Legend of Zelda Wii U Gameplay Demo
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I don't see how you're reaching that conclusion. I don't see any specific connections to SS, just various different small connections to the other Zeldas like usual.
ReyVGM
Member
I don't know if you played SS, but I just did and I can definitely see the influence now. That giant enemy from the E3 trailer does have the same look and style as the laser towers from the Laynaru dungeon. The Goblins are pretty much the sames ones from SS too.
If you've watched any of the Analysis videos from Gamexplain, you'll see other hints, such as the drawing on the shield, Link being righthanded, the art style, and several more stuff.
But of course, it can end up being a detached sequel like how Twilight is supposed to be a Ocarina sequel.
MisterGrey3000
Member
What does "more overworld" even mean and how in the hell does it apply to Zelda 1?
Skyward Sword's Hyrule overworld had tons of interesting mechanics and dynamics thanks to it's dungeon-like structure; the player actually spent a lot of time exploring forest, running up walls, swinging on vines, walking across tight ropes over chasms, exploring underground passages, avoiding boulders while climbing up a volcano, knocking down Bokoblin watch towers, latching onto the sides of giant rock pillars in a vast dessert, riding dangerously fast mine carts in an ancient ship yard, hopping over boiling lakes of lava, riding monster shells on sinking sand, sailing an ancient sea, exploring dusty pirate strongholds, and time traveling in ancient robot ruins.
I don't think there has ever been an LoZ Hyrule/overworld as demanding of the player, and rich with content as the one in SS.
I don't get how asking for the game to be more like Zelda 1 is asking for "more overworld" when all Zelda 1's overworld consisted of us was terrible readability, a lot of slow walking, poorly designed un-intuitive secrets, 8-bit scenery, and large swaths of annoying enemies to deal with (What were they thinking with that poke mechanic?); there was really nothing special about it sans it's free-roaming nature.
Also, I don't want harder combat in Zelda.
LoZ's not a combat-centric game, and it hasn't been since Zelda 2; I guess I'd like to be able to choose hero-mode from the beginning, but that's about it.
I'd rather they continue to make the combat more breezy and stylish so I can feel like a cool nimble hero without wondering, "Man...when am I gonna get to run, jump, climb, and use my items again?"
Further more, Post-ALTTP Dungeons have already been way more satisfying than any of the pre-Aonuma dungeons thanks to the constant evolution of the
Link/item/environment/boss interplay that's been getting better and better since OoT.
Zelda 1's dungeons are incredibly simple and archaic; there is nothing special about them...most of the time the player is just running into monster closets or pushing blocks; the mechanics and the dynamics they create are completely brain-dead. What kind of inspiration could come from studying those level designs when they're so poor compared to what we have now?
Zelda 1 is such flawed game, I don't feel anything but frustration and confusion when I play it; All of those emotions and feelings that the small vocal pocket of LoZ1 worshipers seem to get from the game never seem to manifest themselves in my play-throughs.
I respect the game immensely for it's influence and experimentation..but saying "Aww man, this is gonna be just like Zelda 1!" sounds absolutely dreadful to me.
Edit: Also, that really was a lame bump...come on now...a "My cousin works for____" story, get real.
Every Zelda game has references to the other Zeldas, and it's been like that for many years. I've seen elements of OoT, TP, Zelda 1, and WW in the trailers, and I'll see many more references as we see more of the game.
TheMoon
Member
My sister-in-law's neighbor's ferret says the junior's friend's sister is legit.
No. Whilst it's true all Zeldas share a lineage (since they're all part of same the royal family), different incarnations of Link are not actually physically related to each other, just random inheritors of the same hero's spirit.
Most Zelda games have only two or three towns already.
ReyVGM
Member
Yes, but the SS ones are more pronounced. Just like Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks were direct sequels to Wind Waker.
Are you sure, because I swore I saw a pig snout. I mean I guess they seem to have a round head like in SS. But then so didn't Moblins in ALttP/LBW About the only unique connection I can see is them also being red.
And lord, so many "my stance on Zelda is the only right one" and anyone who likes games or elements in the franchise you don't are "worshipers" or "only like it because it has Zelda in the title." Got enough factions to make a Civilization spin off!*
Also in doing a re-play through some of the big games in franchise I'd say combat, from my point of view, only really dropped in WW. ALttP still has a big focu on it, though perhaps focuses on trap rooms even more, (dodging Beamos, the sliding traps and moving floors in Dark Place and so on) which doesn't really fit into the binary "puzzle or combat are the only major activities in dungeons!" that often seems pushed.
OoT has a sort of split were combat grows bigger and more like an easier version of AoL in the Adult temples, well being present but not as focused on in the child section.
WW is probably the big Zelda game were it's at it's lightest, though i'm not all the way through a re-play yet, Dabbling in TP seems to suggest the combat is back to the amount you might find in OoT, just with the WW difficulty.
*Note to self: sell Nintendo and Meier on this.
dreampeppers99
Member
I'm replaying each of 3D zeldas (I'll leave Majora's for 3DS). And I must say, I totally agree with you. For me, "Zelda Wii U" will be much more of a better SS in all senses, which is GREAT.
SS is the best Zelda (3D) for me! Even though motion controls are hard and often annoying ! But summarizing the game in one line.
"it's dungeon-like structure; the player actually spent a lot of time exploring forest, running up walls, swinging on vines, walking across tight ropes over chasms, exploring underground passages"
MisterGrey3000
Member
It's definitely not a binary; running, jumping, targeting, climbing, pushing, pulling, shooting, smashing, and all sorts of other platformer-esque mechanics/dynamics that we lump into "puzzle solving" makes up the vast majority of what the player is doing when they're exploring and conquering dungeons. Overcoming obstacles, solving puzzles, and evading traps with Links core mechanics and his vast array of unique non-disposable item mechanics is of paramount importance to the interactive identity of Zelda.
The traditional combat in these games only exists for thematic purposes, and to add differences in kind (Which I'm totally fine with); outside of that the traditional combat mechanics are quite shallow. Hell, the most complex and deep sword-play dynamics in these games comes from physically waiting for an aggressive shielded enemy to drop it's guard. That's a super basic thing in most games dedicated to their combat mechanics and the dynamics those mechanics create.
That doesn't mean that people can't attach themselves to Zelda's combat elements or that they're wrong for doing so; great game feel is something that LoZ's combat mechanics excel at, they make the simplistic dynamics really engaging.
Also, game design is more art than science; EAD3 might be designing deep and complex Link/Item/Environment/Boss interplay with the hope that it will be most players core gameplay engagement, but things don't always work out that way.
People will like what they like.
I honestly don't think it is for everyone. I bet if you ask most fans of the more "combat side" what they think of the two examples I mentioned in my last post they wouldn't classify them as puzzles because 1) avoiding beamo, beams, or a sliding traps doesn't involve much solving and 2) are heavily action based with a clear threat of taking damage or even dying if you mess up too much.
It comes back to "puzzle" being a very broad category making it less then useful. In the case of Zelda that broadness is often used to create a vast "us" to show how this IS Zelda, or a vast "them" that must be fought and expelled, all well I'm sure there are elements being cast as "puzzles" by one side that the other side would reject. I'll comment on the combat later, it's getting late for me.
Nothing about this game reminds me of original Zelda except for the overworld concept. So there's sunsets, mountains, beaches, and wooden swords. You all are reading way too into this.
I don't remember the original 1986 title having a blue-garbed hooded Link on a horse, with a laser bow, fighting a giant ancient roaming crab robot.
Plus, Aonuma said over and over he was trying to rethink the conventions of Zelda, and add brand new elements to the franchise. I don't think he meant "remake the very first Zelda game." Do you?
I don't remember the original 1986 title having a blue-garbed hooded Link on a horse, with a laser bow, fighting a giant ancient roaming crab robot.
Plus, Aonuma said over and over he was trying to rethink the conventions of Zelda, and add brand new elements to the franchise. I don't think he meant "remake the very first Zelda game." Do you?
ReyVGM
Member
Wow at the Lanayru Sand Sea from Skyward Sword. I feel sad for the ones that skipped or gave up on Skyward Sword, the game gets really awesome as it progresses. I understand now why so many people are raving about the timeshift stones. This area is incredible.
I do wish something like this gets reused heavily on the new Zelda.
I do wish something like this gets reused heavily on the new Zelda.
Yeah, that area is just incredible. It's basically my favorite parts of the game.
TheMoon
Member
Not at all.
Btw, everyone keeps calling the enemies Moblins. But they're not Moblins.
They're Bokoblins or Bulblins (though the latter tend to be green). Moblins are always big hulking creatures and Bokoblins and Bulblins are always little grunt enemies that look more impish.
Bokoblins:
Wind Waker design
Twilight Princess design
Skyward Sword design
Bulblin
Twilgiht Princess design
Spirit Tracks design
Moblin
Zelda 1
Zelda II
ALTTP
Ocarina of Time design
Wind Waker
Skyward Sword
ALBW
dampflokfreund
Banned
Yeah the only area in SS which really is Zelda worthy.
What? The Bokoblins are looking nothing like SS. They are darker and aren't so goofy looking.
dampflokfreund
Banned
Anyone else hoping for a memoryable, unique and touching story for Zelda U? So more a story like Links Awakening and Majoras Mask and less of a Skyward Sword/A Link between Worlds type of story.
Edit: Sorry for doublepost, thought the thread would be more active...
Edit: Sorry for doublepost, thought the thread would be more active...
As long as the story doesn't take up too much space I'm all for it.
So for combat,there's three elements at play that I see in the discussion, mainly a conflict ion focus, complexity and difficulty as all being the same thing, there not. Kirby's platforming is often very easy, that doesn’t make it not a platformer. Likewise a most Shumps don't involve complex shooting or mechanics, that doesn’t make even an easy one not a shooter.
If you have a noticeable amount of something, no matter how easy or simple that is the main part of the game. The only Zelda games that come close to treating combat less as a main ingredient and more as flavoring is the DS ones, and maybe WW. Even then the presence of locked rooms, mini-bosses and boss keep combat from ever going to far from the center of Zeld'a's gravity.
The other thing I disagree with is that Zelda's combat is not developed. Yes LoZ, AlttP doesn’t have super complex mechanics, but combined different enemy designs and level layout can result more complex combat then just looking at Link's sword moves would suggest alone.
OoT clearly put a lot of time and effort into it's combat system and showed it off a lot. And well you could just passively wait for defenses to drop you could also bait enemies by getting up close, use stunning deku nuts or drop Z-trageting to run behind them and so on. It also has the already mentioned level layout, and enemy design elements playing into the combat.
Part of this is feels like “seeing what you expect to see.” that is if your expecting combat to be seasoning then there' enough other elements in Zelda that you can mentally focus on them and not notice all the combat that is happening.
If you have a noticeable amount of something, no matter how easy or simple that is the main part of the game. The only Zelda games that come close to treating combat less as a main ingredient and more as flavoring is the DS ones, and maybe WW. Even then the presence of locked rooms, mini-bosses and boss keep combat from ever going to far from the center of Zeld'a's gravity.
The other thing I disagree with is that Zelda's combat is not developed. Yes LoZ, AlttP doesn’t have super complex mechanics, but combined different enemy designs and level layout can result more complex combat then just looking at Link's sword moves would suggest alone.
OoT clearly put a lot of time and effort into it's combat system and showed it off a lot. And well you could just passively wait for defenses to drop you could also bait enemies by getting up close, use stunning deku nuts or drop Z-trageting to run behind them and so on. It also has the already mentioned level layout, and enemy design elements playing into the combat.
Part of this is feels like “seeing what you expect to see.” that is if your expecting combat to be seasoning then there' enough other elements in Zelda that you can mentally focus on them and not notice all the combat that is happening.
Astral Dog
Member
Well, Skyward Sword tried to be a touching, memorable story for Zelda...
I dont know, there has not been a good Zelda story since Wind Waker, the problem is that they know how to do interesting settings, but they forget about the characters or dont care enough, even worse using them as very poorly disguised tutorials like on Skyward Sword
Links Awakening was good in its simplicity, but Zelda U needs to be more complex and fleshed out, hopefully they get it right this time.
Also, there is nothing wrong with cutscenes on Zelda when used right, just pace them so that there are interesting ones on the journey, and not just at specific points at beggining and end.
This kind of blew my mind
I would love to see a new IP based on this mechanic. Like portal. Could be amazing.
Ultra Numb
Member
I actually kinda hope they don't make the combat like Dark Souls as many are hoping. I think if Nintendo wants to raise the difficulty they should focus on the difficulty of their level design, the puzzles in particular.
TheMoon
Member
They won't. 100% guaranteed.
They shouldn't, because Zelda is its own game with its own mechanics. They should rather keep inventing new stuff like the slow-mo attack when jumping off the horse. That's the kind of gameplay mechanics I want to see!
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Is there any youtube videos of just the music..? The simple piano based pieces we've been hearing so far.. e3 hyrule field, e3 enemy fight, VGAs small little piece 
help i need them
help i need themIt would be a start!
Yeah, they can sort of do just fine. TP Link is related to OoT Link though. So I think that confirms OoT Link and OoT Zelda as not being together.
Also, I think Link has to come from a knight's bloodline.
Want.
Even though it won't be exactly like MM, as it would need a way to manipulate time for possible missable events, it would be interesting if some events were related to the time.. Like the ghost ship in WW
LegendofLex
Member
People see overworlds as relatively open and/or interconnected spaces where they can freely explore. The free-exploration to on-rails progression ratio in recent Zelda games doesn't remotely resemble the ratio of the early Zelda games, which was basically "95% of the world can be reached from the get-go, you're only really on rails inside of dungeons."
Nowadays the "overworld" is meted out in pieces, with large swaths of the game consisting of a linear pathway that cannot be deviated from (often literally, with walls on either side, lava preventing you from leaving the path, or the path consisting of an actual tunnel). You'll occasionally find places where the linear path becomes just open enough to allow you to find the Kikwis in different orders before you enter the dungeon.
Yes, SS checks all the boxes in terms of "things to see and do" with forest areas and moutnains and caves and ancient robot factories, but none of this content gives the player the feeling that they "discovered" it since all of it was telegraphed to the player through mandatory exposition and most of it is literally plotted on the map before you ever have a chance to try to get there on your own.
What's there to read? You check all the exposed caves for NPC hints, Rupees, shops, and dungeons; burn suspicious trees and walls that look like they could house secret caves; and follow NPC clues to some of the tougher dungeons. Maybe you could say its areas aren't very distinct and the game is therefore visually confusing, but no one is asking for a world that's as limited visually as LoZ's.
TP is the first Zelda game to introduce fast travel before the player has finished the first three dungeons. And LoZ's world can be crossed from end to end in about three minutes. But sure, let's say LoZ stands out as the Zelda with the boring walking.
Basically all of the mandatory "secrets" are analogs of secrets in other games.
- The only place in the entire overworld map where you're required to use a bomb is mentioned by an NPC. Likewise, how does OoT introduce the first scenario where you're required to use a bomb? Through NPCs.
- SS has a moment where you're supposed to bomb a wall, but only recognize that it can be bombed based on the dungeon map. Same principle is involved in basically every fake wall in LoZ's dungeons.
- Playing a song to drain the water? Don't you do that in OoT? And didn't an optional NPC conversation tip you off to the idea?
At the time, Zelda was one of the most rich games in its class. In 30 years, people will probably be just as dismissive of games made with our current tech level. No one is asking for an 8-bit overworld, though; they are asking for an overworld that is just as impressive relative to the games of our time as Zelda 1's was relative to the games of its time.
I'd wager they were thinking that an action game should require precision from the player.
If the combat is so boring that you want to end it already, then it's bad combat. Why don't you want more engaging combat?
TBQH, after playing all the newer Zeldas first, I find fighting tough groups of enemies and searching for the right route to the end of the maze much more engaging and challenging than repeating the same item-based puzzle patterns with varying levels of complexity.
You're definitely right that environmental puzzles are better than block puzzles. But block puzzles weren't a strong suit of Zelda 1 anyway. And that's not to say that I want no puzzles, only combat and mazes.
I'd just rather have the strengths of the Zelda 1 dungeons--the sense of danger from the enemies and the good navigation sense required by the maze-like level design--captured alongside the environmental puzzles (which should definitely replace the "push a random block" moments), instead of simply being strung along from one puzzle to the next with no other substantial tests of skill as in the current model.
Even after finishing the game several times, I still get lost and still have to be careful about managing potions in LoZ's dungeons. Meanwhile, I never get lost and never have to worry about health in modern Zeldas, and on top of that the over-reliance on puzzles as a source of challenge means the dungeons are no fun at all when I already know the solutions.
Zelda 1 is a tremendously replayable game, and that's probably a large part of why it's a huge classic--classics hold a lot of value over time. Newer Zeldas (and SS in particular) don't really capture that. They're not bad games, but they aren't games I could call all-time classics with a straight face. Truthfully, the last Zelda I could say does that is Ocarina of Time (maybe Majora's Mask, but only for players with a certain palette), but only because that game's proven its replayability.
How fantastic it will be when you find out that people who want Zelda to be like Zelda 1 don't want crappy block puzzles, trial-and-error secrets, bad 8-bit visuals, or combat that's so boring that climbing things is a high point of the game, either.
TekGryphon
Banned
Agreed. Having just come from Dragon Age: Inquisitions, the first thing I thought seeing the demo was "Ick". I want a Zelda game that's packed full of tight content and puzzles, not tracts of empty land, especially when the cost of that huge rendering distance is out-dated, bland textures in the foreground.
After watching the full thing I couldn't help but think that there wasn't a single moment that hasn't been done better by DA:I, Skyrim, or any number of other releases, and won't be blown out of the water by Witcher 3.
I guess the only way to get that real Zelda experience now-a-days is to be on PC with Steam and downloading all the great indie action-RPGs. The Kickstarter demo for Hyper Light Drifter gave me 100x the old Zelda nostalgia feels than this ever could.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmMosNHhyxI
I'll take that incredible art style (0:31, 0:42, 1:10, 1:25) over this blandness any day.
Same could be said about romance in Zelda, you know.
LegendofLex
Member
Let's be honest: combat is terrible in most games.
What people like me want from combat in Zelda is to at least feel like those potions and better swords and better shields and better armor we can get are actually worthwhile based on the combat intensity of the game. And it'd be nice if they weren't just handed to us at a predetermined point in the story, but instead had to be discovered and earned.
I'm not expecting combat in Zelda to be the absolute gold standard against which all game combat should be measured. (Although, truthfully, I think combat in Zelda 1 was better than combat in pretty much any RPG type game I've played from the era.) I just expect it to have Nintendo feels + an incentive to make my character stronger besides the completionist itch.
you'll all come around to it eventually
ReyVGM
Member
You don't necessarily need to manipulate time (other than maybe sleeping until night/morning). Or maybe it's like Xenoblade Chronicles X, in which you 'sleep' in a chamber and you can 'awake' at any time of the day.
And it could work like this:
Let's say there's a NPC looking for his runaway daughter. If you never talk to that person, then that person would stay every new day worrying where she might be. But if you talk to him in the morning, then you trigger the event of him looking around town for his daughter.
So let's say you need to meet that person at 6PM at a certain place for the 2nd event. If you never meet him at that 2nd event, then the next day he either goes back to the 1st step (worrying about his daughter) or he'll stay on that 6PM event (looking for his daughter).
Then you talk to him again, and trigger a 3rd event, and so on.
That way, each new day would either reset the event, or the NPC would just stay at the last event you triggered. Or maybe after you complete 2 or 3 events, on each new day, the NPC will go through his routine and complete those events automatically until you intervene and trigger the next event in that quest.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
I mean you're wrong but continue to live in that fantasy world anyway
You sound snobbish. Maybe you should wait until the full game is out until you make such assertions.
don't know why but I'm falling into zelda hype :
good that MM is coming in few weeks
Nobody can escape the Zelda hype.
I mean you're wrong but continue to live in that fantasy world anyway
single button for sword and extra buttons for fairly useless combat alternatives
radical
ReyVGM
Member
I mean you're wrong but continue to live in that fantasy world anyway
Gee I didn't know you got all that from a couple minutes of off screen footage.
And for a game that's still a year away from release. Not to mention that Nintendo games, unlike the competition, usually look way better at the end of its dev cycle.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
I really wish people would stop saying stuff like this. "The Real Zelda Experience" is an entirely nebulous concept and means something different to everyone.
you seem mad about something
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Dragon age? The game not even open world
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