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Learning Japanese |OT| ..honor and shame are huge parts of it. Let's!

Ok, gaf I'm studying for JLPT N4 and in the last lesson we learnt about ーさせる
After every lesson my sensei gives me as homework to write some sentences in japanese having as context whatever we learnt in the latest lesson.
So I made this sentence and I want you to correct me if I have any errors.Also even though it may me grammatically ok, can a japanese person understand clearly what i want to say?

My sentence: 雪子先生の試験は辛いですが、いろいろに習ってさせます。

What I want to say is: Teacher Yukiko's exams are painful but it makes you learn a lot
 
My sentence: 雪子先生の試験は辛いですが、いろいろに習ってさせます。

What I want to say is: Teacher Yukiko's exams are painful but it makes you learn a lot

You can't attach させる to て form like that. It's its own conjugation for non-する verbs. In this case it would be 習わせる. I'm not really sure, but this still strikes me as really strange with that correction. At least with this verb, I think it would have more of the meaning of forcing someone to learn some particular thing (somewhat against their will), like この会社には海外の出張が結構あるので、社員は英語を習わせます。 Because this company has frequent business trips abroad, employees are made to learn English.
 

Kevtones

Member
Hi Everyone... American meeting his Japanese GF's parents this Wednesday. They don't speak a lot of English and I don't speak much Japenese... any advice? Tips?

Thank you 🙏
 
Hi Everyone... American meeting his Japanese GF's parents this Wednesday. They don't speak a lot of English and I don't speak much Japenese... any advice? Tips?

Thank you 🙏

Try to keep things simple. Don't bite off more than you can chew and put your foot in your mouth. What do you mean by "not much Japanese"?
 

Aizo

Banned
Hi Everyone... American meeting his Japanese GF's parents this Wednesday. They don't speak a lot of English and I don't speak much Japenese... any advice? Tips?

Thank you 🙏
So you live in Japan then, I'm assuming? If you understand cultural norms from living in Japan, you should be fine. Be polite. I'm just giving you general advice, because I don't really date J girls.
 

Beckx

Member
So it turns out that some Japanese publishers are offering their Japanese language ebooks on Amazon.com. I bought Otsuichi's Car of the Dead kindle single and it turns out that after downloading it, I now have Shogakukan's J-E dictionary on my kindle. It's not as great as all of the dictionaries you get with a Japanese kindle but it's still pretty neat.

The funny thing is that the first sentence is "蝿は飛んでいる" and the dictionary doesn't have 蝿.

Anyway, it's nice because of the easy look up, no need to use a separate device to look up words.
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
So it turns out that some Japanese publishers are offering their Japanese language ebooks on Amazon.com. I bought Otsuichi's Car of the Dead kindle single and it turns out that after downloading it, I now have Shogakukan's J-E dictionary on my kindle. It's not as great as all of the dictionaries you get with a Japanese kindle but it's still pretty neat.

The funny thing is that the first sentence is "蝿は飛んでいる" and the dictionary doesn't have 蝿.

Anyway, it's nice because of the easy look up, no need to use a separate device to look up words.

You don't need to buy a Japanese ebook to get the dictionary. Granted, it's kinda hard to find (I can't remember how to find it off the top of my head), but the option to download it as a standalone dictionary for free, as well the Daijisen, is there. There's also an open-source dictionary you can get via your browser and then import to your Kindle. In my experience it's actually pretty good: there's little context given to the translations, which sucks, but it contains many words and secondary meanings you wouldn't find in the Shogakukan. On the flipside, the conciseness of it means you can see most of the translations in the snippet without having to scroll down. Can save you some time.
 

Beckx

Member
You don't need to buy a Japanese ebook to get the dictionary. Granted, it's kinda hard to find (I can't remember how to find it off the top of my head), but the option to download it as a standalone dictionary for free, as well the Daijisen, is there. There's also an open-source dictionary you can get via your browser and then import to your Kindle. In my experience it's actually pretty good: there's little context given to the translations, which sucks, but it contains many words and secondary meanings you wouldn't find in the Shogakukan. On the flipside, the conciseness of it means you can see most of the translations in the snippet without having to scroll down. Can save you some time.

i'll search for those and how to add them. smaller snippets are good because if i really want a lot of context i'll jump over to kenkyuusha on my phone anyway.
 

213372bu

Banned
From what I'm reading in my books (Genki+some supp books I got) ではありません is the most formal way to write a "negation sentence" (やまださんは学生ではありません) and じゃないです is the most colloquial way to write it (with what I currently know).

You can also mix it so it can go じゃありません or ではないです since じゃ is a contraction of では and ありません/ないです mark the same "not" sentence.

But if I were to practically go around in Japan, which would I use more often? My books contradict which is the most common, is it safer to just go around using the most formal way possible of speaking sentences? Or is that too stiff?
 
From what I'm reading in my books (Genki+some supp books I got) ではありません is the most formal way to write a "negation sentence" (やまださんは学生ではありません) and じゃないです is the most colloquial way to write it (with what I currently know).

You can also mix it so it can go じゃありません or ではないです since じゃ is a contraction of では and ありません/ないです mark the same "not" sentence.

But if I were to practically go around in Japan, which would I use more often? My books contradict which is the most common, is it safer to just go around using the most formal way possible of speaking sentences? Or is that too stiff?

じゃないです is the most common, everyday way to talk. じゃありません sounds a little cold by comparison, and ではありません sounds businesslike and clinical. I don't think I've ever heard ではないです, it's just a really awkward mixture of formality.

Do Japanese people refer to clear soft drinks (like Sprite) as "cider"?

Same question about bell peppers being "paprika"
I think cider is generally "crisp carbonated beverage," I've seen non-clear ciders before.

パプリカ is for red or yellow peppers. Green peppers are always ピーマン as far as I've seen. I've seen larger green bell peppers referred to as ビッグピーマン or 大ピーマン.
 
I think cider is generally "crisp carbonated beverage," I've seen non-clear ciders before.

パプリカ is for red or yellow peppers. Green peppers are always ピーマン as far as I've seen. I've seen larger green bell peppers referred to as ビッグピーマン or 大ピーマン.
Basically the same as Korean, as I suspected. Green peppers are 피망 and the other colors are 파프리카. Everybody thinks paprika is the correct English word for the vegetable.
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
パプリカ is for red or yellow peppers. Green peppers are always ピーマン as far as I've seen. I've seen larger green bell peppers referred to as ビッグピーマン or 大ピーマン.

Basically the same as Korean, as I suspected. Green peppers are 피망 and the other colors are 파프리카. Everybody thinks paprika is the correct English word for the vegetable.

Just for added fuckery, if anyone reading this is French, "piment" in French, which is pronounced like ピーマン in Japanese, doesn't mean "bell pepper", but "spicy pepper" (e.g. chili pepper, Cayenne pepper, ghost pepper...)... But "spicy pepper" is "唐辛子" in Japanese. tl;dr: "piment" is not "ピーマン". Eh.
 
Can anyone recommend some kind of online class that I can work on during downtime at work? I find myself with a lot of time to just sit and twiddle my thumbs, and I'd like to do something a little more productive than that.
 
The duo lingo Japanese app is out :) its buggy as hell ATM but I think it's got a lot of potential as a fun aid. I've been supplementing my Italian study with it for a while now. Would recommend.
 

Gacha-pin

Member
Convert your name to Kanji(Chinese characters)!!
https://kanji.world/kanjiname/

gachapin (●´ϖ`●)
m5OSPc7.png
 

Sage00

Once And Future Member
パプリカ is for red or yellow peppers. Green peppers are always ピーマン as far as I've seen. I've seen larger green bell peppers referred to as ビッグピーマン or 大ピーマン.
My girlfriend is convinced there is a 「レッドピーマン」that is a different vegetable from 「パプリカ」and that Chinese restaurants often use it. No idea what she's talking about though.

Edit: here's an article http://daily-info.xyz/archives/1704.html
 

Jintor

Member
my friend named himself kaji during his college uni anime club days and was mildly disappointed that everyone he met in japan for the first few months kept interpreting it as housework
 
I just learned the passive voice and oh boy was there a surprise waiting for me.

"夫に死なれた女性は未亡人と呼ばれます"


Although English is not my native language, I'm sure that most western languages don't have a passive voice for the verb "to die".

So can anyone please explain to me the context of this in Japanese?

In which cases do we use it?

The sad thing is that when I ask my sensei about this he just says

"Well it's just how it is, there is no equivalent in your language" :/
 

KtSlime

Member
I just learned the passive voice and oh boy was there a surprise waiting for me.

"夫に死なれた女性は未亡人と呼ばれます"


Although English is not my native language, I'm sure that most western languages don't have a passive voice for the verb "to die".

So can anyone please explain to me the context of this in Japanese?

In which cases do we use it?

The sad thing is that when I ask my sensei about this he just says

"Well it's just how it is, there is no equivalent in your language" :/

This is known as 迷惑の受身, it does not exactly exist in English, and is to the best of my knowledge pretty rare in languages, but Japanese makes great use of it. The death of her husband has inconvenienced her. The passive is being used to show this inconvenience.

The sentence could be translated something like this into casual English "A woman whose husband died on her is called a widow". The "on" in this sentence shows that it has inconvenienced the woman.
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
This is known as 迷惑の受身, it does not exactly exist in English, and is to the best of my knowledge pretty rare in languages, but Japanese makes great use of it. The death of her husband has inconvenienced her. The passive is being used to show this inconvenience.

The sentence could be translated something like this into casual English "A woman whose husband died on her is called a widow". The "on" in this sentence shows that it has inconvenienced the woman.

To add another example of this use of passive, if you were telling a friend that someone stole your wallet, you would say

「私は財布をとられた。」

Notice I didn't type 財布が, which, if I translated it literally, would mean "Me, my wallet was stolen", but 財布を. If you were not familiar with this use of passive, you would understandably think the grammar is wrong there: you would think you either have to say 財布がとられた ("My wallet was stolen") or 財布をとった ("I stole a/the wallet").

But that's where 財布をとられた comes in. This particular phrase is not only correct in this case, but the only natural way you could express the idea that your wallet was stolen. Because it sucks that your wallet was stolen, and this phrase lets you express the idea that it affects you negatively and you hate that it happened; after all, who doesn't hate it when their wallet gets stolen?

If, instead, you simply said 財布がとられた, it would be too matter-of-fact, too objective, too detached. As if you said "My wallet was stolen, but I have no feelings about it one way or the other, just stating the facts. It's a thing that happened."

So yeah, this situation, as well as expressing that someone you loved died, are two typical cases where 迷惑の受け身 (didn't know it was called that by the way, thanks) is not only appropriate, but pretty much required. The closest English equivalent I can think of, though it's obviously not quite the same, is "(s)he died on me", as in "she died and now I'm alone and sad/angry".

I'm not sure many languages have this kind of grammatical structure, although my mother tongue, French, does have something similar. If you speak French, it's essentially the same thing as "Mon porte-feuilles a été volé" (or "On a volé mon porte-feuilles") which is an objective statement, vs. "Je me suis fait voler mon porte-feuilles" which highlights the fact that the stealing affected you.

What's ee-yo?
Is that slang for no?
So hai-yo is yes in slang

Not sure what you're asking, but to elaborate on いいよ, it's the neutral (i.e. non-polite) form of いいですよ, which means "it's good", "it's okay", "you're welcome".

ええ (ee) is either a softer way of saying はい (yes), or, as KtSlime said, an alternate pronunciation of いい which is typical of some regional accents like the Kansai dialects (with an "s", because there are many). I don't think you would ever say ええよ though. It sounds like a mish-mash of regional and non-regional Japanese. I'm not a dialect expert, but I'd say you would instead say ええや, not よ.

Also, "hai yo" doesn't exist, period. Not even as slang. If someone told you it does, they're full of shit :p. If you're convinced you've heard it said by a native speaker, you're either misremembering, or the person/character wasn't actually saying "hai yo", or they're some kind of weird anime character with their own language idiosyncracy or something. You can only ever say はい on its own, or followed by a statement, such as はい、そうです。"Hai yo" doesn't work because "yo" isn't a statement or even a meaningful word in itself. It's just a sentence-ending particle.

いいよ only works because いい is not "yes" or "no"; it's an adjective. Forget any relation between that word and those words. Completely different grammatical natures, functions and meanings.
 

Beckx

Member
this discussion of passive and that sentence has been enormously helpful for my own understanding. gave my a chance to dive into my new Handbook of Japanese Grammar Patterns, too. (the basic, regimented discussion of the passive in genki didn't get me to the point i could easily understand this sentence.)

can someone shed light on the use of と here, though? it doesn't exactly fit any of the conditional examples that I know (e.g., Nだと...X). or maybe that's what it is but you don't need だ because of the sentence structure?
 

Beckx

Member
English has a passive voice.

right, but the point was twofold: that english does not have a passive construction for a verb like "die", but more than that, this is a use of passive forms that English is not generally familiar with: the concept of "expressing the standpoint of a person indirectly bothered by a thing that has happened to cause their situation"

AFAIK in English passive voice only indicates that the subject is not the actor (e.g. "the ball was caught") and there is not a comparable voice to the Japanese use of a stated or unstated agent taking an action that troubled the subject. (English might say "the ball was caught and that troubled me" but you need those words.)
 

Kansoku

Member
can someone shed light on the use of と here, though? it doesn't exactly fit any of the conditional examples that I know (e.g., Nだと...X). or maybe that's what it is but you don't need だ because of the sentence structure?

I would guess it's the と in と言う but with 呼ぶ instead?

"夫に死なれた女性は未亡人と呼ばれます"

The に in "夫に死なれた女性" really threw me off for a second there. I don't remember why に is used with passive at all (or anything about passive tbh).
 

Beckx

Member
I would guess it's the と in と言う but with 呼ぶ instead?

ooh, good call. I wonder if that's it?

edit: you got it, Kenkyuusha's definition of 呼ぶ includes "4: call; name; term" with the example 先生と呼ぶ.



The に in "夫に死なれた女性" really threw me off for a second there. I don't remember why に is used with passive at all (or anything about passive tbh).

に is the particle for the "agent" causing the "problem" in the passive construction. Genki calls the construct "victim は villain に verb". other forms of the passive can use によって and から per the Grammar Handbook (such as when you are merely showing the subject was acted upon, like english - "地震後、その教会は地域の住民によって再建された" (after the earthquake, the church was rebuilt by local residents)), but not this "problem" construct.

に makes sense to me b/c the action is done "in the direction" of the person who was affected by it.
 

geetec

Neo Member
Has anyone here come across a dude named Ken Cannon?
He's offering to teach Japanese through anime. Is
that even viable?

Only $27 special offer ends tonight midnight! :O

(A little about myself: I'm already using RTK book but maybe this might be an alternative learning method? To help on the speaking side of things? Idk. I'm a novice. Forgive me senpai.)
 

Hypron

Member
Has anyone here come across a dude named Ken Cannon?
He's offering to teach Japanese through anime. Is
that even viable?

Only $27 special offer ends tonight midnight! :O

(A little about myself: I'm already using RTK book but maybe this might be an alternative learning method? To help on the speaking side of things? Idk. I'm a novice. Forgive me senpai.)

There's a thread on Reddit right now that seems to say it's a scam. I wouldn't risk it.
 

RangerBAD

Member
Did you even read the previous posts?

Yeah, but I wasn't really replying to your post. I should have quoted. From what I know, talking about actions of others is passive and it can be used that way in Japanese. I guess I'm speaking too generally because it was really about "to die". Passive confused me (maybe it still does), so I just decided to go with the flow and just read stuff to get examples.
 

Beckx

Member
From what I know, talking about actions of others is passive and it can be used that way in Japanese.

no, passive voice in english isn't about "who" you are talking about, but instead about who is taking the action - the subject of the sentence or someone else. For example "Bob caught the ball and threw it to me" is active, even though it's about Bob, who is not me (the actions of others). But "The ball was caught by me and thrown to Bob" is passive because the subject (the ball) is not taking the actions (caught, thrown) - I am taking those actions. It's also a good example of why people suggest trying to avoid passive voice because that sentence is god-awful. :)

Japanese has multiple instances of when to use られる (referred to in textbooks as "passive voice", or, if in reference to completely different usage, "potential"). One of those can be when you have a subject acted upon by another (see the church example above), another can be the one we're discussing here that does not have an English analogue ("expressing the standpoint of a person indirectly bothered by a thing that has happened to cause their situation")

I have had a lot of trouble with the passive and part of that is in part caused by confusion with english. I feel like I'm on a lot more solid ground today thanks to this discussion. Can we do causative tomorrow?
 

RangerBAD

Member
no, passive voice in english isn't about "who" you are talking about, but instead about who is taking the action - the subject of the sentence or someone else. For example "Bob caught the ball and threw it to me" is active, even though it's about Bob, who is not me (the actions of others). But "The ball was caught by me and thrown to Bob" is passive because the subject (the ball) is not taking the actions (caught, thrown) - I am taking those actions. It's also a good example of why people suggest trying to avoid passive voice because that sentence is god-awful. :)

Japanese has multiple instances of when to use られる (referred to in textbooks as "passive voice", or, if in reference to completely different usage, "potential"). One of those can be when you have a subject acted upon by another (see the church example above), another can be the one we're discussing here that does not have an English analogue ("expressing the standpoint of a person indirectly bothered by a thing that has happened to cause their situation")

I have had a lot of trouble with the passive and part of that is in part caused by confusion with english. I feel like I'm on a lot more solid ground today thanks to this discussion. Can we do causative tomorrow?

It's probably my grasp on English grammar that's lacking then.
 
Thanks for your insightful posts everyone, that really helped me understand the differences.
Btw sorry that I will digress but does anyone know the website lang8?You can write sentences in the language that you're learning and native speakers can then correct your sentence and explain what was wrong.
A japanese friend of mine recommended it for me, but the thing is that for know registrations are closed :/.
Does anyone know another way to register? I also use HelloTalk on mobile but I can't find many people there.
 

Porcile

Member
I use Lang-8. For some reason they suspended making any new accounts without giving any reasons. My guess is that they were either having a problem with spam accounts or there's basically not a sustainable amount of paying and active users, so they're winding it down with the intention to shut it down sometime in the future.
 

Beckx

Member
Does everyone know about Prosody Tutor Suzuki-kun?

http://www.gavo.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ojad/eng/phrasing/index

you put a Japanese word (or words) into the box, then hit analyze, and it spits out a pitch accent map, and can generate an audio file.

Tofugu put up an article from Dogen (the guy that does the pitch accent vids on Patreon and advanced japanese comedy vids on YouTube) and this was one of his suggested tools.
 

Genki

Member
Does everyone know about Prosody Tutor Suzuki-kun?

http://www.gavo.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ojad/eng/phrasing/index

you put a Japanese word (or words) into the box, then hit analyze, and it spits out a pitch accent map, and can generate an audio file.

Tofugu put up an article from Dogen (the guy that does the pitch accent vids on Patreon and advanced japanese comedy vids on YouTube) and this was one of his suggested tools.

Had it recommended to me by a Japanese professor a while back. It's been useful.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Any recommended apps on iOS for learning Kanji specifically? My daughter is 12 and we're starting her off on her Japanese GCSE practice. My son sailed through as they're both half-Japanese but my daughter doesn't have the same level of proficiency and particularly with Kanji - and the exam has a reading and writing section.
 
Any recommended apps on iOS for learning Kanji specifically? My daughter is 12 and we're starting her off on her Japanese GCSE practice. My son sailed through as they're both half-Japanese but my daughter doesn't have the same level of proficiency and particularly with Kanji - and the exam has a reading and writing section.

I use StickyStudy in my iPhone and it helped me a lot memorize the kanji and organize them in way that I can practice them easily when I want to.
There is a free version that you can search and find any kanji you like but if you buy the app you can also practice them on the phone by using the touch-screen and drawing it with the correct stroke order.Keep in mind thought that it's a little bit expensive(it costs 10$/euros) if you consider buying it, but for me it was totally worth it.
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
Speaking of mobile OSes:
- Does iOS include the Super Daijirin dictionary (the one with pitch accents for all entries) like MacOS?
- Are there any such dictionaries for Android (either built-in, or downloadable, even if it costs money)
- Overall, which OS is better for Japanese learning apps between iOS and Android?
 
One thing about Android is that the Anki app is free, whereas it's like $25 on iOS.

Anki is a very flexible and powerful spaced repetition flashcard system
 
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