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[dem]

Google is absolutely killing it in education right now with google apps/chromebooks/classroom. Its really hard to go any other way. I'm starting to question why we are even using Windows outside of admin staff.


iPads are good in early years education and special needs cases. Pricing is brutal though.
I think Apple gives us something like 10 bucks off of retail for an ipad .. if we buy them by the 10 pack. We'd be cheaper buying retail most of the time.. but apple doesn't let anyone sell to education. Its all through them.

 

[GYNGA]

What a waste of money

 

[Halcyon]

An I can tell you with certainty that it was said.

I have never seen the rationale in arguing against progress. As someone pretty close to the education circle, there is marked improvement in students that use this technology on a daily basis at their desks in the classroom and this has motivated a number of schools and organizations to produce/supply solutions for their students.

A tablet isn't progress. Nothing about a tablet enhances a students ability to learn over a computer.

It's why offices aren't dumping out their desktops and replacing them with tablets.

 

[SocksForWoks]

If I was a student there I would be disappointed not to be getting some cool new toys but Apple and Pearson criminally overprice their stuff. I hate giving them support.

 

[Vanillalite]

Google is absolutely killing it in education right now with google apps/chromebooks/classroom. Its really hard to go any other way. I'm starting to question why we are even using Windows outside of admin staff.


iPads are good in early years education and special needs cases. Pricing is brutal though.
I think Apple gives us something like 10 bucks off of retail for an ipad .. if we buy them by the 10 pack. We'd be cheaper buying retail most of the time.. but apple doesn't let anyone sell to education. Its all through them.

Google Classroom is aces. Don't let anyone hear us say that though or else we are Google shills.

 

[Just_myles]

I agree with a other posters, chromebooks seems like a reasonable way to go for any child learning anything. Not just on cost but portability as well.

 

[jamesinclair]

A tablet isn't progress. Nothing about a tablet enhances a students ability to learn over a computer.

It's why offices aren't dumping out their desktops and replacing them with tablets.

I find it amusing when people say desktops are dead and it's all tablets.

They've clearly never worked a real job.

 

[bionic77]

A tablet isn't progress. Nothing about a tablet enhances a students ability to learn over a computer.

It's why offices aren't dumping out their desktops and replacing them with tablets.

I don't see how computers enhance learning either.

Eventually it comes down to students and teachers working their asses off. There is no app to get around it.

 

[Blackhead]

I mean are you seeing commission here? Holy balls. I'm sure google agrees with you implicitly. They even offer up "educational" pricing on Google Apps as well!! All so we (me, you, them) can bitch in 10 years about how google is behaving in an anti-competitive manner and under investigation by the Justice Department because 10 years earlier people bought into the simplicity and price of Chromebook ignoring the keys to the kingdom they were handing over to google.

and I'm the one who needs to stop type. There aren't big enough for your sales pitch. "All you need is google!!!"

ehh... *so much hate* *smh*

Last year's GAF thread (06-19-2013) My tax dollars being fucking wasted: LA spends $30M on iPads for schools.

The deal includes customized software (they are going to make an app specific for the curriculum, something most hardware manufacturers are bad at) and a 3-year warranty (something most manufacturers are bad at), and they already have custom education-focused solutions for syncing all devices and a education-discounted volume App Store. They also have the ability to lock down iPads during tests (or just in general) and wirelessly project the display to a classroom screen. And they already have software for educators to make their own digital lessons with iTunes U: http://www.apple.com/education/itunes-u/

I think it's a fine tool for education.

haha @ the angry generalizations and assumptions Shogmaster is making.

Apple has a big focus on education. There are tons of educational apps and digital textbooks that work great on the iPad. Do a couple of searches if you want some examples of how iPads are being used in the classroom. You'll find hundreds. There are plenty of education-specific features and support options that Apple provides for the iPad. Getting it in classes is a big initiative of theirs and it shows.

In this specific context, no one gives a shit about having an SD card slot or running Microsoft Office. You're missing the point.

Don't forget that Apple supports its devices, especially in the field of education, far better than random manufacturer of Android/Windows 8 tablets who will drop support of any specific device within months of it launching.

i think Chrome OS would be good for a school. Its cheap, has docs, and internet to access various educational web sights. Why should a school pay for built in software when much of it can be accessed for free such Khan Academy?

Why is free suddenly a synonym of better? This isn't some neckbeard building the cheapest PC he can, we're talking about educational software, which Apple apparently does really weell.

LAUSD says Apple was the lowest bid:
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/201...Pad-Deal-From-LA-Unified-School-District.html


Maybe Apple was able to undercut other bids since they already have iTunes U course management software already made:
http://www.apple.com/education/itunes-u/

The RFP included cost assumptions for learning management software:

I'm sure Apple being able to provide faster/cheaper support/repair/replacement via local Apple Stores also ties into the cheaper bid.


The RFP says they need to replace the device within 2 days. I'm sure it's easier for Apple to replace them faster than any other vendor--iPads are standardized hardware, they can just go to an Apple Store to get a replacement. Other vendors would've needed to provide a larger reserve of extra devices or pay for expensive shipping.

The current pilot projects at LAUSD require students to pay $35 to take out an insurance policy on their iPads.

 

[Vyer]

Seems this is more about inappropriate actions from the school administration than software.

The Chromebook shilling and OS wars in here is amusing though.

 

[SRG01]

Google Classroom plus Chromebook/Android already destroys whatever this supposed deal can offer at a much lower price.

edit: Google Classroom is a Learning Management System similar to Moodle...

 

[Halcyon]

I don't see how computers enhance learning either.

Eventually it comes down to students and teachers working their asses off. There is no app to get around it.

They enhance learning. My issue with tablets is the interface. Touch screen is like using a computer with your hands tied behind your back if you are trying to do anything useful.

Copying text, data input, writing papers. Taking notes, doing math. I can't see a single instance where a tablet has an advantage other than during nap time where everyone lays on the carpet and watches Barney or plays Candy Crush.

 

[Bornstellar]

Tried going all digital, but tbh paper and pencil was still the most effective. Schools should keep good comp. labs, but giving students tablets or devices of some kind seems incredibly wasteful.

 

[GabDX]

iPads were a terrible fucking idea in the first place.

Laptops bought for the same money would probably last twice as long for those students/districts.

I think the best option would have been Surface pads. Retain the full usefulness of a laptop while still being able to use it as a book or pad for writing with a stylus/digital pen. OneNote is still the GoAT for screen note taking anyway. I can't imagine they couldn't have negotiated a good deal with Microsoft for 18,000 of them. That would have been a win-win.

Is this paid advertising? You even bolded the product name not once but twice in this topic.

 

[Ovek]

I work in a large UK school and all I will say is that iPads are a fucking stupid waste of money.

Doesn't matter though headteachers love them because its got a stupid Apple logo on it and they look "posh", they couldn't give a shit if they actually work correctly or are appropriate for the curriculum.

Your UK tax money hard at work.

 

[Wiktor]

Kids need Windows or Linux laptops, not damn tablets and chromebooks. programming should be a required class in every school.

 

[Ovek]

Kids need Windows or Linux laptops, not damn tablets and chromebooks. programming should be a required class in every school.

Don't get me started on fucking Chromebooks!!!

 

[EmiPrime]

Get them Dell Chromebooks instead.

 

[Vanillalite]

Kids need Windows or Linux laptops, not damn tablets and chromebooks. programming should be a required class in every school.

I can program just fine on my chromebook.

 

[benjipwns]

Get them Dell Chromebooks instead.

Get them Sega Pico instead.

 

[GabDX]

Kids need Windows or Linux laptops, not damn tablets and chromebooks. programming should be a required class in every school.

I disagree. What most people need to learn is how to use a text editor and a spreadsheet software. That's all. They don't even need their own laptop for this. Computer labs are sufficient.

 

[UncleSporky]

This is relevant to my job. We just went through this process, evaluating different devices and whether they will meet our needs.

Apples products are fucking TERRIBLE for the tech department. You can't manage anything about them en masse. There's a huge process to get any sort of minimal management of the devices, which you have to go through manually for every single device. Ultimately they are designed for a single user, not something to be brought under a set of rights and policies corporation-wide. Seriously, we have like one or two carts of iPads at an elementary school and we've fought with Apple's support for ages trying to figure out a good way to manage them.

After much thought and testing we went with Chromebooks, and they are awesome. The students are enjoying them, they have actual keyboards so they can do homework and research on them, it's good stuff. Helps that we also use gmail for our corporate email. And we can manage a lot of stuff about them very easily.

 

[Bogus]

The big problem here, and the most important takeaway, is the amount of influence corporations like Pearson and Apple -- though Pearson more specifically -- have over education. This is a perfect example of gigantic corporations using their clout to surreptitiously dictate curriculum and, to an extent, the appropriation of tax dollars within a public school system. It's terribly concerning, and I'm glad it fell under such scrutiny.

Whether or not iPads, tablets, or other kinds of technology are the best fit for different classroom needs -- that's a separate discussion. An important one to be sure, but not the one that scares me.

 

[Trax]

Are you fucking kidding me? iPads for schools? There are FAR cheaper options who are very adequate.

 

[entremet]

Many other schools have done great deployments with iPads. I know since I've worked in the field. LAUSD was just botched from the beginning.

 

[SRG01]

Is this paid advertising? You even bolded the product name not once but twice in this topic.

As an instructor, if cost wasn't an issue, a Windows-based system like the Surface is the best choice out there considering the sheer number of software/utilities available to educators and students. The practical alternative is a cheap laptop.

And OneNote is indeed one of the best note-taking programs out there.

 

[JohnsonUT]

Many other schools have done great deployments with iPads. I know since I've worked in the field. LAUSD was just botched from the beginning.

Genuinely curious, how does this work? Does each kid get a personal laptop? Are they able to take them home or are they stored? What types of software do the older kids use? I can imagine the younger kids using the touch interface and passively consuming stories and lessons, but I cannot think of what the older kids would do other than use it as an e-reader.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

LAUSD was just botched from the beginning.

Generally speaking the LAUSD cannot be trusted with amounts of money exceeding six digits.

 

[dem]

This is relevant to my job. We just went through this process, evaluating different devices and whether they will meet our needs.

Apples products are fucking TERRIBLE for the tech department. You can't manage anything about them en masse. There's a huge process to get any sort of minimal management of the devices, which you have to go through manually for every single device. Ultimately they are designed for a single user, not something to be brought under a set of rights and policies corporation-wide. Seriously, we have like one or two carts of iPads at an elementary school and we've fought with Apple's support for ages trying to figure out a good way to manage them.

After much thought and testing we went with Chromebooks, and they are awesome. The students are enjoying them, they have actual keyboards so they can do homework and research on them, it's good stuff. Helps that we also use gmail for our corporate email. And we can manage a lot of stuff about them very easily.

You are describing my personal hell.
We have ~1000 ipads. Managing them is awful in shared use scenarios. Simply fucking awful.

 

[davepoobond]

I seem to remember being skeptical on this way back when they announced it but everyone seemed to be super supportive of it.

Guess I should have been angry for the conflict of interest more than the validity of using overpriced hardware

 

[benjipwns]

Generally speaking the LAUSD cannot be trusted with amounts of money exceeding six digits.

You'd let them have that much? At one time?

 

[UncleSporky]

Genuinely curious, how does this work? Does each kid get a personal laptop? Are they able to take them home or are they stored? What types of software do the older kids use? I can imagine the younger kids using the touch interface and passively consuming stories and lessons, but I cannot think of what the older kids would do other than use it as an e-reader.

I know you're asking about iPads but for us with Chromebooks, every kid at the high school, 9 to 12, has a Chromebook that they can take home and do whatever with, but they are essentially renting them from us and need to give them back when they graduate.

There was talk of collecting them at the end of the year and handing them out again at the start of the next year, but I think that is totally unfeasible. It was hard enough just handing them out last week. I can't imagine doing that every year, and trying to make sure each kid ends up with the same one.

The device is ultimately still ours, and falls under our acceptable use policy, so they are still expected not to browse porn with it at home with it or whatever. We aren't policing them really, it's more just in case it comes up at school, some kid is getting harassed by another via Chromebook etc.

 

[JesseZao]

Kids don't learn better on an ipad. Books are still far better tools.

 

[entremet]

Genuinely curious, how does this work? Does each kid get a personal laptop? Are they able to take them home or are they stored? What types of software do the older kids use? I can imagine the younger kids using the touch interface and passively consuming stories and lessons, but I cannot think of what the older kids would do other than use it as an e-reader.

In the industry this is called 1:1. So each kid gets a device. The devices are centrally managed so students can't install stuff.

There is a lot of content creation done with them. I heard of a school where students did oral presentations--elementary school kids--and taped themselves on their iPads and were given feedback on how to improve.

Pretty awesome stuff. Lots of dinosaurs in this thread. These are tools. How you use the tools is the important part. Most deployments give students agency on taking care of them and such.

 

[JohnsonUT]

I know you're asking about iPads but for us with Chromebooks, every kid at the high school, 9 to 12, has a Chromebook that they can take home and do whatever with, but they are essentially renting them from us and need to give them back when they graduate.

There was talk of collecting them at the end of the year and handing them out again at the start of the next year, but I think that is totally unfeasible. It was hard enough just handing them out last week. I can't imagine doing that every year, and trying to make sure each kid ends up with the same one.

The device is ultimately still ours, and falls under our acceptable use policy, so they are still expected not to browse porn with it at home with it or whatever. We aren't policing them really, it's more just in case it comes up at school, some kid is getting harassed by another via Chromebook etc.

Yeah I meant iPads because they are more expensive. But you bring up interesting points too. What is the rate of damage to these? Do parents have a way to lock the chromebooks down to prevent their own kids from looking at things deemed inappropriate? Are the chromebooks "hackable"? Can a kid with the know how throw a linux distro on there?

 

[Marty Chinn]

ehh... *so much hate* *smh*

Last year's GAF thread (06-19-2013) My tax dollars being fucking wasted: LA spends $30M on iPads for schools.

Good job =) I remember how people were praising how great iPads were and how it shows because schools are adopting them. Amazing how just a short time later iPads are getting ditched at the school level, iPad sales are down etc. It's not quite there yet, and probably won't ever get as bad, but it's starting to look like the bubble is bursting on tablets just like netbooks.

 

[entremet]

Good job =) I remember how people were praising how great iPads were and how it shows because schools are adopting them. Amazing how just a short time later iPads are getting ditched at the school level, iPad sales are down etc. It's not quite there yet, and probably won't ever get as bad, but it's starting to look like the bubble is bursting on tablets just like netbooks.

This is only happening because it's an high profile school district. LAUSD is the biggest outside of NYC's school system in the US.

But deployments of tablets, including iPads, have been done successfully by many districts.

But anyone in school IT deployment could tell you this was botched from the beginning.

 

[outunderthestars]

Kids don't learn better on an ipad. Books are still far better tools.

Unless you have developmental disabilities, dyslexia, ASD, poor vision, etc.

Tablets have advantages in specific situations.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

You'd let them have that much? At one time?

Well yeah, they have to keep the lights on and that costs at least $10k per cubic meter of office/class space per day. I expect some waste with an org as huge as the LAUSD, but I don't even trust them to build schools anymore, let alone fund a technology program.

 

[UncleSporky]

Yeah I meant iPads because they are more expensive. But you bring up interesting points too. What is the rate of damage to these? Do parents have a way to lock the chromebooks down to prevent their own kids from looking at things deemed inappropriate? Are the chromebooks "hackable"? Can a kid with the know how throw a linux distro on there?

It's kind of a brave new world, figuring out how it's all going to work.

They are hackable. Some kids have already put Linux on theirs. However we have a program for teachers to manage all the Chromebooks in their classroom, and if a device is in developer mode or Linux etc. it is not going to show up. So that gets them in trouble pretty easily. They're not supposed to hack them.

I think we have something that makes it so that even in developer mode they can't break out of the restrictions placed on them, but there's always some way around it.

I'm not sure if parents can restrict them. Some parents are trying to refuse them, but it's like...ok, that's no skin off our nose, you still paid for them. It's exactly like refusing to get your kid their textbooks. Your kid is going to suffer because they are now required for use in the classroom.

 

[entremet]

Well yeah, they have to keep the lights on and that costs at least $10k per cubic meter of office/class space per day. I expect some waste with an org as huge as the LAUSD, but I don't even trust them to build schools anymore, let alone fund a technology program.

I feel bad for LAUSD. It's not just that, but they're also hamstrung by the city and state. California is regulation hell.

 

[JesseZao]

Unless you have developmental disabilities, dyslexia, ASD, poor vision, etc.

Tablets have advantages in specific situations.

Sure, but that's not what this contract was for.

 

[Rafa=FedKilla]

Good, we don't want kids trying to swipe their textbooks or magazines when they get older.....

 

[thehypocrite]

GAF has a defense force for state corruption or is a manifestation of the apple defense force?

Incredible 😑😑😑

 

[JohnsonUT]

It's kind of a brave new world, figuring out how it's all going to work.

They are hackable. Some kids have already put Linux on theirs. However we have a program for teachers to manage all the Chromebooks in their classroom, and if a device is in developer mode or Linux etc. it is not going to show up. So that gets them in trouble pretty easily. They're not supposed to hack them.

I think we have something that makes it so that even in developer mode they can't break out of the restrictions placed on them, but there's always some way around it.

I'm not sure if parents can restrict them. Some parents are trying to refuse them, but it's like...ok, that's no skin off our nose, you still paid for them. It's exactly like refusing to get your kid their textbooks. Your kid is going to suffer because they are now required for use in the classroom.

Interesting. It is not exactly the same as refusing textbooks though. Textbooks are static in nature. These theoretically have everything on the internet within reach. Depending on your moral system, this could be a frightening thought.

 

[jackissocool]

My high school gave every student an iPad senior year and it was a terrible, terrible decision. There have been serious performance drops because kids just play games all day. They gave them to sixth graders, even! It accomplishes nothing but getting kdis to go there because they get free iPads. It's a waste of money and terrible for education.

 

[SimleuqiR]

Chromebooks to the rescue.

At what....1/4 the price? Maybe even less?

 

[Borman]

This is relevant to my job. We just went through this process, evaluating different devices and whether they will meet our needs.

Apples products are fucking TERRIBLE for the tech department. You can't manage anything about them en masse. There's a huge process to get any sort of minimal management of the devices, which you have to go through manually for every single device. Ultimately they are designed for a single user, not something to be brought under a set of rights and policies corporation-wide. Seriously, we have like one or two carts of iPads at an elementary school and we've fought with Apple's support for ages trying to figure out a good way to manage them.

After much thought and testing we went with Chromebooks, and they are awesome. The students are enjoying them, they have actual keyboards so they can do homework and research on them, it's good stuff. Helps that we also use gmail for our corporate email. And we can manage a lot of stuff about them very easily.

That is exactly the argument Ive made against iPads. People think Im crazy though.

 

[AbsolutBro]

Meanwhile some schools still struggle to update their 10 year old textbooks.

Explain to me why education should be on the state level again?

 

[bionic77]

They enhance learning. My issue with tablets is the interface. Touch screen is like using a computer with your hands tied behind your back if you are trying to do anything useful.

Copying text, data input, writing papers. Taking notes, doing math. I can't see a single instance where a tablet has an advantage other than during nap time where everyone lays on the carpet and watches Barney or plays Candy Crush.

I have yet to see how computers enhance learning other than khan academy videos. And that is a basically a video.

Can you give me an example of how it enhances learning? From my experience they are mostly used to fuck around and distract kids from what the teacher is talking about.