In the video they're worth less. 48 for wolf camp instead of 57. This is most notable with Wraith camp, where the entire camp is worth less than the big Wraith alone used to be. This is probably going to be a disaster in its current state.
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League of Legends |OT3| Lizards are red, golems are blue. Give a leash or no gank 4 u
- Thread starter SouthernDragon
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IsayFever
Member
Lone_Prodigy
Member
New gunblade is perfect for spammy champs like Kat and Akali.
Didn't they say that the jungle would be more profitable there for more attack oriented characters could do it? Sounds like this means only tanks can go in there, further cementing the current jungle types.
IsayFever
Member
Jungle isn't fully complete yet.
SouthernDragon
Member
League of Legends |OT3| It's a whole new game
Wolf Akela
Member
Just had to try. Gunblades stack again, though lifesteal got nerfed. :/
Active is still unique though, right?
Please don't turn this into a pissing match. Bringing up Dota 2 simply calls its fans into the thread to center the discussion around the wrong game, and it has had loads of changes throughout the years that dramatically impact the game.
If anything, the League changes are embarrassing. So much stuff is broken, or not working as intended. I'm not sure if it's better to change everything at once or piece by piece, but the new stuff for League is exciting only because it is new, not because any of it is well done. More stuff will probably break rather than be fixed when the day is done and the patch hits live. Is that so exciting?
Wolf Akela
Member
Yup, just like before.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
Many of the S3 changes to LoL are things Dota already has done (showing the amount of points into a skill on the HUD/putting more summoner spells on activated items instead).
I like both games, and both change pretty frequently. It's a little early to tell if these S3 changes will make LoL a better or worse game
Eh, I'm not sure if I agree. We won't know until things are actually played with at a large scale. Just saying everything is broken already seems to be jumping the gun on the matter and making a rather large assumption.
I do agree that there's the likely chance that something will break just because of the nature of this many changes but eh. I'm not quite as pessimistic about it.
Stonewall has pretty strange complaints. Mad about needing a leash/doesn't like that machete is so good even though it builds into wriggles just like cloth armor/thinks boots+3 was a diverse choice/etc. He doesn't seem very insightful as to why certain changes are made; it seems like he just got s3 videos out first and will ride that wave.
There's a lot of people reacting without testing. It's kind of the nature of things, really.
I'm still curious about the viability of a Utility Jungler with Machete + Flask + Biscuit + Ward. Good clear speed with Machete and good sustain. Could be interesting.
Wolf Akela
Member
Bug splat. Shouldn't be surprised. :/ I just hope my teammates won't go crazy when I disconnected after smiting my first blue.
One improvement for the shop I want: opening it automatically places the highlight on the search box.
One improvement for the shop I want: opening it automatically places the highlight on the search box.
My understanding was that this was the way it worked. Open shop and type immediately for the items you want. I thought they exampled that in the reveal thread?
Wolf Akela
Member
Didn't work like that for me when I went to buy for machete. I had to click the box first.
You did hit Enter, right? That should put you into the Search bar once the shop is opened. Here's the example for Crystalline Flask:
It's not a matter of implementing things that already exist in DOTA2. The whole design philosophy is that it's willing to accept changes and take the gameplay in a completely new direction. While most of these items are experimental and we won't know whether they will really work or not, it's showing that Riot is willing to take the gameplay to somewhere new. How games will play S2 from S3 will probably be different due to jungle changes and the new ways to itemize. The drastic changes that occur in LoL is vast while DOTA2 remains largely similar. It's not a matter of what the game has or doesn't have or whether stuff works or doesn't. The idea that the design philosophy for Riot is this type is more endearing than what Valve is doing with DOTA2.
Just look at the state of stuff on the PBE. It's a mess. How are Riot even supposed to design champions for a game like this? Things were based around AOE clearing so they designed a bunch of AOE clear champs. What happens to champions like Nautilus and Sejuani in a jungle like this? The jungle changes will shut out more options than they open. Nunu will probably be pick or ban in any serious game.
Needing a leash limits options when it comes to where you can start and simply ties lanes to the jungle more. Building boots in some ways is a more diverse choice for midgame, because you can build whatever you want/makes the most sense on your first back. What about having to start with Machete screams diversity to you when it locks your build path?
The Biscuit and the Ward are both super unimpressive and not worth speccing in for.
The best junglers post season three are going to be stuff like Udyr, Nunu, Warwick, Shen, and Trundle. What a thrilling new direction this is.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
Counterjab.
It's because DOTA's metagame isn't nearly as stagnant as League's. Riot is forced into action.
I feel like you're not reading my posts. Clearly you're not getting the message I'm trying to say. It's not a matter of whether these ideas will work well or won't even work at all. It's the fact that they're taking the steps to change the game. The sentiment is admirable. Whether they can actually execute it well is another thing entirely.
Touche.
You did not understand the meaning and the intent of my post at all if that's your retort.
Touche.
You did not understand the meaning and the intent of my post at all if that's your retort.
When is the last time you cleared jungle and your team didn't protect your start and give you a leash? Machete builds into many things. you can get boots on your first back or upgrade your machete. I don't think junglers are going to favor gp10 anymore, so I don't see complaining about the machete as reasonable. Of the options for jungler builds, I just don't see first back gp10 buys being favored anymore, and most builds will have the machete. These times, they are a changin'.
And, again, I don't think we can use such definite statements with little-to-no playtime with it and with this not being the final state of things. It is far too early to start throwing out absolute statements.
Machete has two upgrades (Madred's, Spirt Stone). Spirit Stone then has three more upgrades and Madred's gets you Wriggle's. Machete and Boots start both basically come down to the same question(s): What do I need after my first clear? More mobility? More sustain? More resistances? More damage? More utility?
I don't think it's a better-or-worse case scenario for diversity, honestly, from going Boots start to Machete start. If anything, I guess I'd give the nod to Machete due to the better upgrade paths than Boots -> Boots2.
Biscuit is roughly a 20% heal. For a jungle that is a lot harder and more taxing to your resources (e.g., Health), that's a rather big deal. The Ward is just nice as a means to watch for an invade. 1 Utility point (2, I suppose, since it has a pre-req) for a free anti-invade isn't a bad investment.
Lets put it another way. What do you lose? This is 14 Utility (+50 Starting Gold) vs 15 Utility. 9/7/14 vs 9/6/15 or some other variant.
Edit: Do note, this still allows for Tenacious to be picked up out of Defense, though that's a 0/15/15 scenario.
Aren't they still in the process of bringing over DotA stuff to DotA2? I think it's a bit early to say that they're not willing to make big changes. I'd at least wait for it to be out of beta, if not at least a full year out, to make statements like that really.
Great point.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
You're not posting anything worth responding to. Basically you're saying "Valve sucks and Riot rulez because Riot are changing their game a bunch in this patch!"
I started playing LoL a little over a year ago and literally nothing has changed for that year until now. Meta has remained exactly the same, item builds for each role remained exactly the same. You can't praise them for huge changes that may or may not improve the game until the effects of them are known.
First of all, if I'm not posting anything worth responding to, why are you responding? Secondly, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that what Riot is doing is very endearing. Never did I say Valve sucks. I admire Riot's design philosophy over Valve's. Don't distort my words. Lastly, regardless of how long the game has remained stagnant or not, the desire and the implementation for change that Riot has shown is step towards something good. Whether it'll BE good is something else entirely.
The Preseason Changes AMA has started. A lot of jungle focused questions so maybe soda cop will finally get the answer as to why they hate Sejuani.
They stated that characters with pets or whatever could get them to tank for them, so they made the pets weaker to minions.
lazorexplosion
Member
Wat? Boots 3 is diverse; literally every champion will buy boots so starting boots 3 can build into anything. Machete builds into an extremely narrow set of items so if you have to start machete you are already being pigeonholed into building one of those 3 items. Stonewall does not want almost every jungler ending up with wriggles because machete is too good to start without. That's perfectly sensible.
kiunchbb
www.dictionary.com
Biscuit is a pretty big deal for some of the close match up in top lane, and the 2 minute ward + slower jungle mean safer laning phase for someone with no escape like Darius. It actually give champion with poor escape a chance in the crazy jungle ruin everything meta.r
This is a pretty common argument against DOTA2/Valve and the reason it falls flat is this.
DOTA2 was never meant to be different from DotA. It's supposed to be a moderniztion that frees it from the limitations of the Battle.net client and interface. It makes as much sense to drastically change DOTA2 from DotA as it would Counter-Strike from the original Half Life mod.
Also, over Halloween, Valve just gave everyone cosmetic items worth $75 or more on the open market, while Riot is still plodding along with their overpriced skins and 6300 champions.
Think of it like a Doran item then. Also, it doesn't just build into a wriggle's. If junglers aren't going to build gp10, what is stopping them from building something else on first back? Movespeed power has been shifted away from boots. Cloth+5 is still a choice, it's just slower. Boots+3 will probably still work, you're just not getting as much bang for your buck as before. Tradeoffs are a good thing.
Besides Shaco, try Eve. You can try her AD or AP, and she used to have complete invisibility for a few seconds. Now she's always invisible if she hasn't been hit recently, until she gets close to enemies.
The meta refers to the roles characters have, and a big deal of that is limited by the early game and lane assignments. It doesn't matter if you have a push comp, poke comp or AoE comp when they are all based around how you bring them up to the mid/late game, and that part is pretty rigid.
Yep. Kinda dumb to think or expect they should evolve in similar ways. If anything, it is refreshing the more farther apart they become. Makes jumping back and forth between the 2 a lot easier when you get bored with one.
yo_soy_el_topo
Member
I love both games for these reasons though, I like what riot is trying to do to the game. And I like how more free Dota feels and I can always switch back in between games. Probably cause I have friends that play both as well.
Here's the problem I have with this. Everyone complained about Boots 3 being the best stat and diversity was needed. Now, there's an option: Start with mobility and gank after grabbing red buff or go Machete and clear. Every other item start (barring Cloth5, though what's the goal of this vs Machete?) isn't ideal just because of how cost effective Machete is for the jungle.
Edit: Doing that below math reminds me that Doran's start isn't a bad option for Lee Sin or Udyr possibly.
It confuses me that "LACK OF DIVERSITY!" was the issue before and now it's ... lack of diversity again? How was Boots -> anything else more diverse than Machete -> anything else? Is it because you don't want to eventually build Wriggle's or any of the Spirit items?
Honestly, the Ancient Golem Spirit item is absurdly good for an AP Tank Jungler. Starting Machete and knowing that you still get that out of it is, to me, a good prospect. Maybe I'm strange.
2x Doran's Level 6 Fiora means she gets +10 Health per Hit and 13 HP6 per hit (up to four stacks) with 1.2 APS with Rank 1 Burst of Speed going. That means minion auto -> QE -> 3 Autos -> Q out is 52 HP6 + 40 Health, maybe +60 if Lunge procs Doran's.
Oh. You misunderstand. I understand the bolded completely. It's not that I don't recognize that. It's just that I find it more admirable to do what Riot does rather than what Valve is doing.
Not every game has Bruiser/APC Mage/ADC/Lane&JungleSupport.
Having a jungler and a duo lane (or roamer) is always going to be most efficient, that's the rigid part.
lol
forgeforsaken
Member
Then lose the 2. I hate that it's called Dota 2 and it's a remake down to the bugs.
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