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[Ghost is Bad]

its complicated because riot wants 3 styles of jungling to be viable but can't balance the jungle for shit around farming or counter jungling because they end up with what happened in season 2: solo/duo laners stealing jungle camps and the jungler getting jack shit and becoming a second support. it's already sort of happened with either off laners or duo laners taking camps for easy experience and gold.

 

[Lone_Prodigy]

First game: "can we duo bot"

Sona and Ashe vs. Blitz and Cait

Guess what happens.

Second game: "duo bot"

Sona and Trist vs. Morg and Ez

Guess what happens.

Yeah, I'm going support next time.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

sona into morg is fine. morg cant do anything to sona until 6 and just gets wrecked by sona's insane q poke.

 

[Mister Negative]

Yeah, there's such a fine line between "well-designed jungler" and "top laner that sucks at top lane" that unless a champ is well designed for the jungle, like nunu or eve or maybe shaco, they're going to get moved to top lane by players the second their kit gets meaningful buffs, like what happened with maokai.

Speaking of, I can't really think of many other champs that have kits that are super well designed for jungling and map control but that are bad for laning. Those three are all I could come up with.

Edit: oh now that trist has been brought up i feel like that change to her Q on the PBE has the potential to make her pretty popular. I always felt it was weird that her Q had such a long CD.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

the current tank junglers are all held back from top because they either have poor farming skills or wave clear or they have ridiculous mana costs. i wouldn't worry about things like map control because the top lane with TP is always going to be the one exerting global pressure all the way throughout the game. strong junglers have either a lot of cc, strong 1v2 or 2v2 damage or good neutral objective control or all 3 (aka lee sin)

 

[Mister Negative]

and the problem is that riot keeps coming out with these amazingly designed champions with absolutely loaded kits. You can't do anything for your old champs without making them stronger or reworking them entirely.

there has to be a point where the old champs just aren't played anymore, unless riot just tunes their numbers to keep up. It's going to get to the point where it's just "well why would i ever choose to play ryze or ashe or garen" and tbh its kind of already at that point.

 

[zkylon]

i kinda feel like the jungle roster also lacks champ-to-champ differentiation for it to be interesting. like as much as j4 and lee are kind of better and nerfed versions of the bruiser-assassin-jungler thing, zac and nautilus might as well be the same champion for me. i know it's a bit of an exaggeration but i think kit diversity is a much bigger issue that the "jungle styles" thing

like to compare support has poke/healers (sona/nami), tank initiators (leona), disengager, mages (annie/morg) and whatever supersupport thing thresh is.

and like jungle champions do have some variety, from the reksais and jarvans to the fiddles and the nunus (even if a lot of them aren't "viable") but there's like twice as many jungle champions as there are supports, so they end up overlapping a lot

and the problem is that riot keeps coming out with these amazingly designed champions with absolutely loaded kits. You can't do anything for your old champs without making them stronger or reworking them entirely.

there has to be a point where the old champs just aren't played anymore, unless riot just tunes their numbers to keep up. It's going to get to the point where it's just "well why would i ever choose to play ryze or ashe or garen" and tbh its kind of already at that point.

while true i feel like recent champions are tons more interesting than old champions so it's just a matter of adding complexity and nuance to old ones rather than straight buffing them (tho buffing them too if needed). a perfect example is sion which is probably the best champion release i feel riot has done in a long while

i think reksai is also a good mix of unique mechanics (tremor/tunnels) while also being fairly straightforward.

azir and bard are def a bit much, but i duno, i like that rito tries to do weird shit, even tho i lean more towards the less complicated era of lizzy and synchan

 

[Ghost is Bad]

Ryze is not a champ u can group with garen and ashe lol. Ryze randomly becomes a monster because his kit is so anti-outplay so whenever he gets strong, you feel it.

 

[Lone_Prodigy]

sona into morg is fine. morg cant do anything to sona until 6 and just gets wrecked by sona's insane q poke.

Sona kept calling Morg a broken champ and blamed our first pick for not banning her.

Also built Ardent Censor and didn't upgrade/swap trinkets.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

built Ardent Censor

nvm then.

 

[drawkcaB]

I feel like I always wanted to feel. Mother fucking' raid boss!!

I'm going to bed for two weeks.

i'm not super knowledgeable at this, but i guess the jungle is super hard to balance because you need to find a way for champions to be arguably more impact than all the other classes while having access to less gold and levels (because if u don't you get the maokai top thing).

I think what makes jungle hard is that satisfaction for the jungler largely comes at the expense of another player(s). If I'm in lane and I go even, trade a few kills, etc. I likely enjoyed my match. I enjoyed my match as a jungler by making sure someone else didn't.

But that might just be my playstyle, I dunno.

 

[Mister Negative]

while true i feel like recent champions are tons more interesting than old champions so it's just a matter of adding complexity and nuance to old ones rather than straight buffing them (tho buffing them too if needed). a perfect example is sion which is probably the best champion release i feel riot has done in a long while

i think reksai is also a good mix of unique mechanics (tremor/tunnels) while also being fairly straightforward.

azir and bard are def a bit much, but i duno, i like that rito tries to do weird shit, even tho i lean more towards the less complicated era of lizzy and synchan

yeah that's exactly what i'm saying. I wouldn't be mad if riot went and said "okay we're gonna stop doing anything else til we fix how basic some of our old shit is"

obviously you need some basic stuff, but what are you going to do to make those champs interesting and fun to play when the roster is full of just better versions of them.

 

[Blizzard]

More details I seem to be learning about Malzahar:

1. Even if someone flashes (or maybe it's dashes/blinks) right as you trigger ult, it will apparently still go off, resulting in an amusingly long ult beam.
2. Even if Olaf has his ult going to avoid CC, your beam will follow him around and do damage (not sure about this one, but seems reasonable).
3. Reading online, QSS removes both the CC and the damage parts of the ult.

Also, whenever Malzahar E ticks down and randomly jumps to the enemy laner, this is basically my reaction as they run away in annoyance.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

yeah that's exactly what i'm saying. I wouldn't be mad if riot went and said "okay we're gonna stop doing anything else til we fix how basic some of our old shit is"

obviously you need some basic stuff, but what are you going to do to make those champs interesting and fun to play when the roster is full of just better versions of them.

Make all their skills skillshots ofc.

 

[zkylon]

I think what makes jungle hard is that satisfaction for the jungler largely comes at the expense of another player(s). If I'm in lane and I go even, trade a few kills, etc. I likely enjoyed my match. I enjoyed my match as a jungler by making sure someone else didn't.

But that might just be my playstyle, I dunno.

i dunno, i don't think most people enjoy losing in lane either

also a thing i forgot to mention is that since a big portion of jungling is pve, there's a part of jungling that's simply up to numbers. like you're either a fast clearer or you're not, and if you're not you're gonna be weaker, or you're gonna be super strong in some other aspect which isn't really all that interesting since clear speed is not really a demonstration of skill

laning is almost a purely pvp affair, as csing is very closely related to fighting the other player. you might have a strong pusher like morgana but there's still last hitting under turret and managing mana and potions and whatnot.

such a complicated subject, no wonder rito takes forever :I

yeah that's exactly what i'm saying. I wouldn't be mad if riot went and said "okay we're gonna stop doing anything else til we fix how basic some of our old shit is"

obviously you need some basic stuff, but what are you going to do to make those champs interesting and fun to play when the roster is full of just better versions of them.

well i don't think that's too smart as it's not as simple as throwing people/money at things until they get fixed

look how long sion took, getting the champion theme and kit takes time and you can't really speed up testing. having too many voices isn't always ideal

then there's the obvious issue of new champions = money which is part of their business model and that's kind of fair.

also i don't think the idea is that every champion is equally "competitive". for instance, i don't think the idea is that teemo should ever be played at pro level. some champions like garen are meant to ease people into playing the game

also part of making the new champions so weird is so that they're really different from older champions and we no longer have that thing xin zhao = j4 = irelia = vi = aatrox thing (replace for more intelligent comparison but i think you get the point)

 

[bokn]

Nah qss only removes the cc, not the damage.

Damage us removed when they walk our of range

 

[Tizoc]

Nope. Nautilus is still a tank. If an item doesn't provide at least some defensive stats* then skip it. Mister Negative suggested IBG which is now useful on Naut. The excellent base damages he now has thanks to low CD E spam and the new jungle enchant means he can make better use of Abyssal Scepter and Liandry's Torment (although Liandry's would still be just ok, but now haunting guise is a genuinely attractive buy). Wit's End should still be his best offensive minded buy. Even though the AP ratio on E is reduced, AP is still better than before over time because of how often E will come out, so picking up an RoA is ok now too if you can get it early enough.

Again it was just a thought nothing to actually do, but I do like the idea of Gauntlet on him.
Some nice points you mention though.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

Actually that change to nauts e might actually turn him into a toplaner LOL

 

[Tizoc]

Actually that change to nauts e might actually turn him into a toplaner LOL

What stopped him from eing used on top anyways?

 

[Ghost is Bad]

Huge mana costs and high cooldowns.

 

[Tizoc]

Huge mana costs and high cooldowns.

Ah figured as much.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

I have lost every game with Sona on my team. This skin is the worst thing to happen to silver. She's so bad.

 

[Blizzard]

I have lost every game with Sona on my team. This skin is the worst thing to happen to silver. She's so bad.

A check of lolking says that although her popularity has significantly risen, her win rate has remained basically the same in silver and bronze solo queues that it has been for a month -- slightly over 50%.

You may have been unlucky.

*edit* Or, maybe lolking doesn't track stats accurately -- they're just the best stats I am aware of.

 

[Purple Cheeto]

Tonight's adventure in Bronze V, the Amumu on my team decently into the game exclaims, "OMG! MY BUILD!".

I check his items: 5 Warmogs and a Thornmail.

Spoiler

He went 22/11/25

 

[bokn]

Naut has already been a top laner

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Ok, won 3 of 4 tonight with the loss being unwinnable with our bot lane collectively going 2-18. It was a Sona/Vayne, which I can't think of anything worse in silver.

 

[bidguy]

looks like ill stay in silver 1
at least i get around 25 lp per win so it shouldnt take long to get into promos again

 

[Stone Ocean]

I have lost every game with Sona on my team. This skin is the worst thing to happen to silver. She's so bad.

She's not bad but she's not a champion you can pick blindly and then whine when Blitz starts fucking your butthole nonstop

 

[Wolf Akela]

First game: "can we duo bot"

Sona and Ashe vs. Blitz and Cait

Guess what happens.

Second game: "duo bot"

Sona and Trist vs. Morg and Ez

Guess what happens.

Yeah, I'm going support next time.

Assuming equal skill, Sona completely poops on Morgana. The latter is very weak to heavy poke or even the slightest amount of sustain. As a support Morgana main, my most hated enemy supports are Janna, Nami, Sona and Soraka. Morgana doesn't really have that much lane presence. If the enemy is smart, they will answer your binding with an equal amount of aggression and they can still win the trade. Morgana is really about picking off people and preventing others from getting picked off.

Sona vs Blitz can go either way.

 

[zkylon]

I have lost every game with Sona on my team. This skin is the worst thing to happen to silver. She's so bad.

snoa is not bad

your teammates are bad

 

[bidguy]

meh lost all 3 games won the next one after and got 27 lp

not bad 1 win and im in promos again

 

[Tizoc]

I have lost every game with Sona on my team. This skin is the worst thing to happen to silver. She's so bad.

If anything mate, its the people you play with that screw up. You can always do good in your lane but then the other lanes fuck up real bad that you can't carry or win. It happens.
As is why not just try and just play with friends? These past few days I've been playing with my co-workers and even if we were to lose 3 matches straight, we still have fun.

For me I be aggro(-ish) with Sona no matter what my ADC says, if the opposition is smart, they'll walk AWAY from Sona if they see her approaching, but you also gotta keep in mind the support's position and retreat if you suspect they're gonna hook or grab you.

One tip I can suggest as Sona is, with Q being your first learned ability, Right Click enemy adc, hover your mouse over your Q to see its range and once you see the enemy in range, press it and if you're lucky you might even tag them with an auto.

Vaynes are among my fav. to poke if only because if they're dumb, they'll always get tagged by my Q+Auto and then rage on chat on how broken Sona is :V

 

[Deleted member 77995]

I think part of the skill that is involved in playing top lane is csing well as a melee champ. Sometimes I can see my lane opponent doing the same awkward shuffle to get a last hit as well.

 

[Tizoc]

Look everyone, it is Piglet!
http://www.twitch.tv/piglet

So wait can we, or can't we stack the passives from both Sunfire and the new Jungle Item?
If it is like Sheen's upgraded forms, I don't think that's permitted right?

 

[Wolf Akela]

Spellblade stacks. I believe the Spellblade on the primary target will choose whichever is the strongest proc. Gauntlet's AoE always procs, but it doesn't do extra damage on the primary target.

 

[Tizoc]

Man I gotta get me fizz a Tanky AD champ is...interesting.
I mean it is likely to get changed by 5.6 if not 5.5, but hey enjoy it while it lasts :V

 

[Leezard]

Look everyone, it is Piglet!
http://www.twitch.tv/piglet

So wait can we, or can't we stack the passives from both Sunfire and the new Jungle Item?
If it is like Sheen's upgraded forms, I don't think that's permitted right?

they do not stack.

 

[Tizoc]

they do not stack.

Thanks, case in point

 

[Stone Ocean]

Sunfire Capes used to stack. Hilarity ensued

 

[Wolf Akela]

It's all fun and games until the 6-Sunfire permastealth Eve sticks to you.

 

[Tizoc]

Piglet pls, get Sightstone 1st item, I want to run and grab with Blitz as much as you do but come on mang.

 

[bokn]

I bought DJ Sona and went 4-3-46

Skin is OP

 

[zkylon]

Piglet pls, get Sightstone 1st item, I want to run and grab with Blitz as much as you do but come on mang.

i'm guessing he got boots 5 first item?

that's a perfectly fine support rush

 

[Sande]

I'll try QEW on Varus, see how I like it. I think W might still be better on some lanes. I was completely shitting on the enemy Taric in a match once. I didn't even realize at the time how hard Varus' W counters him. It's health percentage magic damage against a champ who benefits from armor and health. W overall sounds like a decent choice if you're expecting to face a lot of health / armor early on or if your lane matchup allows you to AA a lot. I've definitely had a lot of success and fun with QWE which is why I started maxing in that order.

 

[zkylon]

I'll try QEW on Varus, see how I like it. I think W might still be better on some lanes. I was completely shitting on the enemy Taric in a match once. I didn't even realize at the time how hard Varus' W counters him. It's health percentage magic damage against a champ who benefits from armor and health. W overall sounds like a decent choice if you're expecting to face a lot of health / armor early on or if your lane matchup allows you to AA a lot. I've definitely had a lot of success and fun with QWE which is why I started maxing in that order.

the thing about w is that % health damage naturally scales thru the game so even if you don't rank up w you're still getting more damage from your enemies buying health items

at the same time ranking e second reduces the cooldown a lot so you'll be getting more w procs off

 

[Sande]

the thing about w is that % health damage naturally scales thru the game so even if you don't rank up w you're still getting more damage from your enemies buying health items

at the same time ranking e second reduces the cooldown a lot so you'll be getting more w procs off

Just because W already scales doesn't mean making it scale way more is off the table.

I don't think the cd is always that beneficial since I'm not made of mana and can't spam my skills anyway. W on the other hand is always helping you, for free.

I think E is overall better to level thanks to the cd and slow but I don't think it's as clear cut as "always QEW, no matter what". I'll still probably stick to W in some match-ups. Especially Taric if I ever see him again. I was cutting through that guy like he was a lvl 1 Sona.

 

[Stone Ocean]

The scaling per rank on W is like 1% per point. You're basically paying for the extra on hit damage, unless you're doing one of those shitty Ap builds it's just not worth sacrificing 10 seconds and twice the slow on your E, a rank 5 will not do that much more damage than rank 1, thats how one point wonders work

 

[Terbinator]

May as well go the while hog and build Runaans so you can stack the W on more people faster.

 

[Tizoc]

May as well go the while hog and build Runaans so you can stack the W on more people faster.

Brr I remember a Varus I was going Supp Sona with whose first item was Hurricane then Bloodthirster. We still won that game but...brrr...

 

[Terbinator]

It's a pretty troll item to pick-up down the line but yeah, it should always be raw AD first with Varus due to his Q scaling.