Support NeoGAF

[Schmattakopf]

yeah that's what I figured out against him a few matches ago but I dunno, every time I play against a ryze they always find up kills just sort of randomly and just become ridiculously stronk. like, he'll tp bot and get a triple or something and I'll be doomed forever

I should probably play him someday to learn his strengths and weaknesses, but his style is so unlike mine I'm really not interested in the slightest :/

edit: but like, strategy against ryze should be just "don't face him, go gank", forever? I know his clear is really bad, so pushing him against tower makes him lose a lot of minions and delays his catalyst and tear, but anything else? he's like my crux mid. I feel like every other mid I can beat, depending on their skill, obviously, but ryze is always an uphill battle

You have range and you can push, so early game, either you kill him flat out or you push and roam. Facing him or ganking, you should have the upper hand because you can farm and harass at a distance with spells. Eventually that's not true, because Ryze becomes good at everything late game, including clear, but it's a slow process that you can take advantage of. Before he has ult, Tear and Catalyst, he's pretty weak and his clear can paralyse him if you push.

As for getting random kills... you should be able to follow or punish, just like any other mid.

 

[zkylon]

The longer the game gets, the less you want to face him. Ideally, you'd abuse him early through by pushing and harassing at the same time with the E aoe to delay the time it takes for him to get strong. Ryze gets pretty strong after level 9 (and tear+cata), so be careful of trading with him then. In essence though, it's a sword vs spear match up so play it like that.

If ryzes are beating you with tp, you need to play more aggressively in the lane (ignite vs tp), either join the tp fight if you have the time or just push and take his tower (after you take his tower though, make sure you put lots of pressure on the other lanes to make up for the ryze tp). and make sure you time his tp for your team (~5min)

in the team fight stage, try to encourage your team to kite backwards constantly, rather than smashing into the other team (the common way to team fight in solo queue) because ryze is more suited to that style of team fighting compared to lux who prefers to kite with range.

thanks for the tips

why the power surge at level 9 tho?

also yeah on the teamfighting part. actually pretty much all my mid champions are like that, hard engages and burst, then a lot of kiting.

I should probably start picking up new types of mid, really.

I may buy khazix, and I should try out ryze. and I really need to get better at tf.

but lux is so much fun T_T

 

[bjaelke]

Piltover Finest

Really looking forward to those quests. Hopefully the buff will be moderate.

Maybe it'll be a permanent move speed buff or a gold reward. They don't really have the Kha'zix/Rengar potential.

 

[zkylon]

You have range and you can push, so early game, either you kill him flat out or you push and roam. Facing him or ganking, you should have the upper hand because you can farm and harass at a distance with spells. Eventually that's not true, because Ryze becomes good at everything late game, including clear, but it's a slow process that you can take advantage of. Before he has ult, Tear and Catalyst, he's pretty weak and his clear can paralyse him if you push.

As for getting random kills... you should be able to follow or punish, just like any other mid.

yeah random kills are more of a just anecdotal thing, I think it happens a lot with ryze because like when the jungler gets caught invading or something, ryze has it really easy just finishing the guy off: just point and click cc and a ton of damage, and he can get there pretty fast with his ult.

 

[Subtle]

Piltover Finest

Maybe it'll be a permanent move speed buff or a gold reward. They don't really have the Kha'zix/Rengar potential.

That Caitlyn is very convincing. The color on Vi's armor is off. Should be grey :|

And yeah movement speed would be real nice on Ashe. Don't now what Sejuani could get though. Would a permanent AP/AP increase for whoever wins the quest (AD for Ashe, AP for Sejuani and Lissandra) be too OP?

Edit: maybe more health? All three of them lack survivability.

 

[AdventChild]

Losed 4-5 normal games in a row. Trolls everywhere. Then I decided to go Ranked with J4 jungle and WIN. Flame-clean chat, good pings, helping counterjungles. So relaxing.

BTW, im starting with Jax jungle, how could i build he?

 

[PhillipCostigan]

You could start by not jungling him. He's really not that good in the new jungle. He requires too much farm.

On second thought, I hope this is the last Quinn buff, otherwise she'll be FotM and get nerfed like Vi and Hec I'be had too many if my favourite champions get found out by the wider community and then nerfed.

 

[Ferga]

Losed 4-5 normal games in a row. Trolls everywhere. Then I decided to go Ranked with J4 jungle and WIN. Flame-clean chat, good pings, helping counterjungles. So relaxing.

BTW, im starting with Jax jungle, how could i build he?

I have better games in ranked than solo draft as well. Being paired with premades in solo draft is a nightmare most of the times.

At least in ranked, you can calm individuals down from raging.

You can't calm 3-4 people raging at you for doing nothing.

And pings are so nice. I really like the new ping system. I use all 4 pings constantly in games to act as the great leader. Pinging 'danger' to disengage when someone ccs the enemy tank and stop people from initiating on the tank. Pinging 'on my way' and an estimated timer for ganks. And pinging 'enemy missing' on the mini map to tell my team where the enemy was last seen.

But what I really love is the "need assistance" ping. I got that hotkeyed and will continuously use it in team fights to show my team who to target and when to follow my lead when backing off from an already won fight.

What I've found is that people rage at you for telling them what towers to take and what objectives are more important. But if you can ping a few times, people will follow your lead. I guess people like sound over words.

 

[Terbinator]

Not sure if nerf? After one point in each I maxed W first anyways, for greater shield, and then E. During laning I'd only ever use E after Q'ing in, to push the wave, or desperately trying to escape, never when just harassing. Basically this means that the passive and Q, my biggest harassinig tools, are not mutually exclusive. The nerf is mostly at level 1 as you won't have the passive and Q at the same time.

This is a pretty monster nerf and i say this as a "good" Thresh player.

Flay is just a knockback really and nothing too special. Beforehand levelling Q got you the passive bonus to do more dmg as well as having your grab on a lower CD and do more damage too. They've basically made his shittest move now the shittest and most important whilst forcing you to level up Q last, essentially.

20 second CD on Q is rotten.

 

[Boken]

so do you think he deserved it

 

[Terbinator]

so do you think he deserved it

No. I think Zkylon's suggestions for the shield were better.

I say no because beforehand you still have the option to level up shield and grab equally - both decent moves. They've just made E be levelled because it has to now, not because it was ever that great, really.

 

[dimb]

20 second CD on Q is rotten.

wow it's almost like you have to be good.

worse than lux or zed nerf complaining.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

It's not really as bad a nerf as people think it is, unless you're a bad Thresh player. It'll teach you to be less carefree with your hooks, as that was honestly the most broken part of his kit imo. You could throw out hooks for free and even if you were shit, you might hit a lucky hook that you could go ham with.

The change means good players will still have the same utility, but can also maximise the damage he does because of Flay's higher base damage.

Good change imo.

(also the cd is 18 at rank one, down to ~15 with cdr masteries. It's lower than Blitz's hook, has a faster missile speed, cots less mana and has longer range.)

It's not just a knock back, if you're using it as just a knock back, you're using it wrong. You can knock someone in any direction you want, from whatever way you're facing. That's a HUGE amount of utility, and it synergizes incredibly well wit his ult, as it's a guaranteed broken wall.

wow it's almost like you have to be good.

worse than lux or zed nerf complaining.

Yeah pretty much this.

If you're a "good" Thresh player as you say, you honestly shouldn't be complaining. I'm not.

 

[Terbinator]

wow it's almost like you have to be good.

worse than lux or zed nerf complaining.

Here we go. The fault must be me...

It's not really as bad a nerf as people think it is, unless you're a bad Thresh player. It'll teach you to be less carefree with your hooks, as that was honestly the most broken part of his kit imo. You could throw out hooks for free and even if you were shit, you might hit a lucky hook that you could go ham with.

The change means good players will still have the same utility, but can also maximise the damage he does because of Flay's higher base damage.

Good change imo.

(also the cd is 18 at rank one, down to ~15 with cdr masteries. It's lower than Blitz's hook, has a faster missile speed, cots less mana and has longer range.)

It's not just a knock back, if you're using it as just a knock back, you're using it wrong. You can knock someone in any direction you want, from whatever way you're facing. That's a HUGE amount of utility, and it synergizes incredibly well wit his ult, as it's a guaranteed broken wall.



Yeah pretty much this.

If you're a "good" Thresh player as you say, you honestly shouldn't be complaining. I'm not.

In terms of harass maybe it could do with some fixing, but moving the massive from Q to E is just lazy. In terms of a grab it is just as useful as Blitz IMO, maybe even worse in terms of kill ability and you can dodge Thresh's more easily than Blitz.

As for the knockback, i know it isn't just that, that was just the easiest term for it.

 

[crimsonspider89]

The Q was not the broken part.Thresh will just level up W then E. And Play more passively. This hurts Vayne and such more than Thresh TBH.

It hurts the ADC who need the CC to perform the kills early game.

This is a really big deal. We have to choose between our godlike harass tool and pull which is a pretty big thing to his game.

So... Thresh will play more harass and passively with ADC who have good AA range instead.

 

[Boken]

the Q was one of the problems (the other being an aoe shield on an agressive initiating support), but the worst of them

his Q gave him low cd initiation and great harass and incredible dueling power

gross

The Q was not the broken part.
This is a really big deal. We have to choose between our godlike harass tool and pull which is a pretty big thing to his game.

I dont see a problem here. How can you say that before, the skill gave you everything (pull and godlike harass) and say it wasnt broken :/

 

[PhillipCostigan]

Of course it was the broken part. And it only hurts your early game kill power if you suck.

The Thresh hook is not easy to dodge if you use it properly. If you stand facing them like a moron so they can see the full wind up, of course it is. If you don't account for the target moving due to the cast time, of course it is. But if that's what you're doing you're a bad Thresh, simple as.

Thresh's Q was the first skillshot in the game where you didn't have to be facing the target to do (Zac's Q being the second, I think). With Blitz's Q you have to be facing the direction, Blit's Q moves slower and it has shorter range. Thresh's pull is so much better it's not even funny.

An extra 4.5 seconds on your Q is not going to hurt you as much as you think it is if you're a good player, simple as.

And now your harass is tied to the ability with a lower cooldown and has more damage and works better with his ult.

 

[crimsonspider89]

Except for the fact to secure a kill early game, requires you to blow exhaust, ignite, aa and even then was not always a guaranteed kill.

Slow moving, long startup animation, easily dodged, doesn't pull through walls. Now he lost his harass tool which wasn't effective early game and didn't impact heavily till mid to late game.

Now you have to pick between the pull which was what his combo was based off of or the bad E.

His Q was not the broken thing at all. The broken things are his lantern and his passive.

The lantern performs so many things and his passive saves him so much gold and allows him to deal nice damage with his ulti without any AP.

EDIT: Blitz's pull is faster than thresh's. And ALWAYS secures a kill.

 

[Fallen_Hero]

That passive was too strong anyway. It makes laning against him with ANY melee support a complete nightmare.

 

[Terbinator]

The lantern performs so many things and his passive saves him so much gold and allows him to deal nice damage with his ulti without any AP.

EDIT: Blitz's pull is faster than thresh's. And ALWAYS secures a kill.

The passive isn't that bad. He doesn't get armour per level IIRC so you have to gather the souls so risk exposing/using your lantern.

That passive was too strong anyway. It makes laning against him with ANY melee support a complete nightmare.

Taric is still a competitive match-up. I think the ADC suffers more than the support from Thresh.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

Except for the fact to secure a kill early game, requires you to blow exhaust, ignite, aa and even then was not always a guaranteed kill.

you kidding me? If you have to blow your load like that so early on with Thresh, I really don't know why you play support.

Slow moving, long startup animation, easily dodged, doesn't pull through walls. Now he lost his harass tool which wasn't effective early game and didn't impact heavily till mid to late game.

It's not slow moving, at all. It's only easily dodged if you're bad at using it. As for pulling through walls, how broken do you want it to be? And if the harass wasn't that effective until mid-late game, why not just continue to level your Q and then level your harass tool when it gets to mid game? Your logic makes no sense.

Now you have to pick between the pull which was what his combo was based off of or the bad E.

His E is not bad, at all. If you fail to see the immense utility it gives, I don;t believe you've played him that much.

 

[crimsonspider89]

Your right. His E isn't that bad but it serves the least function.

And no, not joking.

Every game I support in, win the lane.

I am not ranked high due to solo queue annoys the crap out of me.

Get paired with people who don't think.

You do realize how much damage the passive on his Q does is based off his souls right?

 

[Boken]

EDIT: Blitz's pull is faster than thresh's. And ALWAYS secures a kill.

blitz has to live with a 16s cd at rank 5

has more risk involved
therefore should have more reward

and look on the bright side: thresh is going to be so strong vs leona (and melee in teamfights) now, it wont even be funny


@crimsonspider
youre seriously confusing me, you make it sound like you dont want to lose the passive because it was bloody amazing ad that his pull is bloody amazing

so you make it sound op and vindicate everybody youre arguing against :/ if your argument is that pull+damage passive isnt the problem, why should you be upset that they split it up?

tbh, i think thresh will still be strong (against melee), just not the godlike allrounder he is right now

 

[PhillipCostigan]

Your right. His E isn't that bad but it serves the least function.

And no, not joking.

Every game I support in, win the lane.

I am not ranked high due to solo queue annoys the crap out of me.

Get paired with people who don't think.

You do realize how much damage the passive on his Q does is based off his souls right?

Yes, I do. I have played him a lot.

You said yourself (and I'm going by your logic here) that the harass passive, the one that's moving from Q to E, only really becomes effective from mid-late game. Those are your words.

So, by your logic, you could still level Q first to get the shorter cooldown, and just wait until mid-late game to level the harass, because it only becomes effective at the stage of the game, when you collect more souls.

Therefore, what are you complaining about? I do not get your logic.

 

[crimsonspider89]

Because it kinda makes his combo less effective.

Goes for hook- ulti- aa-flay.

Who knows. I may just be sleepy.

And grouchy. Who knows.

 

[Ken]

The age of Thresh is over. The time of the Nami has come.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

Because it kinda makes his combo less effective.

Goes for hook- ulti- aa-flay.

Who knows. I may just be sleepy.

And grouchy. Who knows.

It doesn't really, because the damage you potentially lose by max Q first now, you get back because of the higher base damage on flay. And if you max flay first you do more damage.

It's a lot of crying over nothing imo. He get off light if you ask me, unlike Xin, Vi, Hecarim, Jarvan to an extent, Taric, Rengar, Zyra etc.

He's probably had the least significant change of any OP champ in a long time.

 

[dimb]

The age of Thresh is over. The time of the Nami has come.

I decide what the tide will bring.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

The age of Thresh is over. The time of the Nami has come.

*snigger*

Until they change the dumb missile speed thing on her Q, she'll never be good enough.

 

[dimb]

*snigger*

Until they change the dumb missile speed thing on her Q, she'll never be good enough.

get good. my bubbles are true.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

get good. my bubbles are true.

come back to me when it doesn't take as long to hit someone who's right beside me as it does to hit someone at max range and maybe we'll talk.

Nami's only good in ARAMs.

 

[Boken]

its like karthus Q

 

[Einbroch]

This Q to E change on Thresh actually makes him a better top lane.

 

[Boken]

yeah hes so good vs melee now

 

[scy]

On the subject of Thresh, his W is good but it's a one-point wonder skill. That's also why it's so good: It's a one-point wonder skill. I'm not sure what these max W first people are doing in lane.

His Q was the reason he was a great aggressive support in lane. The damage on it at Level 1 is great. I'm not entirely sure where we're getting that it's a mid-game only thing. It's Souls + a percentage of your tAD. Even early game, it's adding 40-70+ damage very quickly. The Souls part isn't the bulk of the damage early game, it's the scaling part.

And, yes, Thresh pull is worse than Blitzcrank pull (slower, not as big of a pull) but it's good enough to be a guaranteed kill or, at the very least, a guaranteed Cleanse and/or Flash. It does have the advantage of being able to hide the animation or cancel into it. And, well, not destroying your mana pool just to use it.

Honestly, this isn't that significant of a change. It's a smart change but it's not the end of the world for him.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

The wait time between champs is too long :/

I want Lissandra nooooooow...

Having to wait until next weekend sucks.

 

[y2dvd]

I guess my play style was inefficient before because this change plays right into it. Like I said, after 1 point in each ability I maxed W, E, then Q, so in my play style I come out ahead after level 3.

I can see it depending on the adc you're laning with. Maybe if you were with a poke style champ like Cait, you'd want to max shield so she can easily harass. I like going balls to the walls deep if I land that hook.

I think I need to take a break from LoL for like a week or two. I'm playing like shit lately.

Don't worry, I went down 2 divisions in the span of like a day lol. Worst streak ever and I didn't know when to stop. ;[

It's not really as bad a nerf as people think it is, unless you're a bad Thresh player. It'll teach you to be less carefree with your hooks, as that was honestly the most broken part of his kit imo. You could throw out hooks for free and even if you were shit, you might hit a lucky hook that you could go ham with.

The change means good players will still have the same utility, but can also maximise the damage he does because of Flay's higher base damage.

Good change imo.

(also the cd is 18 at rank one, down to ~15 with cdr masteries. It's lower than Blitz's hook, has a faster missile speed, cots less mana and has longer range.)

It's not just a knock back, if you're using it as just a knock back, you're using it wrong. You can knock someone in any direction you want, from whatever way you're facing. That's a HUGE amount of utility, and it synergizes incredibly well wit his ult, as it's a guaranteed broken wall.



Yeah pretty much this.

If you're a "good" Thresh player as you say, you honestly shouldn't be complaining. I'm not.

I'm not saying it's a bad nerf. I think he needed one so I'll live with this. His pull being worst than Blitz is debatable. It's not as quick but it has a longer range, his wind-up makes the direction of his Q ambiguous, and he can decide to engage you with a follow up Q or not. At this point, I fear Thresh over Blitz.

 

[PorcellainThrill]

Woo, went up from bronze to silver, abusing Gangplank so hard.
Keilhol the lot of them.

 

[Einbroch]

Woo, went up from bronze to silver, abusing Gangplank so hard.
Keilhol the lot of them.

GP that good?

 

[PorcellainThrill]

GP that good?

I went 13:1 with him going top mid or jungle, he just fits my style of afk farming hard.
Now this is important, can i move down to bronze again if I lose the next couple of matches?
Wanted to try a bit more out there builds.

 

[Dance Inferno]

I like going balls to the walls deep

I think you're confusing two different phrases here...

 

[Einbroch]

I went 13:1 with him going top mid or jungle, he just fits my style of afk farming hard.
Now this is important, can i move down to bronze again if I lose the next couple of matches?
Wanted to try a bit more out there builds.

Once you move up a league (bronze to silver, silver to gold, etc), you cannot drop back down, so experiment to your heart's content.

 

[garath]

I think I need to take a break from LoL for like a week or two. I'm playing like shit lately.

Sucks I see you even took a break from ranked for a bit too. I did that and it turned my fortunes. Broke out some champs I haven't played in ages and just played for fun. Back to a 70% win rate in the last 12 or so games.

Speaking of, finally got to play Vi again last night. She's still a great champ for me. Building her a little differently now after seeing xj9 do it and it's working pretty well for me.

Go brutalizer->elder lizard->BC or tanky

Max W first, E second. Runes flat AD quints, 3 attack speed marks, 6 armor pen marks. 21/9/0 masteries.

The attack speed boost coupled with the armor pen and the armor shred of her W is deceptively strong. The E doesn't do as much damage but the autos make up for it. Her clear is a little faster too. I'm rather fond of it. Straight E levelling with an elder lizard rush doesn't do the same damage after all the nerfs.

Only downside is she's a bit squishier earlier so can't be quite as aggressive. And I miss the Q cooldown reduction. That's the biggest hit to this build path imo.

 

[Ferga]

I'm going to try Lissandra support. Seems like a really big lane bully. That passive would be awesome for laning.

Hope she isn't too squishy for her skill set. Her health and armour scale better than Zyra by a little bit but then again, zyra is all range.



I think I might try the 30AP level 1 support build I use to do for Sona on Lissandra. That level 3 burst should be really fun at bot lane. 1.1second root with a 16% slow should be able to secure kills when junglers come. Plus the 1.5 second stun at level 6.

MMMmmm, can't wait

 

[erragal]

I'm going to try Lissandra support. Seems like a really big lane bully. That passive would be awesome for laning.

Hope she isn't too squishy for her skill set. Her health and armour scale better than Zyra by a little bit but then again, zyra is all range.



I think I might try the 30AP level 1 support build I use to do for Sona on Lissandra. That level 3 burst should be really fun at bot lane. 1.1second root with a 16% slow should be able to secure kills when junglers come. Plus the 1.5 second stun at level 6.

MMMmmm, can't wait

She's really exciting as a support, can't wait to learn all her nuance. Might make up for Karma rework falling so flat.

 

[Pancakes]

I stopped playing ranked because I dropped to 20ish points in Silver I and don't want to keep plummeting. I'm starting to feel the same way about normals, people don't want to take free objectives, or play the map, and are more likely to troll since it's just a normal. I understand that normals aren't supposed to be serious at all but it's a jarring experience going from a coordinated team that works together to a couple of chuckleheads chasing kills instead of killing a free baron.

 

[brian!]

Feeding the poro 10 poro-snax in murder bridge will make it explode:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=--W39b_VaLM#!

omg

 

[PhillipCostigan]

Lissandra could work pretty well as a real lane bully support. Mainly because her Q has such a low cool down, and it hits enemies behind the one it hits first. So you can throw her Q every three seconds at the minions in front of the ADC, watch them run away in pain, and when they're chunked enough just all in them.

Her range is pretty damn short though.

 

[bjaelke]

The wait time between champs is too long :/

I want Lissandra nooooooow...

Having to wait until next weekend sucks.

They still have update the lore of 80~ champions to tie them to Freljord.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

They still have update the lore of 80~ champions to tie them to Freljord.

Brand is going to be next I hear.

"Some say he's hot headed, but really he's just an ice guy!"

...I'm here all week.