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League of Legends |OT10| Botlane Was A Mistake, It's Nothing But Thresh

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zkylon

zkylewd
only thing you need to beat rengar is ♪ superior tactics ♪

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I like the idea of Rengar as a stealth tank jungler. Jump in to initiate, maybe give him a terrify instead of burst damage. Maybe a mini fling or something after the bola, so that he can jump on the ADC, net them, drag them back, drop them at his teams feet like a house cat does. That's something that doesn't really exist now in game.

I'd lose the ult entirely. It only exists to give him assassin power when the enemy team is playing carefully. Just give him an ult passive that lets him jump on you from the open to initiate a fight. Then you can see him coming, but can't stop the jump, which I think is actually better.
i kind of really like the idea of him having terrify

that's the way he kind of sounds to me, like he should be chasing you and cornering you, like you should be running away from him

kinda like in the a new dawn trailer
 

drawkcaB

Member
Dump Rengar's current ultimate. Then, dump "leaps from bushes" from his passive; move that to his ultimate. He gets the leap from bushes as-is at level 1. His ultimate active adds additional effects to the passive (stealth, speed, leap at target after exiting bush). Since the passive is tied to being in a bush, that means that the ultimate can only be activated while in a bush. Since that restricts where on the map Rengar can activate his ultimate, it creates more counterplay via proper warding of nearby bushes. Riot would also have the option of moving the stealth portion to level 11 or 16 when carries are more likely to be protected via grouping.
 
Dump Rengar's current ultimate. Then, dump "leaps from bushes" from his passive; move that to his ultimate. He gets the leap from bushes as-is at level 1. His ultimate active adds additional effects to the passive (stealth, speed, leap at target after exiting bush). Since the passive is tied to being in a bush, that means that the ultimate can only be activated while in a bush. Since that restricts where on the map Rengar can activate his ultimate, it creates more counterplay via proper warding of nearby bushes. Riot would also have the option of moving the stealth portion to level 11 or 16 when carries are more likely to be protected via grouping.

How is any of that fun for the Rengar player though?

I think that's a hamfisted way of trying to solve his kit without looking at the real problems Rengar has in terms of game health.

Is the stealth or jumping from bushes or any other mechanic on his ult the issue, or is it the fact that he can burst you from 100-0 without you being able to react.

My idea for Rengar's fantasy was that he was this relentless predator that chased down his foes with speed and when he got on them he would engage in savagery, but he would require some time to do that. Stealth and speed allowed him to choose his approach path, and he would jump on his target and deal some high but consistent DPS if he was allowed to stay on them.

That's why I actually like the idea of the Ferocity system, just not its current application. Ferocity shouldn't be about building up to 5 stacks, going invisible and oneshotting someone.

It should be about giving you spikes in your DPS as a reward for picking your isolated target and sticking to them.

I'd be interested in seeing a version of Rengar which is much more about consistent DPS, with spikes in that due to Ferocity empowered abilities. Maybe lower Ferocity stacks from 5 to 3 to really get that feeling of attacking someone fast, in their face, clawing at them and tearing them apart with awesome Ferocity attacks as opposed to the Rengar now which has no counterplay.

The current combination of stealth and oneshot-level burst is too much.

He'd probably need a way to get out if shit got bad though. Maybe a kill could reactivate a shorter duration stealth? So if he got his 3-5 seconds of DPS on a squishy (instead of the 0.5 now...), got the kill and restealthed for a shorter duration to make his escape or pick someone else to maul.

That fits the Rengar fantasy a lot more imo. You should be frantically trying to get him off you has he's just tearing you up, rather than hoping you can knock him away mid-jump or something so he doesn't instakill you.
 
That is already Warwick's territory though. Literally clawing you a lot and becoming sticky if you get low.

I feel Rengar is more fitting of that style of play that Warwick though. I dunno, Warwick is like a worse representation of that predator motif right now. When eventually the champ up team gets around to Warwick I'd like to see them go back to the drawing board on what he's about.

To me Warwick's less about stalking his prey and picking them off, he should be more ravenous, bullish. He chases someone, goes through everyone and lifesteals like crazy. Lower DPS but high durability. He shouldn't care about anyone else on him, he just hard tunnels on whoever he sees.

Warwick as a werewolf feels more berserker, ravenous creature as opposed to Rengar's more measured, calculated predatory approach.
 

zkylon

zkylewd
That is already Warwick's territory though. Literally clawing you a lot and becoming sticky if you get low.
yeah

like i said before, i think rengar has deeper issues than just kit, he's probably one of the champions with the weakest identity in the game because his identity overalps with so many other champions
 

zkylon

zkylewd
no, sona has an identity, she's the aura lady. no one else in the game shares that space with her

problem with sona is that auras are a lot of invisible power that doesn't feel good for anyone, but she's definitely different from nami or soraka
 
yeah

like i said before, i think rengar has deeper issues than just kit, he's probably one of the champions with the weakest identity in the game because his identity overalps with so many other champions

Ehh, I disagree. He shares some similar themes with other champions (stealth mainly), but he's very different to Eve and Shaco, and even Kha'Zix.

Eve is about using your enemies' lack of information against them. Skirting around the fight, sneaking by people.

Shaco's stealth is about how slippery he is. He can appear here, there and everywhere and slip out without you knowing where he's gone.

Kha'Zix's is used in the heat of the fight, allowing him to be slippery so he can reposition and isolate again.

Rengar is more about picking a target, leaping on them and running a train on them. He has a pretty clear identity as that predatorial jungler, it just needs to be better executed on. I love the skills he has, I think they're very fitting of his character. Savagery for... well, savagery. Battle Roar for intimidation and psyching himself up. Bola as the predator's tool for making sure his prey doesn't get away, and his ult to start the hunt, to stalk his prey and get on them when he needs to.

His fantasy just needs to be delivered on better and he needs some counterplay.
 

zkylon

zkylewd
warwick's identity is vicious rabid thing that chews through your team lifestealing all the way
nidalee is a huntress that places traps and once she marks you you can't get away and she has brush interaction as well
khazix is a killer mantis bug thing that looks for isolated people and kills them
kindred is someone who marks her prey and hunts them down getting buffs for doing so
eve creates paranoia on her enemies through invisibility

rengar is like a remix of all those ideas poorly blended together.

he's warwick but invisible and if he gets his burst olaf'd he'll just be rework warwick but invisible lol (i imagine rework warwick will also be a dps thing)

he's exactly the kind of thing that riot says doesn't have an identity of his own. he doesn't do anything special outside of his bullshit invisible oneshotting and when you remove that and give him dps instead he'll just be a regular bruiser

i think his kit can be salvageable into something that's not embarassing to be in the game but rito needs to go back to the drawing board with his design because it's absolutely terrible and overcrowded
 

pigeon

Banned
Yeah, the problem I have is that in isolation when you say "what's Rengar's identity" the answer is "he's a hunter who stalks his prey from stealth!" and that's fine.

But then you have Kha'Zix, who is literally a hunter who stalks his prey from stealth. And Nidalee, who is ALSO a huntress, likes hiding, etc. etc. And Eve, and Warwick, and etc. etc. on through half the jungle champs in the game who all like to hide and jump on people.

So maybe what Rengar needs is, like, a Kha'Zix rework first so that we can figure out who Rengar is supposed to be. Like, is Kha'Zix supposed to be the ultimate natural hunter and Rengar the ultimate intelligent hunter? (Except Rango is a lion, lol.) That's workable, although probably pretty hard to realize in a design. But right now Rengar and Kha'Zix just feel like buddies who do extra damage from the bush, have a stealth ult, have a self-heal, have a slow, have a leap, and have a bursty melee attack. Jesus, they're identical.

Thinking about it more, I'd kind of like a Rengar ult that's designed as an execute. He's supposed to be good at taking trophies, so let him do that when the enemy gets low. Then he can still jump on people and kill them and inspire terror, just not from 100.
 
That's outdated and bad overall. Don't buy Shiv, dont stack Shiv Cannon, don't buy Trinity or Mallet (lol)
Any guide about Tristana? I feel she does nothing in early game
Early game Trist is more reactive, you want to just safely farm until something happens. Once you hit 2 the enemy has to respect you big time. Enemy burns CC? It's time to WE on their carry then W out. By 4 you can throw an E and an auto or two every now and then for some poke. Your level 6 spike is huge so missplays by the enemy support can easily end in lost summoners or kills, just W in and blow them up.
 
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Least it wont be major changes I guess. Think the second part you could apply to other champs as well (The just w the wave part). Long as playstyle remains the same for the most part, should be ok.
 
That's outdated and bad overall. Don't buy Shiv, dont stack Shiv Cannon, don't buy Trinity or Mallet (lol)
.

o you know of a better one?
And I normally don't get shiv, I rush RFC then the boots cause she's painfully slow and then I got for IE. Then I go for BT ... I love BT and I see MFs rushing it but I figured that I should Build for the DPS first with RFC and IE.
 

pigeon

Banned
o you know of a better one?
And I normally don't get shiv, I rush RFC then the boots cause she's painfully slow and then I got for IE. Then I go for BT ... I love BT and I see MFs rushing it but I figured that I should Build for the DPS first with RFC and IE.

That's mostly what the pros do, except that as a rule they grab either BF or Pickaxe (probably determined by buy timers) before starting RFC. Crit is a multiplier so you need some AD to be multiplied or you still won't do enough damage. Eventually those AD items will roll into IE.
 

zkylon

zkylewd
gypsylord about deadeye:
After the string of complex releases we've had for the last year and a half (Gnar, Azir, Kalista, Rek'sai, Bard, Ekko, Kindred) The Virtuoso was deliberately designed to be quite a bit more accessible when it comes to mechanics. Note that "accessible" does not mean "lacking in depth" or "something you've played before." He's neither of those. On the gameplay difficulty spectrum, I anticipate him being way easier than Azir, way harder than Garen, and somewhere in the middle between Jinx and Ekko.

i like this angle, good on them
 

Ferga

Member
If there is a tahm jungle, just go kill him at his buff. His first clear is god awful.

He goes to less than 200hp after the second camp
 
Rank 5 list is growing!

Ahri
Ashe
Blitz
Cait
Ekko
Garen
Illaoi
Jayce
Kassadin
LeBron
Lux Jam
Miss Fortune


Rank 3 or better atm:

Brand
Jinx
Kalista
Sivir
Teemo
Twisted Fate
Vi

Not sure who to work on next. Felling good about all of the above and it has me feeling good about the season start, but I'm concerned that my top pool is too shallow. Just Jayce, Illaoi, and Garen. Teemo on occasion. Maybe 4 is enough. I'd rather have a different AP option than Teemo. Just picking him tends to break your own team's spirits. But neither Rumble nor Ryze are my style at all. Never played Cho. Maybe Kayle?

Oh and I need to work on my support pool. I only feel confident with Blitz, Leona and Nami. And of those 3 I only play Blitz regularly. Yea, I think I'll work on Supports for awhile. Leona, Nami, and maybe Sona.
 
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