Terbinator
Member
Hai fading big time.
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League of Legends Championship Series: Season 5
- Thread starter Edwardo
- Start date
Kotetsu534
Member
Game 2: C9 vs. TSM
C9 take double AD with Gragas, Maokai and Morgana to protect them. Interesting that Meteos took Gragas over Sejuani. TSM take an unusual comp, with Kalista/Kennen bot lane, to big tanks in Sejuani and Sion, and AP Kog'Maw in the mid lane. Unlike last game both teams are trying to do much the same things - poke down the enemy, take their towers, use their tanks to engage when the opportunity arises.
The first 8 minutes or so pass off without incident, till Meteos ganks Dyrus in the bot lane and hands off first blood to Balls. Dyrus completely wasted his flash. Good news for TSM comes from top lane, where, after Sneaky and Lemon had chunked out Lustboy, WildTurtle picks up a kill on Lemon when he overextends. This lets Bjergsen move in to C9's jungle and steal blue.
Heh, C9 do something really cute when the teams move to push down the top outer towers. They realise Dyrus is so weak that Sneaky/Lemon can take it 2v1 so Meteos can grab dragon at the same time. TSM know this, and so try to push down on to the top inner turret and dive Balls there. Hai knows this and, after basing, goes top instead of mid and picks up a kill on WildTurtle (Meteos holds his lane) after Balls dies. C9 have a pretty deep understanding of how to rotate around a map efficient.
TSM group up and try to siege down C9's mid outer at 17 minutes, but they don't get it thanks to Meteos' and Hai's wave clear, and Balls gets to jump out to an even bigger cs and experience lead while this happens. He's gone for a RoA with his first blood gold, a build that's been much less common lately on competitive Maokais (usually Righteous Glory is preferred), and could be a huge threat later in the game.
But at 21 minutes, he isn't, so when he goes in on TSM's backline after they secure dragon, he dies instantly. Kog'Maw with Luden's Echo does ridiculous damage at this point, and Lemon gets caught by a Sion ult too. TSM trade mid outer towers here too, and take a 1k gold lead.
On 28 minutes Santorin lands an excellent Sejuani ultimate across 4 members of C9. There's follow up from Dyrus, but Meteos buys C9 time with the Gragas ult and C9 manage to escape with two kills, dodging just enough Kog ults to survive. They immediately charge out of the base and rush baron while Bjergsen clears his blue buff, and secure it.
C9 call TSM's bluff when they show them mid lane in exchange for dragon position, and take down mid inner and inhibitor towers as TSM prepare to collapse on them. A long chase turns in to a 2 for 1 in TSM's favour, Kog's artillery blowing Hai's Corki out of the air. The poke from AP Kog'Maw becomes too much for C9 to handle when Bjergsen gets his Void Staff. They can't get anywhere near TSM without losing huge chunks of HP, and they end up getting aced when TSM bait baron at 38 minutes.
Turns out that in extreme poke wars, the Kog'Maw beats the Corki. Doubled the damage of any other champion in the game, per Jatt.
1.0 - Team composition
C9 take double AD with Gragas, Maokai and Morgana to protect them. Interesting that Meteos took Gragas over Sejuani. TSM take an unusual comp, with Kalista/Kennen bot lane, to big tanks in Sejuani and Sion, and AP Kog'Maw in the mid lane. Unlike last game both teams are trying to do much the same things - poke down the enemy, take their towers, use their tanks to engage when the opportunity arises.
The first 8 minutes or so pass off without incident, till Meteos ganks Dyrus in the bot lane and hands off first blood to Balls. Dyrus completely wasted his flash. Good news for TSM comes from top lane, where, after Sneaky and Lemon had chunked out Lustboy, WildTurtle picks up a kill on Lemon when he overextends. This lets Bjergsen move in to C9's jungle and steal blue.
Heh, C9 do something really cute when the teams move to push down the top outer towers. They realise Dyrus is so weak that Sneaky/Lemon can take it 2v1 so Meteos can grab dragon at the same time. TSM know this, and so try to push down on to the top inner turret and dive Balls there. Hai knows this and, after basing, goes top instead of mid and picks up a kill on WildTurtle (Meteos holds his lane) after Balls dies. C9 have a pretty deep understanding of how to rotate around a map efficient.
TSM group up and try to siege down C9's mid outer at 17 minutes, but they don't get it thanks to Meteos' and Hai's wave clear, and Balls gets to jump out to an even bigger cs and experience lead while this happens. He's gone for a RoA with his first blood gold, a build that's been much less common lately on competitive Maokais (usually Righteous Glory is preferred), and could be a huge threat later in the game.
But at 21 minutes, he isn't, so when he goes in on TSM's backline after they secure dragon, he dies instantly. Kog'Maw with Luden's Echo does ridiculous damage at this point, and Lemon gets caught by a Sion ult too. TSM trade mid outer towers here too, and take a 1k gold lead.
On 28 minutes Santorin lands an excellent Sejuani ultimate across 4 members of C9. There's follow up from Dyrus, but Meteos buys C9 time with the Gragas ult and C9 manage to escape with two kills, dodging just enough Kog ults to survive. They immediately charge out of the base and rush baron while Bjergsen clears his blue buff, and secure it.
C9 call TSM's bluff when they show them mid lane in exchange for dragon position, and take down mid inner and inhibitor towers as TSM prepare to collapse on them. A long chase turns in to a 2 for 1 in TSM's favour, Kog's artillery blowing Hai's Corki out of the air. The poke from AP Kog'Maw becomes too much for C9 to handle when Bjergsen gets his Void Staff. They can't get anywhere near TSM without losing huge chunks of HP, and they end up getting aced when TSM bait baron at 38 minutes.
Turns out that in extreme poke wars, the Kog'Maw beats the Corki. Doubled the damage of any other champion in the game, per Jatt.
1.0 - Team composition
Imperfected
Member
Hai fading big time.
TSM sabotaged his coffee cup, knowing that without it he wouldn't be able to last the best of five. Clever girls.
Terbinator
Member
Dat' SKT Zyra cosplayer.
Gibe
Gibe
You can do something similar on other poke champs with Luden's. It was a bigger problem because of the way Hai played Corki, where almost all of his damage was close range AD. It left no answer for TSM's backline because C9 had no way to get to engage them. Morg was also a really bad pick.Kog seems a smidge broken.
TharpDaddy
Member
You can do something similar on other poke champs with Luden's. It was a bigger problem because of the way Hai played Corki, where almost all of his damage was close range AD. It left no answer for TSM's backline because C9 had no way to get to engage them. Morg was also a really bad pick.
Sure, but even if you manage to avoid Kog's poke he can then use his free W and hit you with % damage with high scaling. He also has 3 poking abilities where Corki has 2, has more utility than Corki and scales much harder.
Prototype Viktor
Member
?Lulu mid game over C9 they lose¿
Stone Ocean
Member
With the way Hai is playing Lulu might actually work
Have Sneaky carry
Have Sneaky carry
Imperfected
Member
Sure, but even if you manage to avoid Kog's poke he can then use his free W and hit you with % damage with high scaling. He also has 3 poking abilities where Corki has 2, has more utility than Corki and scales much harder.
Eh, Corki has a mobility skill. That's really hard to evaluate properly from a balance perspective (see also: League of Gap Closers), but at the very least it means Kog should have something over him.
WesternHeretic
Member
Remember when C9 was great at 2v1 and TSM could only win in standard lanes?
Imperfected
Member
Lustboy sell that Spellthief and treat yourself to a Zhonya's. You've earned it.
Kotetsu534
Member
Game 3: TSM vs. C9
TSM take a bunch of big beefy tanks and tanky DPS types, and throw in a Corki/Kennen bot lane. C9 have three tanks of their own, but with Lulu mid, they're dependent on Sneaky's Sivir to do most of their damage.
And the laning phase goes very well for TSM. Lustboy gets better harass off on the enemy duo than Lemon, and, more importantly, Balls' Sion gets zoned much more effectively than Maokai, falling behind in cs and experience. C9 even lose their second blue to Santorin's aggression, and are in a hole even before first blood.
Meteos Flash -> Body Slam's on to Bjergsen, only for a quick TP from Dyrus and Hai's low damage on Lulu leaving C9 not only unable to kill Bjergsen, but with a dead Lulu and a Maokai even further ahead. TSM take the first dragon, and C9 are forced to have Balls camp bot lane for a sneaky gank. It doesn't come off, and Lustboy manages to gank Hai again with the help of Urgot's Hyper Kinetic Position Reverser. TSM lead by 3k at 14 minutes, with large leads in both solo lanes against a comp with very low damage. Looking very grim for C9.
They manage to keep things respectable for 8 minutes or so with some smart objective trades, and a good gank from Meteos on to WildTurtle nets them their first kill, but when Lustboy counterganks a dive attempt on Dyrus in the top lane, TSM emerge with a bunch of kills and end up next to baron and so take it.
TSM manage to royally mess up a siege attempt on C9's base and contrive to lose an inhibitor, but C9's shotcalling goes from genius to wildly erratic in the space of 5 minutes. They try to force an engage on TSM at their bot inner tower which is easily fended off, and then they send Balls in to the enemy base to distract TSM while they take baron, which results in them getting aced. I suppose they realised their comp had little hope of overcoming TSM's after such a bad laning phase and they needed to pull off some very low percentage plays.
1.0 - Laning phase
TSM take a bunch of big beefy tanks and tanky DPS types, and throw in a Corki/Kennen bot lane. C9 have three tanks of their own, but with Lulu mid, they're dependent on Sneaky's Sivir to do most of their damage.
And the laning phase goes very well for TSM. Lustboy gets better harass off on the enemy duo than Lemon, and, more importantly, Balls' Sion gets zoned much more effectively than Maokai, falling behind in cs and experience. C9 even lose their second blue to Santorin's aggression, and are in a hole even before first blood.
Meteos Flash -> Body Slam's on to Bjergsen, only for a quick TP from Dyrus and Hai's low damage on Lulu leaving C9 not only unable to kill Bjergsen, but with a dead Lulu and a Maokai even further ahead. TSM take the first dragon, and C9 are forced to have Balls camp bot lane for a sneaky gank. It doesn't come off, and Lustboy manages to gank Hai again with the help of Urgot's Hyper Kinetic Position Reverser. TSM lead by 3k at 14 minutes, with large leads in both solo lanes against a comp with very low damage. Looking very grim for C9.
They manage to keep things respectable for 8 minutes or so with some smart objective trades, and a good gank from Meteos on to WildTurtle nets them their first kill, but when Lustboy counterganks a dive attempt on Dyrus in the top lane, TSM emerge with a bunch of kills and end up next to baron and so take it.
TSM manage to royally mess up a siege attempt on C9's base and contrive to lose an inhibitor, but C9's shotcalling goes from genius to wildly erratic in the space of 5 minutes. They try to force an engage on TSM at their bot inner tower which is easily fended off, and then they send Balls in to the enemy base to distract TSM while they take baron, which results in them getting aced. I suppose they realised their comp had little hope of overcoming TSM's after such a bad laning phase and they needed to pull off some very low percentage plays.
1.0 - Laning phase
TharpDaddy
Member
That comp could only have worked if Sneaky was on a hyper carry or something but it wouldn't have mattered with how they played that early game. I really don't like Hai on utility champions and i've not seen the west pull off a good Lulu mid in quite a long time. IMO C9 needs to stop fixating on Gragas and go for that Sej.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
Man its so weird to see c9 making such poor decisions.
Kotetsu534
Member
Lulu is almost a guaranteed loss unless part of a Juggermaw comp.
I think, unless you have a Lulu specialist on your team and you're dead set on running comps with her, you should save her for stopping assassins/divers and Kog'Maw comps.
TharpDaddy
Member
Man its so weird to see c9 making such poor decisions.
Them choosing such a weird and low damage team comp is strange. I have to wonder if they're not limited by Hai's champion pool. If he can only play Zed, Corki and Urgot then it's going to seriously limit their options. I was thinking they'd pull out Kassadin or something last match so they'd have a second threat, Lulu seemed like the worst choice.
Imperfected
Member
Them choosing such a weird and low damage team comp is strange. I have to wonder if they're not limited by Hai's champion pool. If he can only play Zed, Corki and Urgot then it's going to seriously limit their options.
C9's been tunneling into low-damage (and worse, poorly diversified damage) comps the entire series. Even in the game they won, they honestly had an inferior composition, they just played the map far better and got godlike engages.
They really need to look at their coaching staff. There's been a lot made of how C9's fallen off this year, and how it's because of Bjergsen or Piglet or whatever other player being too good for them to handle, but what was the real change? Every other team got top-tier coaching talent with them in the "booth" for champion select, and C9's still leaning on Lemon. They need a better coach, or maybe just to put more faith in the one they have.
Imperfected
Member
Lol you guys are talking like c9 already lost
Throwing away two games on bad compositions is something you have to change as a team, even if you win the series. The only teams that have a, "We won, so it's okay" attitude are the ones doomed to circle the drain.
Similarly, even if TSM wins they need to reign in WildTurtle yet again, because his positioning has been bad in almost every teamfight, including the ones they've won. Even with his Kalista play, which was otherwise stellar, his positioning was constantly suspect.
riskybusinesstomcruise
Member
not feeling tsm's comp
Agreed. I don't "get" Cho'Gath mid.
Agreed. I don't "get" Cho'Gath mid.
Very good against zed
TharpDaddy
Member
C9's been tunneling into low-damage (and worse, poorly diversified damage) comps the entire series. Even in the game they won, they honestly had an inferior composition, they just played the map far better and got godlike engages.
They really need to look at their coaching staff. There's been a lot made of how C9's fallen off this year, and how it's because of Bjergsen or Piglet or whatever other player being too good for them to handle, but what was the real change? Every other team got top-tier coaching talent with them in the "booth" for champion select, and C9's still leaning on Lemon. They need a better coach, or maybe just to put more faith in the one they have.
Charlie makes the calls on picks and bans now. IIRC Charlie is their only coaching member though, TSM has 2 analysts on top of Locodoco. C9 needs to expand their coaching staff but I doubt there's a lot of qualified people.
This game is like a reverse jungle-wise. Meteos is heavily controlling while Santorin is having to play reactive.
WesternHeretic
Member
Very good against zed
Yep... but here's the problem. C9 also have Vlad/Zac.
If Cho goes FH (which he probably will) the burden will be on WildTurtle to do all the damage (unless Vi... goes like Trinity). If he goes FH, and MR (for Vlad/Zac) he has even less damage.
If he goes damage he probably won't have CDR/Mana.
TharpDaddy
Member
Nevermind, TSM back in the lead heavily.
riskybusinesstomcruise
Member
Very good against zed
As a lane counter pick it makes sense I just don't understand its role in team comps. Seems like an awkward champion in the mage role. Not that it isn't good, just doesn't click for me.
Imperfected
Member
Agreed. I don't "get" Cho'Gath mid.
It's kind of a concession to Zed for lane. Basically, Zed can't reliably ult onto Cho unless both his knock-up and silence are on CD, and if both of them are off CD he can't even begin to think of going on him. He also pushes waves fast enough to punish Zed for roaming, even though his follow isn't the best.
I don't particularly like Cho's late game contribution, but if your only goal is to keep Zed from getting going, he's pretty good at that.
I love ludens echo
also, dammit C9, ruining out 20 game weekends.
I don't see much hope left in this game anymore. Chogath destroys both vlad and zed with his silence leaving sivir to fend off cho, vi and mao. Not to mention kennen, who poops on spellshield
he forces a safe lane mid, preventing snowball
late game, his silence destroys vlad due to his short range, and zed due to his melee nature. Sivir's auto range is also within Cho Q range, which is pretty dangerous
but dammit bjergersen, he just makes TSM auto win against teams with weak midlanes
also, dammit C9, ruining out 20 game weekends.
I don't see much hope left in this game anymore. Chogath destroys both vlad and zed with his silence leaving sivir to fend off cho, vi and mao. Not to mention kennen, who poops on spellshield
Agreed. I don't "get" Cho'Gath mid.
he forces a safe lane mid, preventing snowball
late game, his silence destroys vlad due to his short range, and zed due to his melee nature. Sivir's auto range is also within Cho Q range, which is pretty dangerous
but dammit bjergersen, he just makes TSM auto win against teams with weak midlanes
Imperfected
Member
I love ludens echo
also, dammit C9, ruining out 20 game weekends.
I don't see much hope left in this game anymore. Chogath destroys both vlad and zed with his silence leaving sivir to fend off cho, vi and mao. Not to mention kennen, who poops on spellshield
Not to mention that they're keeping Vlad from getting farmed, which puts C9 right back to lacking diversified damage against a tanky comp again.
WesternHeretic
Member
There is no way NA teams that can compete with TSM until someone find's a mid laner that can beat or at least go even with Bjergsen.
WesternHeretic
Member
Hai really needs to get replaced
With whom? There's really no one in NA that has stood up to Bjerg all split. At least Hai has chemistry with the rest of C9. Replace Hai and they lose their shot caller and have to start from scratch with going through all the growing pains again. If they are going to replace him they might as well wait for after Worlds because they are still good enough to get to Worlds. Replace him now and they might not even make it with him they are still #2 to #3 in NA.
Prototype Viktor
Member
well not like we didn't see this coming once brian! put his vote for C9 days ago. His blant love of TSM helped that with the anti-90% fan vote he displayed
Shining Sunshine
Banned
With whom? There's really no one in NA that has stood up to Bjerg all split. At least Hai has chemistry with the rest of C9. Replace Hai and they lose their shot caller and have to start from scratch with going through all the growing pains again. If they are going to replace him they might as well wait for after Worlds because they are still good enough to get to Worlds. Replace him now and they might not even make it with him they are still #2 to #3 in NA.
With Faker
Imperfected
Member
Well, it took four games, but Turtle finally positioned properly in a fight.
TharpDaddy
Member
With whom? There's really no one in NA that has stood up to Bjerg all split. At least Hai has chemistry with the rest of C9. Replace Hai and they lose their shot caller and have to start from scratch with going through all the growing pains again. If they are going to replace him they might as well wait for after Worlds because they are still good enough to get to Worlds. Replace him now and they might not even make it with him they are still #2 to #3 in NA.
C9 isn't going to get any better with this roster. Hai won't suddenly have a second wind and become a dominant mid, especially with his health issues. Its worth taking a gamble to try and improve the team in the long run, it's going to be a slow decline if they don't change something. They'll be able to make the upper half of the bracket for a long time but they won't ever reclaim the throne of #1. That's assuming of course they want to try and be the best. If they just want to do well in NA and play with Hai then that's fine, not every team has to go for #1. If they want to be the best though the current roster can't do it.
zerokoolpsx
Member
Hai got blown up literally by Berg.