us.
I was talking about "one policing white moderates".
That is pretty fucking far away from a generalization.

The fact you try and say "Racism is racism" only goes to further the point I don't consider you an ally.
You would rather talk about things like "reverse racism" thus making the conversation about you and your feelings.
People who try and make the argument that racism against white people holds the same weight as racism against PoC make me sick.

I'm glad you don't consider me an ally because you seem like a racist to be honest.

 

[Carl2291]

Pretty scary that so many in this thread support and defend those words.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Pretty scary that so many in this thread support and defend those words.

so scary. as a white person I live in fear of those words.

 

[Carl2291]

so scary. as a white person I live in fear of those words.

Its pretty rare to see so many on GAF side with a racist. Let alone be racist themselves.

 

[Baki]

Pretty scary that so many in this thread support and defend those words.

In her follow-up note, none of what she said is untrue. Every single white individual in western society's still reaps the benefits of colonialism & slavery.

Now the question of, are all white people, anti other races. Of course that's factually incorrect but it seems like that's not what she was suggesting with her original note.

I think the followup note is pretty good.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I'm glad you don't consider me an ally because you seem like a racist to be honest.

Awww... Guess you don't have an argument

And, aren't YOU the lucky one? Getting to call PoC racists and NOT be affected by racism IRL...

 

[iPaul93]

Good.Fuck her.

 

[ForsakenLotus]

Awww... Guess you don't have an argument

And, aren't YOU the lucky one? Getting to call PoC racists and NOT be affected by racism IRL...

I'm not making broad generalizations, I'm saying the things you are saying are appalling and racist and certainly the fact that you are a POC and I'm white doesn't absolve you of your abhorrent statements/beliefs nor does it prevent me from calling out you for what you are saying.

 

[Dr.Phibes]

In her follow-up note, none of what she said is untrue. Every single white individual in western society's still reaps the benefits of colonialism & slavery.

Now the question of, are all white people, anti other races. Of course that's factually incorrect but it seems like that's not what she was suggesting with her original note.

I think the followup note is pretty good.

Please tell me how Estonians benefitted from colonialism and slavery.

 

[Roufianos]

Oh well. L'Oreal can find someone who isn't racist and actually makes for an attractive female.

 

[Okolonans]

When people say "fuck White people" they seriously don't mean fuck every single White person on Earth.. The takeaway from their, admittedly, strong words should be that they're pushing back against White institutions and not all White people.

In a similar sense, when people say "fuck the police" they do not mean "fuck every single policeman" they mean "fuck the police's corrupt institution that protects cops that have no business serving."

That said, tone policing shouldn't be done to people that are seriously venting their thoughts out about systemic, inbalanced power structures. If you don't push hard enough, then nothing will be done. For an example, see the Stonewall Riots and how that put LGBT issues into the mainstream consciousness.

I wonder if you're as charitable when other people make bigoted statements against other groups, or is it only against groups like white people and cops where you try to read minds?

Seriously, if someone says "Fuck X race of people," they're a racist. Even if they aren't, they're an asshole for saying it in the first place. It's a waste of time to be uber-charitable when it comes to gross statements like that.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Oh well. L'Oreal can find someone who isn't racist and actually makes for an attractive female.

Jesus

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

In her follow-up note, none of what she said is untrue. Every single white individual in western society's still reaps the benefits of colonialism & slavery.

Now the question of, are all white people, anti other races. Of course that's factually incorrect but it seems like that's not what she was suggesting with her original note.

I think the followup note is pretty good.

And non-white people benefit from the industrial exploitation too, because without it you wouldn't have the global trade and industrial revolutions that led to the iphones, and computers they use to spread the "ALL white people" are to blame narrative.

My ancestors were labourers. Y'know, the poor fuckers that spent their entire lives serving the rich upper class a-holes whose descendents still benefit from the exploitation of the lower classes. So, I refuse to take the blame for their bullshit. She wants to blame me for that then she can fuck right off.

 

[daxy]

edit: I don't even know

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Oh well. L'Oreal can find someone who isn't racist and actually makes for an attractive female.

Should have went for a hat-trick and included racism with your transphobic sexism.

 

[Ovek]

Jesus

I don't think Jesus is the right type for the L'Oreal campaign.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I'm not making broad generalizations, I'm saying the things you are saying are appalling and racist and certainly the fact that you are a POC and I'm white doesn't absolve you of your abhorrent statements/beliefs nor does it prevent me from calling out you for what you are saying.

I wrote tone policing moderate whites.
That isn't a generalization but a pretty focused statement.

The fact that you think me being mean to you on the interwebz is that same as the racism faced by millions of PoC wordwide is pretty telling.

 

[Yeoman]

Should have went for a hat-trick and included racism with your transphobic sexism.

Calling someone unattractive is transphobic?

 

[BassForever]

When people say "fuck White people" they seriously don't mean fuck every single White person on Earth.. The takeaway from their, admittedly, strong words should be that they're pushing back against White institutions and not all White people.

In a similar sense, when people say "fuck the police" they do not mean "fuck every single policeman" they mean "fuck the police's corrupt institution that protects cops that have no business serving."

That said, tone policing shouldn't be done to people that are seriously venting their thoughts out about systemic, inbalanced power structures. If you don't push hard enough, then nothing will be done. For an example, see the Stonewall Riots and how that put LGBT issues into the mainstream consciousness.

I understand, but the moment your statement can be interpreted as "fuck (all) white people/cops" you instantly lose a lot of people who would have listened to and possibly supported your point. When talking about super charged sensitive issues like institutional racism throwing out things that people can interpret as generalizations may feel good in the moment, but cause more harm then good since the very people that you her clarification statement are trying to reach (those who are implicit in racism by not acknowledging wp or doing something about it/racism) are more likely to get defensive and double down.

 

[Mathieran]

As a white guy I don't have a problem with anything she wrote. But when you get chosen to represent a international corporation you have to be more careful with your words. They cannot risk the negative backlash from those kinds of statements. So I understand why they let her go.

Yes, us white folk need an education, and her follow up post contains a lot of truth. She probably should have started with that instead of ended it.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

Neogaf would be a far better place if the bannings were handed out as liberally with actual racists. Some fairly disgusting opinions in this thread.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Calling someone unattractive is transphobic?

I've stopped dealing with daftness.

 

[FF Seraphim]

She's right though...

Why did they fire her?

Seriously? She made a sweeping generalization and the company isnt out to make people feel good it is out to make money. They have every right to fire her.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Can't just drop that and expect to keep your job, especially with a superficial industry like modeling.

Neogaf would be a far better place if the bannings were handed out as liberally with actual racists. Some fairly disgusting opinions in this thread.

You can report posts to the mods and they'll take care of it. I'm sure they'll appreciate it.

 

[Yeoman]

I wrote tone policing moderate whites.
That isn't a generalization but a pretty focused statement.

The fact that you think me being mean to you on the interwebz is that same as the racism faced by millions of PoC wordwide is pretty telling.

It's not focused at all when you're the judge of what "tone policing" actually is. From what I've seen so far it's generally defined as: "making a statement that I dislike".

 

[Chao]

She wrote a dumb post and then tried to fix it with "now you guys, see, what I really meant was..."

No you didn't, now it's too late.

Feel free to speak your mind but these kind of statements don't sit well with advertisers.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I understand, but the moment your statement can be interpreted as "fuck (all) white people/cops" you instantly lose a lot of people who would have listened to and possibly supported your point. When talking about super charged sensitive issues like institutional racism throwing out things that people can interpret as generalizations may feel good in the moment, but cause more harm then good since the very people that you her clarification statement are trying to reach (those who are implicit in racism by not acknowledging wp or doing something about it/racism) are more likely to get defensive and double down.

Dude, no matter how we make our argument some white person will take umbrage.

Case and point. I wrote "fuck tone policing white moderates" and people make it into a racist statement.

 

[ForsakenLotus]

I wrote tone policing moderate whites.
That isn't a generalization but a pretty focused statement.

The fact that you think me being mean to you on the interwebz is that same as the racism faced by millions of PoC wordwide is pretty telling.

The fact that me saying the words you are writing on the interwebz are bigoted and you defensively equate that to me saying your words are as bad as the centuries of slavery and every other racial injustice is telling. You have an agenda, and at the center of it is a pernicious, prejudiced, intellectually vapid and regressive belief system and a wholly unpleasant manner of conveying it.

Being racist is being racist. It's not about who was more racist. It's not a fucking contest. Just don't be racist.

For many of us, it's pretty easy to just not be racist.

 

[13ruce]

To fully stop racism well... fully is impossible but reduce it to such an extent that if the super rare person makes a racistic comment everyone looks in disgust or says something to him/her to put him/her in their place. Then all kinds of racism needs to be bad even against white people.

There will always be a majority of a group (be it crimewise or in populationwise etc that does not mean all of those people are bad etc.)

I do think tho some alt right media channels and outlets do have some "white" agenda's wich are bad and should be gone or be heavily changed/modified (*cough* fox, breitbart *cough*)

I do agree with people that US has a big problem with this issue still tho in Europe and other countries it's hugely improved these days. Sadly with Trump winning that progress is halted remember the bs he spouted out in his electing campaign pure racistic comments at times. It's insane thst guy is president now wich will halt any progress made and even set it back. Racists feel like they can speak open again or do crazy stuff without consequences.

It's sad to see issues like racism etc are still big in our modern age where tolerance has been grown alot with LBGT, treating people equal etc.

The most and sad funny part tho is there are even more problems clothes get made by poor people who work their ass off in china or africa etc. Same for devices you buy. So there are alot of more problems in the world wich needs fixing. And it's gonna take years no even decades. But with world/nation leaders like Trump all these problems will sadly will be put on hold or even be made worse.

The fucking president of the united states is a racistic bigot who things global warming/climate change is fake and he thinks of women as sex objects only.

Anyway sorry for the big post and as i white person i think that everyone is a equal human being skin colour, sexual orientation, gender and race don't make someone less or more a persons personallity or how someone is character wise says more about a person then where they come from or look like.

 

[Yeoman]

Case and point. I wrote "fuck tone policing white moderates" and people make it into a racist statement.

You made a statement about a racial group and people perceived it as racist?
Fancy that.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

It's not focused at all when you're the judge of what "tone policing" actually is. From what I've seen so far it's generally defined as: "making a statement that I dislike".

How is it not focused? I was pretty damn focused.

Tone policing is attacking the tone of the argument and not "making a statements I dislike".
The ONLY fucking argument held by false equivalency wannabe allies is tone policing straight up.

You made a statement about a racial group and people perceived it as racist?
Fancy that.

Tone policing white moderates aren't a racial group.
They can be PART of a group but aren't themselves one.

 

[Carcetti]

Tone policing white moderates is a thing, though. Check any thread on GAF about race issues and you'll see 'allies' who are super woke about fighting the power until they get inconvenienced slightly by something like a protest blocking a street they might drive on and suddenly the civil right activists turn into black block anarcho-fascists in their eyes.

On the original topic: I can see why they canned her but should've considered that before hiring her. Black and trans is the most oppressed minority in the USA and you're surprised they might get angry?

 

[SlickWilly223]

Yah, that's bad for business.

 

[fabricated backlash]

Today I learned that in 2017 people still believe in Völkerpsychologie.... amazing really.

 

[Roufianos]

Should have went for a hat-trick and included racism with your transphobic sexism.

How is it transphobic to not find someone attractive?