killatopak
Gold Member
Damn. Was starting to play rammus top.
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League of Legends |OT11| going
- Thread starter zkylon
- Start date
Damn. Was starting to play rammus top.
I mean, I don't think the solo queue plan ever made a ton of sense -- the game probably can't support two ranked queues. I know they knew this because that's why they rolled out dynamic queue instead of keeping solo queue and adding a multi queue!
So I think it was kind of weird for them to ever say they would do solo-only queue. I don't generally expect scheming out of Riot so I have to assume they for some reason thought it would work out, but I'm not clear where that idea came from.
I really doubt that anybody's life was going to get meaningfully better with the solo-only queue. I would much rather they spend the time fixing the issues with dynamic queue/new champ select like role prioritization.
So I think it was kind of weird for them to ever say they would do solo-only queue. I don't generally expect scheming out of Riot so I have to assume they for some reason thought it would work out, but I'm not clear where that idea came from.
I really doubt that anybody's life was going to get meaningfully better with the solo-only queue. I would much rather they spend the time fixing the issues with dynamic queue/new champ select like role prioritization.
I like the Udyr nerfs. They make sense. The hp regen might be a bit too much though.
Monkey stance nerfs are fine. You just never give blues now and you no longer have any leeway in what you want to buy as a second item (Can't buy health anymore, need to rush a glacial or sheen to keep up stacks).
But what the fuck at the rammus nerfs. He's very strong but he's situational as hell. If you go full AD or first pick a snowbally top laner, you should be punished. These nerfs are coming out of nowhere.
Monkey stance nerfs are fine. You just never give blues now and you no longer have any leeway in what you want to buy as a second item (Can't buy health anymore, need to rush a glacial or sheen to keep up stacks).
But what the fuck at the rammus nerfs. He's very strong but he's situational as hell. If you go full AD or first pick a snowbally top laner, you should be punished. These nerfs are coming out of nowhere.
Rammus's win rate in top lane is second for all top laners.
And it's DOWN from previous patches! It used to be 56%!
The deal with Rammus has never been that he wasn't strong -- he's always been pretty strong -- it's that this is the first time he's actually been popular in a long time. This was kind of inevitable for him.
The thing is, it's in Riot's best interest to have Dynamic Queue™ (I saw a guy on Reddit do this, I love it) be the main ranked queue. Riot wants people to play League with their friends, because it's most likely shown to lead to more new players, said new players sticking with the game, and most importantly, those players (who are now experienced) spending money on skins, or whatever. Do I agree with this Facebook-ization of League as we know it? Not really, but that's not important. To be honest, I think that it's impossible for Solo and Dynamic Queue™ to co-exist, at least in their current form, not just because of the splitting of the player-base, but because of New Champ Select making it more difficult for players to get queued up into a game. High-elo players are already complaining about high queue times, it would only exacerbate the issue.
What makes me curious, is why they don't borrow ideas from DOTA's match-making, as it seems to work pretty well. I think this is how DOTA's system works:
- Players have 2 separate (visible) MMR's: Solo & Party
- Solo and grouped players are placed in the same matchmaking pool
- Solo players are normally matched up against other solo players, but (in low volume times) can only play with or against pre-made teams of 3 at the most.
- 5 man teams almost always go against other 5 man teams
- 4 man queues aren't allowed (It's not hard to find a #5, the reasoning goes)
It seems like this would work well for League, and would prevent a lot of the playerbase-splitting that would come from having both queues, as both Solo and Dynamic Queue™ would be blended into a mash of each other's best elements. Hopefully with some tweaks we could eventually find a happy medium in which both parties would be satisfied. There's probably some reason why this isn't able to be implemented verbatim (copyright?), but Lyte and co. are in a pretty tight spot, and I don't think doing a complete overhaul like this would fly right now, especially since they're so far ahead with Dynamic Queue™ in its current iteration.
Moving back into reality, I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually get the run-around a few months later, and Solo Q is eventually scrapped. It's Riot's game at the end of the day, and they're probably going to make that final call regardless of how the hardcore Redditors feel about it.
It's kind of funny though, Riot's like that genie you get when rubbing a lamp. You get what you wish for, but with hilarious unintended consequences.
EDIT: A word
What makes me curious, is why they don't borrow ideas from DOTA's match-making, as it seems to work pretty well. I think this is how DOTA's system works:
- Players have 2 separate (visible) MMR's: Solo & Party
- Solo and grouped players are placed in the same matchmaking pool
- Solo players are normally matched up against other solo players, but (in low volume times) can only play with or against pre-made teams of 3 at the most.
- 5 man teams almost always go against other 5 man teams
- 4 man queues aren't allowed (It's not hard to find a #5, the reasoning goes)
It seems like this would work well for League, and would prevent a lot of the playerbase-splitting that would come from having both queues, as both Solo and Dynamic Queue™ would be blended into a mash of each other's best elements. Hopefully with some tweaks we could eventually find a happy medium in which both parties would be satisfied. There's probably some reason why this isn't able to be implemented verbatim (copyright?), but Lyte and co. are in a pretty tight spot, and I don't think doing a complete overhaul like this would fly right now, especially since they're so far ahead with Dynamic Queue™ in its current iteration.
Moving back into reality, I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually get the run-around a few months later, and Solo Q is eventually scrapped. It's Riot's game at the end of the day, and they're probably going to make that final call regardless of how the hardcore Redditors feel about it.
It's kind of funny though, Riot's like that genie you get when rubbing a lamp. You get what you wish for, but with hilarious unintended consequences.
Dynamic Queue™
EDIT: A word
Riot is probably going to half to put out some kind of half assed solo q since people are so worked up over it and it looks bad but it seems like such a waste of time. They should never have promised it in the first place. They should have released dynamic queue, got it all fixed up like it is now, put out a statement that said "99% of your games are against similarly queued teams, you're not losing because the enemy has an advantage you're losing because you suck" and been done with it. Now they have to deal with the BUT YOU PROMISED!!!
Their relationship with the community is really good most of the time but it bites them in the ass whenever they try to please everyone
Their relationship with the community is really good most of the time but it bites them in the ass whenever they try to please everyone
1. Solo queue will be much more competitive becaue of point 2.
2. With dynamic, you can't tell who played with others to get to their current rank. I don't want to play with players who got to their rank by playing with 3 or 4 other people because the majority of time at a higher elo they will be worse than the people who played solo all the way up. I know from other games this to be true.
3. There won't be random pairings of people all over the place, e.g. 1 solo 4 premades which will happen quite a lot I'd guess. Or me who is solo queued versus a Mid/Jungle duo.
What's people issue with Dynamic queue? I can't quite grasp it yet and I play solo 90% of the time. Yeah I've had bad games with douche parties but it has been like a couple of games out of a lot.
I think people forget how huge of a playerbase and think their bad experience is the norm (obviously no one should have a bad experience) League is, and I wish we had another "outlet" different from Reddit as I don't think they represent something that significant for the amount of attention they get.
My only complain is that as someone who puts Support as secondary it's basically become my primary role lol but everything else has basically been the same to me.
I think people forget how huge of a playerbase and think their bad experience is the norm (obviously no one should have a bad experience) League is, and I wish we had another "outlet" different from Reddit as I don't think they represent something that significant for the amount of attention they get.
My only complain is that as someone who puts Support as secondary it's basically become my primary role lol but everything else has basically been the same to me.
You know why, right?
It's because there's now an ADC in every lane + jungle.
heaven forbid a specialized champion rise to the top to combat the horrible meta that exists right now.
dear god yes
Everyone puts mid secondary because you have a higher chance to get your primary role if you do.
This leads to longer queue times for everyone since noone is filling the other roles. I'm a jungle main who supports pretty damn well but the moment I put support as my secondary, I will most likely get it. So I'm forced to put jungle/mid or jungle/top just so I can play the role I want to play instead of playing support 80% of the time.
It also places people who don't know how to mid into mid.
That probably hasn't been commented on that much but I've noticed that Mid is just a shit show now. You have people who don't play mid or know anything about the role against mid mains for more than 50% of games.
Mid has the most control over the map so games just lead to stomps and early surrenders if mid gets stomped and lose an early tower.
You want to know why you're getting 4 manned top or bot or you lose 2 drags before 20minutes? It's your mid's fault 90% of the time.
Number 3 is the only point I'd kind of agree with. The pairings of a premade make a difference. Jungle mid or duo bot might have a much better chance than say support top.
Number 2 is not really relevant with the tier enforcing. There's really not that big of a difference one tier. Gold and plat are pretty similar. Same with gold and silver. The difference isn't that stark, especially when you are playing one of your best roles. Diamond/Master yeah. There's some major differences but plat and below? Not so much.
To number 1. For the reason that you can play more coordinated groups, if anything it is more competitive. People are playing way better in their tiers than last season. Gold never looked this good. At best I'd say it's a wash weighing even footing of all solo queue vs a mix of premade only becasue of point number 3. Some premades are naturally going to synergize better. But I'd still lean to dynamic being more challenging.
I wouldn't want the boosted player on the enemy team either. I don't play ranked for free wins, I play it for the competition.
Most full of shit man at Riot. Pompous ass.
uh huh. Behold, I present you Twisted Fate ADC
(I was Zyra btw; I pulled a 4.00 KDA but just couldnt outplay this stupidity)
edit: Lol, everyone else on my team outdmg'ed him too
the real problem here is that riot suggested adding a solo q option as a way to getting rid of the backlash that dynamic queue got, and now is going back on their word
they should've just had the backbone back then to say "we made our point why we think solo q sux, deal with it"
it's a tricky situation, specially cos the dynamic queue experience isn't really a flat improvement. like, i've given up completely on playing solo or duo because my role is impossible to consistently get
they also removed ranked 5s and there's no solution for that and it just removed my favorite way of playing the game. dynamic 5s is not the same, it's taken a lot less seriously by everyone, it doesn't track any of your stats or let you use a team name or anything cool like that, it's not its own separate queue that makes you feel like you're growing as a team, we can't play together cos one of our friends is diamond and we have people in gold, etc.
so yeah, you dug this hole all by yourself rito, what can you say, it's understandable people is gonna be upset if they're deceived
they should've just had the backbone back then to say "we made our point why we think solo q sux, deal with it"
it's a tricky situation, specially cos the dynamic queue experience isn't really a flat improvement. like, i've given up completely on playing solo or duo because my role is impossible to consistently get
they also removed ranked 5s and there's no solution for that and it just removed my favorite way of playing the game. dynamic 5s is not the same, it's taken a lot less seriously by everyone, it doesn't track any of your stats or let you use a team name or anything cool like that, it's not its own separate queue that makes you feel like you're growing as a team, we can't play together cos one of our friends is diamond and we have people in gold, etc.
so yeah, you dug this hole all by yourself rito, what can you say, it's understandable people is gonna be upset if they're deceived
Black-Wind
Member
Interesting points.
Last night I had game that I think relates to this.
I was top Poppy and we had a Mid ... Nid.
I did well, won my lane and I'm popping off. Our team's doing well ... I decided to go help mid. Come to find out Nid is like 2 levels below me and is just siciding into the mid tower (Not tower diving, SUICIDE. Not even minions were there)
I'm like, wtf? She's killing herself and when she sees the enemy she just feeds. This pissed me off cause like I said I was popping OFF with Poppy. (It feels SOOOO GOOOOOD to ult away a Pantheon after he lands with HIS ult on a team mate, saving the WW jg with his tiny bit of HP. That was the moment I was waiting for in this match up and everyone saw that moment. Got tons of praise for that one)
We start grouping and she just runs off to AFK farm ... but we're turning it around bit by bit. Couldn't get the shit together though, the enemy Ahri was fed as fuck so even when she did try grouping with us it was too lil too late.
The first thing I type in the lobby is to report Nid, everyone agrees.
Then someone on my team tells me something I didn't know. Says that Nid started raging on skype when Ahri was beating her and just decided to RQ. I'm guessing Nid wanted JG and didn't know the ends and outs of mid so she just fucking threw the game when all she had to do was chill, play safe and let us carry since Top and Bot weren't in bad shape and I was being champed so hard I know their JG wasn't bothering ganking their winning lane. Not even talking to the other team mates in skype could keep her in line.
I personally DON'T like playing with pre-mades on my team or on the enemy team. If they're on my team either there's gonna be clear bias in who gets help or blame (Like how the Jg and Mid in one of my games were in the same group ... and I never saw that JG top side even though I was keeping the enemy Rock Tank at low health as Garen while being camped) or there's some layer of shit going on that I don't know about.
If their on the enemy team then they're making plays that you couldn't see coming and your team can't react fast enough.
spotted the redditor
muh lady
lost 5 games today, all in a row, all over before 25 minutes with the complete and total capitulation of top and mid lane, in each of the 5 games ive sat bot going even or ahead but not enough to snowball and the game has just crumbled around me.
After 5 times in a row you kinda feel the game hates you, I am so close to Diamond but these streaks keep happening, it almost seems pointless to try and play the longer game and farm out small advantages, either you decimate the other team or someone on the other team decimates you.
After 5 times in a row you kinda feel the game hates you, I am so close to Diamond but these streaks keep happening, it almost seems pointless to try and play the longer game and farm out small advantages, either you decimate the other team or someone on the other team decimates you.
the zven tweet is worthless cos it's 2 months old
i wonder what someone that's gonna bother explaining thinks, like montecristo or fruskurinn or jatt or thorin or whatever, not just random tweets (one of which only says solo q in all caps) by pros
cos like, pros are kind of dumb
i wonder what someone that's gonna bother explaining thinks, like montecristo or fruskurinn or jatt or thorin or whatever, not just random tweets (one of which only says solo q in all caps) by pros
cos like, pros are kind of dumb
It was in my twitter notifications. Only reason I linked it.
yeah but you ended up just making a salty post instead of strengthening your point
that hai tweet is literally him spamming the words solo q
maybe he just wants to voice how much he doesn't miss it?
i dunno
that's what happens when people are having this conversation over twitter instead of somewhere useful
heck, you can even say something useful through twitter if you're not an ass and post to the point stuff like scarra or montecristo do
that hai tweet is literally him spamming the words solo q
maybe he just wants to voice how much he doesn't miss it?
i dunno
that's what happens when people are having this conversation over twitter instead of somewhere useful
heck, you can even say something useful through twitter if you're not an ass and post to the point stuff like scarra or montecristo do
Seems like a strange thing to be upset about when NA solo queue was already a joke and didn't offer very high level play. Partly because of players like these.
Splitting queues was never going to be very positive for the game. In the same sense, ranked teams on the old system were also a joke when you could so easily disband teams and game the system. The stats being tracked were also ridiculous, but there were certainly nice presentational touches that you don't see in other parts of the client.
The new pick and ban system with selected roles for players has been a massive improvement for the game, and it makes sense that there'd be an emphasis on pushing players to group before a game, which is why you see something like dynamic queue being almost intrinsic to the way picks and bans work now. The numbers Riot is posting are pretty clear proof that players are impacted less by this dynamic queue boogeyman than they think they are.
killatopak
Gold Member
15 mins? It's nowhere near that for me. Mine is at most 8 mins in d5. What are your primary and secondary roles? It may have something to do with that.
wow, just played my first match in almost two weeks and won on 1st try. I saw enemy support was going Naut so I figured Alistar would be a wonderfully nasty counter. worked out nicely, went 3/2/15 for the win. This was just my second time playing Alistar too (at least in Rift; I used to get him all the time in ARAM)
this is on EUW, mid and adc
What division are you in?
Well unranked atm but last season I got to diamond 5 from plat 3 in like 1 day at the end of the season. Pretty sure I can get higher fairly easily if I actually played ranked.
Yeah I haven't played because I really cba with the dynamic queue bullshit.
Can't be assed to queue up like normal and get even teams 98.6% of the time?
i'm not sure you can call it bullshit if you've tried it
i don't think most people think their experience is worse than before, being able to secure your role most of the time far outweights whatever random elo boosted situation you can come up with, which is honestly a ridiculous reason to be against the system
and i feel like the quality of games has been higher as a result of playing with more people against other groups, you get more shotcalling and more teamplay rather than people fighting over who mids (spoiler: no one mids)
i really can't understand your problem with the system if you haven't played it, unless you really have a thing for solo q, in which case it's not a problem of the system, it's a problem with the existing system you want flat out not existing
i don't think most people think their experience is worse than before, being able to secure your role most of the time far outweights whatever random elo boosted situation you can come up with, which is honestly a ridiculous reason to be against the system
and i feel like the quality of games has been higher as a result of playing with more people against other groups, you get more shotcalling and more teamplay rather than people fighting over who mids (spoiler: no one mids)
i really can't understand your problem with the system if you haven't played it, unless you really have a thing for solo q, in which case it's not a problem of the system, it's a problem with the existing system you want flat out not existing
killatopak
Gold Member
Mid is definitely a contested pick so you're gonna get a longer queue time for that but as far as I know the adc role isn't. You should have been getting faster queue times but getting adc more than mid.
They said they fixed some stuff regarding queue times back in March 4 too.
Your second point makes no sense because there's statistically a better chance that the enemy team has one of those people than that person being on your team, since you take up one "slot".
Your third point has already been completely disputed, and uh, duo queue has been in the game since ever.
Your third point has already been completely disputed, and uh, duo queue has been in the game since ever.
point 3 is also very much not true
rito: "Teams made of solos and duos are matched against a premade 4 or premade 5 only 0.21% of the time, and players queueing solo get teamed up with 4 man premades 3% of the time."
point 2 is debatable, but in the end it's a team game and duos existed before, the ranking restrictions from before are still in place so you can't get carried by a diamond player or whatever (although i know a lot of people that have been carried by diamond players on smurfs both on this system and the old one), and the quality of the games i've encountered doesn't in any way give me the impression the average level of play has decreased. if anything, i feel games are a lot better because there's more coordination and communication thanks to people not being 5 strangers at each others' throat but 3 or 4 or 5 people collaborating in a team game
rito: "Teams made of solos and duos are matched against a premade 4 or premade 5 only 0.21% of the time, and players queueing solo get teamed up with 4 man premades 3% of the time."
point 2 is debatable, but in the end it's a team game and duos existed before, the ranking restrictions from before are still in place so you can't get carried by a diamond player or whatever (although i know a lot of people that have been carried by diamond players on smurfs both on this system and the old one), and the quality of the games i've encountered doesn't in any way give me the impression the average level of play has decreased. if anything, i feel games are a lot better because there's more coordination and communication thanks to people not being 5 strangers at each others' throat but 3 or 4 or 5 people collaborating in a team game
People have been boosted since the beginning of time. The old system had other problems. Specialized roles hones MMR. In the past a generalized MMR across all roles can leave people preforming tasks they are not remotely equipped to handle. Queue changes have been a huge net positive and I can't believe there are still people reaching back for the way things used to be.