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[Gaiff]

The amination is not slow and the "limit" is huge. PVP was a pain in the ass back then because people could just munch grass all day.

The animation is fucking slow. Stop that. Can you just stand in front of an enemy and heal at any time? No, you can’t. You have to distract them somehow or be far enough. Otherwise, your healing gets interrupted.

This, just like the limited stamina, completely changes how combat encounters play out. You can’t just pause and heal or use a health potion to instantly replenish your life bar.

That type of healing is paramount in Soulslike and one of the biggest reasons the combat is challenging.

 

[family_guy]

Maybe the demo wasn't balanced. It's not the final product. FromSoft patched Elden Ring alot after release.

 

[kevboard]

Wukong is most definitely an action RPG. Soulslike have more elements than what you claim as well. It’s the combination of all of them that makes a game a Soulslike. Just because it’s missing one element doesn’t make it not one.

Wukong has no RPG elements.
zero, nada, nill, zilch...
God of War 2 has more RPG elements than WuKong, if we were to call either's RPG elements. (simple moveset upgrades typically aren't really seen as RPG elements)

and of course there are more elements, but the ones I listed are the ones that, in combination, made Dark Souls and Demon's Souls unique compared to other RPGs.

other RPGs have slow combat with stamina bars, other RPGs have hard enemies, other RPGs have all elements that Souls games have...
but what non-Souls games didn't have before Demon's Souls is the combination of RPG + Player set Respawn Points + enemies giving currency + loosing currency upon death with one chance to get it back.

that's how they differentiated themselves. they are also Action RPGs, so of course they have typical action RPG elements like stamina bars, magic bars etc.

 

[Gaiff]

Wukong has no RPG elements.
zero, nada, nill, zilch...
God of War 2 has more RPG elements than WuKong, if we were to call either's RPG elements.

and of course there are more elements, but the ones I listed are the ones that, in combination, made Dark Souls and Demon's Souls unique compared to other RPGs.

other RPGs have slow combat with stamina bars, other RPGs have hard enemies, other RPGs have all elements that Souls games have...
but what non-Souls games didn't have before Demon's Souls is the combination of RPG + Player set Respawn Points + enemies giving currency + loosing currency upon death with one chance to get it back.

that's how they differentiated themselves. they are also Action RPGs, so of course they have typical action RPG elements like stamina bars, magic bars etc.

Did you even play BMW? It’s an action RPG through and through with far more RPG elements than God of War 2. Can you make different builds in God of War 2? No, you can’t. Is there character progression in God of War 2? No, there isn’t besides increasing your health and weapons and those aren’t RPG elements. Can you completely change your playstyle based on your build in God of War 2? Once again, no. Do your stats/build make a difference in fights? Can they trivialize a fight or make it much harder? No.

Wukong is an action RPG just like TW3. In fact, the depth of their mechanics are eerily similar.

And what do you even mean "enemies dropping currency"? Enemies drop xp and money in damn near every RPG.

 

[UnrealEck]

I don't know because when I think back to really long and challenging things I've played through in games (WoW raids and brawler's guild max rank ring a bell) were some of the most entertaining things I've had from games. Even though I felt they used a lot of energy (relative to games at least).

 

[kevboard]

Did you even play BMW? It’s an action RPG through and through with far more RPG elements than God of War 2. Can you make different builds in God of War 2? No, you can’t. Is there character progression in God of War 2? No, there isn’t besides increasing your health and weapons and those aren’t RPG elements. Can you completely change your playstyle based on your build in God of War 2? Once again, no.

Wukong is an action RPG just like TW3. In fact, the depth of their mechanics are eerily similar.

saying you can have different builds in WuKong is like saying you can have different builds in Devil May Cry 3 because you can upgrade weapons in different orders, or have different builds in God of War 2018 because the shitty armor you find technically gives you stat boosts, and technically you can unlock some parts of the skill tree first.

in the end, it doesn't matter however, it has no soul retrieval system, and therefore can't be a Souls Like... it could be a 1 to 1 clone of Demon's Souls, only with the soul retrieval removed, and it would instantly be disqualified

 

[yogaflame]

Stellar blade is the best example for me. It is a beautiful game. I enjoyed the game. Combat feels great. It is engaging, fast, tactical and challenging and yet it is not exhausting.

 

[Giallo Corsa]

saying you can have different builds in WuKong is like saying you can have different builds in Devil May Cry 3 because you can upgrade weapons in different orders, or have different builds in God of War 2018 because the shitty armor you find technically gives you stat boosts

C'mon Kev, you're being purposefully obtuse now...

You know exactly what Gaiff is saying but you're just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing now.

And yes, BM Wukong is your typical souls-like ARPG for better or for worse - in contrast to something like Stellar blade which is more character action than pure ARPG like Wukong.

 

[kevboard]

C'mon Kev, you're being purposefully obtuse now...

You know exactly what Gaiff is saying but you're just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing now.

And yes, BM Wukong is your typical souls-like ARPG for better or for worse - in contrast to something like Stellar blade which is more character action than pure ARPG like Wukong.

what makes WuKong souls like but Stellar Blade not?
you are making a 100% arbitrary distinction here.

neither are Souls Likes btw.

 

[touchfuzzy]

I quit as soon as I see it’s another shitty “souslike”. File it next to metroidvania. The two gayest genres that copycat games love. Fuck that noise.

At least these genres still deliver some quality games -- try being someone who likes Stardew Valley. Every indie dev with mild coding experience and mental health issues is making some "live your cozy farm life" game and 98% of them are total crap.

 

[Gaiff]

saying you can have different builds in WuKong is like saying you can have different builds in Devil May Cry 3 because you can upgrade weapons in different orders, or have different builds in God of War 2018 because the shitty armor you find technically gives you stat boosts, and technically you can unlock some parts of the skill tree first

No, it doesn’t. Did you ever play Wukong or not? And yes, the new GOW games heavily lean into RPG elements, though not quite as much as Wukong.

There’s no character building in DMC or NG. Two characters who have competed the game will be identical. Wukong can have two end-game characters with completely different stats, abilities, strengths, and weaknesses. This is where the RPG part comes in. The ability to mold the character into the role you want to play. There’s none of that in DMC, so quit saying pure character action games are RPGs like Wukong. They aren’t.

in the end, it doesn't matter however, it has no soul retrieval system, and therefore can't be a Souls Like... it could be a 1 to 1 clone of Demon's Souls, only with the soul retrieval removed, and it would instantly be disqualified

Nonsense. Wukong has all the hallmarks of Soulslike except for one element.

 

[Giallo Corsa]

what makes WuKong souls like but Stellar Blade not?

you are making a 100% arbitrary distinction here.

neither are Souls Likes btw.

Wukong : actual builds, usual, methodic "lock on to 1 enemy only otherwise you're gonna get wrecked" type of Souls-like gameplay.

Stellar Blade : no actual builds, more free-form actual combat where you don't even need to lock-on to enemies after the first few hours since you can unleash AOE attacks that turn enemies into mush, actually button-mashy.

Btw, never said that Stellar blade is a souls-like, Wukong definitely is though - even though it's more action heavy and energetic than your typical souls-like like Lies of P or.Lords of the Fallen.

 

[Markio128]

I’ve only recently been saying that I have a love/hate relationship with the Souls games. Elden Ring for example, I really enjoy the exploration and for the most part the combat, but I also think that you need to work too hard for the rewards. I’ve just got to the last boss and I’ve genuinely only used 2 swords and 3 armour sets during my 100 hours playtime. I’ve picked up some interesting gear in the late game, but what’s the point of using it, unless I’m to change my entire build and go through the process of levelling up new equipment?

I also think most of the Souls games force players into tedious farming, which I probably spent at least 10% of my time doing in ER.

Personally, I think Bloodborne was the ideal Soulslike for me. The game was the perfect length and the combat was more focused. I felt like genuine skill got me through the game, rather than the feeling that I’d blagged my way through some of the bosses like in ER.

 

[kevboard]

Nonsense. Wukong has all the hallmarks of Soulslike except for one element.

if the defining element is missing, it is a pretty big deal I'd say.

let's agree that it is a full blown RPG... what exactly are these Souls Elements?

Stamina bar? nope, that's a pretty common RPG element that the souls games did not introduce.

Dodging? nope, also a generic game mechanic.

you can't even point to the level design as WuKong has very simple level design and is almost a boss-rush game where the level design around it is just window dressing.

which elements does it have, that are distinctly something Demon's Souls brought to the table? none, because the only actually new element that Souls games brought to the table was the Soul Retrieval system... it's the 1 main defining feature. the rest around them like the respawn points, or like being an RPG are what completes the subgenre, but the subgenre is wholly distinct for the soul retrieval system.

you can find games with respawn points that refill your health, you can find games with intricate level design, you can find games with stamina bars, with lock-on, with dodging...
it all existed before Demon's Souls.

the 1 new thing, the 1 feature that is unmistakably unique, is the soul retrieval system. this system is what defines the games.
without the soul retrieval system the entire tension that these games try to evoke is gone. if you don't care if you die or not, if there's no danger and nothing at stake, then the entire concept of Demon's Souls is gone.

the soul retrieval system is what binds all the elements together, it's the glue that makes them all make sense.
the soul retrieval system makes you play methodically and be on your toes at all times. the system makes the choice wether to sit down on a bonfire meaningful... it's a risk to not sit down, but sitting down has possibly ramifications if you want to explore the whole area as everything respawns.
the soul system makes losing to a boss actually mean something, who knows if you can get your souls back now that they are trapped in the boss arena? maybe the boss will kill you before you can get them back... maybe you focus too much on getting them back and that makes you make mistakes.
the high difficulty also needs the soul system to be there, because if every enemy can destroy you if you aren't cautious, it makes the possibility of loosing all your souls a constant threat. it all works hand in hand


the soul retrieval system is the heart of the Soulsborne games. it makes them work. if you remove it you remove the essence of them

 

[Hayabusabruh]

Day 1.

 

[Gaiff]

if the defining element is missing, it is a pretty big deal I'd say.

let's agree that it is a full blown RPG... what exactly are these Souls Elements?

Respawning enemies upon death

Fixed difficulty

Stamina management

Challenging combat and level design

Emphasis on boss battles and feeling rewarded for overcoming them

Limited healing that is slow and needs to be timed

Cryptic side quests

Checkpoint system identical to Souls games

Stamina bar? nope, that's a pretty common RPG element that the souls games did not introduce.

Dodging? nope, also a generic game mechanic.

you can't even point to the level design as WuKong has very simple level design and is almost a boss-rush game where the level design around it is just window dressing.

which elements does it have, that are distinctly something Demon's Souls brought to the table? none, because the only actually new element that Souls games brought to the table was the Soul Retrieval system... it's the 1 main defining feature. the rest around them like the respawn points, or like being an RPG are what completes the subgenre, but the subgenre is wholly distinct for the soul retrieval system.

you can find games with respawn points that refill your health, you can find games with intricate level design, you can find games with stamina bars, with lock-on, with dodging...
it all existed before Demon's Souls.

the 1 new thing, the 1 feature that is unmistakably unique, is the soul retrieval system. this system is what defines the games.
without the soul retrieval system the entire tension that these games try to evoke is gone. if you don't care if you die or not, if there's no danger and nothing at stake, then the entire concept of Demon's Souls is gone.

the soul retrieval system is what binds all the elements together, it's the glue that makes them all make sense.
the soul retrieval system makes you play methodically and be on your toes at all times. the system makes the choice wether to sit down on a bonfire meaningful... it's a risk to not sit down, but sitting down has possibly ramifications if you want to explore the whole area as everything respawns.
the soul system makes losing to a boss actually mean something, who knows if you can get your souls back now that they are trapped in the boss arena? maybe the boss will kill you before you can get them back... maybe you focus too much on getting them back and that makes you make mistakes.
the high difficulty also needs the soul system to be there, because if every enemy can destroy you if you aren't cautious, it makes the possibility of loosing all your souls a constant threat. it all works hand in hand


the soul retrieval system is the heart of the Soulsborne games. it makes them work. if you remove it you remove the essence of them

I disagree. What defines Souls games, the heart and "soul" of them is the hostility of the environment and the learning through failure aspect that forces the player to die repeatedly and grow to overcome the odds. For instance, you say the soul retrieval system makes you play methodically, and you are correct. However, the game inherently needs to be difficult for this to work. If you lose your xp upon death, but every enemy is piss easy, you don't care about dying because you can just breeze through everything and get your xp back anyway. You're trying to divorce this mechanic from the rest as if it's the only thing defining the genre or that Souslike cannot be a Souslike without it, which is false. If the enemies don't respawn, do you care about losing your xp? Why would you? Every enemy is dead and you can just run back unopposed. Another aspect I'm fairly certain was introduced by Demon's Souls is the deliberately slow healing that needs to be timed properly. This completely changes the dynamic of the combat because regaining health becomes a risk and you will learn to use it properly through failure.

In a Wired Interview, Miyazaki stated:

I have no intention to make the game more difficult than other titles on purpose! It's just something required to make this style of game. Ever since Demon's Souls, I've really been pursuing making games that give players a sense of accomplishment by overcoming tremendous odds.

Souls games may have brought the retrieval aspect to the table, but it alone doesn't define the genre. In fact, what the games are most famous for is how difficult they are. "This is the Dark Souls of X" is a testament to this and this is achieved through various interlocking mechanics that alone don't make a Soulslike, but all of them put together do. So, no, I disagree that the xp retrieval system is absolutely necessary, not when almost everything is there except for that.

 

[fart town usa]

Good example of a game going too hard in the Souls direction, Lords of the Fallen (prior to v1.6, it's fixed now)

Good example of a game being too easy and ending up boring, It Takes Two.

 

[Lokaum D+]

No, this isn’t what makes it Soulslike.

Respawning enemies upon death

Fixed difficulty

Stamina management

Challenging combat and level design

Emphasis on boss battles and feeling rewarded for overcoming them

Limited healing that is slow and needs to be timed

Cryptic side quests

Checkpoint system identical to Souls games

The only thing Wukong doesn’t do is taking your xp upon death. Otherwise, it has all the hallmarks of a Soulslike.


The penalty is respawning enemies and being sent back to the last checkpoint.

90's RPG are all soulslike

 

[Gaiff]

90's RPG are all soulslike

Can you name a 90s RPG with all those elements?

 

[Lokaum D+]

Can you name a 90s RPG with all those elements?

 

[Gaiff]

Yeah, so where are they?

 

[Lokaum D+]

Yeah, so where are they?

 

[Danjin44]

I know most people won’t agree with me but as long as FROM continues making games I don’t need other “souls-like”.

Also as much I like Souls games doesn’t mean I need EVERY action game or action RPG play like Souls game.

 

[Gaiff]

I know most people won’t agree with me but as long as FROM continues making games I don’t need other “souls-like”.

Also as much I like Souls games doesn’t mean I need EVERY action game or action RPG play like Souls game.

Nah, I can see where you're coming from. I now have very little patience for Souslike unless they do something truly unique or have an interesting setting.

 

[rkofan87]

Then why was the demo hard as absolute fuck? I quit at the first mini boss

this they did not have easy in the demo bad marketing imo.

 

[jwaxeman]

For all the bitching Im struggling to think of a single game as punishing as Dark Souls. Maybe some side scrollers? Closest third person game I can think of is maybe Returnal or Nioh (I guess anything by Team Ninja is so similar). Ninja Gaiden did it first and I don’t think the complaining lasted as long but probably because those games don’t have the cultural saturation FROMSOFT games do.

 

[Danjin44]

Nah, I can see where you're coming from. I now have very little patience for Souslike unless they do something truly unique or have an interesting setting.

I don’t mind play Castlevania-like game because Konami stopped making Castlevania so people need different alternatives.

But FROM still making Souls game so why would I need Souls clone when I can get actual Souls game from original devs themselves? I also this way I never burn myself out of the formula because I don’t play every “Souls-like” game that comes out…..if people think I’m closed minded then fine by me, I have zero regrets.

 

[mayham2199]

Outside of Fromsoftware games, there have only been a handful of AAA "Souls" type games

Nioh 1/2
Stellar Blade
Lies of P
Black Myth Wu Kong

The people bitching about how there are way too many don't know what they are talking about. Also, all of those games above play quite differently from one another. Just admit you don't like pure action games, or the challenging nature of them, or the idea of losing XP after death ect.. Don't act like the genre has become stale, when it hasn't at all

The First Beserker demo is amazing. It's combat feels simular to Nioh and Sekiro, but very unique in its own right

I’d count the surge as well. Which was very different.

 

[rkofan87]

i wish lies of p had a difficulty adjuster i understand why it does not but still.

 

[mayham2199]

I don’t mind play Castlevania-like game because Konami stopped making Castlevania so people need different alternatives.

But FROM still making Souls game so why would I need Souls clone when I can get actual Souls game from original devs themselves? I also this way I never burn myself out of the formula because I don’t play every “Souls-like” game that comes out…..if people think I’m closed minded then fine by me, I have zero regrets.

The awesome thing is you don’t need to to buy them other people will or won’t. Same with FPS games, Mobas, and every other genre.

 

[Danjin44]

The awesome thing is you don’t need to to buy them other people will or won’t. Same with FPS games, Mobas, and every other genre.

And I don’t and as long as FROM are around I don’t need other Souls clones.

 

[Ansphn]

What are you talking about? Did you even play the game? BMW has a stamina bar and its purpose is identical to Souls games, ie, you can’t attack, dodge, or perform other moves with it and you have to manage it. Can’t just attack with impunity.


Wukong is most definitely an action RPG. Soulslike have more elements than what you claim as well. It’s the combination of all of them that makes a game a Soulslike. Just because it’s missing one element doesn’t make it not one.

Yes i platinum the game. Did you? The stamina bar is completely different from the Souls-like stamina bar. It's pretty much there for show. You could never do what you do in BMW in any Souls game even at maxed out stamina.

Souls would give you 4-7 attacks depending on what weapon you used and the stamina recovery would take awhile to fill back up.

BMW you can pretty much keep attacking near relentlessly and the stamina fills up much faster. BMW is pretty much an action game.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

Outside of Fromsoftware games, there have only been a handful of AAA "Souls" type games

Nioh 1/2
Stellar Blade
Lies of P
Black Myth Wu Kong

The people bitching about how there are way too many don't know what they are talking about. Also, all of those games above play quite differently from one another. Just admit you don't like pure action games, or the challenging nature of them, or the idea of losing XP after death ect.. Don't act like the genre has become stale, when it hasn't at all

The First Beserker demo is amazing. It's combat feels simular to Nioh and Sekiro, but very unique in its own right

I would actually consider Stellar Blade more DMC/NinjaGaiden-like than Souls-like. Sure, Stellar Blade had a few elements from Souls games, but it felt more action and fast paced with platforming, shooting, sliding, swimming, etc.

Black Myth Wukong imo was borderline Souls-like imo. It could pass as one, but BMW still felt like an action game with Souls elements imo.

 

[hussar16]

hearing this from a souslike developer is interesting as the whole genre to me is tiresome

 

[hussar16]

And why would you exclude the myriads of non-AA? They don't exist somehow?

On what planet are those games AAA? Only BMW is AAA. You also forgot Lords of the Fallen which has a higher budget than this entire list.

Lords of the Fallen
Lords of the Fallen 2023
The Surge
The Surge 2
Darksiders III
Mortal Shell
Lies of P
First Berserker Khazan
Nioh
Nioh 2
Wo Long
Hollow Knight (2D)
Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Dark Souls II, Bloodborne, Dark Souls III, Sekiro, Elden Ring

That list is a heck of a lot longer than you suggest, isn't it? If you ignore the non "AAA" (most of them) and From's entire catalog, there aren't that many games. No shit.

Nah, I love action games, but most Soulslike are absolute garbage who don't even understand what made the series so popular in the first place and that's why so many of them fail. My favorite action games are actually more in the vein of Ninja Gaiden or Bayonetta. Most Soulslike eschew skill in favor of rolling or parrying. Almost no intricacies or depth in the combo system and the combat turns into a ridiculous game of rollie pollie. I'm saying that as someone who enjoyed BMW.

Don't give a shit about Souls game 497574. I saw what the game was trying to do and got bored right away.

funny enough out of that whole list i could only get furthest with nioh 1 . all these other tiitles are so uningaging tht i lost focus and stoped playing in hour

 

[BlitzerRadic]

Did you even play BMW? It’s an action RPG through and through with far more RPG elements than God of War 2. Can you make different builds in God of War 2? No, you can’t. Is there character progression in God of War 2? No, there isn’t besides increasing your health and weapons and those aren’t RPG elements. Can you completely change your playstyle based on your build in God of War 2? Once again, no. Do your stats/build make a difference in fights? Can they trivialize a fight or make it much harder? No.

You are so wrong about God of War 2. You absolutely can make builds in that game and health isnt the only stat you can increase.

 

[CompleteGlobalSaturation]

Black Myth Wukong is probably the only souls like I tolerated because it has a good checkpoint system and does not punish you for dying.

I detest games which force you to run for 5 mins before dying at a boss.

 

[Grizzled Ghost]

Black Myth Wukong is probably the only souls like I tolerated because it has a good checkpoint system and does not punish you for dying.

I detest games which force you to run for 5 mins before dying at a boss.

That means it's not a soulslike

Also idk if you're counting From games but Elden Ring pretty much eliminated runbacks.

 

[CompleteGlobalSaturation]

That means it's not a soulslike

Also idk if you're counting From games but Elden Ring pretty much eliminated runbacks.

I haven't played Elden Rings but DS 1-3 made you wade through waves of enemies before reaching the boss upon death.

 

[Grizzled Ghost]

I haven't played Elden Rings but DS 1-3 made you wade through waves of enemies before reaching the boss upon death.

Yeah, they did. Demon's Souls was actually the worst contender having only 1 checkpoint at the beginning of each level.

Elden Ring does away with that though. There's a respawn point directly outside of each boss room. With a couple of exceptions.

There's only one notable runback iirc which is done for lore reasons and isn't a very difficult boss, or runback.

 

[Gaiff]

Yeah, they did. Demon's Souls was actually the worst contender having only 1 checkpoint at the beginning of each level.

Elden Ring does away with that though. There's a respawn point directly outside of each boss room. With a couple of exceptions.

There's only one notable runback iirc which is done for lore reasons and isn't a very difficult boss, or runback.

Demon’s Souls really isn’t the worst. The only egregious runback is the Flamelurker. The others either have shortcuts or loop around the level, so the run isn’t that long.

The absolute worst in the series is the one in the Frigid Outskirts in DkSII. Easily 4-5 minutes and that piece of shit horse/reindeer that attacks you.

 

[Grizzled Ghost]

Demon’s Souls really isn’t the worst. The only egregious runback is the Flamelurker. The others either have shortcuts or loop around the level, so the run isn’t that long.

The absolute worst in the series is the one in the Frigid Outskirts in DkSII. Easily 4-5 minutes and that piece of shit horse/reindeer that attacks you.

Flamelurker was the one I was thinking of to be honest. And 4-1, having to do that cliff with the sky-rays and the black katana skeleton guarding the boss door.

You're right though, 2 was worse. Executioner's Chariot, ugh.

I try not to think about DS2 much in general.

 

[CompleteGlobalSaturation]

Yeah, they did. Demon's Souls was actually the worst contender having only 1 checkpoint at the beginning of each level.

Elden Ring does away with that though. There's a respawn point directly outside of each boss room. With a couple of exceptions.

There's only one notable runback iirc which is done for lore reasons and isn't a very difficult boss, or runback.

If a game is difficult, I want to be back in action asap.

I can never be bothered to play difficult games with poor checkpoints or extremely long loading times.

It's why I enjoy Doom Eternal on so much. Nightmare is as the name implies on a controller. But load times are instant. You die? You're back in the game 2 seconds later.