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League of Legends |OT4| No Country for Old Karma

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drawkcaB

Member
"j4 is tanky
he got a warmogs"
wut.

Don't think I've ever seen a build like that on a Jarvan. His first 2-3 items should've more tank than damage, and even that, he should only need 1-2 dmg items. That is a horrible j4 build.

Going by the game's KDA scores, I doubt they lost because what Riven or Jarvan did or didn't build. We also don't know how the game progressed. If Jarvan got most of his 7 kills early and it was the majority of his team's early kills, then there's nothing wrong with taking a chance and going damage heavy to carry.

(SotEL does suck on him though and leaving basic boots is...whatever.)

On another topic, what do the Vi junglers here level first? I see lots of guides level E, but the damage increase is small and while the CDR/point is nice, Vi in the jungle with a bit of CDR through items doesn't have many issues getting two E charges ready between ganks. I personally didn't like it. Some guides say level W first, but it's more sustained damage. I can see it being very good if you want to duel the other jungler and seems really strong for counter jungling, but not so hot for ganking. Few guides recommend Q first, but that's apparently what Korean junglers do and it makes her initial burst during ganks crazy and thanks to it generously lowering the CDR/point, Q becomes very good at clearing jungle camps. The downside that I've read, and experienced myself, is that if you level Q then using Q to gap close prior to ulting means you're wasting significant damage.
 

Horse Detective

Why the long case?
She doesn't build a lot of raw AP anyway so she gets to build a lot of penetration which basically deals with the MR. I mean, Health/MR is an issue for her but no more than other mids. Since she's more sustained damage with constant Ws, she doesn't really care about not being able to 100-0 someone. That and, ideally, she's kill stealingcleaning up the back half of fights to get her resets and not really frontloading her damage.

That's the thing though.

I have improved on team fighting with her as much as possible, but unless I actually get to target someone I can kill to work on my resets, I am usually on clean up duty. It's not very redeeming, and the chat box proves that.
 

scy

Member
The downside that I've read, and experienced myself, is that if you level Q then using Q to gap close prior to ulting means you're wasting significant damage.

Worth noting that a lot of Korean Vi's use her ult to chase/assassinate rather than Q->Ult initiate.

That's the thing though.

I have improved on team fighting with her as much as possible, but unless I actually get to target someone I can kill to work on my resets, I am usually on clean up duty. It's not very redeeming, and the chat box proves that.

Not sure what to say then? Maybe she's just not for you :x Honestly, I don't really find much difficulty in doing the majority of damage in team fights with Kat even with minimal (e.g., even tanky Sunfire Cape ones) damage built. She looks to deal a lot of damage over a long stretch of time.

Edit: Though a behind Kat trying to go against tanky teams is fairly depressing :/
 

drawkcaB

Member
Worth noting that a lot of Korean Vi's use her ult to chase/assassinate rather than Q->Ult initiate.

I prefer that as well. Q->Flash and then ult. Or you know, no flash and just have the opponent let me hit them. I just keep reading that leveling Q is bad because you could potentially lose a ton of your damage but I don't find it particularly hard to hit and the pay-off is worth it.
 

garath

Member
I prefer that as well. Q->Flash and then ult. Or you know, no flash and just have the opponent let me hit them. I just keep reading that leveling Q is bad because you could potentially lose a ton of your damage but I don't find it particularly hard to hit and the pay-off is worth it.

All the successful high elo Vi players have been leveling Q first lately. Makes me sad because I never did it lol. (speaking from jungle perspective here, laning might be different)
 

Type2

Member
All the successful high elo Vi players have been leveling Q first lately. Makes me sad because I never did it lol. (speaking from jungle perspective here, laning might be different)
Yeah, I haven't played Vi much lately but I think i remember people leveling E first before. The damage off Q is much stronger though and the cd reduction per level is great.

In the jungle? How are you guys building her?
spirit stone+boots first back w/ a ward and or pots>mobo boots or work towards ancient golem depending on how aggressive you are>Locket or priority tank item to shut down whoever is fed.
I'm not sure if carry Vi works particularly well out of the jungle anymore but if you went that route:
Ancient lizard>brutalizer>phage>tanky stuff probably?
 

drawkcaB

Member
All the successful high elo Vi players have been leveling Q first lately. Makes me sad because I never did it lol. (speaking from jungle perspective here, laning might be different)

If you can land you Qs, it works.

I was playing one match where bot ADC died and support was low hp so I went to cover the bottom turret since I was in the area anyways having just finished getting 2nd red buff and gotten level 6 with 3 points in Q. I'm under the turret and the opposing Thresh fires off a hook and misses, Graves blows his buckshot to clear minions without hitting me so I felt confident and landed a max'ed Q on Graves with a single AA. Chunked him for about 1/3 of his health but didn't go much further than that. I was really surprised. He regens/pots/lifesteals back to about 80% health Q comes back on cooldown and I think, you know what, fuck it. Max Q'ed right into his face AA-E-AA-E-AA. He flashes with a sliver of life left, and then I suplex his ass. Took about <3 seconds to 80-0 the ADC. And that's why I've been wondering about whether or not maxing Q is legit. Because I so very want it to be legit.

Type2 said:
spirit stone+boots first back w/ a ward and or pots>mobo boots or work towards ancient golem depending on how aggressive you are>Locket or priority tank item to shut down whoever is fed.
I'm not sure if carry Vi works particularly well out of the jungle anymore but if you went that route:
Ancient lizard>brutalizer>phage>tanky stuff probably?

Vi can do Doran's blade start very comfortably with a solid leash on first buff. Been trying things lately and I'm big on 2x doran's for early items. Pick up either boots of swiftness or mobility boots after while buying the usual assortment of pots and wards. By then I get a feel for how the game is going to progress and I can either go offensive (e.g. Brutalizer) or defensive (Golem, Sunfire Cape, Randuin's) or utility (Frozen Mallet, Locket).
 

Blizzard

Banned
I guess the advice I have always seen for Kat is that the little mask item (I always forget the name) is basically a requirement. I don't know if the best thing next is to rush the rest of Liandry's, or do something else.

Oddly enough though, I think the few Kats I remember doing well didn't do that, and instead went like, deathfire grasp, deathcap.


Something from my own game recently that made me happy:
I'm bad and have gotten so much worse (only 12 wins more than losses still) that my MMR is now gain 5, lose 7, instead of what it was a day or two ago, which was gain 7, lose 3-4.

But, in one game I was Draven and we like, got first blood because the enemy Maokai came running in and tried to snare me. I, being a smart player, waited until he tried to snare and then flashed under my tower! The Maokai naturally took tower damage. I don't know if we won after that but I hope so.
 

le bip

Neo Member
I guess the advice I have always seen for Kat is that the little mask item (I always forget the name) is basically a requirement. I don't know if the best thing next is to rush the rest of Liandry's, or do something else.

Oddly enough though, I think the few Kats I remember doing well didn't do that, and instead went like, deathfire grasp, deathcap.


Something from my own game recently that made me happy:
I'm bad and have gotten so much worse (only 12 wins more than losses still) that my MMR is now gain 5, lose 7, instead of what it was a day or two ago, which was gain 7, lose 3-4.

But, in one game I was Draven and we like, got first blood because the enemy Maokai came running in and tried to snare me. I, being a smart player, waited until he tried to snare and then flashed under my tower! The Maokai naturally took tower damage. I don't know if we won after that but I hope so.

Actually Haunting Guise (the mask item) isn't good on Kat, unless you're building her bruiser, with sunfire and such. Void Staff, Abyssal or Zhonya's are way more needed on full ap Kat.
 

scy

Member
Haunting Guise is a fairly typical first item for most of Kat's match ups. I mean, every item you listed are still things you ideally want for Kat and none of them are directly competing with Haunting Guise.
 

le bip

Neo Member
Haunting Guise is a fairly typical first item for most of Kat's match ups. I mean, every item you listed are still things you ideally want for Kat and none of them are directly competing with Haunting Guise.

The point is that I can't see HG, nor Liandry's, having a place in Kat's full build. It doesnt give you enough damage nor enough survivability, it feels like a wasted slot.
 

JesseZao

Member
All the successful high elo Vi players have been leveling Q first lately. Makes me sad because I never did it lol. (speaking from jungle perspective here, laning might be different)

I was only playing Vi for a while and I always max Q first. I usually ran tele/smite, too. That presence! I don't usually take flash since I'm maxing Q. I like to gank top then tele bot with ult. I usually build lizard+bruta+hptank.


I'd probably start running ignite or exhaust instead of tele if that account gets to gold.
 
Hey guys, new question for today: when playing ADC (say, Fortune or Vayne or Graves), what criteria do you consider when deciding between IE/Bloodthirster/BoTRK as your first major item? Is one better than the others given "optimal" circumstances vs a hard lane? Is it common, for example, to buy part of one (say lifesteal fast) and then get the IE up and running?

Similarly for say AP mid is there a general build rule for if you're getting your ass kicked that differs heavily from if you're stylin on em?
 
Hey guys, new question for today: when playing ADC (say, Fortune or Vayne or Graves), what criteria do you consider when deciding between IE/Bloodthirster/BoTRK as your first major item? Is one better than the others given "optimal" circumstances vs a hard lane? Is it common, for example, to buy part of one (say lifesteal fast) and then get the IE up and running?

i'd like to know as well. i rush BF if possible and then BT, if not i go Pickaxe and IE.

on ashe i go Shiv after BF or Axe. works well in shit elo.
 

DeadNames

Banned
Nothing is worse than having to leave a ranked. Nothing.

Also. Does anyone else find Lee sin incredibly op for what he brings to the table?
 

scy

Member
The point is that I can't see HG, nor Liandry's, having a place in Kat's full build. It doesnt give you enough damage nor enough survivability, it feels like a wasted slot.

Full build isn't necessarily relevant, however, since the times that happens are few and far between. Come final build, yes, I'd probably rather have a Deathcap than a Guise but at 10 minutes, I'll gladly take a Haunting Guise over piecing together Abyssal (barring a few matchups).

And Liandry's isn't that bad for Kat even in a non-Sunfire/Rylai's build. It's still a solid amount of AP/HP/MPen that works well with her kit.

Hey guys, new question for today: when playing ADC (say, Fortune or Vayne or Graves), what criteria do you consider when deciding between IE/Bloodthirster/BoTRK as your first major item? Is one better than the others given "optimal" circumstances vs a hard lane? Is it common, for example, to buy part of one (say lifesteal fast) and then get the IE up and running?

Similarly for say AP mid is there a general build rule for if you're getting your ass kicked that differs heavily from if you're stylin on em?

It depends on the champion. MF and Graves, for instance, want a lot of raw AD due to how their kits work so BT is generally their first item. Vayne would rather get Ruined King for the ASPD/On-hit and the active. Early Lifesteal is generally a good thing for basically every ADC, however.
 

brian!

Member
botrk for peel and gud midgame
bt for ad scaling and duling
ie for melting down ppl like tunks, gud if you can auto a lot during fights without being interrupted
 

Blizzard

Banned
Speaking of items, does anyone buy the guaranteed crit item (sword of the divine maybe?)? It's a core suggested item on Draven by default, and I saw a Draven get it, but I feel like I hardly ever see it otherwise.

Was it listed as core because of Draven's old Q/passive behavior?
 

drawkcaB

Member
Hey guys, new question for today: when playing ADC (say, Fortune or Vayne or Graves), what criteria do you consider when deciding between IE/Bloodthirster/BoTRK as your first major item? Is one better than the others given "optimal" circumstances vs a hard lane? Is it common, for example, to buy part of one (say lifesteal fast) and then get the IE up and running?

Similarly for say AP mid is there a general build rule for if you're getting your ass kicked that differs heavily from if you're stylin on em?

Personally,

Bloodthirster - I have abilities that scale well with AD and I benefit from the additional survivability that lifesteal offers because I'm likely going to be in the mix.
Infinity Edge - I scale predominantly with auto-attacks. My range and kit give me enough safety that I don't need a tremendous amount of early lifesteal.
BotRK - I have a good source of on-hit damage in my kit or I need additional damage to compliment my early ability-based burst.

Lots of champs can fit into a few of these criteria (Tristana can go BotRK or IE) so it's often down to preference and what runes/masteries I'm running (for Trist I'd use my lifesteal quints and get the lifesteal utility mastery, gives me ~10% LS so I can rush IE). I rarely consider factors outside of which champ I'm playing. I'm not going to go with BotRK on Ashe because Singed is top and Mundo is the jungler for example. Some people will correctly say that rushing BT vs. IE gives you an early damage increase so it's better for mid-game focused comps that want to teamfight early, but honestly that sort of stuff is competitive level consideration.
 

bcl0328

Member
Speaking of items, does anyone buy the guaranteed crit item (sword of the divine maybe?)? It's a core suggested item on Draven by default, and I saw a Draven get it, but I feel like I hardly ever see it otherwise.

Was it listed as core because of Draven's old Q/passive behavior?

never seen anyone use it [on draven] or any other champ. draven is pretty lackluster now.
 
Thanks for the insight guys. I've been depending on lolking's guides, but many don't really specify a purchase order; just a grouping of "mid game" and "endgame" suggestions. Sometimes I've felt like I was buying them in a poor order and my damage output suffered for it. I'll keep all of your thoughts in mind going forward. I suppose a lot of it is a function of how your team is managing positioning in team fights and the ability of your champ to keep from being focused (in addition to your champs inherent skills and passives). I'll give all of this some thought in the context of how I've been playing (my ADC positioning and kiting needs a ton of work). I also now get why BoTRK is rushed on Vayne (attack speed proc'ing the silver bullets) but not on Quinn (attack speed is very tertiary on her to pure damage, LS to help her survive long enough to get those bird procs, and crit), for example.

Also, I went with Syndra with my IP. Played her for a few bot matches then took her out for a real spin went 1-1. Landing that Q E stun combo into the W and ult is hella gratifying. The W is one of the cooler looking dunks I've seen in the game. I find myself saying, "...hold dat, bitch!" after landing it. Something about dunking brings the blackness out.
 

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
I see. Is it common to see a hard support pick up a couple dorans rings in the event of a struggling lane? I've not seen that much, but...newbie.
Support items are cost efficient already, so buying Doran's items on a support would set you behind. Doran's Shield is the only valuable Doran item for supports, works really well in certain lanes because it blocks the auto damage and is super gold efficient.
 
I see. Is it common to see a hard support pick up a couple dorans rings in the event of a struggling lane? I've not seen that much, but...newbie.
Never personally seen it. I've seen Doran Shield being picked up by a support though.

A big part of Doran Ring is its passive, which you can't really use as support.
 

Boken

Banned
I see. Is it common to see a hard support pick up a couple dorans rings in the event of a struggling lane? I've not seen that much, but...newbie.

Support items are cost efficient already, so buying Doran's items on a support would set you behind. Doran's Shield is the only valuable Doran item for supports, works really well in certain lanes because it blocks the auto damage and is super gold efficient.

dorans shield is basically a bracer (and half a stout shield!). nulls = dorans ring, wraith band = dorans blade

you wouldnt buy a null on CM if you were getting dominated, youd get a bracer.

tl'd'r - dorans shield.

a sight stone is sorta a bracer too.
a philo stone is a luxury support item.
 

Ferga

Member
Never personally seen it. I've seen Doran Shield being picked up by a support though.

A big part of Doran Ring is its passive, which you can't really use as support.

I reckon HP/AP with sona is good enough to make it worth the gold.

Doran items give you the better early game but it isn't as gold efficient in the long run. A doran ring with sona will ensure you never lose trades in lane and always come out ahead (unless you screw up by getting poked too much).

It gives you the ability to bounce back after getting behind instead of being stuck on tower spamming W and trying to avoid getting poked. If you run gp10 quints and the utility masteries, you shouldn't have a problem with gold accumulation for wards and the eventual sight stone

And 4 mana per minion kill is nice but it really isn't necessary if you run utility masteries and have a philo stone.
 

Mothman91

Member
After getting two wins into Gold I, get demoted the next day lol.
I have to get use to this level of play. It's a learning experience at least.
Also, I need to just stick with 1/2 roles. I think my Jungle(I just use J4, lol) and my support are my stronger roles.
 
Maybe you should expand on your junglers. J4 was my main but it's permabanned here, so I picked up Hecarim and Nasus. I'll eventually get Zac. I've been seeing a lot more Hecarims lately too.
 

Blizzard

Banned
-8 LP in silver I, biggest loss I've had there yet.

I had two bad games, finally a good game! I was winning 1v2 fights, getting double and triple kills, we had nearly won...then our Riven went afk top lane.

Not just disconnected, but afk. Sitting in lane, in enemy vision, autoattacking minions if they got near. We couldn't safely push enemy towers because of the enemy taunt/snare/leona combination.

5-10 minutes later, after the other team had managed to recover, Riven came back...and threatened to feed if we did "that" again, whatever "that" was. With the other team farmed and recovered, they went on to win as everyone stayed in random spots for the rest of the game.

The game before AFK Riven was someone typing things like "die b it ch!" when a teammate would die, and saying they like throwing games in the lobby.

What on earth is with these people.
 

Horse Detective

Why the long case?
jb27m7JOV6eKjb.PNG
 
Similarly for say AP mid is there a general build rule for if you're getting your ass kicked that differs heavily from if you're stylin on em?

I main Lux in mid, generally if I'm losing lane you want to get whatever item will reduce their damage. Eg chain vest, negatron, or sometimes merc treads if I'm against Veigar.

If the lane is even or I'm winning or the jungler donates blue, I skip Chalice of Harmony and build for pure damage, and either go for kills or push the lane to their tower and look for roaming opportunities.
 

Boken

Banned
For those QQing about shyvanna nerfs,

Here's CertainlyT with some delicious context, revealing these to be something else that incorrectly made their way on to the PBE - simliary to the Garen changes.
"We aren't making imminent changes to Shyvana's Burnout. This datamine was another piece of Season 4 fighter testing bits of which I incorrectly promoted to the PBE (as seen with Garen). The plan was to pair it with some sexy changes to her dragon form.
FWIW our internal testing on all the changes currently shows the W you saw to be a bit too weak.
As to our overall view of Shyvana, I think she's balanced but her Dragon Form doeesn't feel sufficienly epic. I want Shyvana to be a bully, but a more moderate one early, in exchange for a lvl 16 dragon form where she becomes a literal raid boss, turning the enemy backline into a pile of charred corpses. Rez and run back."
He continued:
"Testing a bunch of stuff. Nothing has proven perfect just yet. Shyvana will stay damage focused, but I think that she needs a) greater reach and b) a better best cast scenario in post-35 minute team fights."

When pressed for more info on the changes, he spoke a bit about the specific W changes seen in todays update:
"I'm not actually certain the W will see changes. Again, this was just a random daily iteration you got a peek of"

also, ahri used to have a fox mask.

also, 3.11 is worlds patch.
Morello on recent Zac nerfs
Morello dropped off a few comments on the nerfs that hit Zac in 3.11, noting the upcoming world finals as a reason why they were a bit light.
"These nerfs are conservative as to not obliterate Zac in what will be the final patch for World Finals. We did want to nerf his power, not overdo it and remove a big staple in a number of team lineups (instead, we want to allow more variety in options).
which is a shame because on the point of gold efficiency, Trinity Force is way too gold efficient for a legendary tier item.

its more efficient than a dorans item. think about that.
 
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