Support NeoGAF

[KHarvey16]

Doping science is almost always one step ahead of detection science. Once a dopant is found, a test needs to be developed that can detect it by direct means, surrogate markers, etc, qualified, then validated and even then, false positives crop up But a test can't be developed until the dopant and/or its effects are known.

Anyone who thinks an athlete can competitively complete the tour de france (or any of the other grand tours..giro and vuelta) on just gatorade, pasta, and a multivitamin is lying to themselves or doesn't know how demanding cycling is.

Doesn't mean that the TdF can't be completed w/o doping...just means that at the competitive level as it stands right now, it's more difficult to believe that top athletes are NOT doping.

Even granting you all of that accusations still require proof or evidence. Not saying you're singling him out, but simply saying "well of course he's cheating, that's obvious!" isn't enough. And in the end, if everyone is cheating he's still shown himself superior, hasn't he?

 

[Tarazet]

Even granting you all of that accusations still require proof or evidence. Not saying you're singling him out, but simply saying "well of course he's cheating, that's obvious!" isn't enough. And in the end, if everyone is cheating he's still shown himself superior, hasn't he?

If everyone is cheating, then it would stand to reason that whoever can afford the best drugs wins. But it's well known that T-Mobile had the biggest budget in cycling, by about double over anyone else, and there's strong evidence that there was team doping, and they never toppled Armstrong. No one could. He had the combination of raw strength and stamina (including a record-setting VO2max level), flawless technique, perfect strategic sense, and the most dedicated, single-minded team support in the sport's history. There are very real reasons why he was untouchable.

 

[SapientWolf]

They've really got him by the ball here. Hopefully that shower was worth all the trouble.

 

[AdventureRacing]

Doping science is almost always one step ahead of detection science. Once a dopant is found, a test needs to be developed that can detect it by direct means, surrogate markers, etc, qualified, then validated and even then, false positives crop up But a test can't be developed until the dopant and/or its effects are known.

Anyone who thinks an athlete can competitively complete the tour de france (or any of the other grand tours..giro and vuelta) on just gatorade, pasta, and a multivitamin is lying to themselves or doesn't know how demanding cycling is.

Doesn't mean that the TdF can't be completed w/o doping...just means that at the competitive level as it stands right now, it's more difficult to believe that top athletes are NOT doping.

They should really listen to someone like you who has competed in the TdF at a competitive level.

Your post stinks of elitism and really as far as i'm concerned it's BS.

I agree with KHarvey as well, you haven't actually provided any evidence above "well of course he's cheating, that's obvious!".

 

[bjaelke]

It's so sad that all the cycling news posted here seems to be about Armstrong :/.

I urge you to make a cycling thread. The season starts tomorrow with Paris-Roubaix

 

[iamblades]

Regardless of whether Lance ever doped or not (I really have no idea what to believe when it comes to pro athletes these days, so I'm just sitting back and enjoying the show, they can shoot themselves in the ass with horse testosterone on live TV for all I care), it's hard to argue that the anti doping agencies have acted in a fair or impartial manner.

Even if the guy is dirty, it doesn't give them justification to leak every little detail to the press, to dig up ancient B samples, to try and ban him on some bullshit technicality like this, etc.

I personally can not wait for gene doping and cybernetic implants myself. I want to see an 8 second 100 meters and a 40 mile hour record, and a 10 meter long jump. I want to see a basketball player with a 60 inch vertical jump and a pitcher with a 115 mph fastball.

:lol :lol

 

[rykomatsu]

They should really listen to someone like you who has competed in the TdF at a competitive level.

Your post stinks of elitism and really as far as i'm concerned it's BS.

I agree with KHarvey as well, you haven't actually provided any evidence above "well of course he's cheating, that's obvious!".

I went up to cat 3 racing (couldn't hack it beyond that and quit...only amassed 15pts of 60 required to move up in 12months). Cat 5 and cat 4 were from what I could tell, devoid of doping but for people that could afford it and wanted to seriously move into cat 2, cat 1 (and subsequently pro beyond that), it wasn't unusual or uncommon for people to start dipping into doping around the cat 3 level. Hell, a friend of mine managed to get his hands on EPO when we were both training at the cat 3 level (dunno if he used it as he was debating the ethical ramifications of using it and what not).

Granted, I can only extrapolate what goes on from my experience as well as what I've observed. From that, though, it's far more difficult to believe that top athletes aren't doping than to believe that they're clean. That's not to say they should be guilty until proven innocent and be prevented from racing. The whole Operation Puerto and removal of riders suspected (but not proven guilty or innocent) of doping from TdF was pretty shady and I don't think the notion of guilty until proven innocent would have stood had it been in the US, though the removals came with the agreements from the team managements. But that doesn't mean one's not allowed to believe they're innocent or guilty.

Doping detection requires knowledge of the dopant or what potential effects the dopant has. Trying to detect an unknown that's metabolized from something that's known isn't easy at all. Trying to detect something that isn't known at all though? You can run a biological sample through a mass spec and potentially find something that doesn't belong there based on mass, but without more elaborate time consuming experiments, the unknown still for the most part remains an unknown. Trying to develop an accurate and robust way to determine if a dopant is being used by way of surrogate marker is also difficult. To qualify and validate a protocol to determine if an athlete's been doping is time consuming and implementation of a compliance protocol is a pain in the ass. Chain of custody protocols, sample handling protocols, storage protocols, etc. To unambiguously be able to say "this athlete is guilty of doping" isn't as easy as one might think. The general acceptance criteria for bioanalytical work which is what detection science for doping would fall under, atleast in the pharmaceutical field considered to be acceptable if the errors fall within +/-10~15%. Add to that, the scrutiny that the entire procedure from sampling all the way to data reporting can comes under, it's more astonishing that people can be found guilty imho for certain dopants. I do a similar line of work in the pharma field and I'm all too familiar with how easily an assay can be botched...bureaucratically, experimentally, and logistically.

Also, go back and read again. I never said he (or any athlete at that level) is cheating; just that I find it difficult to believe. Doesn't mean I won't give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Pachael]

This situation isn't helped with Floyd Landis' (what, no one remembers him?) being convicted of illegal drug usage on the TdF where he 'won' and if I remember right used to be in the same team that Armstrong was in.

Certain groups have been trying to catch Armstrong for a while and Landis' disgrace definitely gave them a second wind.

As for why Armstrong's been talked about more than the others, well from the other top runners (Contador, Sastre, Evans etc) there's not much to talk about eh?

 

[cybamerc]

All of the winners after Indurain except for Sastre last year have either been convicted of using doping, have since admitted using doping or been linked to Operación Puerto. Certainly there are rumors about Indurain as well. And many riders before him. Bjarne Riis was never tested positive but last admitted to have been using EPO when he was an active rider - including the year he won the tour.

Anyone thinking Armstrong was clean when he dominated the tour is naive. That doesn't mean it's ok to treat him like this however. You should be innocent until proven guilty.

As for why the team with the biggest budget doesn't always win the tour that's easily explained. Many times doping is paid for by the riders themselves. In cycling noone made more money than Armstrong.

 

[SpoonyBard]

Hmm... I hope they will offically take his previous wins away and give him a lifetime ban. This is ridicculous. I know he's not the only one using EPO, but others are smart enough to keep a lower profile.

 

[Ashhong]

Because the French do not want to loose again to an American and want to discredit his past achievements, they have it out for him. It is like Cool Runnings, except with white people and bikes.
Edit: This was his 24th test.

:lol got a laugh out of me. love that movie

 

[guidop]

Ullrich was never banned. He was hounded by German authorities following a solid link to Operation Puerto until he packed up and retired, even though he was never charged.

Wasn't he banned for using ecstasy? Thats why he was dumped by T-mobile the first time

 

[Cyan]

Hmm... I hope they will offically take his previous wins away and give him a lifetime ban. This is ridicculous. I know he's not the only one using EPO, but others are smart enough to keep a lower profile.

Seriously! So much hubris--I mean, if someone came in to audit you at your job, would you run off and take a shower?

Pssh. Like we don't know he did it so the guy would think he was clean.

 

[Ptaaty]

If my job meant I got absolutely filthy and I just got back and it would take quite some time to verify the auditor was even legit...yes I would take a shower.

Do you think Armstrong has a super duper 10 minute mega dialysis machine in his shower? Complete with his own instant Bosley hair club for men instant total body micro grafts, complete with new curly pubes?

Armstong may have done illegal things in the past, maybe even now, but when the test involves blood, urine, and hair, I fail to see what could happen in the span of a shower to knock out all 3....

 

[Karakand]

I think that's a good reason, would you like me if i moved to USA and refused to use english?

People call you racist if you don't tolerate it.

 

[Blimblim]

Man, I love how some people here "hate the frogs", as if we were all one single entity, seemingly hell-bent on destroying the US of A one person at a time.

 

[rykomatsu]

Armstong may have done illegal things in the past, maybe even now, but when the test involves blood, urine, and hair, I fail to see what could happen in the span of a shower to knock out all 3....

Urine only for this test most likely....atleast doping control officers for USADA typically only collect urine.

 

[Funky Papa]

Man, I love how some people here "hate the frogs", as if we were all one single entity, seemingly hell-bent on destroying the US of A one person at a time.

I wanted to say something, but I'm tired of denouncing GAF's well stablished francophobia. I wish I could replace "frogs" with "ragheads", "spics", "beaners", "kikes" or "chinks" just to see the reactions.

And I speak as a Spaniard who takes great pleasure in making fun of both French and British people.

 

[KHarvey16]

Urine only for this test most likely....atleast doping control officers for USADA typically only collect urine.

They collected all three.

 

[subrock]

I urge you to make a cycling thread. The season starts tomorrow with Paris-Roubaix

+1

anyone know if there is a streaming version of Paris-roubaix with phil liggett's soothing voice on it tonight? versus or elsewhere?

 

[Tarazet]

Armstrong says AFLD is dropping its case. No sanctions. Shower-gate is over.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr24news3

 

[andycapps]

Armstrong says AFLD is dropping its case. No sanctions. Shower-gate is over.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr24news3

They should know better than to mess around with him by now. Give it another year, they'll find something else.

 

[Tarazet]

They should know better than to mess around with him by now. Give it another year, they'll find something else.

It doesn't even break his stride at this point. So many other athletes would have cracked under the pressure they put Armstrong under. I'm sure he's wondering why he came out of retirement for this. :lol

Also, I think it's hilarious how he makes all his major announcements by Twitter.

 

[ShinHayase]

It's interesting to see how people blindly believe national heroes cannot go wrong.

Regardless of this story.

Scary really.

 

[Operations]

It's interesting to see how people blindly believe national heroes cannot go wrong.

Regardless of this story.

Scary really.

What's so scary and blinded about expecting GENUINE evidence that he's doping?

 

[mckmas8808]

It's interesting to see how people blindly believe national heroes cannot go wrong.

Regardless of this story.

Scary really.

You're mad that it dropped aren't you?

 

[Chumly]

It's interesting to see how people blindly believe national heroes cannot go wrong.

Regardless of this story.

Scary really.

Actually you know whats REALLY scary?

That people want to BLINDLY prosecute people without evidence of wrongdoing just because they dont like someone.

THATS scary.

 

[Brannon]

Another day, another Lance witch hunt. He most likely isn't going to win this one, so why even go through this dance? Just let him do his thing so he can help draw more US eyes and dollars to the sport.

Damn.

 

[WinFonda]

For these transgressions, I vote we move to rename the competition 'Tour De Lance' and we should give Mr. Armstrong kingly authority over our new colony, Lance-A-Lot (Formerly France)

All in favor?