Laura Fryer - Navigating Toxic Positivity - a remminder about Concord's failure
winjer
Member
You didn't watch the essay, didn't you?
LectureMaster
Has Man Musk
Okay, now I have watched the full video. I think she gives very sincere advice to the individual who asked the question.
But her approach requires a conscious mind that is constantly introspecting and reflecting about one's work and career.
This is way beyond what people who made Concord could do, those people simply didn't have such capability.
Even if there were people who did realize things weren't all good, they were afraid to bring feedback because of the fear of getting cancelled and losing job.
There is simply no solution for that studio.
But her approach requires a conscious mind that is constantly introspecting and reflecting about one's work and career.
This is way beyond what people who made Concord could do, those people simply didn't have such capability.
Even if there were people who did realize things weren't all good, they were afraid to bring feedback because of the fear of getting cancelled and losing job.
There is simply no solution for that studio.
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John Bilbo
Member
Is toxic positivity the same as lying?
hemo memo
You can't die before your death
"Toxic positivity" is an excellent description.
Also, Concord is a fantastic example of marketing myopia:
- Shortsightedness
- Product-focused, not customer-focused
- Missing the point
- Ignoring the competition
It should be included in business books as the first example.
Also, Concord is a fantastic example of marketing myopia:
- Shortsightedness
- Product-focused, not customer-focused
- Missing the point
- Ignoring the competition
It should be included in business books as the first example.
SJRB
Gold Member
Pretty much. Avoiding conflict by lying or otherwise ignoring issues via fake positive feedback.
"That is a great idea" when it clearly isn't. "This character looks awesome" when it clearly doesn't.
Damigos
Member
Why do u say that ? I did last night. The toxic positivity is real and there a game was created for an audience that does not exist
Cyberpunkd
Member
It's being delusional. It's also being incapable of processing negative feedback. You check all the books about management and managing people that were written from all the failures that quit FANG companies and it's always the same: be vague, don't be direct, pomost things by highlighting positives.
Majima Everywhere System
Member
She has a nice video, but I'm sure Concorde could have succeeded with a different skin. There is a character that wears a bucket on their head.
Loboxxx
Member
The real problem with Concord is Sony. Today's Sony is making risky moves in the eyes of their customers, prioritizing profitability over the brand's good reputation.
The ridiculous number of remasters priced at €10, which could've just been simple patches (like TLOU, Spiderman, etc.), and the completely unnecessary remakes like Until Dawn, are damaging the IPs along the way.
They're pushing so hard for live service games, forcing their best teams to make one, losing talent, time, and focus in the process. Then they release a PS5 Pro without basic things like a stand or a disc drive, seriously?
Spending 400 million on a game as simple as Concord, when your competitors are offering better and free games in this genre, is absurd and concerning. It shows arrogance and a disconnect from the market and what your customers actually want.
Chances are Concord has suffered from "positive toxicity" in its development, especially in the artistic side, just like many other games. But the real issue lies with the ones footing the bill and commissioning the project: Sony.
The ridiculous number of remasters priced at €10, which could've just been simple patches (like TLOU, Spiderman, etc.), and the completely unnecessary remakes like Until Dawn, are damaging the IPs along the way.
They're pushing so hard for live service games, forcing their best teams to make one, losing talent, time, and focus in the process. Then they release a PS5 Pro without basic things like a stand or a disc drive, seriously?
Spending 400 million on a game as simple as Concord, when your competitors are offering better and free games in this genre, is absurd and concerning. It shows arrogance and a disconnect from the market and what your customers actually want.
Chances are Concord has suffered from "positive toxicity" in its development, especially in the artistic side, just like many other games. But the real issue lies with the ones footing the bill and commissioning the project: Sony.
She says this right at the beginning but unfortunately, if you do give feedback that is needed but not what they want, then you will be looked at as "sexist" "transphobic" "racist" and whatever else they want to throw at you.
If I worked at Ubisoft and said "I think the male lead should be Japanese instead of Black, as the game is set in feudal Japan and we have many historical Japanese Samurai to choose from", I would probably be called a racist and be called to HR and probably lose my job.
Take Dragon Age Veilguard as an example. I personally think having mastectomy scars as an appearance option and calling them "top surgery scars" is extremely offensive, but if I said that at the development studio meeting, do you think my feedback would be accepted and validated by staff, or would I be called transphobic and be told to leave?
Bernardougf
Member
This cannot be real ... Im not fallowing this game development because I never had interest in dragon age ... so Im genuinely shocked if this is indeed a thing.
In a way, it's like an eco chamber, in this case devs lie to themselves and dismiss any criticism
PeteBull
Member
Its so woke it makes me puke every time we get new info about it, and im core base/veteran of DA series who bought ps4 copy of DA:I at launch and enjoyed whole 120h of playtime in it, in comparision to that game(back then i would give it solid 8/10) this new purple sequel feels maybe 2 or 3/10 aka not even worth buying at big discount simply coz playing it isnt worth the time for genre/series core fan, thats how bad it is.
Angry_Megalodon
Member
This is wrong. The project was already laid out when Sony bought it. Firewalk was a mistake from conception. The people of that studio are unable to do something different and that has nothing to do with Sony.
POKEYCLYDE
Member
Even after Concord failed spectacularly, you have game journalists and development team members DEFENDING their choices.
Even when there is mass concensus among the gaming community about why the game failed... the devs can't take accountability.
It's that kind of delusion that makes feedback and critique impossible.
Even when there is mass concensus among the gaming community about why the game failed... the devs can't take accountability.
It's that kind of delusion that makes feedback and critique impossible.
bigdad2007
Member
Toxic positivity is for sure a thing in the Hollywood/LA area in particular and that is where the AAA video game industry tries to align itself with.
I was listening to a comedy podcast where one of the guests was a Hollywood writer and they were taking audience questions. The question was "my friends rap really sucks and I have a radio show. He wants me to play his stuff how do I tell him he is really bad?"
The Hollywood guy on the podcast basically said you can't shit on your friends stuff. He was like "just support him because you don't know it's bad it might be good the audience will decide". He said he has had friends bring scripts to him or show him movies and he never tells them it's bad. Even when they are not funny at all.
This is how so much shit media and video games get made. There is an entire generation of people that has grown up in an environment where no one ever challenged a single thought they ever had.
I was listening to a comedy podcast where one of the guests was a Hollywood writer and they were taking audience questions. The question was "my friends rap really sucks and I have a radio show. He wants me to play his stuff how do I tell him he is really bad?"
The Hollywood guy on the podcast basically said you can't shit on your friends stuff. He was like "just support him because you don't know it's bad it might be good the audience will decide". He said he has had friends bring scripts to him or show him movies and he never tells them it's bad. Even when they are not funny at all.
This is how so much shit media and video games get made. There is an entire generation of people that has grown up in an environment where no one ever challenged a single thought they ever had.
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ComputerBlue
Member
Seems like constructive feedback has been replaced with toxic positivity.
MALpractice311
Member
That may be true, but Sony also believed in Concord and Firewalk so much that they bought the studio.
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Trilobit
Absolutely Cozy
The first thing I learned when I was at a media orientated school program was that we needed to unlearn what school teachers had taught us until that day: That you can't give criticism. That had been so ingrained in us, but the teachers wanted us to understand how important constructive criticism is when you're doing various media projects.
I feel like these people who instantly jump into game development haven't been taught that and so they start to foster a "walking on eggshells" kind of culture that led to the horrendous results of Concord. I am honestly baffled that no nonsense businessman at Sony looked at this stuff and pulled the breaks instantly. When you're dealing with artists and talent you of course need to understand that they might have a different sensitivity than your local car mechanics, but you still need to be ready to be harsh, otherwise you're a poor leader and won't do them any favours.
There was even talk afterwards that some of the people working on the game wanted to quit the industry completely because of the game's reception and it was probably harsher than any critique from their bosses or colleagues would have been. It stings for a bit, but then you see their point of view and grow as a person and improve your own work.
For crying out loud, even Kyle Bosman on Youtube was dishing out critique against it well before release and he's like the nicest guy on that site.
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Angry_Megalodon
Member
OW designs are great, Concord's are abysmal. There's no comparison.
Sure, but claiming that Concord would be different without Sony is wrong. That studio is comprised of woke ex-Bungies and they can't produce other than shit. Since Hermen loves shit for breakfast, they were destined to each other.
POKEYCLYDE
Member
Ehhhh, Marvel Rivals is almost a one to one clone of Overwatch and it's found success. Sure, Overwatch can be considered woke... but I want to fuck a lot of Overwatch's characters. Overwatch's "wokeness" doesn't get in the way of it's design. Concord's did.
Shake Your Rump
Banned
This woman consistently makes thought-provoking videos. It's like finding a silver dollar in the YouTube ocean of trash. Good stuff.
oh i forgot about marvel.
Wildebeest
Member
No, it's common ignorance. If someone says something negative that you don't want to hear, you ignore them or ostracise them.
John Bilbo
Member
Is the negative thing you don't want to hear true?
Wildebeest
Member
That isn't the point. You put zero serious effort into working out if it is true or not, and just label the person bringing it forward as a traitor or disruptive person.
POKEYCLYDE
Member
That's the problem. If you said you wanted to make the Concord characters more attractive, you could be met with "What's unattractive about XYZ character?" Now you're fat phobic or transphobic or racist or sexist (depending on the character you want to improve).
Lizzo might be the standard of beauty the devs want to live up to. You could have focus groups critique the designs, unburdening individual developers from having to speak out and risk being ostracized.
However this assumes these developers can drop their ego, stop designing based on an agenda and make an appealing product for a consumer base they say they hate.
Loboxxx
Member
Firewalk is to blame for making a game as a generic service, but Sony is to blame for the huge failure that was Concord.
If Concord had cost 35 million, it would be a stumble for Sony like Destruction AllStars was, but by buying the studio in 2023 and spending 400 million on the project, yes, Sony turned a stumble into one of the biggest failures in its history.
Gamerfan81
Member
Sounds like Western studios are run like Resetera. Don't forget if you give this kind of feedback, there's a good chance the offended members will put your name and face on the internet as some raging bigot that's hard to work with, ruining your reputation.
Fake
Member
Pretty much. Not even listening to the feedback that point out bugs and crashs.
Is kinda insane sittuation. Is like kids putting fingers into their ears.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
The reality I suspect is pretty simple; a lot of people in the industry have vastly overestimated the value of inserting progressive and woke elements, and grossly underestimated the strength of the pushback from the other side of the aisle.
Because here's the thing; Concord, Star Wars, Dustborn etc. Aren't failing just because there are a lot of people pushing back based on what they feel to be intrusive politicking, its mainly because they aren't appealing/selling to the neutrals and ResetEra types either!
Similarly it needs to be recognized that giving people a thing they actually want, easily trumps (no pun intended) any sort of politically motivated boycotting like that deployed against Hogwart's and Kingdom Come.
Its really that simple.
Because here's the thing; Concord, Star Wars, Dustborn etc. Aren't failing just because there are a lot of people pushing back based on what they feel to be intrusive politicking, its mainly because they aren't appealing/selling to the neutrals and ResetEra types either!
Similarly it needs to be recognized that giving people a thing they actually want, easily trumps (no pun intended) any sort of politically motivated boycotting like that deployed against Hogwart's and Kingdom Come.
Its really that simple.
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ChorizoPicozo
Member
its crazy that the toxic positivity is also happening outside the Studio and Publisher.
places like retardera, along with "personalities" in gaming media aligned with the agenda, ignore the issue and blame "the gamer." Even people in media who do not necessarily align ideologically can't say anything for fear of being canceled.
fortunately the push back is real and most importantly the flops keep coming.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
FFS can we please let this game die already? It came out, it died, the end. Doesn't Astro Bot have new content coming? Didn't Spiderman 2 just get a PC port announced?
There's a lot more going on in PlayStation news, what's the point in pissing on the corpse of Concord?
I will say, this is especially true. ResetERA had way more people jumping in to talk about Concord than, y'know, actually play it. Guess $40 was too much for them.
But they also didn't show up for Dustborn, or Unknown 9 most recently. Places like ResetERA talk a big game about being progressive but they don't put their money where their mouth is. I suspect many of them only care about progressivism WRT big, brand-name IPs. It's why so many of them hyper-focus on LGBT+ & ethnic diversity in the MCU and Star Wars, rather than supporting any number of the smaller indie films & shows already out there with a focus on that stuff already.
It's why I call these type of people "corpogressives", because their progressivism is directly tied to corporatocracy. They align their progressive values to products from large, multinational mainstream corporations, and ironically just give those corporations more power & control over media & pop culture. But these corporatocracy-minded progressives are so shallow, they've been deluded to think that their values only matter if they're on display in the biggest, most mainstream work, and accepted by everyone. That's why they focus their efforts on the biggest franchises and IP.
There's a lot more going on in PlayStation news, what's the point in pissing on the corpse of Concord?
I will say, this is especially true. ResetERA had way more people jumping in to talk about Concord than, y'know, actually play it. Guess $40 was too much for them.
But they also didn't show up for Dustborn, or Unknown 9 most recently. Places like ResetERA talk a big game about being progressive but they don't put their money where their mouth is. I suspect many of them only care about progressivism WRT big, brand-name IPs. It's why so many of them hyper-focus on LGBT+ & ethnic diversity in the MCU and Star Wars, rather than supporting any number of the smaller indie films & shows already out there with a focus on that stuff already.
It's why I call these type of people "corpogressives", because their progressivism is directly tied to corporatocracy. They align their progressive values to products from large, multinational mainstream corporations, and ironically just give those corporations more power & control over media & pop culture. But these corporatocracy-minded progressives are so shallow, they've been deluded to think that their values only matter if they're on display in the biggest, most mainstream work, and accepted by everyone. That's why they focus their efforts on the biggest franchises and IP.
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Kacho
Member
Nope. Biggest flop of the gaming industry. Gonna be mentioned and discussed for the rest of time.
Shits_McGiggles
Member
Toxic Positivity is such a bullshit corporate-speak way of saying "employees are too afraid to say anything because their supervisors will punish them severely."
It's just a word to spin the insanely oppressive atmosphere into an innocent action by the leadership.
"Well, we are just so gosh darn optimistic about our game that we don't want any Negative Nancys ruining how great our team cohesion is!"
It's just a word to spin the insanely oppressive atmosphere into an innocent action by the leadership.
"Well, we are just so gosh darn optimistic about our game that we don't want any Negative Nancys ruining how great our team cohesion is!"
Angry_Megalodon
Member
The studio is still alive and kicking. This corpse is still twitching, it has another life bar that needs to be depleted.
DonkeyPunchJr
World’s Biggest Weeb
Will watch this soon. Her previous video on the subject was very insightful and she provided a lot of examples from her personal experiences in the industry.
Even though we all know, the way to make your game a success is by browbeating your audience and calling them names, shaming them into pretending they like it.
Even though we all know, the way to make your game a success is by browbeating your audience and calling them names, shaming them into pretending they like it.
Kacho
Member
Your avatar is nightmare fuel lol
diffusionx
Gold Member
I don't think the problem is "toxic positivity"as such, I think Sony is being run by very incompetent and out of touch people who don't understand the market, or audience, or have a vision for the future or the present for that matter. So, we are going to see many more Concords as long as these people are in place. Heck we already saw a mini one with the unnecessary and crappy until dawn remake.
DonkeyPunchJr
World’s Biggest Weeb
I guess that phrase hits my ears differently. Seems to me like it's kind of mocking all the loony activists and spineless losers who caused this problem in the first place, by turning one of their favorite phrases against them.
Nostalgic Nightmare
Member
When you create a space so safe no authenticity or criticism can happen, you're doomed from the start.
This is what happens when you work backwards.
This is what happens when you work backwards.
Shits_McGiggles
Member
I've worked in these kinds of environments and I have seen how supervisors, leaders, executives justify their behavior. It's meant to obscure the severity of a leader's fuck-up. It's a phrase used to lessen the gravity of a situation by partially admitting wrongdoing but reframing it in a way that minimizes or outright eliminates the maliciousness of the leader's actions.
Rather than an environment caused by the narcissism of those at the top, it becomes an environment caused by a dedication to maintaining a "healthy" and "inclusive" corporate culture that became too overzealous.
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
Errrr... making good games isn't easy. Therefore, when you set out to do so you will encounter problems... then you will need to find solutions.
Holammer
Member
A lot of blame falls on Sony too, they looked at it and apparently liked what the saw, so much they acquired the studio and project without any known objections.
A normal person looking at pre-production work should have been able to point out a bunch of potential problems early on.
I'm starting a business, maybe call it Chud-vision. To give feedback on movie, tv and game scripts.
A normal person looking at pre-production work should have been able to point out a bunch of potential problems early on.
I'm starting a business, maybe call it Chud-vision. To give feedback on movie, tv and game scripts.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
Interesting that this thread is being recreated a month later...
www.neogaf.com
More people talk about concord than actually played the game...
She's kind of grifting at this point for views.
Laura Fryer: Culture Killed Concord
Former Microsoft Games Studios executive producer Laura Fryer Concord failed because the culture of the studio made them unable or unwilling to see and fix its problems. Sadly, reality-driven game development isn't a new story and confounds many game developers.The Overwatch model was a...
More people talk about concord than actually played the game...
She's kind of grifting at this point for views.
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ZehDon
Member
I agree. I respect Fryer, and her take is absolutely reasonable, and under normal professional circumstances, it's actually the approach I use myself. I always weigh up my worth versus the feedback I feel needs to be expressed and pick my battles. However, the sheer depth of failure in Concord tells me that these weren't normal professional circumstances. Individual developers clearly couldn't apply even a reasonable approach. That's a broken feedback loop, and in my experience, that comes from the top down. Once that kind of culture is in, I've have never seen it ripped out. The broken feedback loop seems to be becoming a mainstay of modern game development.
Good Lord. Accusing Fryer of grifting tells me you either didn't watch both videos - both of which have excellent insight build from her extensive industry experience - or you don't know what a "grift" actually is.Interesting that this thread is being recreated a month later...
Laura Fryer: Culture Killed Concord
Former Microsoft Games Studios executive producer Laura Fryer Concord failed because the culture of the studio made them unable or unwilling to see and fix its problems. Sadly, reality-driven game development isn't a new story and confounds many game developers.The Overwatch model was a...
More people talk about concord than actually played the game...
She's kind of grifting at this point for views.