Support NeoGAF

[zkylon]

the problem with azir is that rito gave him a billion mechanics and now it's trying to make him accessible, but that's just not gonna happen, a champion that complex is always gonna be gated from most people. and tbh most of those mechanics are awesome and it would suck to remove any of them. like, taking away the cdr into as passive thing was ok, but taking away the knockup pretty much made azirsec'ing way too risky which to me kind of ruined the champion entirely

i really want to see his rework

The toxic behavior doesn't stop, I will be playing ranked and everyone on my team is at each other throats constantly. I get kinda mad when people ks me, if it is a team fight I don't care who gets the kills. But if I'm about to with a 1 v 1 and my jungle comes and steals it by flash and wasting there ult or something like that I get pissed.

it's not too bad if jungler steals the kill, you get assist gold that would be wasted otherwise

 

[Tizoc]

Don't sleep on dat AP Jungle Malph yo
http://matchhistory.eune.leagueofle...etails/EUN1/1267482681/205390904?tab=overview

Our Jinx was furious cuz we kept KSing, eventuall Yasuo AFKs, and Jinx is really ticked off.
They get our mid inhibitors, while Garen yolos, Blitz and Jinx manage to get 3 champs while I wrack up the assists.
THey surrender after we get their mid inhibitor :v

 

[PhillipCostigan]

Posting again on new page. Azir isn't being reworked. Full context from Meddler:

TLDR: Azir has problems we want to fix, that's not the same as 'Azir's getting reworked'.

Copy paste from a comment I added to that thread after the bit you're linking:

Azir's kit is sufficiently difficult to learn that it doesn't seem to currently be possible to put him in a spot where he's sufficiently balanced for experienced players without being extremely inaccessible to people unfamiliar with him. Learning curve and skill ceiling are great of course, in this case Azir's skill floor's too punishing though. Current intent is to look at ways to make him somewhat more accessible, with if needs be, some nerfs to his top end if those changes buff him there too.

 

[Stone Ocean]

I dunno how you make Azir more accessible without minor rework stuff. All I can think of is dumb stuff like making his soldiers attack automatically like Zyra plants.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

u make his q a point and click ability

 

[Stone Ocean]

u make his q a point and click ability

We're trying to balance Azir here not make him even worse

 

[Ambition]

He's not being reworked.

How that work will be prioritized hasn't been determined yet. There are a number of other projects it'd have to be traded off against on either the Live Gameplay (balance) team or the Champion Update (reworks) team (projects like Ryze, Azir, Taric, Yorick etc).

Azir's kit is sufficiently difficult to learn that it doesn't seem to currently be possible to put him in a spot where he's sufficiently balanced for experienced players without being extremely inaccessible to people unfamiliar with him. Learning curve and skill ceiling are great of course, in this case Azir's skill floor's too punishing though. Current intent is to look at ways to make him somewhat more accessible, with if needs be, some nerfs to his top end if those changes buff him there too.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/NzjhxoyR-some-gameplay-work-in-progress-general-gameplay-thoughts-10202015?comment=00a90000

Edit: Ok

 

[Ghost is Bad]

ayyyy silver's just as toxic as plat lmao

 

[Stone Ocean]

Of course not. Silver is worse because the shitters are actually shitters and once you get to the end of the season you get all these frustrated people trying super hard to get their shit skin.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

actually you're wrong.

silver players may be shitters but that's ok because they don't know any better. plat shitters are worse because they should know better and they don't.

 

[Nekofrog]

they're just as toxic but for different reasons

silvers really really really want to be gold so they can get that sweet skin

plats really really really want to be diamond because they think that makes them "high elo"

 

[Kenai]

Lee Sin is probably the perfect example of non-toxic, healthy and balanced champion. Yasuo though is too overloaded and his ult is too toxic because of his retarded-easy execution to be considered good design. Maybe if it only worked with his own knock up.

Sion, Thresh, Bard, Azir, Braum or Zed are better examples of good design that allows good balance.

I never thought I'd say this, but I think post rework Lee and post rework Nid are quite balanced (they were absolute bull pre-rework though).

I also feel like Tahm Kench is pretty damn well balanced (at least as a support champ.

And I'd b*tch about Veigar long before any other champ right now. Yasuo is bad but Veigar is...unacceptable.

 

[Nekofrog]

oh yeah, tahm kench is totally balanced.

support tahm can 1v1 a lot of adc's in the game. so much balance.

daily reminder that if you have ever complained about syndra being press R to win, your complaints about veigar fall on deaf ears because of your windmill tilting

other asshole things as i think of them

 

[NCR Redslayer]

oh yeah, tahm kench is totally balanced.

support tahm can 1v1 a lot of adc's in the game. so much balance.

Active shield needs to get cut in half. That or kench's stacks must timeout faster.

 

[Nekofrog]

my biggest complaint about tahm kench as a person who loves to play him, is his passive stacks are unintuitive for the enemy. once applied, it takes 7 agonizing seconds for the stacks to even begin to drop.

there is no intuitive, plain to read countdown timer for this while you're laning against him. it's absurd that it takes that long, and it's absurd that it it's that hard to keep track of

 

[Ghost is Bad]

the biggest problem with tahm kench is that he has 5k hp with 1 health item.

 

[Nekofrog]

no the biggest problem with tahm kench is that he doesn't have a PROJECT: KENCH skin

oh my god that was just a stream of consciousness thought but now i really have to have that skin

 

[Kenai]

oh yeah, tahm kench is totally balanced.

support tahm can 1v1 a lot of adc's in the game. so much balance.

daily reminder that if you have ever complained about syndra being press R to win, your complaints about veigar fall on deaf ears because of your windmill tilting

other asshole things as i think of them

I don't really complain about Syndra since she is so buggy. In fact I can't remember the last time I vs'd a Syndra.

If anything my Veigar complaints should fall on deaf ears because I descend on them as bearded Fizz and (usually) win. I juke the heck outta that ult between the trollpole and an Hourglass. But he snowballs into literally infinity pretty easy

And I can 1v1 ADCs as a lot of supports, especially early on. Karma, Zyra, Blitzcrank, Annie, Naut (and yes Tahm) are all characters I have chased an ADC with lately. It's the case with a lot of supports who can distrupt their autos/poke I guess.

no the biggest problem with tahm kench is that he doesn't have a PROJECT: KENCH skin

oh my god that was just a stream of consciousness thought but now i really have to have that skin

Vote for Kench Kringle. Barf up a plate of cookies/milk and then re-eat them.

 

[zkylon]

I dunno how you make Azir more accessible without minor rework stuff. All I can think of is dumb stuff like making his soldiers attack automatically like Zyra plants.

that suggestion sucks but u can make soldier auto attack champions in range after q (which would prolly suck too but less) and you can generally make the timing on shuffling more forgiving

but yeah, that's all i can think of without adding new mechanics (he gets a one attack as boost after q like fiora e so he can easily land follow up q).

or u know, you can remove the aoe thing about his soldiers attack and just make them extended autos which is easier to wrap ur head around

or whatever

I never thought I'd say this, but I think post rework Lee and post rework Nid are quite balanced (they were absolute bull pre-rework though).

I also feel like Tahm Kench is pretty damn well balanced (at least as a support champ.

And I'd b*tch about Veigar long before any other champ right now. Yasuo is bad but Veigar is...unacceptable.

veigar is getting nerfed in 5.21. he'll still be dumb i guess, but less dumb. really bad champion balance imo, his kit itself isn't awful, they just tweaked him the wrong way. but i overall think stacking champions are dumb so u know...

yasuo is fine, i dunno why rito wants to nerf him, probably some high elo stuff

daily reminder that if you have ever complained about syndra being press R to win, your complaints about veigar fall on deaf ears because of your windmill tilting

nobody ever complained about syndra except noot and noot likes kayle so u know...

rito just nerfed her q cos they hate fun

the biggest problem with tahm kench is that he has 5k hp with 1 health item.

i don't think that's bad, he's a support champion with very few actually supportive abilities and very awkward cc, he needs to be annoying somehow to be relevant in the game.

i just take issue with how unfun it is to play against him because of how easily he defuses fighting situations.

like compare him to thresh, who has to coordinate to throw good lanterns and who requires the person who's caught to actually do something to save themselves. but also it leads to cool stuff around the lantern, like in worlds mithy (i think it was mithy) alistar shoving someone out of lantern range, that's awesome. and it can also be used offensively

much better and interesting spell. i think that thing's gotta get nerfed, either cd or duration or make tahm unable to get grey health while having someone in his belly, i dunno, something.

 

[Stone Ocean]

I remain convinced that once Riot changes marksmen back into ADCs Tahm won't be as big of a problem. No need to nerf him now, let the system changes sink in and then see if he still needs changes.

 

[Nekofrog]

there are too many things that make tahm strong right now. he's strong in the jungle, support, and top lane. marksmen changes will only effect one lane (possibly, we don't even know what's going to happen there yet)

the legit worst thing about tahm is that riot came out and said "we're not sure if he's OP, balanced, or weak right now, so we're not going to touch him" a few days ago when it's clear as goddamn day that he's too strong and way too versatile

on an unrelated subject

since poppy's getting reworked sometime soon, i think it's time i spam poppy games just for old times sake

 

[Mostmanlyman]

I personally don't think azir need to be changed. I think it is fine to have a champ that has a high skill cap and high reward. With them taking off the knock up on the E and the nerf on his q.

 

[Neol]

I don't know. A part of me thinks Azir is fine the way he is but then a part of me actually hates when I'm playing against him.

I just wish the soldiers had like health bars or something. Also them being able to hit wards infuriates me as well.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

tahm takes the thresh lantern express thing and makes it 100x more bullshit.

 

[zkylon]

I remain convinced that once Riot changes marksmen back into ADCs Tahm won't be as big of a problem. No need to nerf him now, let the system changes sink in and then see if he still needs changes.

i don't think so, if they're bringing back aggressive adcs he'll be even stronger :T

I don't know. A part of me thinks Azir is fine the way he is but then a part of me actually hates when I'm playing against him.

imo he's pretty much fine right now

i'd take a dmg nerf in exchange for getting the knockup back, but that's about it

not having the knockup on his e really makes shurima shuffling hard to do, removing that really raised his skillfloor a whole bunch because you need absolute certainty it's gonna land mid flight or else you'll miss ur window to land the ult. before u had a bit of help because the knockup gave u an extra second to prep ur ult

I just wish the soldiers had like health bars or something.

that would probably make him even more annoying

Also them being able to hit wards infuriates me as well.

nahh, that's fun!

 

[Newt]

I feel like ADC just needs another item like botrk, has the same unique passive, but offers AD instead of attack speed and doesn't have the botrk active.

 

[Sofo]

Every single time I have to play ADC there's a Yasuo in the opposite team, and dear god I do hate that champion .__. I sometimes dream of a day when Riot apologizes for such a champion and just straight up deletes him from the face of the earth. Didn't help that our Alistar used Exhaust at the worst times too!

In other news, I bought Kalista but I am already regretting it (although the first match with her was fun). I think Tristana will always and forever be my ADC gurl.

 

[jerd]

Lee Sin is probably the perfect example of non-toxic, healthy and balanced champion. Yasuo though is too overloaded and his ult is too toxic because of his retarded-easy execution to be considered good design. Maybe if it only worked with his own knock up.

Sion, Thresh, Bard, Azir, Braum or Zed are better examples of good design that allows good balance.

Bard may be one of Riot's best recent designs, even if it did take them a bit to get him playable. The kit is honestly pretty simple without too many bells and whistles but you can do so many different things with it.

 

[Newt]

The champion I hate most in this game will always be Malphite.

 

[Nekofrog]

I've been seeing bards do an absurd amount of damage lately.

 

[jerd]

I've been seeing bards do an absurd amount of damage lately.

My last game i did 1400 dmg less than my trist but i'm not sure if that says more about bard or her

The champion I hate most in this game will always be Malphite.

the skill cap makes him balanced tho

 

[Edwardo]

I've been seeing bards do an absurd amount of damage lately.

When will you be on? I'll trade mystery gifts.

 

[Kenai]

veigar is getting nerfed in 5.21. he'll still be dumb i guess, but less dumb. really bad champion balance imo, his kit itself isn't awful, they just tweaked him the wrong way. but i overall think stacking champions are dumb so u know...

yasuo is fine, i dunno why rito wants to nerf him, probably some high elo stuff

I don't mind stacking champions but at least I feel like Cass/Nasus and now Kindred have to actually work for theirs. Cass needs to either keep enemies poisoned or use her MP to keep creeps poisoned. Nasus has to ignore the rest of the world for 30+ min, and Kindred has to sneak into the enemy jng or successfully gank 6+ times. Veigar just has to play and doesn't even need to last hit champs with a particular move, just kill them (and his ult is point and cick + based off opponent's AP so if they do well and are Ap they get punished cause....?)

If they nerfed his scaling on some of his stuff and the bonus AP ratio on his ult he'd probably be ok. Probably. His ult doesn't need to be point and click and scale with his passive, his own AP items, AND the enemy AP items all at the same time.

i don't think that's bad, he's a support champion with very few actually supportive abilities and very awkward cc, he needs to be annoying somehow to be relevant in the game.

i just take issue with how unfun it is to play against him because of how easily he defuses fighting situations.

like compare him to thresh, who has to coordinate to throw good lanterns and who requires the person who's caught to actually do something to save themselves. but also it leads to cool stuff around the lantern, like in worlds mithy (i think it was mithy) alistar shoving someone out of lantern range, that's awesome. and it can also be used offensively

much better and interesting spell. i think that thing's gotta get nerfed, either cd or duration or make tahm unable to get grey health while having someone in his belly, i dunno, something.

I love Tahm specifically because I can mother hen out of position teammates. I saved a Kayle 3 times when an enemy Malphite tried to dive her last night, I ate her as she flew up and then ran out of range. I saved a Twitch twice in lane when Blitzcrank pulled him onto Jinx chompers,. Ashe arrow stun, Veigar combo, Thresh combo, Braum buildup, i have juked SO MANY things for so many people.

And I feel like people are silly complaining that is OP rather than the ridiculous stunlocks or instant HP poof-killing things that the enemy did. "Oh Tahm stopped my unstoppable combo and is running away in terror! Broken! OP!" lol ok.

Tahm still isn't the best peeler, (we have point n click stun supports) the best disengager (Janna and Braum exist), the best 1 v 1 support (TIBBERS!) or any of that.

I will say this, his Devour max HP% and his ult's passive could probably stand to be looked at, cause that's just tacked on extra dmg.

 

[Nekofrog]

When will you be on? I'll trade mystery gifts.

8 hours

 

[Edwardo]

8 hours

Alright i'll message u when I get home later if I remember.

 

[zkylon]

I feel like ADC just needs another item like botrk, has the same unique passive, but offers AD instead of attack speed and doesn't have the botrk active.

that's just boring noot

like literally u just grabbed a cool item and took away its fun active and just put a bunch of stats in it in return lol

I don't mind stacking champions but at least I feel like Cass/Nasus and now Kindred have to actually work for theirs. Cass needs to either keep enemies poisoned or use her MP to keep creeps poisoned. Nasus has to ignore the rest of the world for 30+ min, and Kindred has to sneak into the enemy jng or successfully gank 6+ times. Veigar just has to play and doesn't even need to last hit champs with a particular move, just kill them (and his ult is point and cick + based off opponent's AP so if they do well and are Ap they get punished cause....?)

If they nerfed his scaling on some of his stuff and the bonus AP ratio on his ult he'd probably be ok. Probably. His ult doesn't need to be point and click and scale with his passive, his own AP items, AND the enemy AP items all at the same time.

ehh, i don't think you get punished for doing well, the whole scaling off opponent's ap barely even matters. like, with 1 ap ratio on two spells he one shots everyone, not just mages. like obviously there's an edge against mages but it's not like he has trouble killing adcs or whatever.

i feel like if he was supposed to be anti-ap it'd be nice if all his spells had that in exchange for some base dmg cut, but u know, that'd make him very situational, which has its pros and cons and whatnot

and stacking is dumb imo cos it never leads to interesting gameplay. nasus has a ton of crap built on his kit to ignore you unless you're playing like riven or something. sion health stacking and thresh armor/ap stacking are also very much unnoticed, tho at least in thresh's case his soul gathering is interesting at least. same with bard.

cassi has a limit but yeah, as far as stacking champions go at least her stacking involves fighting champions which is a big step up imo

I love Tahm specifically because I can mother hen out of position teammates. I saved a Kayle 3 times when an enemy Malphite tried to dive her last night, I ate her as she flew up and then ran out of range. I saved a Twitch twice in lane when Blitzcrank pulled him onto Jinx chompers,. Ashe arrow stun, Veigar combo, Thresh combo, Braum buildup, i have juked SO MANY things for so many people.

And I feel like people are silly complaining that is OP rather than the ridiculous stunlocks or instant HP poof-killing things that the enemy did. "Oh Tahm stopped my unstoppable combo and is running away in terror! Broken! OP!" lol ok.

Tahm still isn't the best peeler, (we have point n click stun supports) the best disengager (Janna and Braum exist), the best 1 v 1 support (TIBBERS!) or any of that.

I will say this, his Devour max HP% and his ult's passive could probably stand to be looked at, cause that's just tacked on extra dmg.

he's just annoying

you know fizz that super fun champion that you're always so happy when he presses a button and turns untargeteable which is the most fun thing ever specially since he dodged ur 80s cd ult with it? well this guy does that to others!

it's boring to play against someone who's only job in life is to prevent u from doing stuff and someone that does it that easily. and this applies to janna too but at least janna is squishy and u can kill her, or something.

i dunno, janna sucks too

 

[Stone Ocean]

that's just boring noot

like literally u just grabbed a cool item and took away its fun active and just put a bunch of stats in it in return lol

Bork active is boring as shit specially since "slowing nuke" is Gunblade's thing

ADCs need stats and passives not shit with a minute+ CD

 

[zkylon]

adc itemization is getting reworked for a reason u know

bundle of stats items suck

 

[Stone Ocean]

adc itemization is getting reworked for a reason u know

bundle of stats items suck

That's where the cool passives come in

Actives are for pleb champions that can't CARRY

 

[Fracas]

need more armor pen/cdr items

then you guys can understand the full power of caster 40% cdr lucian

 

[zkylon]

That's where the cool passives come in

Actives are for pleb champions that can't CARRY

i think the only cool adc passive is trinity force?

edit: maybe new bt passive? but not really? or stattik shiv?

 

[NCR Redslayer]

Well I just experienced my first hard crash on LoL.

Guess I'll go play Dota 2.

 

[Stone Ocean]

i think the only cool adc passive is trinity force?

edit: maybe new bt passive? but not really? or stattik shiv?

Shiv, BT, Bork, Runaans and Reaver are all cool passives meant to give you new interactions aside from raw damage numbers. Sure they're not perfect, but for an autoattacky glass cannon role this is the type of thing I'm looking for, not active bullshit that will 100% mean an item with shite gold or stat efficiency that will end up being abused by bruisers like old Bork.

 

[zkylon]

dont get me wrong, im not against passives

just saying, grabbing bjork and putting it more ad in exchange for as and calling it a different item is kind of dumb

also i dunno if bruisers abuse adc items. can't remember many examples but wasn't bjork like the only one? i mean u can say frozen mallet or whatever but that item was never really used by adcs in teh first place

 

[Ambition]

Porque?

 

[Newt]

dont get me wrong, im not against passives

just saying, grabbing bjork and putting it more ad in exchange for as and calling it a different item is kind of dumb

also i dunno if bruisers abuse adc items. can't remember many examples but wasn't bjork like the only one? i mean u can say frozen mallet or whatever but that item was never really used by adcs in teh first place

Stupid Zky.

 

[zkylon]

Porque?

ffs dude it's not hard to link an image

these posts of yours are super annoying -__-

 

[Newt]

ffs it's not hard to link an image dude

these posts of yours are super annoying -__-

Why you getting so annoyed Zky? That's supposed to be my job .

 

[zkylon]

stupid noot

 

[Ambition]

http://s18.postimg.org/uoygwx9pz/tyuty.png

srry :'(