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League of Legends |OT4| No Country for Old Karma

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K

Kureransu

Member
scy said:
It largely depends. I'd say that generally speaking, you shouldn't be going Hourglass->Deathcap->Morello. And they're not ideal pick-ups across the board, especially if you're not playing Lissandra aggressively to make plays with her initiation with the Hourglass. Like, Hourglass isn't the best pick-up if you're not utilizing the item for the opportunities it presents when you can be getting, say, Haunting Guise or Abyssal early and play more dominantly in lane and build up a bigger lead. Especially of note with how low the cs is that you need to be making the most out of what little gold is there.

It's not a primary thing but it's definitely worth noting. Especially since it's about all I can really comment on given lolking info.

Edit: But, yes, I'm working under the assumption of "same build every game" to mean "not reading the situation." Likewise, just the whole "hard to carry games" tone makes me think of lack of attempts at making plays which is one of the core reasons you get Hourglass on Lissandra, especially if you're getting it vs an AP lane like almost all of those situations are.
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Oh no, it's not so much i don't make plays, i defintiely do! I have no problem in the lane phase. Most people use all their spells on minions for some reason and i strike when they have no mana left. I'm all about going in only when it's safe. zhonya's and saved me from many churn the waters lol.

Let me ask you guys this, in team fights that have started, would E>W>Q>R (self)>Zhonyas>E>W>Q>E(blink effect) be the go to combo? or is the order wrong. I find that if i initiate from behind a wall, i am successful and have gotten up to a quadra with it since all her attacks hits everyone and doesn't scale down. If i do it while visible, I'm more 50/50 where they will slaughter me as soon as i W. I'm thinking i should E>R(self)Zhonyas maybe?
 
G

garath

Member
Kureransu said:
Sorry guys i ran off to lunch (at work). Thanks for the input to all of you. I buy regular wards quite often along with sight stone. The archangel staff i used because of the additional mana. The free upgrade scales my AP as well 1000 extra mana, so i can cast a ton of spells in team fights without ever having to worry about mana depletion. Don't look at the order as i move my items around a lot i generally have 1-4 be active items and i move them around late game to certain numbers depending on importance.

I'll look into being more supportive with sona. i think i'll still go archangels for the mana, but definitely will go sightstone and more support items.

As far as deaths go. I agree they are a bit too high as well. To my defense a lot of the time i'm doing the best in the game (when mid and jungle, probably because i ward my jungle and river bushes all the time when i play those two roles), and i will be focused more than the adc unless i'm playing support. Most games where i have high kills, i'll be like 8 and 1 most of the game. but when we get into team fights, i start to snowball in deaths. Perhaps i expect my team to peel better or what not, or maybe i'm still engaging a bit too early. But i git gibbed the moment i appear on the fight scene.

Thanks again everyone for the feedback, i'll revisit my builds as well.
Click to expand...

Staying alive in teamfights is hard. It's one of the flaws in my game I've identified and have been working very hard to improve. When you watch a pro play, they are VERY aware of what spells have been cast and how much health they have and you'll see them work magic with their position - flashing OUT just to a place that they are no longer the focus, etc etc. You can always attempt to reengage if it looks like you can make an impact but disengaging is huge and a skill a lot of lower elo people lack. Instead they'll go way too deep and/or chase and die leaving their team out to dry. I often see pros engage and almost immediately disengage. They'll bait a ton of burst and leave the enemies vulnerable to counter engage.

When I play a tank/engager I'll engage the fight, soak some ults and almost immediately attempt to fall back. What usually happens is 1 or 2 overzealous enemies chase me too deep and they get collapsed on. It takes a lot of work to improve that aspect. Gets crazy in those teamfights.

As far as Sona, I'm not sure I'm seeing the need for Archangels. Sona is my most played support in ranked and I can't remember ever having mana problems in teamfights mid to late game. The fights are over long before I could use all my mana. Though my standard support page does include 4 maga regen per level glyphs to help with the laning phase. Try it out. The 2700 gold you are spending on archangels could buy a locket straight up. If anything an Athene's gives you MR and cooldown reduction as well as the mana regen. It would be a much better buy. Still, not something I'd buy in a normal game on a Sona support.
 
H

Horse Detective

Why the long case?
Wolf Akela said:
iMOeV9pOB9k8h.gif
Click to expand...

This gif perfectly captures me yesterday.

Taking a break from the game to settle frustration.
 
P

PhillipCostigan

Member
if you're really struggling with mana, mana management is handy to practice.

Or get a chalice, since it builds into Mikael's Crucible. Much more useful than Archangel's.
 
K

Kureransu

Member
garath said:
Staying alive in teamfights is hard. It's one of the flaws in my game I've identified and have been working very hard to improve. When you watch a pro play, they are VERY aware of what spells have been cast and how much health they have and you'll see them work magic with their position - flashing OUT just to a place that they are no longer the focus, etc etc. You can always attempt to reengage if it looks like you can make an impact but disengaging is huge and a skill a lot of lower elo people lack. Instead they'll go way too deep and/or chase and die leaving their team out to dry. I often see pros engage and almost immediately disengage. They'll bait a ton of burst and leave the enemies vulnerable to counter engage.

When I play a tank/engager I'll engage the fight, soak some ults and almost immediately attempt to fall back. What usually happens is 1 or 2 overzealous enemies chase me too deep and they get collapsed on. It takes a lot of work to improve that aspect. Gets crazy in those teamfights.

As far as Sona, I'm not sure I'm seeing the need for Archangels. Sona is my most played support in ranked and I can't remember ever having mana problems in teamfights mid to late game. The fights are over long before I could use all my mana. Though my standard support page does include 4 maga regen per level glyphs to help with the laning phase. Try it out. The 2700 gold you are spending on archangels could buy a locket straight up. If anything an Athene's gives you MR and cooldown reduction as well as the mana regen. It would be a much better buy. Still, not something I'd buy in a normal game on a Sona support.
Click to expand...


OK, i'll try it out. Nothing relaly to lose. I feel like i'm only successful with sona as much as i a now because i'm playing bronze, so thanks. I'll look into the options presented.
 
D

drawkcaB

Member
scy said:
It largely depends. I'd say that generally speaking, you shouldn't be going Hourglass->Deathcap->Morello. And they're not ideal pick-ups across the board, especially if you're not playing Lissandra aggressively to make plays with her initiation with the Hourglass.
Click to expand...

Agreed on Deathcap (liss works stupid well with HG/Liandrys as you pointed out and Abysal) but looking at his lolking I don't think he's stuck building in the same order. Same items, yes, but the order is different. That's why I didn't see any specific problems.

Kureransu said:
Let me ask you guys this, in team fights that have started, would E>W>Q>R (self)>Zhonyas>E>W>Q>E(blink effect) be the go to combo? or is the order wrong. I find that if i initiate from behind a wall, i am successful and have gotten up to a quadra with it since all her attacks hits everyone and doesn't scale down. If i do it while visible, I'm more 50/50 where they will slaughter me as soon as i W. I'm thinking i should E>R(self)Zhonyas maybe?
Click to expand...

This is correct for a diving Liss. Think of Lissandra as having a passive taunt on her ultimate. Even in pro games you see it happen all the time. Liss E's in, and ults herself immediately. The other team knows it's coming and they still end up blowing abilities for that slim chance they can plant some damage on Liss. What you're going for is initiation. Getting the enemy to blow abilities while dealing damage, while trapping them in a considerable slow AoE is excellent.

Afterwards is situational. If the enemy team switched focus and hasn't re-targetted you after your ult is done, then W and fire off a Q. Once they see that juicy squishy Liss in the scrum is dealing damage again they'll refocus then you Zhonya's.. If they're quick to retarget after ult, Zhonya's right away. If they took their sweet time then you probably have E back on cooldown and can get out or chase the straggler(s).

Also, Liss always has a fallback option if you aren't confident you can survive long in middle of the fight: peeling for your ADC/damage dealers. As far as AP carries goes, she's among the best at that task.
 
E

Edwardo

Member
This is how I do it top with him:

Rush tear then brutalizer, LW is great, as is Bloodthirster. Finish Manamune. Evolve your Q it does great damage for isolated targets. Evolve E and then R after. Tbh, i've never built him with any defensive items, other than a late Guardian Angel.

Try him jungle too, and evolve E first for that.
 
O

Ocho

Member
Kureransu said:
Sorry guys i ran off to lunch (at work). Thanks for the input to all of you. I buy regular wards quite often along with sight stone. The archangel staff i used because of the additional mana. The free upgrade scales my AP as well 1000 extra mana, so i can cast a ton of spells in team fights without ever having to worry about mana depletion. Don't look at the order as i move my items around a lot i generally have 1-4 be active items and i move them around late game to certain numbers depending on importance.

I'll look into being more supportive with sona. i think i'll still go archangels for the mana, but definitely will go sightstone and more support items.

As far as deaths go. I agree they are a bit too high as well. To my defense a lot of the time i'm doing the best in the game (when mid and jungle, probably because i ward my jungle and river bushes all the time when i play those two roles), and i will be focused more than the adc unless i'm playing support. Most games where i have high kills, i'll be like 8 and 1 most of the game. but when we get into team fights, i start to snowball in deaths. Perhaps i expect my team to peel better or what not, or maybe i'm still engaging a bit too early. But i git gibbed the moment i appear on the fight scene.

Thanks again everyone for the feedback, i'll revisit my builds as well.
Click to expand...

You should most definitively never buy archangels. Be wise with your mana. Don't just spam. Get mana pots at the start or faerie charm. In bronze 5, I'd recommend you rush Philostone -> Kage's Lucky Pick -> Ruby Sighstone -> Boots -> Twin Shadows or Aegis (if your team doesn't have an aegis) -> Mobility Boots -> Shurelia.

I don't like your mastery pages and runes. For runes you should get Gold quints, Magic Pen reds, armor yellows, and MR blues. I would suggest 1-8-21 for masteries.
 
K

Kureransu

Member
drawkcaB said:
Agreed on Deathcap (liss works stupid well with HG/Liandrys as you pointed out and Abysal) but looking at his lolking I don't think he's stuck building in the same order. Same items, yes, but the order is different. That's why I didn't see any specific problems.



This is correct for a diving Liss. Think of Lissandra as having a passive taunt on her ultimate. Even in pro games you see it happen all the time. Liss E's in, and ults herself immediately. The other team knows it's coming and they still end up blowing abilities for that slim chance they can plant some damage on Liss. What you're going for is initiation. Getting the enemy to blow abilities while dealing damage, while trapping them in a considerable slow AoE is excellent.

Afterwards is situational. If the enemy team switched focus and hasn't re-targetted you after your ult is done, then W and fire off a Q. Once they see that juicy squishy Liss in the scrum is dealing damage again they'll refocus then you Zhonya's.. If they're quick to retarget after ult, Zhonya's right away. If they took their sweet time then you probably have E back on cooldown and can get out or chase the straggler(s).

Also, Liss always has a fallback option if you aren't confident you can survive long in middle of the fight: peeling for your ADC/damage dealers. As far as AP carries goes, she's among the best at that task.
Click to expand...

Peeling is where most of my kills come from. I was checking for best initiation. thanks

Side note: I love when people turret dive liss. Take one hit and lock them under tower lol.
 
L

LogicStep

Member
Tristana is the first ADC I use that I really enjoy and seem to be good at with thanks to the jump mechanic allowing me to go back to safety or rush down if I have to. Any tips or a good video on how to play ADC effectively early, mid, late game, and in team fights?
 
D

drawkcaB

Member
zazrx said:
Tristana is the first ADC I use that I really enjoy and seem to be good at with thanks to the jump mechanic allowing me to go back to safety or rush down if I have to. Any tips or a good video on how to play ADC effectively early, mid, late game, and in team fights?
Click to expand...

I'm not a particularly good at ADC, but one tip I can give that improved my game - particularly with an ADC like Trist - is never go for the backline squishies, target the closest threat, and stay safe whenever possible.

If the opposing ADC is dumb enough to jump into the fray and get into range of everyone including you, then yeah target him. But if the only target you can safely hit is the frontline tank then so be it, that's what Last Whisper is for. You will catch shit from your teammates because "noob focused the tank GG" but it's the correct way to play ADC. The ADC is heavy sustained damage. You deal 0 sustained damage if you're dead.

Kureransu said:
Side note: I love when people turret dive liss. Take one hit and lock them under tower lol.
Click to expand...

I like when loudmouth Lux's try to ult me and I ult myself. Eat shit you giggly trollop.

kayos90 said:
I need to play more premades. Last night was extremely fun despite losing a lot.
Click to expand...

Spectated a few matches while the baby was crying last night. I thought you guys played well.
 
L

LogicStep

Member
drawkcaB said:
I'm not a particularly good at ADC, but one tip I can give that improved my game - particularly with an ADC like Trist - is never go for the backline squishies, target the closest threat, and stay safe whenever possible.

If the opposing ADC is dumb enough to jump into the fray and get into range of everyone including you, then yeah target him. But if the only target you can safely hit is the frontline tank then so be it, that's what Last Whisper is for. You will catch shit from your teammates because "noob focused the tank GG" but it's the correct way to play ADC. The ADC is heavy sustained damage. You deal 0 sustained damage if you're dead.
Click to expand...

I will keep that in mind. That's what I normally do but due to team pressure on focusing the squishy guys I get killed. I have gotten shit from teammates for focusing a tank so yeah. I'll just ignore them.
 
D

drawkcaB

Member
Mister Wilhelm said:
Mana issues make it not viable, I've tried it.

He also falls off.
Click to expand...

The mana argument I buy, but malphite is fairly mana intensive too and it's not seen as enough of a problem to deny him as a top. If Malphite can pick up chalice to help is mana issues (matchup dependant), why would it be different for Maokai? Were you maxing Q or E?

Also, I'm not sure how a champ with an ult that reduces damage by 20% and very strong initiation, and CC falls off to the point it's a major problem.
 
L

le bip

Neo Member
drawkcaB said:
Also, I'm not sure how a champ with an ult that reduces damage by 20% and very strong initiation, and CC falls off to the point it's a major problem.
Click to expand...

You nailed it. The fact is that Maokai has so much utility that he can work greatly in a low-economy environment as the jungle currently is, and leave the top lane slot to champions who need items to maximize the power of their kit. This obviously doesn't prevent you from playing him in lane, it's just the reasoning behind most of the best jungle picks. Talking about the mana issue, I think his costs are way heavier than Malphite's.
 
P

PROGRAM_IX

Member
Welp, officially the worst duo partner EUW. :(

Probably better keep solo from now on. Dragging friends down sucks, and I've got no farther to drop anyway.
 
D

drawkcaB

Member
le bip said:
You nailed it. The fact is that Maokai has so much utility that he can work greatly in a low-economy environment as the jungle currently is, and leave the top lane slot to champions who need items to maximize the power of their kit. This obviously doesn't prevent you from playing him in lane, it's just the reasoning behind most of the best jungle picks. Talking about the mana issue, I think his costs are way heavier than Malphite's.
Click to expand...

I'll need to try him out and confirm the mana issue. On paper, Malph's Q tops out at 90 mana per use and his E tops out at 70 per use. Maokai's E tops out at 110 per use while his Q is flat 55 per use at all ranks. Both Ws can be ignored because neither champ levels them first, generally speaking, although Malph's passive on W certainly helps out his wave clear and should considered. Mao's level 3 E can wave clear the caster minion line completely and bring the melee line down to about ~75% health w/o any additional AP. I suspect a doran's ring or HG fixes that problem, so 110 mana for a full wave clear, barring the siege minion. Mana cost and damage on Mao Q/Malph E are comparable with the side effects (knockback & slow vs. attack speed reduction) having different values depending on the match-up, I would think. Again, I need to try this out, but the normal abilities on paper look about even, at least not a gigantic gap mana cost wise.

The real difference maker is the ults, there's no doubt about that. Malph's 100 mana cost for his ult is dramatically better than Maokai's persistent drain and opens up arguably superior itemization because whereas mana/mana regen is nice on Malph, it's probably required on Maokai.

I have no doubts that Maokai is better as jungler, but I have few practical concerns which is why I've been giving this some thought. First, Malphite is one my few top laners. I don't particularly like to jungle him. Between the odds of getting top and him being essentially perma-banned at my rank, I'm questioning whether I should stop playing him. Second, even after a recent small culling my champion pool is still too large, particularly for junglers since there's too many I enjoy playing. One solution I came up with is the realization that several of my jungle and mid picks can work well top in a pinch, so I'm trying to dump any top only champions from my roster, maybe picking up the ones I really like to play once I feel good about the rest of my picks. So one possible candidate to keep as a multirole champ is Maokai in favour of Malphite.

Keep in mind I don't intend to just pick Maokai willy nilly. It'd have to be the right circumstances, particularly pairing lane Maokai with a damage heavy jungler (Vi, Shyvana, jungle Zed, Jungle Yi). Also, I have no pretenses that this will be secret OP that will carry me to Diamond. My goal is still Gold in S4 and I'm hoping champ familiarity (or unfamiliarity for my opponent) makes giving this a real go reasonable.
 
L

le bip

Neo Member
drawkcaB said:
I'll need to try him out and confirm the mana issue. On paper, Malph's Q tops out at 90 mana per use and his E tops out at 70 per use. Maokai's E tops out at 110 per use while his Q is flat 55 per use at all ranks. Both Ws can be ignored because neither champ levels them first, generally speaking, although Malph's passive on W certainly helps out his wave clear and should considered. Mao's level 3 E can wave clear the caster minion line completely and bring the melee line down to about ~75% health w/o any additional AP. I suspect a doran's ring or HG fixes that problem, so 110 mana for a full wave clear, barring the siege minion. Mana cost and damage on Mao Q/Malph E are comparable with the side effects (knockback & slow vs. attack speed reduction) having different values depending on the match-up, I would think. Again, I need to try this out, but the normal abilities on paper look about even, at least not a gigantic gap mana cost wise.

The real difference maker is the ults, there's no doubt about that. Malph's 100 mana cost for his ult is dramatically better than Maokai's persistent drain and opens up arguably superior itemization because whereas mana/mana regen is nice on Malph, it's probably required on Maokai.

I have no doubts that Maokai is better as jungler, but I have few practical concerns which is why I've been giving this some thought. First, Malphite is one my few top laners. I don't particularly like to jungle him. Between the odds of getting top and him being essentially perma-banned at my rank, I'm questioning whether I should stop playing him. Second, even after a recent small culling my champion pool is still too large, particularly for junglers since there's too many I enjoy playing. One solution I came up with is the realization that several of my jungle and mid picks can work well top in a pinch, so I'm trying to dump any top only champions from my roster, maybe picking up the ones I really like to play once I feel good about the rest of my picks. So one possible candidate to keep as a multirole champ is Maokai in favour of Malphite.

Keep in mind I don't intend to just pick Maokai willy nilly. It'd have to be the right circumstances, particularly pairing lane Maokai with a damage heavy jungler (Vi, Shyvana, jungle Zed, Jungle Yi). Also, I have no pretenses that this will be secret OP that will carry me to Diamond. My goal is still Gold in S4 and I'm hoping champ familiarity (or unfamiliarity for my opponent) makes giving this a real go reasonable.
Click to expand...

I see. I guess you're on NA, here in EUW nobody bans Malphite anymore, he's part of the reason I managed to start my climb from silver. Also, I'm pretty sure he can work in the jungle in Silver-Gold elo, he's just blue dependant and a mediocre ganker pre-6. If you wanna improve your champion pool you might wanna look to other champs as well, which are probably more efficient in lane than Maokai, such as Elise or Zac.
 
D

drawkcaB

Member
le bip said:
I see. I guess you're on NA, here in EUW nobody bans Malphite anymore, he's part of the reason I managed to start my climb from silver.
Click to expand...

That sounds nice...=(

Also, I'm pretty sure he can work in the jungle in Silver-Gold elo, he's just blue dependant and a mediocre ganker pre-6. If you wanna improve your champion pool you might wanna look to other champs as well, which are probably more efficient in lane than Maokai, such as Elise or Zac.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Malphite can jungle, I just hate it the few times I've done it blind pick. Elise is one of favorite junglers and I've already slotted her as one of my "multi-role" champs as was talking about. And Zac...I've complained about it before but I he hasn't clicked for me in the jungle. I haven't done well with him so far and to make things worse I just haven't enjoyed him much. I should really try again. I mean, I sucked balls with Vi for the initial games I played with her, but I still had fun so I kept on going.

...I wish Naut was a viable top. I'd play the hell out of top Naut.
 
T

Type2

Member
Ken said:
that only happens because bad people lose to it
Click to expand...

Edwardo said:
Went up against a jungle trist last game.
Click to expand...

DeadNames said:
Went against a jungle Quinn. Thank God the rest of the team was a bunch of idiots.
Click to expand...

That vayne was toxic as hell, fed first blood and blamed mid. I mean guess what if i saw a jungle vayne against me as a jungler id invade and kill you too. Managed to dumpster our bot lane and grab us turrets and dragons with my roaming. Got vayne and kass fed along with me and won.
 
J

jerd

Member
Jungling is so fun. Like stalking prey
to cc while someone else gets the kills

Edit: Also, I just loaded into an ARAM game for the first time in a long time, and the announcer said "welcome to the murder bridge". Is that new? I definitely don't remember that.
 
E

Edwardo

Member
DeadNames said:
Garen (heh) and Pantheon... :(

Edit: I personally hate jungling. So boring. I'd rather support.
Click to expand...

Both of those are a pretty hard matchup for me when I play Kha'Zix. The only thing I could suggest is to build some early armor and try to farm as much as you can early. I used to build sunfire cape on him when I first started playing him. Maybe Randuins could work too. You could make up any lost farm when Panth goes to ult another lane.
 
B

Blizzard

Banned
jerd21 said:
Jungling is so fun. Like stalking prey
to cc while someone else gets the kills

Edit: Also, I just loaded into an ARAM game for the first time in a long time, and the announcer said "welcome to the murder bridge". Is that new? I definitely don't remember that.
Click to expand...
I think that's been in there at least a couple of months, since I remember hearing it when I played ARAM more.
 
S

scy

Member
Generally speaking, you don't want to overharass with Zed's Shadow + Shadow Slash (W + E) since you'll leave yourself rather vulnerable doing that. Use it when you know you're safe without your W escape up.

As for Kha'zix, do note that a lot of his kit comes down to the isolation damage he deals. If you can't reliably force the isolation (and/or not really sure how much damage you put out in isolation), you'll just end up not doing well with him. On top of that, a lot of bruisers just ruin his day in a straight 1v1.
 
K

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
While I enjoyed playing assassins a long time ago I found out that they are just not as fun as they used to be.
 
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