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[dimb]

Draven is very mechanically demanding in team fights, you need to have really strong positioning and the ability to juggle two axes in a high pressure environment as well as not having any reliable escape mechanisms.

Other than Vayne, and perhaps Kog'Maw, I'm really not sure what ADCs are more mechanically demanding, especially strong ones. MF, Ashe, Caitlyn, Varus, Ezreal, Graves, Tristana are all much easier to play.

Twitch and Corki are probably on par, or less mechanically demanding.

I think you're really underestimating how easy other AD carries are compared.

I just don't see how Draven is demanding with positioning when his strength is his ability to just sort of to hunker down in place and destroy people with unmatched damage that has absurd scaling with lifesteal.

I am not really huge on citing stats but Draven is obviously one of the most popular picks right now with a super high win rate. If he was so mechanically demanding I don't think this would happen. This is true even at a bronze level, and the only other popular champion with such a skewed win rate in their favor is Janna.

You are underselling the difficulty of other carries. If you miss a skillshot on Graves you're screwed. Tristana is super hard to play properly with specialized abilities until you get to late game. Other carries are much more reliant on proper ability usage and kiting/positioning requirements.

 

[kayos90]

I just don't see how Draven is demanding with positioning when his strength is his ability to just sort of to hunker down in place and destroy people with unmatched damage that has absurd scaling with lifesteal.

I am not really huge on citing stats but Draven is obviously one of the most popular picks right now with a super high win rate. If he was so mechanically demanding I don't think this would happen. This is true even at a bronze level, and the only other popular champion with such a skewed win rate in their favor is Janna.

You are underselling the difficulty of other carries. If you miss a skillshot on Graves you're screwed. Tristana is super hard to play properly with specialized abilities until you get to late game. Other carries are much more reliant on proper ability usage and kiting/positioning requirements.

I think the best way to summarize Draven would be low skill floor and high skill ceiling. Not just talking about laning though.

 

[Kane Zakharov]

Everybody forgets about poor Urgot. =(

 

[BlazinAm]

Everybody forgets about poor Urgot. =(

I remember him, I remember for counter-picks.

 

[kayos90]

Everybody forgets about poor Urgot. =(

It's only cuz he's an ugly sack of shit.

 

[Kane Zakharov]

It's only cuz he's an ugly sack of shit.

He's so kawaii

 

[PhillipCostigan]

Graves' skillshots are as wide as the lane almost, I don't see how you can miss a skillshot as Graves.

You also cited Draven's ease of initiation and escape. He has no hard escape, it's reliant on the knockback from a skillshot. That's a far cry from going invisible as Twitch, Arcane Shifting as Ezreal, Quickdrawing as Graves, using Valkyrie as Corki etc. etc.

Also against some of the more slippery champions, you need to hit Stand Aside to initiate or you're fucked. Timing is more demanding because you have to catch your axes to refresh your cooldown of your W which is your main chasing potential when you initiate.

If your positioning is bad at Draven you really don't have a get out of jail free card.

Yeah, Draven is OP right now, but you're majorly selling him short in comparison to other champions. He's not an easy win either. The point of Draven being OP right now is that if you're good at him then yeah he;s an easy win (in lane), but that requires more practice and more micro than most AD carries.

 

[Edwardo]

Played a game and ended up going Vi support after a nobody wanted to jungle then 2 of us picked jung champs at the last second. Me and MF did really well bottom. We just kept assaulting their Vayne and Nunu couldnt do anything about it. It was only a normal, but still really fun.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Draven Sona's the cheesiest botlane there is.

dumbest fucking shit in the world.

 

[Mister Negative]

so I'm sorta getting the hang of jungling, but one thing I still don't get is when exactly to go back and buy.

I've been maining udyr, so my usual route is smiteless blue->wraiths->red->wolves.

I try to be level 4 before I gank so I can have my bear stance, but after I hit level 4 i'm usually only at like half health, so I feel like it's probably not safe to gank then. I can't help but feel I'm doing something very wrong.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

so I'm sorta getting the hang of jungling, but one thing I still don't get is when exactly to go back and buy.

I've been maining udyr, so my usual route is smiteless blue->wraiths->red->wolves.

I try to be level 4 before I gank so I can have my bear stance, but after I hit level 4 i'm usually only at like half health, so I feel like it's probably not safe to gank then. I can't help but feel I'm doing something very wrong.

Don't have to gank if the opportunity doesn't present itself. Go back and buy swords and wards.

 

[Newt]

Draven is very mechanically demanding in team fights, you need to have really strong positioning and the ability to juggle two axes in a high pressure environment as well as not having any reliable escape mechanisms.

This. Anyone who thinks Draven is easy hasn't played him from a long amount of time. Catching two axes while keeping perma bloodrush on in a teamfight is super demanding.

 

[scy]

This. Anyone who thinks Draven is easy hasn't played him from a long amount of time. Catching two axes while keeping perma bloodrush on in a teamfight is super demanding.

Nobody would deny that Draven's teamfighting axes/positioning is hard.

It's that his lane isn't the hardest thing in the world given his power level.

 

[Newt]

Nobody would deny that Draven's teamfighting axes/positioning is hard.

It's that his lane isn't the hardest thing in the world given his power level.

True, but he's balanced in a way in which he depends on getting 1-3 kills in lane to be strong in the mid and late game teamfights. Though staying alive and winning trades is easy in lane, securing kills isn't (at least against the people who know what they're doing).

 

[garath]

so I'm sorta getting the hang of jungling, but one thing I still don't get is when exactly to go back and buy.

I've been maining udyr, so my usual route is smiteless blue->wraiths->red->wolves.

I try to be level 4 before I gank so I can have my bear stance, but after I hit level 4 i'm usually only at like half health, so I feel like it's probably not safe to gank then. I can't help but feel I'm doing something very wrong.

I don't play udyr but in general, don't go smiteless blue to wolves. It doesn't get you anything. Go straight to red and you will be level 3 and can gank. If you are going phoenix then 2 points in phoenix and 1 in bear. You don't need turtle to gank the first time. Or just 1 point in phoenix, turtle and bear. Not going straight to red means the other jungler will be ganking before you or in position to counter jungle you hard.

With pots you should be able to smiteless blue then go straight to red, hit 3 and gank a lane. You'll be over 3/4 health by the time you hit a lane.

If nothing is gankable then do wraiths golems and back for your first buy. You should be just a hair from 4 and ready to clear wolves and gank when you get back.

 

[PROGRAM_IX]

Firm believer of Jayce/Rengar bottom here.

Jayce botlane is legit. I should not at all have won some of the games I've played with him and various supports/bruisers. There's no stopping the Manamune/Muramana damage, and once that's rolling you can get kills even when horribly behind (me, regularly). Then it's armour penetration and more damage and ouch. He's probably the one 'OP' champion I can play and still consider him OP. Any others I tend to lose/not do that well.

 

[Princess Carl]

Maokai/Viktor bot is lane is the one true bot lane.

 

[dimb]

Graves' skillshots are as wide as the lane almost, I don't see how you can miss a skillshot as Graves.

The thing with Graves is that for his Q to do decent damage you have to be in close. The cone on his skillshot is not immense up close, and at higher levels of play I don't think it is uncommon at all for people to try and avoid his incoming damage. You'll hit some you'll miss some, at the end of the day it isn't guaranteed damage, which is what Draven has by the boatload.

You also cited Draven's ease of initiation and escape. He has no hard escape, it's reliant on the knockback from a skillshot. That's a far cry from going invisible as Twitch, Arcane Shifting as Ezreal, Quickdrawing as Graves, using Valkyrie as Corki etc. etc.

plz. r u draven?

Draven is a high mobility champion who has a movespeed boost he can regularly push out to escape, and is one of the only AD carries to have an interrupt, which can push out to a whopping 1050 range. The bigger thing about Draven is that he doesn't need to escape. His damage output and survivability are so high that you just use your excellent dueling capabilities to square off against people who come in on you. This is what makes him so good.

Draven's defensive tools are instantaneous and easily available. Twitch invisibility is super strong when used properly, but it is something that needs to be used in anticipation. It's not reactionary. Draven's reaction to getting jumped on is to kill people. Twitch can try to not die for three seconds until invis kicks in. Quickdraw on Graves isn't actually super strong. It is low range, long cd, and needs to be used as an offensive tool for Graves to really be effective.

Also against some of the more slippery champions, you need to hit Stand Aside to initiate or you're fucked. Timing is more demanding because you have to catch your axes to refresh your cooldown of your W which is your main chasing potential when you initiate.

Not only is Stand Aside super easy to hit, but it is also a really save tool when it comes to engages. If you miss it big deal, just back off and wait for it to be up again.

Yeah, Draven is OP right now, but you're majorly selling him short in comparison to other champions. He's not an easy win either. The point of Draven being OP right now is that if you're good at him then yeah he;s an easy win (in lane), but that requires more practice and more micro than most AD carries.

I don't see him as being hard to play, or very micro intensive. Like I literally don't understand what you are saying. Is everyone just a Draven pro? He is one of the most popular picks/bans. He must be so hard to learn.

I don't play udyr but in general, don't go smiteless blue to wolves. It doesn't get you anything. Go straight to red and you will be level 3 and can gank. If you are going phoenix then 2 points in phoenix and 1 in bear. You don't need turtle to gank the first time. Or just 1 point in phoenix, turtle and bear. Not going straight to red means the other jungler will be ganking before you or in position to counter jungle you hard.

ability points don't work like that. you can't put two points into phoenix at level two. phoenix, turtle at level two, bear at level three.

 

[Mister Negative]

I don't play udyr but in general, don't go smiteless blue to wolves. It doesn't get you anything. Go straight to red and you will be level 3 and can gank. If you are going phoenix then 2 points in phoenix and 1 in bear. You don't need turtle to gank the first time. Or just 1 point in phoenix, turtle and bear. Not going straight to red means the other jungler will be ganking before you or in position to counter jungle you hard.

With pots you should be able to smiteless blue then go straight to red, hit 3 and gank a lane. You'll be over 3/4 health by the time you hit a lane.

If nothing is gankable then do wraiths golems and back for your first buy. You should be just a hair from 4 and ready to clear wolves and gank when you get back.

But don't I need turtle to clear my camps? It helps keep a lot of damage off. I'll try this method though, thanks.

 

[Newt]

I don't see him as being hard to play, or very micro intensive. Like I literally don't understand what you are saying. Is everyone just a Draven pro? He is one of the most popular picks/bans. He must be so hard to learn.

You sound like you have never played him before. The movement speed boost lasts for 1.5 seconds. The slow at level 1 is 20 percent. Neither of these moves help you reliably escape at all. Any jungler with a gap closer doesn't care about Draven's escapes. You're talking about it as if he's equal to Ezreal or Caitlyn in the ability to get away.

 

[Ken]

it's like you guys think draven saying he does it all is for funsies

 

[LCGeek]

Nobody would deny that Draven's teamfighting axes/positioning is hard.

It's that his lane isn't the hardest thing in the world given his power level.

This.

If his laning wasn't so easy I'd give him more respect. Team fights are nothing if you have people who aren't letting you get peeled.

Conisdering how strong he is I don't really see why people complain he doesn't have a hard escape, the reason should be obvious why. If you time things right you won't be needing to escape.

 

[Einbroch]

I love playing Nami against bad Dravens.

 

[garath]

ability points don't work like that. you can't put two points into phoenix at level two. phoenix, turtle at level two, bear at level three.

Hopefully as long as I've been posting you don't actually believe I think you can put 2 points in the same skill at level 2. If you re-read what I wrote I was saying an option is to have 2 points in phoenix and 1 in bear by level 3. Another option was 1 point in phoenix, 1 I'm bear and one in turtle

 

[Mister Wilhelm]

If Draven doesn't get ahead in lane he's gonna have a bad time until late game.

I've always thought he was a little too powerful in the right hands overall but I'm not sure what you can do to nerf him without wrecking him. Longer cooldown on Stand Aside? Slightly lower the damage on Spinning Axe?

 

[PhillipCostigan]

The thing with Graves is that for his Q to do decent damage you have to be in close. The cone on his skillshot is not immense up close, and at higher levels of play I don't think it is uncommon at all for people to try and avoid his incoming damage. You'll hit some you'll miss some, at the end of the day it isn't guaranteed damage, which is what Draven has by the boatload.

plz. r u draven?

Draven is a high mobility champion who has a movespeed boost he can regularly push out to escape, and is one of the only AD carries to have an interrupt, which can push out to a whopping 1050 range. The bigger thing about Draven is that he doesn't need to escape. His damage output and survivability are so high that you just use your excellent dueling capabilities to square off against people who come in on you. This is what makes him so good.

Draven's defensive tools are instantaneous and easily available. Twitch invisibility is super strong when used properly, but it is something that needs to be used in anticipation. It's not reactionary. Draven's reaction to getting jumped on is to kill people. Twitch can try to not die for three seconds until invis kicks in. Quickdraw on Graves isn't actually super strong. It is low range, long cd, and needs to be used as an offensive tool for Graves to really be effective.

Not only is Stand Aside super easy to hit, but it is also a really save tool when it comes to engages. If you miss it big deal, just back off and wait for it to be up again.

I don't see him as being hard to play, or very micro intensive. Like I literally don't understand what you are saying. Is everyone just a Draven pro? He is one of the most popular picks/bans. He must be so hard to learn.

ability points don't work like that. you can't put two points into phoenix at level two. phoenix, turtle at level two, bear at level three.

Do you play Draven at all? You're telling me all this like you've played a lot of Draven.

 

[LCGeek]

If Draven doesn't get ahead in lane he's gonna have a bad time until late game.

I've always thought he was a little too powerful in the right hands overall but I'm not sure what you can do to nerf him without wrecking him. Longer cooldown on Stand Aside? Slightly lower the damage on Spinning Axe?

Make the damage bonus on his q scale instead of being so much at the beginning and adding a slightly higher mana cost to it.

 

[Newt]

Made it to gold

 

[zkylon]

can't believe I stayed up all night replying to that thread

I'm weak weak weak

hi

yum, ctrl+s

So I wasn't going to mention it because the thread got locked but it is seriously bugging me. I went back to read the remnants of the lol v dota thread and seriously wtf. What appeared to be an entire community condoning shaming their already beaten opponents? And defending that shit? I've played sports all through high school and college and you just don't do that shit in a competitive environment. There is literally zero benefit to anyone involved besides ego bloating. That was seriously the most classless thread I've ever read. Sorry for the soapbox, but I couldn't believe what I was reading.

I said it like a billion times in that thread, it's not bad to enjoy stomping the other team, you one shot their tanks, goof around, get a few laughs, that's not evil. the problem is forcing 20 minutes of that on people. when I'm stomping a team I just get it over with, because what's the point of trolling the enemy team, they could be your teammates next game.

and what's ridiculous is people thinking that that's a right they should have over people being able to surrender for some reason.

the best part of the thread was when legato said that lolgaf was all tits and kayos quitting

well....

I will try to step it up.

Zac, Ori, Janna, Hecarim, Ryze, Draven, and Ezreal are for people who are bad at the game and need easy to play overpowered champions to win.

I don't entirely disagree with this

That thread started out alright but eventually derailed into another Dota vs LoL skirmish.

Valve and Riot need to just make a crossover game so we can end this once and for all.

just have phreak and garry fuck once and for all and let's all hold hands in harmony

Made it to gold

lol soraka's caviars

congrats

 

[dimb]

Hopefully as long as I've been posting you don't actually believe I think you can put 2 points in the same skill at level 2. If you re-read what I wrote I was saying an option is to have 2 points in phoenix and 1 in bear by level 3. Another option was 1 point in phoenix, 1 I'm bear and one in turtle

i dunno. level two bear is just weird unless you started red and did a level two gank or something.

Made it to gold

congrats.

 

[kayos90]

Another person in soraka's cavalier's? Seriously? Rofl.

 

[Edwardo]

Made it to gold

Congrats. Hopefully i'll get there soon enough.

 

[Sr Kitsune]

Congratulations!

Another person in soraka's cavalier's? Seriously? Rofl.

Blame his friends.

What if I want to see how I measure up against my friends?
The league system will always try to place you in a league with summoners on your friends list first, provided they’re in the same skill tier you are. If you want to check your ranking against a friend in another league, you can compare your tier, division and League Points to get a general idea of who’s closer to the top.

(Source)

 

[zkylon]

for some reason in las most my friends got into different groups than I did

nautilus outriders... forever alone

 

[Einbroch]

soraka's urfriders 4 lyf

 

[Edwardo]

Ya me and some friends all got placed around the same time. 3 of them were put in talons urfriders and I was put in kennens warlords.

 

[Newt]

Another person in soraka's cavalier's? Seriously? Rofl.

Is there a lot of people in GAF in this division?

 

[Kane Zakharov]

Is there a lot of people in GAF in this division?

Yup.

 

[Pancakes]

Made it to gold

Grats!

 

[Mister Negative]

Crazy game. Ryze and Yi disconnected at like midgame, so it was 4v4 for a really long time, which is probably why it took so long. They started pushing into our base, and then yi came back, so I thought we were screwed. But we managed to fight back and win it.

Unbelievably annoying trying to chase down a team that had Veigar, Sona, and Kassadin though. Dem silences, dat stun.

 

[Newt]

Crazy game. Ryze and Yi disconnected at like midgame, so it was 4v4 for a really long time, which is probably why it took so long. They started pushing into our base, and then yi came back, so I thought we were screwed. But we managed to fight back and win it.

Unbelievably annoying trying to chase down a team that had Veigar, Sona, and Kassadin though. Dem silences, dat stun.

Dat Thresh.

 

[zkylon]

ok swain's hilarious

bought

so far I'm doing catalyst, tear, roa, haunting guise, rylais

 

[Subtle]

13 LP gained for win then 23 LP lost for loss. I'm confident I'll get to Silver 4 soon, but damn this system is disheartening.

 

[Sr Kitsune]

I feel the Ahri tits comment was directed at DeadlyPaws.

Even if that is the case, I regret nothing.
(Although I don't remember talking about Ahri's tits)
_

I just played with Nautilus, since he is on sale, and I don't know.

I started blue>wraiths>red, went to gank mid, walking to enemy diana from behind, AA, then E, and when she tried to run away I used my Q, she flashed away. (Now that I think about it, I didn't used my W in that gank).

Right now, when I'm jungling, I'm like "I don't know what I'm doing, I'm just going to walk here.. yeah, emm, try to gank you, ehh, I failed, I will take some minions, and try again later, I gues..."

I really feel like I'm just walking around not really knowing what to do.

I guess it comes with experience, so I'll need to play jungle more.

(My build/stats)

Jungle is going to be my Achilles' heel for some time...

 

[Newt]

13 LP gained for win then 23 LP lost for loss. I'm confident I'll get to Silver 4 soon, but damn this system is disheartening.

I had the same problem too when I started playing. What you have to do is when multiple games in a row to get your MMR up. Eventually it becomes +30LP per win and -10-20LP per loss. Getting those win streaks is the hard part though, especially in silver.

 

[Boken]

boken got a bit mad tho.

yo dont mistake surprise at stupidity for anger

 

[PhillipCostigan]

Even if that is the case, I regret nothing.
(Although I don't remember talking about Ahri's tits)
_

I just played with Nautilus, since he is on sale, and I don't know.

I started blue>wraiths>red, went to gank mid, walking to enemy diana from behind, AA, then E, and when she tried to run away I used my Q, she flashed away. (Now that I think about it, I didn't used my W in that gank).

Right now, when I'm jungling, I'm like "I don't know what I'm doing, I'm just going to walk here.. yeah, emm, try to gank you, ehh, I failed, I will take some minions, and try again later, I gues..."

I really feel like I'm just walking around not really knowing what to do.

I guess it comes with experience, so I'll need to play jungle more.

(My build/stats)

Jungle is going to be my Achilles' heel for some time...

Some tips:

You generally want to rush either Locket of the Iron Solari or runic Bulwark (my preference) after your boots and Ancient Golem.

The Diana gank you mentioned was a successful gank since you forced her flash. for the next 5 minutes her flash would have been down so she's a relatively easy gank at that stage.

Your optimal jungling path from the start of the game is to get a smiteless blue (ask your team for a smiteless pull) and immediately go to red buff and take that. Skip the wraiths and wolves. You should then look for a gank wherever available. If there's nothing on, you have two options: you can either farm your own jungle, or try and guess where the enemy jungler is going by looking at your lanes.

Is one of your lanes winning hard? Is one of your lanes really pushed? The jungler will probably look to gank that lane and you can position for a counter gank.

Some other useful things to know:

- Buffs spawn every 5 minutes, so the next blue buff will likely spawn at around 7 minutes, so you can donate it over to your mid lane (or take it yourself if they're mana-less), or you can try and contest the enemy blue, especially after a successful bottom gank.

- Just because your bot or top lane are pushed up doesn't mean you can gank. as your supports where wards are, a lot of people don't ward lane bushes so you can come from your tower up the brushes to gank.

- Nautilus has a lot of cc and he's one of the best cc tanks there is right now. Your passive will root people on autos, making your Q very easy to land. if you can get that on to the enemy carry, especially if you have your W on, you'll do a lot of damage and lock them down for an easy kill.

- If you see the enemy jungler gank top, do your best to try and force a dragon. They'll be 2 men down and won't have a smite.

A lot of jungling just comes down to practice and experience. You'll get there in the end.

 

[Boken]

Even if that is the case, I regret nothing.
(Although I don't remember talking about Ahri's tits)
_

I just played with Nautilus, since he is on sale, and I don't know.

I started blue>wraiths>red, went to gank mid, walking to enemy diana from behind, AA, then E, and when she tried to run away I used my Q, she flashed away. (Now that I think about it, I didn't used my W in that gank).

Right now, when I'm jungling, I'm like "I don't know what I'm doing, I'm just going to walk here.. yeah, emm, try to gank you, ehh, I failed, I will take some minions, and try again later, I gues..."

I really feel like I'm just walking around not really knowing what to do.

I guess it comes with experience, so I'll need to play jungle more.

(My build/stats)

Jungle is going to be my Achilles' heel for some time...

basically yeah, jungle has the highest knowledge/experience requirement of all lanes

This is my story on what it takes to be a good Jungler. It is also why Jungling is too hard and I'll never be good at it cos all I do is try to gank over extended lanes that are warded where I am


Jungling in league is basically playing a 4 position (that is, in general terms, you will be the 4th richest person on the team) that requires you to have global map presence while your opponent can do the same to you

You have to gank 3x more than doto mids
However, jungle farm is always available so you are sacrificing farm for gank opportunity. You are also sacrificing the opportunity to gank other lanes. Its basically a huge balancing act of the most important resource - your time. so you better not Fuck up
-Because of this it's important to know where all the wards are which requires good team mates or being able to guess the position by player behaviour as you come for ganks
-Also, the good opposing Junglers can either guess or see you coming for gank and either counter gank and fuck you up or going into your jungle and stealing your shit
-Its important to understand which lane is more gank able than others which requires you to not able to be able to read the lane, but to understand lane match ups ie. At level 6 riven is likely to go all in on singed or that garen counters akali so is likely to be aggressive at level 3. You abuse that and gank their asses.
-It is also important to know ganging which lane is key to your victory. You basically have control over the effectiveness of your team going into the mid game. Do you want to cripple the core player of their AoE comp (Orianna), or do you want to make your poker much stronger (jayce). Do you want your tf to dominate the map in midgame and gank for him. Or Do you recognise that no matter how much you gank a lane they will always be useful to their comp (malphite). Or do you know that if zed gets ahead of his opponent it will snowball out of control.
-You also have to play invisible mind games against the enemy Junglers that requires you to have knowledge of his path, what lanes he is valuing, his last position and which lanes are potential gank targets, which is why consistent counter gankers like diamondprox are pretty amazing. Counter ganking is incredibly powerful because gankers tend to overcommit and use some skills to initiate. And as such you need to be wary of this too. You also have the choice to punish bad gangs by your opponent by stealing his camps, especially if he is a poor farming champion.

Beyond all that, there's the generic requirements such as what kind of Jungler are you playing - farmer, counter Jungler(specialises in making life hell for enemy jungler), counter ganker, power ganker (my category for those with powerful ganks), early game ganker (those that depend on getting early game gangs off) and map presence gankers (high mobility)
Also, you need to know the different gank paths and which ones are the best for the target position and the way your champion ganks
There's the mechanical requirements of your Junglers like aiming their skillshots and positioning. And playing dangerous smite games with the enemy Jungler

Tl;Dr Jungling is hard. Respect your junglers

 

[Ken]

learn how to last hit wolves

 

[zkylon]

Even if that is the case, I regret nothing.
(Although I don't remember talking about Ahri's tits)

I get the feeling the tits part was directed at me

which is weird, since I tend to cross the line often but iirc I don't think I talk too much about champions tits

also boko your post talking about gangs is funny