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League of Legends |OT3| Lizards are red, golems are blue. Give a leash or no gank 4 u
- Thread starter SouthernDragon
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I'll look into settings tonight and play around. I thought in-game sound was already available, just heavily muted but I'll double check. It could very well be what leaks in from speakers->mic.
EMPIREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Haha. Now I have to watch that when I get off work.
My pride of that game was baiting the Renekton engage and Q dragging him under turret, Flaying him further under tower and a minion to hit 3, and then Shielding off his Ignite while I killed him under tower.
gg
Edit: If I recall, I then died to Vi because "PUSH WAVE THEN BACK PUSH WAVE THEN BACK" despite being told Vi was probably coming. fuck you guys, do what I wan--oh god why is she punching me.
ACTUALLY, wasn't that the game where me, Rex, and bind stayed in mid for like 5 kills and a tower? "Guys gets out" -> "FUCK YOU I HOOK", rinse, repeat? We didn't leave until the second set of respawn timers :lol
My pride of that game was baiting the Renekton engage and Q dragging him under turret, Flaying him further under tower and a minion to hit 3, and then Shielding off his Ignite while I killed him under tower.
gg
Edit: If I recall, I then died to Vi because "PUSH WAVE THEN BACK PUSH WAVE THEN BACK" despite being told Vi was probably coming. fuck you guys, do what I wan--oh god why is she punching me.
ACTUALLY, wasn't that the game where me, Rex, and bind stayed in mid for like 5 kills and a tower? "Guys gets out" -> "FUCK YOU I HOOK", rinse, repeat? We didn't leave until the second set of respawn timers :lol
Soraka is so annoying to lane against it makes me angry.
You need dat Potassium brah.
Her kit is so boring though compared to someone like Lulu.
Jazzy Network
Member
Yeah, that's kind of why I said 150 (also to have a rounder number than 160, though that's dumb).
Personally I've found that when you start fighting for dragons and taking towers and whatnot that you start losing track of CS and forget about farming.
Nice clip. I've been leveling up a second acct so I keep deleting my streams. Would be fun to have multiple pov for gaf games.
Edit: 3rd party app for lol client. Not sure how that works. Crosspvp.com
Which is a bad habit and you should realize that farming is something you should try to do all game.
Edit: I don't mean to be all pissy and stuff, it just irks me that it feels like you're setting a low standard goal and then saying that that's enough. As a starting goal, sure, 150 cs @ 20 is a great point to start. Most people have trouble reaching that. But I sure hope that you don't just stop there. I hope that instead, once you start making 150 @ 20 consistently, that you up the goal from 150 to 180, and then continue onward to 200. You say the numbers are there not to be competitive, but simply by putting number benchmarks in the first place you make it competitive.
Aiming for a specific number can be kinda flawed though, if there's more action in your lane, ganks, roaming etc. Then you're obviously going to get less, and by having this "must get more cs because I'm aiming for a specific number" mentality, you might be getting cs when you should be backing off and being careful, and it'll end up putting you behind.
You're thinking about it in the wrong way. You can still be careful and CS well. Freezing the lane and warding mitigate a lot of the 'problems' of focusing on CSing that target number. How much action are you talking about? Is it enough that you're forced away from your lane 1 out of every 3 waves? When you don't have all the action around you, you should be able to focus on getting every CS in the wave. With the 180@ 20 benchmark you can miss the entirety of 9 waves and still reach the target goal. That's 4.5 minutes of the time you can use to roam/gank/etc.
Basically this.
I have a roundabout way of saying it, but having those benchmarks in my mind inadvertently increases your skill because then you learn how to work around ganking/roaming/etc. by finding the best times to to each of those things. Like, yes, do all the roaming, and take into account all the ganking, but keep finding a better way to CS around it and more efficiently as you play.
Nobody is advocating "cs above all else" and if that's what you get from having benchmarks, then the fault is on you, not the benchmark itself. Just advocating to not be satisfied because you reached your benchmark. Once you get there, move the goal posts a bit farther. Don't settle.
Edit: Also, I hate "I roamed a lot so my cs suffered" and "jungle presence so my cs is bad." They're excuses. I roam a lot when I play mid or I play aggressively in top and force jungle presence and I usually keep up to 160-200cs. Things happens in games to cost you cs, yes, but don't use them as an excuse.
If you lost cs because you roamed, learn to roam better; that is, time when you push waves so you have the most amount of time to roam. Don't roam just because you can, roam because you have a goal. If you net negative from roaming, you may want to look into just roaming less. Roaming isn't always the best option.
If you lose cs due to being ganked, learn to ward so you can back off and lose less cs (or, if the jungler stays there forever, be happy that they stayed there forever and lost map presence). If you're not trying to setup a countergank/bait the gank, just make it obvious that it's warded and typically you'll scare the jungler off earlier and you're free to cs again.
Edit: Also, I hate "I roamed a lot so my cs suffered" and "jungle presence so my cs is bad." They're excuses. I roam a lot when I play mid or I play aggressively in top and force jungle presence and I usually keep up to 160-200cs. Things happens in games to cost you cs, yes, but don't use them as an excuse.
If you lost cs because you roamed, learn to roam better; that is, time when you push waves so you have the most amount of time to roam. Don't roam just because you can, roam because you have a goal. If you net negative from roaming, you may want to look into just roaming less. Roaming isn't always the best option.
If you lose cs due to being ganked, learn to ward so you can back off and lose less cs (or, if the jungler stays there forever, be happy that they stayed there forever and lost map presence). If you're not trying to setup a countergank/bait the gank, just make it obvious that it's warded and typically you'll scare the jungler off earlier and you're free to cs again.
Jazzy Network
Member
I aim for 20 cs per 10 minutes. If I can get that, I'm doing well.
Schmattakopf
Member
I think benchmarks without any explanation are harmful. "You should have 200 by 20 minutes," is not enough information and really does promote "cs above all else".
I dunno, I feel like it's kind of implied that you should be playing properly (that is, punishing mistakes as they happen, trying to not die, etc.) and that the benchmarks are "while doing all that, also do this." But, okay, I can see that. The cs numbers are all about "while playing properly."
While we're on the subject of csing, unless you're forced out of lane, don't back on a siege minion wave
Sure, there's exceptions (it just left the base, you're pushed to their tower and want to reset the wave, you're mid lane and it takes 3 seconds to get back to lane, etc.) but, generally speaking, losing that one minion really sucks.Are we all robots?
Anyway, I didn't really provide any explanations because I thought it was implied/second nature. The way my mind works is I see the 200 @ 20 benchmark and my mind inquires about external events such as ganking/roaming. So I just see them as problems I need to solve to reach the benchmark, to put it short.
Edit: It also makes for good discussion after the fact when people ask about it.
Well, I am.
That just reminded me of Phantomlord's almost penta, where he chases the Nunu across the map. Which in turn reminded me I almost had a penta last night on Eve. I should've chased into the fountain laser to try to get that last kill. :<
Edit: http://www.twitch.tv/mercviper/b/362138646 Right around the 40 minute mark in the video :<
Edit: http://www.twitch.tv/mercviper/b/362138646 Right around the 40 minute mark in the video :<
This is actually pretty handy
Pancakes
hot, steaming, as melted butter slips into the cracks, drizzled with sticky sweet syrup OH GOD
Beep boop
IsayFever
Member
That just reminded me of Phantomlord's almost penta, where he chases the Nunu across the map. Which in turn reminded me I almost had a penta last night on Eve. I should've chased into the fountain laser to try to get that last kill. :<
Edit: http://www.twitch.tv/mercviper/b/362138646 Right around the 40 minute mark in the video :<
This is actually pretty handy
Just fix the sound and promote your stream a bit and it could get popular around hur. You stream all our 5s and junk so yayyy community
davidpdong
Member
I dunno, I feel like it's kind of implied that you should be playing properly (that is, punishing mistakes as they happen, trying to not die, etc.) and that the benchmarks are "while doing all that, also do this." But, okay, I can see that. The cs numbers are all about "while playing properly."
While we're on the subject of csing, unless you're forced out of lane, don't back on a siege minion wave
Dude, you have no idea how much i rage internally if I miss a cannon minion. It's the same feeling I get when a girl hits on me at a party but I'm too drunk to realize it until after they leave.
There was a time as Gangplank when I laned him top and still took smite...JUST FOR CANNON MINIONS!
Oh don't get me wrong, I don't think aiming for high cs is a bad thing, I just feel like you should include the disclaimer of don't let your goal of 200 cs get in the way of playing safe when you need to etc. When you're really trying to push how high you can get your cs it's sometimes really hard to let a wave of cs go even when you really should be going back or whatever.
I'd never use it for an excuse for bad cs, and I know when I'm farming well and when I'm not, but having more action in your lane is going to stop you getting cs in every game and it's important not to think you're always going to be able to be improving your cs in every game because of that stuff.
I'd never use it for an excuse for bad cs, and I know when I'm farming well and when I'm not, but having more action in your lane is going to stop you getting cs in every game and it's important not to think you're always going to be able to be improving your cs in every game because of that stuff.
Dat feel. Except I'm familiar with it while sober too lol.
All the better if Mumble chat could be heard and my occasional bouts of "The fuck are we doing?" And by occasional I mean every game.
I want to do streaming eventually. Maybe I'll rip off merc's attempts and do some myself. dat top lane action
as I ignore every other lane
Well, the goal isn't exactly to push your cs as high as possible. It's to not miss any cs. These are different things, at least to me. This is more about making sure that you don't miss any cs opportunity that presents itself while you're playing normally and reacting to the game and/or trying to make plays.
You should always improve your cs. That doesn't necessarily JUST mean having more cs, however. Getting cs in spots you didn't think you would. Knowing when you abandon a cs. Knowing when to let your lane push back to you rather than picking off cs. Knowing how to freeze (or unfreeze) a lane. There's lots to learn about csing.
Edit: And, if nothing else, I'd consider being consistent about your cs from game to game really helps as well. It's one of the reasons that I try to spam the same champ in a row so I get a feel fort it and adjust game-to-game.
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
Okay, we're getting a little off track here. I never intended to set the mentality as "CS CS CS all need to do is CS and nothing else'. I was just pointing out that setting a lower standard ruins the point of the benchmark if you're using it to improve your play. Looking at where this started...
Your reply is the intended reaction to me telling you about the CS goals, and I don't see anything about external factors being a problem here, just a general "I need to get better then!" response.
But then, goals are lowered.
I see that and wonder why you even have benchmarks in the first place. :/ Even the original statement of 100 @ 10 is near-perfect CS, with a ~93% claim to the CS (aka missing one wave) by 10 minutes and there weren't any complaints there about a lack of disclaimer.
I think the problem is, some of you think that 80 @ 10, 100 @ 12, and 200 @ 20 are impossible goals given the nature of the game, when in reality they aren't. They're completely realistic and can happen in many games, and the laning meta is all about how to make your goal while stopping the opponent from reaching theirs. Nobody's asking you to get 100% CS. That's completely ridiculous. But I think that saying that these lofty goals are impossible is wrong, and everyone can improve their gameplay to the point that they can reach them.
But when you're talking about benchmarks, that's exactly what you're doing. You're simplifying all that extra detail into a number that should signify how well you're doing in the game. It's fine to ask about what that benchmark means etc., I just find it a separate topic to be talked about and not necessarily have to accompany the numbers every time benchmarks are talked about.
Which I guess is just a difference in how we view things. I view csing as that action you do every game regardless of what happens. No matter the situation, you'll be looking to get cs in lane. So the goal of a benchmark here is the amount of cs you should be getting while "normally" playing the game. It sounds like you're viewing the benchmark as being the target when it's not.
Similarly, map awareness is something I consider "normal" procedure. I wouldn't say to just stare at the map but you should be at least glancing at it multiple times a minute. I get in the habit of at least looking at (and processing, since just "oh yeah there's a map back to the game" does nothing) it every cs.
These are both fundamental skills that you should work on in general. "I was roaming / Jungler was here" only goes so far for csing; "I was busy fighting / I was busy farming" only goes so far for map awareness. These things happen in games and you should work on being able to deal with them so the fundamental aspects of your play aren't lost. To me, a benchmark is just what I "should" be reaching, given that I'm dealing with these outside factors as they happen.
Edit: Put another way, it sounds like you're thinking we mean a benchmark as a quota. A minimum to be reached.
This too :x
merc on dat impossible is nothing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P-NMygTekQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P-NMygTekQ
IsayFever
Member
I guess part of it might be that I'm not as good as you and haven't played as much, so I generally have more to improve on and to me the benchmark is more of a target. If I get 100 cs by 12 minutes, which happens occasionally, it's because we've been completely dominating the lane and I've been focusing really hard that game on last hits. I know if I aimed for that every game I'd screw myself over badly because I'm not good enough to get that and have map awareness and be making sure I'm poking/trading when I need to be.
~4:00
I dunno. Just think of it as a grade and you take the test without knowing it every game. Using CS is a super simple way of marking that grade. For example, @ 10 minutes, 100+ is S, 80+ A, 70+ B, 60+ C, <60 F. When you don't score an A, it means you have a lot of room for improvement. I consistently score C and F on that scale, and I know I can do a lot to improve my score in that sense. It's not second nature for me and I really have to be on my A game to reach that A grade.
Lowering the benchmark to me is just giving yourself a curve to the grade, and doesn't tell you that you need to improve when you retool it such that it looks like 80+ is SS, 70+ S, 60+ A.
Realistically, even in a low-action lane, most people still miss the majority of their CS. The quickest way to improve these numbers is to up the percentage of last hitting to 100% when you have the chance to get CS.
The next step for self improvement would be to increase the amount of exposure to the CS in lane. That can be improved by warding to prevent ganks, freezing the lane outside your tower to discourage ganks, roaming or backing after clearing a wave as soon as it gets to lane, and pushing the enemy out of lane so you can focus more attention to CSing instead of avoiding harass.
The last suggestion also has the benefit of denying the enemy of CS, hopefully enough to make them irrelevant in teamfights.
I think we use CS as a benchmark because it's the easiest to talk about the game in terms of CS. Converting champion kills/assists into 12/6 CS respectively can help you decide what the better choice is. Do you chase the 5% hp Nidalee around the top jungle or do you go farm the 3 waves of creeps pushing up to your tower? It's a fairly extreme example but it helped me put into perspective how it's really not worth it to chase anyone when it's less effort to go back to the lane and freely CS their bounty's worth in gold.
Man so much debate about something I said just when I'm far away from a computer for most of the day.
I also think 95% is pretty much impossible unless you're godly at farming (which can be done, just not by me and I'm fine with that), because shit happens and you get killed or ganked or mess up or have to cover up for someone else's mess up or something and it's just how it goes. If you're already good enough at the game that can manage the unpredictable along with farming, then you really don't need my advice in the first place.
tl;dr if you want to be competitive why are you listening to a shitty 1205 elo player?
Yeah, that's why I said before there's things I need improving on. In fact I referred to it specifically.
I'm not advocating not giving two shits about farming, I'm just saying that you're setting yourself up for disappointment if you expect to farm almost 95% of the minions. The alternative I'm giving is something like 80% which really is a decent score to beat for the average player.
I also think 95% is pretty much impossible unless you're godly at farming (which can be done, just not by me and I'm fine with that), because shit happens and you get killed or ganked or mess up or have to cover up for someone else's mess up or something and it's just how it goes. If you're already good enough at the game that can manage the unpredictable along with farming, then you really don't need my advice in the first place.
tl;dr if you want to be competitive why are you listening to a shitty 1205 elo player?
That's actually how it works.
To be fair, his point was more about "Why did 100@10/180@20 become 80@10/150@20?" than the advice or anything. The lowering of the bar.
80/180 isn't a bad benchmark for most players; 60/160 -> 80/180 -> 95/200 is roughly that progression. And, again, it helps to not look at it as a quota or a goal, but a guideline or, as merc put it above, a grading scale. It's something to compare to, not so much something that MUST be fulfilled.
Thresh.
Come at me.
What about when I die at the start because there's a huge fight on bot lane involving both junglers and mids before the 4 minute mark but my team then gets 2 kills because they had to over-commit like crazy to get me and then the other team's graves comes back into lane with a doran's and is pushing me out of lane hard with his leona support, and by 10 minutes we both have under 60 cs but I have somehow managed to beat him by 1 or 2?
Not really a question and I think I agree with most of what's been said, that was mostly me just complaining about the last game I played because it sucked and I hate playing against graves and leona.
Not really a question and I think I agree with most of what's been said, that was mostly me just complaining about the last game I played because it sucked and I hate playing against graves and leona.
Considering the circumstances, you're doing really well.
1) The graves is obviously spending too much time failing to CS.
2)The ability to farm under tower greatly negates the advantage gained by the opponent to push you away from CSing freely. It's really the biggest reason you push to tower in the first place, so that the enemy can't CS as well.
If you're asking about how to regain control of your lane, that involves getting mid/jungle to gank your lane again if you're still getting pushed out with the help of your support. With the advantage they have and you being pushed to your tower, the conditions are pretty ideal for that to happen too.
Edit: It's even more ideal if your support can manage to clear any wards they've set up in tri/river with pinks to clear a path for the gank.
Yeah, our lee sin kept coming to try and help but there were counter ganks like every time which really sucked, mid and top ended up losing too and then the game just went horribly, just one of those frustrating games, but hopefully the next will go better and i'll be able to try for the 80 by 10!
Pancakes
hot, steaming, as melted butter slips into the cracks, drizzled with sticky sweet syrup OH GOD
That's too simple. Lets get some Laplace and Integral graphs based on CS, hard hitting data.
(I really should keep studying...)
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