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Latency issue regarding ALL HDTVs (owners respond!)

L

Leguna

Banned
Is this true?

...Indeed. There was a distinct lag between button-press and onscreen-response. In other words, when I pressed the JUMP button, Mario JUMPED about ¼ second later. At this moment I turned to my girl and said in a monotone voice, “What did you do to my TV?!” She responded quickly, “I didn’t do anything - I pushed power on the TV remote, put in Animal Crossing, turned on the Nintendo, and sat down.” I looked back at my new TV and stared for a long, long moment. I grabbed the remote control and went through all the video options and made sure everything was correct. I reset the Nintendo and went into the Gamecube setup screen to check for any video options, which there weren’t any. Again, I fired-up Animal Crossing… Mr. Resetti popped up!! After dealing with him, I quickly played SMB again - same problem as before: Mario’s jump response was just slightly after I pressed the jump button. It was at this point that I began to notice that the sound was slightly off as well. I proceeded through levels 1-1 and 1-2 and, I sucked. I was missing ? blocks, falling off ledges and dying, getting hit by goombas - it was disgraceful! I turned off the TV, the Nintendo, and pulled the plugs from the wall.
Click to expand...

After my NES failed to be immune to the HDTV latency problem, I vigorously researched the issue. Apparently, “Latency” is the dirty little secret of HDTV. It is a well know and well documented problem that affects all formats of HDTV: DLP, LCD, Plasma, LCoS, and even CRT. The vast majority of HDTV users experience latency while trying to sync up video with sound; essentially, what you see onscreen falls behind what you hear from the speakers. As a solution for home theater latency issues, several companies offer devices that off-set the sound so-as-to sync up audio/video. But no such device can be used to fix the Videogame/HDTV latency problem. The problem occurs during the process of video “upconversion” and there is NO real-time permanent solution. Not yet.
Click to expand...

Link to entire article
 
This is a well known issue - most people experience it more prominantly in DLP sets, but since it's an issue concerning the latency caused by the scaler hardware it is really applicable to all sets that would need to scale any video source. So if you play something with a 1:1 pixel mapping on the screen you should be fine (that is, if you have a 720p native TV make sure you're feeding it a 720p signal).
 
I use a Sony CRT HDTV and have experienced no lag of any sort with any signal. I would have noticed this immediately.

I'm sure this problem does exist on SOME sets, however (and is probably related to the scaler). There is some serious lag when using dscaler on the PC, for instance, so it isn't hard to believe that a built-in hardware scaler of low quality might also lag a bit.
 
I have not seen the latency issue on my DLP set, but i have seen the image break for a split second. It was almost like a line where one half of the image did not match up to the other half, it has only happened while the scene was panning from left to right right to left.
 
I have a four-year-old 53" Sony HDTV and there is zero lag playing 480p games natively, or 480i games via 960i DRC. Anybody who says that all HDTVs lag is a liar or a fool.
 
dark10x said:
I use a Sony CRT HDTV and have experienced no lag of any sort with any signal. I would have noticed this immediately.

I'm sure this problem does exist on SOME sets, however (and is probably related to the scaler). There is some serious lag when using dscaler on the PC, for instance, so it isn't hard to believe that a built-in hardware scaler of low quality might also lag a bit.
Click to expand...

Yeah, well - this guy is acting like it's some dirty little secret for HDTV in general. That's bub-kiss. Just because he has POS TV or it isn't functioning properly, doesn't mean that it's HDTV's dirty little secret.

If this was a real issue, we would be seeing it discussed in professional venues. Not just some blog.

I googled "HDTV latency" and the first three results were all related to that guys blog.

The rest after that didn't appear to have anything to do with his "conclusions".
 
TO ALL:
Read what teiresias said, I believe it is true across the board with all HDTVs:
This is a well known issue - most people experience it more prominantly in DLP sets, but since it's an issue concerning the latency caused by the scaler hardware it is really applicable to all sets that would need to scale any video source. So if you play something with a 1:1 pixel mapping on the screen you should be fine (that is, if you have a 720p native TV make sure you're feeding it a 720p signal).
Click to expand...
 
RoH said:
I have not seen the latency issue on my DLP set, but i have seen the image break for a split second. It was almost like a line where one half of the image did not match up to the other half, it has only happened while the scene was panning from left to right right to left.
Click to expand...

That sounds like image tearing and is very common in games that do not use vsync and really has nothing to do with your tv.
 
I don't have any of those issues on my Pannny LCD. At first i had some adjustment period to the LCD tech....but now it's perfect. It's kinda like watching 4:3 on a widescreen, alot of people hate the stretch for me it's normal, don't even notice it.

DCX
 
1. Latency is a real issue for *some* sets
2. It is not surprising he is complaining about a Samsung DLP
3. Blanket-shouting at all HD sets was a bad move
4. He says something not in the quote that should be obvious for any buyer: test it out.
 
Read what teiresias said, I believe it is true across the board with all HDTVs:
Click to expand...
I said the same, it's related to the scalers...but not every TV has a shit scaler (most don't, really). I've used plenty of 480i games on my set and none of them suffer from lag.

It does not effect all TVs, but it can effect some. That's the bottom line.
 
I use a Sony CRT HDTV and have experienced no lag of any sort with any signal. I would have noticed this immediately.
Click to expand...
I can confirm this with absolute certainty for the TV that he has - I have the same TV, just smaller. No matter what scaler/deinterlacer option I tried, no matter what input (480i/480p/720p/1080i) there was no lag of any kind at all.

I did her that this problem plagues some DLPs, and maybe even other kinds of TVs though.
 
dark10x said:
I said the same, it's related to the scalers...but not every TV has a shit scaler (most don't, really). I've used plenty of 480i games on my set and none of them suffer from lag.

It does not effect all TVs, but it can effect some. That's the bottom line.
Click to expand...

Hence the fact that it's not HDTV's dirty little secret.
 
I have no latency issues with my Samsung SlimFit CRT HDTV. The only time I've experienced similar problems was using the TV out on my laptop to try to play a NES emulator via S-Video. And I'm not sure that it wasn't the TV out causing the latency there.

I've had lip sync issues with Discovery HD, but that's the only HD channel that has that problem.

Seriously, no modern HDTV has serious latency issues. The ones that do have a "game mode" that puts the scaler in "quick & dirty" mode.

Nathan
 
teiresias said:
This is a well known issue - most people experience it more prominantly in DLP sets, but since it's an issue concerning the latency caused by the scaler hardware it is really applicable to all sets that would need to scale any video source. So if you play something with a 1:1 pixel mapping on the screen you should be fine (that is, if you have a 720p native TV make sure you're feeding it a 720p signal).
Click to expand...

exactly.
 
I have a bargain basement Sanyo 32in CRT HDTV here. Dreamcast, PSOne, PS2, Xbox, Gamecube all tested and played. Like, I play VF4 on this thing.

*I think I would notice latecy in VF4*. Y'know, like, the game where you play down to the frame.
 
Yes, I should have mentioned that the quality of the internal scaler is important, because a good implementation minimizes the latency. The fact that some scalers are so bad as to add so much latency into the already latency-filled world of home audio/video is really sad.

I do find it odd that these issues only seem to appear in video games as well, and apparently only with delay associated with controller input. If the latency in a particular scaler were so bad I'd assume you'd also have syncing issues between the picture and audio as well, but you rarely here anyone say anything about this in reference to the videogame lag, and this should also manifest itself in any other source as well, I'm just not sure why you don't here complaints about this for other video sources (DVD players) - and why it's necessary for some TV's to supply a "game mode" that disables the scaler completely.

EDIT: Just noticed the quote in the original post does mention the sound delay. I still find it odd that the scalers only seem to exhibit this behavior with videogame sources though.
 
Leguna said:
TO ALL:
Read what teiresias said, I believe it is true across the board with all HDTVs:
Click to expand...
Its not true across the board both my tvs have never lagged on any console on any resolution and i am a huge fighting game player where frames count - especially on capcom 2ders
 
Shompola said:
That sounds like image tearing and is very common in games that do not use vsync and really has nothing to do with your tv.
Click to expand...

I have seen it happen while not playing any games aswell.
 
I've had only one problem with image tearing on my Samsung 1080i. On my King of the Hill DVD, there was a scene where the top third or so of the screen did not match the other 2/3s. Only at this one scene.

Everything else has worked extremely well for it. I didn't know it was that common of a problem.
 
teiresias said:
Yes, I should have mentioned that the quality of the internal scaler is important, because a good implementation minimizes the latency. The fact that some scalers are so bad as to add so much latency into the already latency-filled world of home audio/video is really sad.

I do find it odd that these issues only seem to appear in video games as well, and apparently only with delay associated with controller input. If the latency in a particular scaler were so bad I'd assume you'd also have syncing issues between the picture and audio as well, but you rarely here anyone say anything about this in reference to the videogame lag, and this should also manifest itself in any other source as well, I'm just not sure why you don't here complaints about this for other video sources (DVD players) - and why it's necessary for some TV's to supply a "game mode" that disables the scaler completely.

EDIT: Just noticed the quote in the original post does mention the sound delay. I still find it odd that the scalers only seem to exhibit this behavior with videogame sources though.
Click to expand...
Its more noticeable in videogames because they are the only medium with user-affected output. You dont notice if the display is lagging on movies and such because you have nothing to compare the delay with.

Using SMB as an example, you press a button and expect results immediately. When this doesnt happen, you notice the delay quite a bit. I have this problem occassionally with my surround sound setup. I know its not the most expensive system, but using things such as my gamecube, running in Dolby Prologic, there are times where i can tell the sound is lagging slightly behind the picture while it tries to do the conversion. Anything native to the unit, such as the dolby digital works fine. I noticed this problem quite often while working at Sears and Circuit city, where many of the HD displays would often lag just a split second behind others.

You can't expect an upconversion of that high a bitrate/resolution/soundsampe/etc to be instantaneous 100% of the time, as that takes quite a bit of processing power. Some tvs just do it better than others.
 
Anyone who says there is no lag at all is wrong. All HDTVs have lag, it's just that on most good ones the lag is so tiny 99% of the people can't percieve them. Like how some people can't even see the difference between 30 & 60fps.

I've done tests with extremely timing intensive games on my CRT HDTV and a lag does exist at less than 10 ms. It won't effect most games but it is slightly noticeable in a few things.

Also you can't really notice lag with analogue sticks because analogue is already a clumsy precision tool. Only by tiny quick taps on the d-pad or quick button presses wll you be able to notice small amounts of lag.

I'm guessing 720p/1080i games next gen won't have any lag at all as long as you run them at their native resolution on your HDTV. Since there would be zero conversion in that case there shouldn't be any lag.
 
If your aren't 1:1, and the scalar sucks ... then this certainly is NOT bullshit.

Why do you think many receivers and pre-amps offer audio delays? It's to fix the synch issues from a slow scalar.
 
Ristamar said:
It was a rather prominent topic on the AVS forums, and it seemed to affect a lot of the posters over there. Not all of them had Samsung DLPs (though the Samsungs seemed to be the worst of the lot).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=443179&page=1&pp=20
Click to expand...
Scaling/"upconversion" does introduce some lag -- obviously, anytime you need to process an image before displaying it, that will introduce at least a minimal amount of lag.

I see it mostly in audio/video synch problems on DVD playback, not so much on games. If you use an Xbox you should not have any issues at all since it scales to 720p/1080i internally.
 
Rhindle said:
I see it mostly in audio/video synch problems on DVD playback, not so much on games. If you use an Xbox you should not have any issues at all since it scales to 720p/1080i internally.
Click to expand...

Sort of sucks if ya wanna hook up some older systems, though.

It's just dissappointing that a new TV that may cost a few thousand may not be able to properly display SNES games I played 12 years ago. Kinda ridiculous.
 
Scaling/"upconversion" does introduce some lag
Click to expand...

Ever use 960i DRC?

Anyhow, any lag that my Sony gives is orders of magnitude less than the 1/4 second that this guy describes. That's a 15-frame (or 15-field interlaced) lag!
 
Get a NES emulator, hook up your PC to your TV, run at native TV resolution, run NES emulator with Mario; latency problem solved.

Or just keep a crappy set handy for older systems.
 
Did the guy try an Xbox? Trying out a better console might help.

ZING! heheh j/k

Yeah this is a problem with some TVs and it has to do with ANY process the TV does to "fix" the picture.

There are some TVs (Toshibas I think) that try to clean the picture so if you had a cable signal, it would remove the noise and clean things out. It's doing some processing on the image and takes some time to do, adding a slight delay.

I tried clicking the link to read the article but it fudges up on me. I'm wondering if he's tried different connections and such. His rational for audio syncing sounds really retarded to me. There are issues with that in TVs, and in Home Theatre recievers, but his explanation was off the wall.
 
This problem does exist, as my friend (one of the lucky HDTV winners from Microsoft GDC's conference) can testify too. He's an Amplitude genius and since switching his TVs for MS's shiny offer, he's been unable to effectively play Amplitude at the highest difficultly anymore due to the lag (miniscule, but for extremely time-sensitive games quite important).
 
I'm always amused by people who are somehow surprised that the 50" POS they got for half the price of a comparable major brand set isn't as good. We'll probably see a lot of complaints about the cheapo Chinese LCD sets flooding the market right now as well.
 
RoH said:
I have seen it happen while not playing any games aswell.
Click to expand...

Either way it is the source doing that and not necessary your tv. For whatever reason some frames are lagging in that instant shot.
 
Leguna said:
TO ALL:
Read what teiresias said, I believe it is true across the board with all HDTVs:
Click to expand...

This is a well known issue - most people experience it more prominantly in DLP sets, but since it's an issue concerning the latency caused by the scaler hardware it is really applicable to all sets that would need to scale any video source. So if you play something with a 1:1 pixel mapping on the screen you should be fine (that is, if you have a 720p native TV make sure you're feeding it a 720p signal).
Click to expand...

Actually, this info is not quite right. In another thread long time ago, we figured out the lag in Samsung sets are only present when you plug in the console via interlaced cables. There's absolutely no lag when you play games on Sammy sets via progressive cables.

Basically, Sammy's deinterlacer/line doubler is what causes the lag, not the scaler.
 
Aye, I play Mario with my friggin' old NES on my Hitachi LCD HDTV and there is no input lag at all... like zero, I tested it myself. As soon as that button went down, mario jumped baby.
 
teiresias said:
Just noticed the quote in the original post does mention the sound delay. I still find it odd that the scalers only seem to exhibit this behavior with videogame sources though.
Click to expand...
Actually that's perfectly normal - in a videogame the user expects instant response, so any lag between input and result on screen will be obvious (and impossible to hide).
In playing back video/audio stream, the delay will only appear at the start of the playback - so all you need to do is buffer a bit of data at that point, and you've eliminated the problem.

Eg. if first video frame lags by 17ms, you buffer&defer the sound playback for the same time, and they are back in sync.

That said, a good scaler should have latency measured in microseconds, or about 100times below human eye treshold.
 
Anyone who says there is no lag at all is wrong. All HDTVs have lag, it's just that on most good ones the lag is so tiny 99% of the people can't percieve them. Like how some people can't even see the difference between 30 & 60fps.

I've done tests with extremely timing intensive games on my CRT HDTV and a lag does exist at less than 10 ms. It won't effect most games but it is slightly noticeable in a few things.
Click to expand...
What CRT HDTV do you have? I have successfully played Amplitude on mine, for example (and I play it pretty good, finished everything on highest difficulty) without noticing any lag whatsoever. There's no reason for a scaler or deinterlacer to introduce any lag if it can perform it's operation fast enough. Saying that it's comparable to 30/60FPS difference is a huge stretch - well maybe it's not on some TVs, I can't say.
 
Fafalada said:
Actually that's perfectly normal - in a videogame the user expects instant response, so any lag between input and result on screen will be obvious (and impossible to hide).
In playing back video/audio stream, the delay will only appear at the start of the playback - so all you need to do is buffer a bit of data at that point, and you've eliminated the problem.

Eg. if first video frame lags by 17ms, you buffer&defer the sound playback for the same time, and they are back in sync.

That said, a good scaler should have latency measured in microseconds, or about 100times below human eye treshold.
Click to expand...
Yup. That's also the reason why most A/R receivers now have a delay mode to compensate the lag a projector can add to the video.
My DLP TV (Sagem Axium HD-D45) has no lag I could detect (480i / 480p / 720p)
 
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