That's what I said.
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League of Legends |OT3| Lizards are red, golems are blue. Give a leash or no gank 4 u
- Thread starter SouthernDragon
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That's what I said.
Ah okay.
The "bugs" add to the game. Like wavedashing in Smash Brothers Melee, they create complexity and interesting situations. The game would be worse by their removal.
I have no doubt that if Syndra could throw neutral enemies into her creep wave to aggro them, Riot would hotfix it in a moment. Icefrog wouldn't though, he would balance around it, and that is primarily why I prefer DOTA2 over League.
That's like complaining each team in the NFL has a quarterback. Doesn't make them play the same.
Role != lane assignment.
Just play custom games if you want cheese.
Anything can and probably will change. While these are all things I think or the way I perceive things much of this is to generate discussion. I don't really know how someone like Sejuani could even begin to compete with someone like Nunu or Udyr though.
Machete doesn't really have upgrade options as much as it has accommodations. Let's keep using Sejuani as an example. Realistically, what are her build options with Machete? The only truly viable outcome for it would be the health based Spirit of the Ancient Golem. Everyone needs boots. Not everyone needs or wants a Machete or Cloth Armor. Having to buy in on something you don't want sets you back.
80 health being a 20% heal for a jungler is a pretty generous estimate, and a sixty second ward is fairly useless for the buy in required on it. You are gambling on an invade to make it pay off, and throwing away most of your mastery points for something irrelevant outside of the first two minutes of the game. The investment isn't one point. It's speccing into the Utility mastery tree when you don't need to for little payoff.
Honestly much of the Utility tree really does not have a lot to offer junglers. I feel you would be better served by both the offensive and defensive trees. I think you're focusing on the first clear too much with any build that goes that deep into Utility. The defensive tree is fairly stacked with things tanks would want, and I can't see spending so few point in the tree paying off just so you get a biscuit and a sixty second ward.
What if boots were just removed from the game? That would be cool.
Yeah, I actually like it a lot for all my dumb complaining.
I'm not talking about cheese. I think there is no denying that the meta has become a bit stale as of late, and that for the average player the roles are super rigid, but I guess there is not convincing you otherwise.
You're certainly not trying very hard. What would be a different meta under your definition?
Hrm looking at it more i don't know.
I was like "Cool a tenacity item so I don't have to get mercs". But then... wait... I won't have early game mr now... hrm.
davidpdong
Member
So Noc with barrier and an ohmwrecker...tower diving machine!
i STILL dont fully understand what will and wont proc with hurricane...
i STILL dont fully understand what will and wont proc with hurricane...
dave is ok
aztek is ok
1/1/3 and 1/2/2 are both viable in Dota under the right circumstances.
By providing a better late game, generally speaking. The fuck does Udyr realistically do late game compared to Sejuani's initiate potential?
Everyone needs boots is the logic behind Season 2's Boots 3 start that everyone disliked anyway. I'm just at a loss here as to what Machete (or other options) realistically need for it to be this diversity option that people keep saying is missing. Merely saying "This isn't diversity" adds nothing to a discussion. I suppose that's what bothers me about those posts.
~13% (600 base Health) to 20% (400 base Health). That's basically the entire health range. 500 Health is a better average value to have assumed, I suppose, so a 16% Heal.
Gambling on an invade would be the same logic for any early game Ward so that's the value comparison here: A single point for an effective 75 Gold expense. Getting that for free is a rather large value in the grand scheme of things. And, do note, the utility route I outlined is primarily for the +50 Starting Gold for Machete/Flask start. Biscuit/Ward is a tacked on extra.
Now, is Biscuit/Ward worth it in the Machete/Flask start is another matter entirely. I'm probably in agreement with you on that front. Utility is actually rather low-to-mid stacked so getting to 12 points isn't actually hard to do. (Tier 1 is simple, Mastermind and Artificer are 5 points for Tier 2, Greed and Runic Affinity are 5 points in Tier 3).
I disagree that Utility here is a waste, however. +2% Movement, Summoner Spell CDR, Item Active CDR, and +Buff Duration are still nice to have.
Defensive tree is stacked in the mid tiers. We're talking about losing out on Legendary Armor (+1.25% Armor/MR per Point), Reinforced Armor (-5% Crit Damage per Point), and Honor Guard (-3% Damage Taken). And most Defense builds wouldn't even get all of them anyway (Legendary + Reinforced is 6 points in Tier 5).
Something that allows lanes to be run in different ways. Roaming from level 1, 2 double lanes, maybe a tri-lane that allows every lane to take equal advantage of the jungle camps, double jungle?
Cheese to me is all 5 mid push hard. i'm talking about comps that could survive the stages of the game with this setup. I've said it before, the map/jungle layout is pretty much what doesn't allow for this to happen, dragon control is what has made ADC/support take bot most of the times, blue control, etc.
Inskipp
Member
There have been some instances of teams pulling off roaming tactics in the past. M5 vs Dignitas in Hanover pops in mind. Admittedly they aren't very popular and difficult to replicate in soloq, which is a shame.
Same thing applies to double jungle as well. I've actually pulled it off a couple of times during this season in soloq, and every time it always relied on overwhelming the enemy and invading/ganking the shit out of them. Seeing how they are making the camps much more difficult, I don't think a double jungle would work out so well in S3.
I've seen double jungle, level 1 roaming, and no jungler (in low-level play), but I think your complaint is just that the games are different mechanically. Towers hurt more in lol so triple laning isn't as effective, jungling is more effective in lol so you don't usually neglect it. Maybe lol's problem is that the first ten minutes are the most boring part, while in dota it's the most exciting. I haven't played enough of dota to understand your POV completely, but I think you just like the core of the game you're used to. For me, lol is burnout and dota is GT. I just play what is more fun for me.
lol over 9000Sigh, after waiting for an hour for PBE to update...
I just bought Kid Icarus but I'd soooo much rather play on PBE right now.
Do we really have to do this? Udyr has significantly better zone and objective control, better clear times that will throw way more gold his way, and deals significantly more damage. He is also actually able to 1v1. Sejuani has a better late game than most champions but guess what, it doesn't matter when she is hyper team reliant and can't always get there.
Starting with X item instead of Y item doesn't offer more diversity in build options. I don't know what else I can say, particularly when Machete locks you down build options and boots do not. It also hurts diversity in what champions can be run. Who will you wind up seeing? Primarily champions that can take advantage of Machete.
It is not a ward. I would post this over fifty rows if there was pink text on the forum. Wards last five minutes. This lasts one. You shouldn't need a ward to avoid/stop invades anyways. Machete + Flask makes for a good start but I just don't see it being very viable for most champions or worth the investment. You really need potions on the clear and Flask is only going to offer a return of ~300 health vs. 1000 health you would see from five pots. It is a nice idea but in practice it isn't particularly viable looking.
kiunchbb
www.dictionary.com
It is a ward if you do a lot of level 1 invade, putting a ward on your own blue while invading enemy blue is a very popular tactic. Or putting one in red while you doing blue. I don't really see a point of wasting a full ward on your own jungle when you could use the mini one.
I think that full ward is 180 seconds, 3 minute, while the mini ward is 2 minute, correct me if I am wrong.
So let the support use theirs and you don't have to make your jungler run Utility Tree.
Real ward is three minutes. Mini ward is one minute. Dunno why I thought it was five.
Apparently we do.
Then the argument isn't even about the items or the jungle design at this point but about the champions themselves.
Machete works well on a lot of champions. Nautilus clears good times with a Machete start and it shores up his weak low level (e.g., sub Level 4) clears. Machete on champs with an already decent-to-good clear isn't an ideal starting item unless it lets them do something with it that they can't normally.
Edit: As for Machete locking you into build options ... I suppose. I'd argue that there's a good chance the Machete options will be built 100% of the time anyway, putting them in the same category as "Everyone gets Boots eventually."
Also, on that note, Udyr actually has a better starting item option in Doran's Blade, I believe. Better net sustain and doesn't need the true damage / Butcher from Machete.
Three, not five. And one minute is all you realistically need from defensive (or offensive) wards in the beginning of the game. Generally speaking, the time frame for those ward spots is rather limited: 60 seconds is about as long as you need the vision there.
There is no "one third Ward" comparison or else I'd have used the 25g value point (in which case, it's equivalent to Wealth). It comes down to: Do you place an actual Ward there or a temp Ward. Both give you the vision you need for the period of time that it's necessary.
There's a reason why I specified Utility Junglers for it. It's not meant for carry ones that benefit from offense or have no issues with sustain for their first few clears.
Flask refills. 5 Pots is 750 Health. A few junglers are Health/Mana starved on their initial (or first few) clears. Do note that Machete's goal is to allow for better early game clears while the better jungle rewards happen later on. The goal of Machete is to help jump start clears, Flask helps those that need the extra Health/Mana sustain for the first few clears.
Or I just have lots of old numbers stuck in my head. Like thinking potions still heal for 200.
I fear that Khazix will do horribly.
Be warned that jumping over dragon and baron walls can be difficult and you will probably fail when you need it to work most, since you have to be running directly towards the wall without it auto-pathing you to one side, before you jump.
They did that? OH GOD YES.
Kiunch, you don't need to worry about your cs as much! No idea how much the reduction is (or how much the passive GP10 change is) yet, however.
Be warned that doing jumping over dragon and baron walls can be difficult and you will probably fail when you need it to work most, since you have to be running directly towards the wall without it auto-pathing you to one side, before you jump.
I know that feel
Depends. More gold is good. It's not like you'd run him in the jungle right now. Also itemization will benefit AD casters and lower the power of pretty much everything defensive.
Auto every 5 seconds perfectly and it's 6 GP10!
Pickpocket op!
So many supports will die terrible deaths trying to run Pickpocket and get that gold.
i run him in the jungle right now, his ganks are extremely brutal.
He has no hard CC and goes poorly with most team comps if you don't have the tanky sort of champion who would usually be jungling. I play a lot of Kha'Zix but have no desire to run him jungle.
his passive is not that bad actually, granted its only slow but its good enough since he have extremely high damage.
i usually get extremely fed with him early game and lose because my garbage team is too fed to win (extremely bad decision and retard suicides 1v5).
agree that he doesnt run well with any team composition, but i dont give a fuck anymore because no one give a fuck about compositions in my low shitty elo.
if you get lucky and no one picked one of the 90% champions who counter him then this might happen.
want to try him mid, he seems really good anti ap character.
Just to be clear I think his passive is extremely good, particularly if you evolve his W. Synergizing perfectly with his ultimate I think he's one of the more intelligently designed champions in the game. It just isn't enough to make him as strong of a ganker compared to many other junglers.
There are team comps he works with. He just needs a strong initiator in the jungle who is capable of taking lots of damage, laying down CC, and generally drawing attention. He would actually go very well with someone like Sejuani.
Right. I'm referring to the base 13 GP10 that you have on Summoner's Rift. That is being increased.
i dont think i ever evolved w, need q to finish off tanky opponents, E for the reset and R to negate aoe damage and position in team fights.
i used to play only good hard cc support junglers (maokai/naut/skarner/chogath), but im done with that now because it doesnt matter if your team is bad, just play what you want and have fun while you can.
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