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League of Legends |OT10| Botlane Was A Mistake, It's Nothing But Thresh

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zkylon

zkylewd
At least they've made it clear they'll revert the AP pricing changes if they suck so there's that I guess}
yeah that's why i was talking about this patch only

riot is super earnest in wanting to help one class, but they tend to hilariously overdo it and then go into ABORT mode and just start hacking away until it's nice and pretty again

but this patch is the adc patch, and so everyone that isn't an adc gets nerfed lol
 
but so will adcs?

Sure, but the narrative that mages are getting nerfed is crazy.

That's the funny part, they're reducing the price on ADC items and adding more ADC items, and they're just increasing the price on Mage items while simultaneously nerfing them(The important one atleast, Zhongyas)(Instead of giving a power increase relevant to the cost, like BF sword went down in price and power).

This is an extremely stupid change.

Categorically untrue. IE lost 15 AD and is 200 less, nerf.

Essence Reaver is 400g more expensive.

BotRK is more expensive and less powerful

BT is more expensive with less AD.

Tonnes of AD items had power increases/decreases to go along with cost increases/decreases, as well as just straight nerfs.

A lot is the same with AP itemisation. Some strong items getting nerfed, some items (Lich Bane, Nashor's Tooth, WotA, Abyssal, RoA getting buffed and all other items having cost adjusted relative to new gold flow.

Please don't spread misinformation to try and fit whatever narrative you're pushing here
 

ChrisD

Member
omg this game's matchmaking can suck * at times

Pit me against a 718 win Platinum IV Jayce, why don't you.

I have 62 and I'm unranked. >_>
 
Categorically untrue. IE lost 15 AD and is 200 less, nerf.

Essence Reaver is 400g more expensive.

BotRK is more expensive and less powerful

BT is more expensive with less AD.

Tonnes of AD items had power increases/decreases to go along with cost increases/decreases, as well as just straight nerfs.

A lot is the same with AP itemisation. Some strong items getting nerfed, some items (Lich Bane, Nashor's Tooth, WotA, Abyssal, RoA getting buffed and all other items having cost adjusted relative to new gold flow.

Please don't spread misinformation to try and fit whatever narrative you're pushing here

I noticed that after looking at it.

Still though, ADCs getting alot more options will tilt the favor of 'importance' towards them. It's bad enough they get a babysitter in lane.
 

Leezard

Member
Sure, but the narrative that mages are getting nerfed is crazy.



Categorically untrue. IE lost 15 AD and is 200 less, nerf.

Essence Reaver is 400g more expensive.

BotRK is more expensive and less powerful

BT is more expensive with less AD.

Tonnes of AD items had power increases/decreases to go along with cost increases/decreases, as well as just straight nerfs.

A lot is the same with AP itemisation. Some strong items getting nerfed, some items (Lich Bane, Nashor's Tooth, WotA, Abyssal, RoA getting buffed and all other items having cost adjusted relative to new gold flow.

Please don't spread misinformation to try and fit whatever narrative you're pushing here

To add to this with another relevant early game example, BF sword lost 10 AD for being 250 gold cheaper - also a nerf. 10 ad is worth 360 gold.
 
I noticed that after looking at it.

Still though, ADCs getting alot more options will tilt the favor of 'importance' towards them. It's bad enough they get a babysitter in lane.

It's necessary though. ADCs building the same cookie cutter stat sticks every game was boring and not good for the game, not to mention that the previous itemisation changes to mages, juggernaut reworks and items and even last season's jungle changes had ADCs fall by the wayside. Their "weak early, strong late" power fantasy fell by the wayside and every other lane had far more impact on the game.

Yes these changes could be too much one way or the other, BUT the changes are needed to make the class much more diverse and to help those champions better fulfil their fantasy and their role's fantasy.

Obviously I'm not a designer so this is just my personal opinion as a player, but I feel this will only make the game better.
 

zkylon

zkylewd
Sure, but the narrative that mages are getting nerfed is crazy.
adc items got tweaked with tradeoffs, while mage/assassin items got nerfed. roa and wota and nashors tooth don't count as mage items since like 3 champions at best buy one of those.

just in items you're gonna buy every single game with every single ap mid:
deathcap - 300g more
rylais/ludens/zhonyas - 200/200/500g more
morellos/athenes - 250/100g more
void staff - 150g more

that's like 1.25k more in every single game.

adcs have like ie is a bit weaker but it's cheaper, or essence reaver is 400g more expensive but it's now a super cool item. bjork is more expensive but pd and stattik arent, etc.

i don't know how mages aren't relatively weaker in this situation (and tanks too i guess since they've had many items price adjusted)
 
adc items got tweaked with tradeoffs, while mage/assassin items got nerfed. roa and wota and nashors tooth don't count as mage items since like 3 champions at best buy one of those.

just in items you're gonna buy every single game with every single ap mid:
deathcap - 300g more
rylais/ludens/zhonyas - 200/200/500g more
morellos/athenes - 250/100g more
void staff - 150g more

that's like 1.25k more in every single game.

adcs have like ie is a bit weaker but it's cheaper, or essence reaver is 400g more expensive but it's now a super cool item. bjork is more expensive but pd and stattik arent, etc.

i don't know how mages aren't relatively weaker in this situation (and tanks too i guess since they've had many items price adjusted)

1.25k gold you're absolutely going to have because of the gold pacing changes.

Honestly when you are playing those games you will notice yourself getting those items at the same time or quicker.
 

zkylon

zkylewd
1.25k gold you're absolutely going to have because of the gold pacing changes.

Honestly when you are playing those games you will notice yourself getting those items at the same time or quicker.
yeah but relatively to other classes (like probably ad assassins) you're now weaker because they also have that 1.25k gold but you have to spend it on the same stuff as before. adcs or tanks or ad assassins or supports might have their builds costs increased in like 800g so they have a 400g "buff" compared to you

i'll concede that it's a "try it for myself" kind of thing but i don't like things like zhonyas being 500g more expensive when ad champions get buffed all over and i also don't like that anivia and veigar got randomly buffed while champions that actually buy blue pots like lb didn't
 
also, mages have been the dominant mid lane class through the entire season and had big buffs in the itemisation changes.

Even if these changes end up being a net slight nerf to them, I'm ok with that. Other things need their time to shine and I'm sick of playing against Ahri, Lux, LeBlanc, Orianna, Viktor etc. etc.
 

zkylon

zkylewd
i think u should prepare for a whole lot of lulu in this meta

also if other things needed time to shine adcs certainly weren't it

or fiora who im imagine gonna get super massively buffed in this meta

wait a minute....
 
It's necessary though. ADCs building the same cookie cutter stat sticks every game was boring and not good for the game, not to mention that the previous itemisation changes to mages, juggernaut reworks and items and even last season's jungle changes had ADCs fall by the wayside. Their "weak early, strong late" power fantasy fell by the wayside and every other lane had far more impact on the game.

Yes these changes could be too much one way or the other, BUT the changes are needed to make the class much more diverse and to help those champions better fulfil their fantasy and their role's fantasy.

Obviously I'm not a designer so this is just my personal opinion as a player, but I feel this will only make the game better.

I would say teleport helped tops have more impact early-mid game.
Mages are...mages. Being in mid allows them to flow between top and bot.
ADCs have always been....ADCs. After a while, left unchecked they become monsters whether or not their early game was bad or good.

Even now in pro games, the focus of having a strong ADC is incredibly important. That's just how the game feels. Between the ADC reworks and the new items they're getting, to me it seems like it pigeon-holes the idea that ADCs are what a match should revolve around.

Like, the change with grievous wounds...it only affects self healing....the only reason you would nerf grievous wounds like that is to buff bottom lane. Very rarely do you have a top or mid lane that can give an incredible heal to an ally. That's usually relegated to just support who fill in the healer role.

It's a huge buff to characters like Soraka or Sona, and an indirect buff to ADCs early games because of that fact. Suddenly Ignite isn't all that great at bottom lane, and kill lanes are phased out just like that because of ignites weakness in bot lane. So it's going to create this cycle, if grievous wounds aren't reverted to what it was, of nerfing the healers yet again.

also, mages have been the dominant mid lane class through the entire season and had big buffs in the itemisation changes.

Even if these changes end up being a net slight nerf to them, I'm ok with that. Other things need their time to shine and I'm sick of playing against Ahri, Lux, LeBlanc, Orianna, Viktor etc. etc.

hate to break it to you, but those mages are still going to be played. They weren't played because of the items, I can tell you that much up front. If you don't understand why they were played, then well..
 

JulianImp

Member
omg this game's matchmaking can suck * at times

Pit me against a 718 win Platinum IV Jayce, why don't you.

I have 62 and I'm unranked. >_>

How do you check that?

I'm almost at level 26 and I'm still seeing at least one afk or awfully bad player per game (on either team). There've been a couple back-and-forth games among the ones I've played, but so far most of them tend to be one-sided and only get worse as time goes on.

I think I'm still at a point where I'm living in my own little world at bot, so most of the time I stay completely unaware about top (and sometimes mid) laners until we reach the late-game. Anyone got any tips for getting a better view of the global game instead of bottling myself up in my lane? For example, I tend to get really anxious when my camera's not on myself unless it's just set-up time, since I still rely on the camera and probably am not glancing at the mini-map as often as I should.
 
AD champs didn't get buffed all over that much. Not having % total armor pen is a big deal, specially against squishies like mages.

Zhonyas might have its numbers nerfed but the tankiness it gives you is a bigger deal now.
 
I would say teleport helped tops have more impact early-mid game.
Mages are...mages. Being in mid allows them to flow between top and bot.
ADCs have always been....ADCs. After a while, left unchecked they become monsters whether or not their early game was bad or good.

Even now in pro games, the focus of having a strong ADC is incredibly important. That's just how the game feels. Between the ADC reworks and the new items they're getting, to me it seems like it pigeon-holes the idea that ADCs are what a match should revolve around.

Like, the change with grievous wounds...it only affects self healing....the only reason you would nerf grievous wounds like that is to buff bottom lane. Very rarely do you have a top or mid lane that can give an incredible heal to an ally. That's usually relegated to just support who fill in the healer role.

It's a huge buff to characters like Soraka or Sona, and an indirect buff to ADCs early games because of that fact. Suddenly Ignite isn't all that great at bottom lane, and kill lanes are phased out just like that because of ignites weakness in bot lane. So it's going to create this cycle, if grievous wounds aren't reverted to what it was, of nerfing the healers yet again.



hate to break it to you, but those mages are still going to be played. They weren't played because of the items, I can tell you that much up front. If you don't understand why they were played, then well..

Man, Grievous Wounds wouldn't exist as a mechanic if it weren't for the self-healing monsters like Mundo and Vlad that would be out of control. Re-purposing it to fit that is good, and if champions like Soraka or Sona are OP they'll get nerfed. Though changing Grievous wounds won't suddenly make Sona a strong pick.

With the AD itemisation changes I guarantee you're going to see more Assassins played, especially if the mage counterparts are slightly weaker overall and with ADCs becoming better.
 

jerd

Member
Man, Grievous Wounds wouldn't exist as a mechanic if it weren't for the self-healing monsters like Mundo and Vlad that would be out of control. Re-purposing it to fit that is good, and if champions like Soraka or Sona are OP they'll get nerfed. Though changing Grievous wounds won't suddenly make Sona a strong pick.

With the AD itemisation changes I guarantee you're going to see more Assassins played, especially if the mage counterparts are slightly weaker overall and with ADCs becoming better.

I'd be willing to bet soraka's win rate approaches or surpasses 60% with this change and the healing mastery.

one W from raka completely negates an ignite plus some now
 
I don't get why this was done.
Grievous Wounds now only affects self-healing instead of all healing
Not sure if I like that change.
Man, Grievous Wounds wouldn't exist as a mechanic if it weren't for the self-healing monsters like Mundo and Vlad that would be out of control. Re-purposing it to fit that is good, and if champions like Soraka or Sona are OP they'll get nerfed. Though changing Grievous wounds won't suddenly make Sona a strong pick.
Ah. Never mind. I guess we'll see how it goes.
 

ChrisD

Member
How do you check that?

I'm almost at level 26 and I'm still seeing at least one afk or awfully bad player per game (on either team). There've been a couple back-and-forth games among the ones I've played, but so far most of them tend to be one-sided and only get worse as time goes on.

I think I'm still at a point where I'm living in my own little world at bot, so most of the time I stay completely unaware about top (and sometimes mid) laners until we reach the late-game. Anyone got any tips for getting a better view of the global game instead of bottling myself up in my lane? For example, I tend to get really anxious when my camera's not on myself unless it's just set-up time, since I still rely on the camera and probably am not glancing at the mini-map as often as I should.

I just checked his Profile after the game through Recently Played list. You can check the wins at the results screen just by hovering over their name, but I'm sure you knew that part.

Most games are super snowbally it seems. Usually by around the fifteen minute mark you can put in a safe prediction on who's going to win. It's an issue I can't see being fixed due to dealing with ten humans of varying skill levels, states of mind, who will always mesh differently.

It makes the tug-of-war matches that much funner? That's good.

I have the same issue with bot focus. I try to check in to the other lanes at times by moving the map over, but I don't follow up anything with it. It's just like, "oh, k they're doing good/bad. good to know."


ALSO I JUST GOT MY FIRST S+ RANK, AND I MADE THE MOST MONEY IN THE GAME AS SONA (Unintentional Kill Steal Queen, ty based Q Power Chord)
 

zkylon

zkylewd
removing grievous wounds would be great, it's a lame mechanic that feels bad for everyone

feels bad to mundo that someone randomly picks pre-rework mf and suddenly his ult sucks and it sucks for me as a mid that morellos has that shitty passive instead of something actually fun

the changes are kind of weird, i sure hope soraka doesn't get any more popular

That minion wave pushing advantadge change feels so random. Dunno what's trying to accomplish.
anti-stall mechanic

Talon without flask sounds like a joke
i guess he can start corrupting pot but yea
 

JulianImp

Member
That minion wave pushing advantadge change feels so random. Dunno what's trying to accomplish.

I'd say it's a positive feedback mechanic that gives the team in the lead an advantage proportional to how far ahead they are, lowering the chance of the opposing team making a comeback by making their minion waves weaker than their opponents', and thus forcing their hand in situations where they previously would've had more time before enemy minions could get through even without enemy champions helping push the lane.

The warding support items sound interesting, so I guess I'll be experimenting around with them for a bit to see when to get a warding tier 3 support item for the additional space and when to sacrifice space in return for the active ability.
 
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