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[n64coder]

Members of the rock band Led Zeppelin have appeared in court to deny borrowing from another song for their 1971 classic Stairway To Heaven.

Guitarist Jimmy Page and singer Robert Plant are expected to give evidence at the civil case in Los Angeles.
They are accused of lifting the song's opening notes from Taurus, a 1967 track by the band Spirit.
Page, 72, and Plant, 67, are being sued by a trust acting for a founding member of Spirit who died in 1997.

Smartly dressed in sober suits and ties, two of rock's biggest stars arrived early in Courtroom 850 to defend themselves against accusations of plagiarism.

As the room filled with the familiar strains of Stairway to Heaven, Jimmy Page leaned back and closed his eyes, his head nodding gently as he listened to his own performance and to the vocals of his bandmate Robert Plant, seated beside him at the front of the court.

With their hair pulled back in ponytails the two men looked relaxed and attentive, at one point pulling on their spectacles as they leaned towards each other to discuss a concert bill which had been produced in evidence.

The trial is expect to last 4-5 days.

Personally comparing Taurus to Stairway, I don't really hear the similarities. I can understand how Randy California's estate could make the claim because Led Zeppelin opened for Taurus in their first US show. Led Zeppelin also covered the Spirit's song Fresh Garbage in some of their early concerts. Lastly, Jimmy Page had the Spirit album in his personal collection.



Here are some artist drawings of Plant/Page in court

 

[Imp the Dimp]

I can kinda see where they're coming from to be honest. There is some similarity for sure.

 

[drspeedy]

Jimmy has become the white wizard.

The cycle is complete.

#teamzep

 

[MrS]

Sounds like they lifted it so they should pay up accordingly. Still love 'em though.

 

[Vanillalite]

Extremely interested in this.

The idea that they lifted it has been floated around for fucking FOREVER.

Now I'm interested in what a judge really has to say about it all.

 

[Ray Wonder]

I can kinda see where they're coming from to be honest. There is some similarity for sure.

It's not farfetched. Spirit was big enough to have Led Zeppelin hear it, and it was only 4 years later too.

 

[StudioTan]

I'm more surprised they haven't been sued for Dazed and Confused which is MUCH more egregious than the similarities between Stairway to Heaven and Taurus.

EDIT: In case people hadn't heard this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTsvs-pAGDc

 

[Neffarias_Bredd]

At what point can you be sued from lifting the notes from another song vs being influenced by it? Like, does it have to be note for note?

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

I'm more surprised they haven't been sued for Dazed and Confused which is MUCH more egregious than the similarities between Stairway to Heaven and Taurus.

They have, though.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/jun/30/led-zeppelin-sued-dazed-and-confused

 

[Dishwalla]

I'm more surprised they haven't been sued for Dazed and Confused which is MUCH more egregious than the similarities between Stairway to Heaven and Taurus.

EDIT: In case people hadn't heard this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTsvs-pAGDc

There was a suit about it some years back, think they now have to credit Jake Holmes as amongst the songwriters.

 

[Wensih]

There was a really great NPR segment discussing copying works a few months ago. It was pretty interesting and extremely wide spread in all fields. It's a big part of humans creative process, taking a template and remixing it to create new content.

 

[lord]

Other than the first guitar sounds on Taurus I don't see much in common other than maybe an influence. It's not like they were the only people making hobbit folk at the time. Dazed and confused is another story though.

 

[StudioTan]

They have, though.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/jun/30/led-zeppelin-sued-dazed-and-confused

There was a suit about it some years back, think they now have to credit Jake Holmes as amongst the songwriters.

Ah, I stand corrected then. I remember reading about Page denying he'd ripped it off but anybody can tell it's basically the same song, they even used the same lyric LOL

 

[Truant]

Could be cryptomnesia.

Cryptomnesia occurs when a forgotten memory returns without it being recognized as such by the subject, who believes it is something new and original. It is a memory bias whereby a person may falsely recall generating a thought, an idea, a song, or a joke,[1] not deliberately engaging in plagiarism but rather experiencing a memory as if it were a new inspiration.

 

[Melon Husk]

Sued by a trust acting for a founding member of Spirit who died in 1997? What a farce. If this was about fair compensation this lawsuit should have happened 40 years ago.

Yes the intro is clearly taken from Taurus, but they're two completely different songs. One is a two-and-a-half minute somber instrumental track, the other is a 8-minute song that bears no resemblance to the former after 5 minutes. I understand why they are denying it though.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

I'm not gonna lie. I love Stairway and I want to believe it's legit, but it's kinda hard to. They've got a convincing case against it.

 

[Dynamite Shikoku]

led zeppelin ripped off heaps of shit, didnt they?

 

[Branduil]

There was a really great NPR segment discussing copying works a few months ago. It was pretty interesting and extremely wide spread in all fields. It's a big part of humans creative process, taking a template and remixing it to create new content.

I mean, of course it is. People don't just invent art out of their aether, it's always influenced by what came before.

Outside of obvious, direct stealing, the question of what constitutes copyright infringement is essentially a semantic game. I think it's pretty absurd in this case- you can't steal an 8-minute song out of a 2-minute one. There are some clear similarities, and there was almost certainly influence, but they're not even close to being the same song.

 

[Melon Husk]

Everything is a remix.

I'm not gonna lie. I love Stairway and I want to believe it's legit, but it's kinda hard to. They've got a convincing case against it.

In his opening statement, the plaintiff's lawyer, Francis Malofiy, said the case could be summed up in six words, "give credit where credit is due".

Guilty.

Page and Plant were both "incredible performers, incredible musicians but they covered other people's music and tried to make it their own," he alleged.

Guilty.

Oh what's that? You're suing on behalf of a dead person?
If he never heard about Stairway to Heaven before his death in 1997 I could see your point. If it was his decision not to sue, what is the justification for this lawsuit's existence?

The plaintiff is reportedly seeking royalties and other compensation of around $40m (£28m).

According to Bloomberg Businessweek, Stairway To Heaven had earned $562m (£334m) as of 2008.

Ah.

 

[scogoth]

These cases always seem stupid to me. So led Zeppelin was inspired by Taurus and gets sued. Every DJ and parody artist directly uses songs from other artists and are fine.

 

[Retne]

Could be cryptomnesia.

This happens a lot when I try to write music. I'll finally get something that's been bouncing around in my brain written down only for me to realize after coming back to it that I just stole a hook from some song I haven't listened to in a while.

That could have happened in this case but I doubt they wouldn't have realized where it came from. Then again I think stairway is different enough from taurus that it really shouldn't stick in court. The beginning lick and the tempo seems like the only things they lifted from it and I really don't feel that a small guitar lick should be locked up like that. Doing so only leads to music being even stupider than it already is when it comes to creating it. If you can't have a small part of a riff be similar to some other riff then you're going to end up with a hand full of people owning the rights to a majority of the sounds a guitar can make.

So even if there are extenuating circumstances in this case I hope it doesn't stick because it would be a cultural setback in the same way disney has eaten all of the classic public works.

These cases always seem stupid to me. So led Zeppelin was inspired by Taurus and gets sued. Every DJ and parody artist directly uses songs from other artists and are fine.

DJs have to clear their samples. If they don't and are profiting off of the music then they are easy targets for lawsuits.

 

[CloudWolf]

These cases always seem stupid to me. So led Zeppelin was inspired by Taurus and gets sued. Every DJ and parody artist directly uses songs from other artists and are fine.

The difference is that they usually pay for usage of the samples. Or, in case of Girl Talk, offer the song that uses the uncleared sample for free.

 

[Schmitty]

I really don't hear the resemblance

 

[HStallion]

I kind of wish they brought a mudshark with them...

 

[Fallout-NL]

Listening to this it's obvious they must have been at least been inspired by it. Straight up 'lifted' though? I don't think so. Fine line between copyright infringement and finding inspiration somewhere though...

 

[Marvie_3]

led zeppelin ripped off heaps of shit, didnt they?

Yep

 

[Calabi]

I guess we can kiss goodbye to creativity if this wins.

 

[Mango Positive]

I once accidentally wrote "Wave of Mutilation" by the Pixies. Not just any version, but the slower surf version that I heard in the movie Pump up the Volume, with Christian Slater. I'd seen the movie when I was 14. I wrote "Melloncauliflour" when I was 16. When I was 18, I watched Pump up the Volume again and heard the song (wasn't a Pixies fan at the time). It was pretty strange. A 2 minute theme, heard once, translated into "original music" 2 years later. It was only the chorus from my song based on the intro to the Pixies song and I could probably get away with claiming it as an original, except that we deliberately ripped off Window Pane by the Pumpkins for the ending.

 

[Nocebo]

These cases always seem stupid to me. So led Zeppelin was inspired by Taurus and gets sued. Every DJ and parody artist directly uses songs from other artists and are fine.

Do you really think other artists can do this for free and be fine?

 

[Diablos]

From what I recall it definitely sounds like they lifted it from Taurus.

 

[DodgerSan]

I was always amazed at the similarity between "The Idol" by W.A.S.P (starting at 4:25) and the classic solo in "Comfortably Numb" by Floyd, but my friends can't hear that either.

 

[SD-Ness]

The intro to Stairway was obviously inspired by Taurus. It's slightly different enough to argue against plagiarism. Nonetheless, even if it was lifted, the rest of Stairway--including Page's solo and Plant's vocals--are really what make the song so special. So it's kind of a silly suit in my opinion.

However, the Jake Holmes version of Dazed and Confused is a different matter. That's plagiarism. LZ's version should've been considered a cover/reworking/remix.

When it comes to plagiarism, I'm pretty conflicted. I like to think it comes down to a few factors: creativity and commerciality.

As a creative person (I write fiction), I pursue my projects because I enjoy doing them. At a certain level, though, you realize that your own creativity is fueled by the work of others. Directly copying someone is shitty. But I don't think it's so bad to work from examples that inspire you to create your own.

The real problem comes into the foreground when things are sold for money. Then it becomes a product vs a purely creative project.

Bottom line: most of the artistic "masters" have plagiarized in the way that we would define the term today. But the trick is to turn that plagiarism into something unique in itself. And that's hard to do.

<insert TS Eliot quote about poets stealing>

 

[nortonff]

Page took a few notes and wrote an epic rock song.
Similarities? Yes. Plagiarism? I don't think so.

 

[Ray Wonder]

I guess we can kiss goodbye to creativity if this wins.

I think the Blurred Lines one was worse. That, to me, didn't seem like it was intentionally ripped off.

 

[Lebron]

Wouldn't be LZ without some lifting from others without giving credit. How many times have they been sued over stuff like this?

 

[ricardo_sousa11]

Do courts still have an artist to draw on the cases ? Why is that ? Why dont they just take pictures/film ?

 

[Ray Wonder]

Do courts still have an artist to draw on the cases ? Why is that ? Why dont they just take pictures/film ?

They're not allowed to have cameras in some cases and this is the loophole.

 

[CornDogg]

Play the other song backwards. Does Satan's toolshed make an appearance? If so, it's irrefutable.

 

[mnannola]

I'm sorry but this is just ridiculous. If this was an issue, it should have been brought up 30-40 years ago. Coming after them now just seems petty.

This is not to say that Zeppelin didn't steal some riffs, evidence seems to support they did steal some riffs over the years. It's 2016 though, these dudes are in their 70's and probably don't have much longer to live. Why bring it up now?

 

[Ray Wonder]

I'm sorry but this is just ridiculous. If this was an issue, it should have been brought up 30-40 years ago. Coming after them now just seems petty.

This is not to say that Zeppelin didn't steal some riffs, evidence seems to support they did steal some riffs over the years. It's 2016 though, these dudes are in their 70's and probably don't have much longer to live. Why bring it up now?

Seems petty not to give them credit if they did steal the riff too though. Spirit weren't all that popular, and maybe they're thinking they'll cash out on it. Their most popular song was "I got a line on you", and that's not some smash hit #1 record.

 

[ricardo_sousa11]

They're not allowed to have cameras in some cases and this is the loophole.

Wth...why not ?

 

[nortonff]

Wouldn't be LZ without some lifting from others without giving credit. How many times have they been sued over stuff like this?

A lot of big bands/artists with big discographies suffer from this kind of allegations.

 

[kruis]

I'm sorry but this is just ridiculous. If this was an issue, it should have been brought up 30-40 years ago. Coming after them now just seems petty.

This is not to say that Zeppelin didn't steal some riffs, evidence seems to support they did steal some riffs over the years. It's 2016 though, these dudes are in their 70's and probably don't have much longer to live. Why bring it up now?

Money.

 

[Ray Wonder]

Wth...why not ?

I'm pretty sure it's just because some courts don't like cameras in the courtroom. lol

 

[Rock And Roll]

Zepplin stole a bunch of shit and never gave credit. If this were the only case against them I'd dismiss it, but Page has had a long history of "borrowing" other people's ideas and passing them off for his own.

 

[ricardo_sousa11]

I'm pretty sure it's just because some courts don't like cameras in the courtroom. lol

haha pretty good reason.

I actually had never thought of this beore, makes absolutely no sense, but well..

 

[Mineshaft_Gap]

There was a time when the band straight up stole credit for the blues songs they covered. They have a ton of songs written by black bluesmen whom they gave zero credit until forced by the courts. I don't put anything above these guys - they are immensely talented thieves.

Unlike The Who who are the best band ever.

 

[Ricker]

It does sound like it at the start but the song is kinda split in 3 and the last 2 sections are nothing like it...so they should go with inspired maybe or something...? and how can anyone sue such a glorious guitar solo I still have chills at that part when it starts even after hearing the song a million times

 

[Megalosaro]

I read an article that this might be ruled a mistrial after one day. Apparently the plantiff submitted evidence illegally. They played a video tape that wasn't on the evidence list.

Someone hasn't played phoenix wright. Seems like a rookie mistake

 

[Chozoman]

Everything is a Remix