Support NeoGAF

[kipsta]

https://www.scribd.com/doc/308217501/Benzies-4-12-E-filed-Complaint

It's a long read but gives quite an insight into the illusive Houser brothers, and their supposed 'deceptiveness'

Rockstar being my favorite developers ever, looking up to them, and even blindly willing to purchase any of their future games, without knowing anything about it other than the fact that it's made by them... I'm really saddened but this whole situation.

 

[DerZuhälter]

Leslie Benzies. I have to admit I've been interested in video games for a long time and never ever heard of him before. Rockstar in general seems to be a very secretive society, with spouses crying about crunch, but the inner workings in terms of employees in critical positions being rarely talked about.

"Sam Houser himself has orchestrated and encouraged a company culture involving strip clubs, personal photography of employees in sexually compromising positions, and other conduct grossly in violations of standard workplace norms."

I think this will change all too soon.

 

[striferser]

Brendan Sinclair from Gamesindustry.biz is tweeting details from the lawsuit.

https://twitter.com/BrendanSinclair/status/719927316466561024

I NEED THE BENZ!
Darkness!
God that was hilarious. Someone need to put that line in a comedy movie about Rockstar

 

[TheSeks]

I NEED THE BENZ!
Darkness!
God that was hilarious. Someone need to put that line in a comedy movie about Rockstar

They need to put it into the biopic that Harry Potter is starring in.

Leslie Benzies. I have to admit I've been interested in video games for a long time and never ever heard of him before. Rockstar in general seems to be a very secretive society, with spouses crying about crunch, but the inner workings in terms of employees in critical positions being rarely talked about.

"Sam Houser himself has orchestrated and encouraged a company culture involving strip clubs, personal photography of employees in sexually compromising positions, and other conduct grossly in violations of standard workplace norms."

I think this will change all too soon.

I dunno, if nobody complained about that for a decade or more... I'm not really seeing anything "on fire lawsuits!!!!" about it, as crazy as that allegation sounds. What's more crazy is that the Housers can't manage a game despite building DMA/Rockstar with Grand Theft Auto 1-2 in the 90's. AFAIK they were the overseer's of those and the London 1969 expansion. Or Lemmings. I'd have to actually look at the credits but if they can't manage anymore, how is GTA6 and so on gonna be getting out the door if they don't find a new producer or keep Leslie happy?

 

[SneakyStephan]

If that stuff is true and with proof how on earth did they think it would work out.

The next Rockstar game should be interesting.

The money going around, wow. How rich are these people?

Puts getting nickle and dimed with shark cards and rockstar sabotaging modding into perspective when these people are able to pay themselves hundreds of millions of dollars in profit shares off of gta5

As rich as the sea is deep but it's never enough.

 

[fenners]

What's more crazy is that the Housers can't manage a game despite building DMA/Rockstar with Grand Theft Auto 1-2 in the 90's. AFAIK they were the overseer's of those and the London 1969 expansion. Or Lemmings.

The Housers had little to do with GTA1&2, Sam Houser was 'executive producer' meaning he had little day to day interaction with DMA. GTA London was built by another Rockstar team using the GTA1 engine & was written by Dan Houser.

They certainly didn't build DMA or have anything to do with Lemmings, and it's a disservice to the folk who did to associate its success with them.

 

[Occam]

So they just locked Benzies out when he returned despite having been an integral part of Rockstar for many years? WTF. No company should treat any employee that way. Totally unacceptable.

 

[MMaRsu]

Heres an interview with Benzies after GTAV was released. He talks about how the studio works etc.

http://www.develop-online.net/studio-profile/inside-rockstar-north-part-2-the-studio/0184061

Not much, but an interesting read for those not so familliar with Benzies.

 

[zsidane]

Reading the 71 page long complain, and it reinforce an image I always had about T2 executives: a bunch of lawyers and bureaucrats that won't hesitate to act mafia-style.

Hope he beats the shit out of them and we see people that cares about video games a little bit more at the head of the company.

 

[SlickShoes]

When I worked there even the QA manager couldn't let people go or fire folk properly.

We worked a contract and it was extended, after that extension some of us were let go and some got kept on, we all knew this and it was last in first out. Instead of just telling us this the QA manager took us all into individual meetings and said no one was getting kept on, everyone would be let go on X date and thanks for your work please come back one day, use me as a reference yadda yadda. Then 2 days later all the people being kept on were secretly to come in to work and not tell anyone that had been let go.

It was like a business being run by children, have no idea how it would function at all without the ridiculous amounts of money floating about.

Also to the person questioning holidays given to Les and the Devs, Les is the boss of R* North, so when the games they make hit big he will surely be rewarded and 6 months off doesnt seem unusual. Normal devs often got up to a month paid holiday for free after a big release with only skeleton staff in to keep things ticking over.

Also my NDA that I signed lasted 10 years beyond my employment, not sure if that's normal but it's been a long time.

 

[UrbanDandy]

Reading the 71 page long complain, and it reinforce an image I always had about T2 executives: a bunch of lawyers and bureaucrats that won't hesitate to act mafia-style.

Hope he beats the shit out of them and we see people that cares about video games a little bit more at the head of the company.

You're not wrong; Take-Two's executive staff have law degrees and have made careers in being lawyers.

 

[potatohead]

https://www.scribd.com/doc/308217501/Benzies-4-12-E-filed-Complaint

It's a long read but gives quite an insight into the illusive Houser brothers, and their supposed 'deceptiveness'

Rockstar being my favorite developers ever, looking up to them, and even blindly willing to purchase any of their future games, without knowing anything about it other than the fact that it's made by them... I'm really saddened but this whole situation.

I was in that boat too, but that was a long time ago.... PS2 trilogy was GOAT for me.

GTA IV was good, RDR was great.... GTA V turned me off though.

I sensed something was wrong, I'm kind of happy to have confirmation of this tug of war going on at Rockstar.

Does this mean a juggernaut of games may be in trouble at least for the time being? Maybe.

Will it affect the games.... that is the only question I have atm.... who knows?

 

[potatohead]

Heres an interview with Benzies after GTAV was released. He talks about how the studio works etc.

http://www.develop-online.net/studio-profile/inside-rockstar-north-part-2-the-studio/0184061

Not much, but an interesting read for those not so familliar with Benzies.

It's funny to read these though. And only two years later the drama is discovered, it couldn't have been manufactured only post-this-interview, at least I very much doubt it.

In a studio invitation interview, the developer can sell an image of themselves, and the journos will be none the wiser as to how accurate said image is.

Knowing what truly happens behind the scenes is very different from a controlled presentation version of a studio.

Do we really know what happens at Naughty Dog or Bungie, for example? I love their games, but I don't think so, no matter how many curated developer spiels we get about how everything is about hard work and imagination.

The real world is very, very different, and much more concrete, yet hidden sometimes, in how things work or how things get done.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I sensed something was wrong, I'm kind of happy to have confirmation of this tug of war going on at Rockstar.

I don't mean to be funny, but I really don't think that what you "sensed" relates to this. The 'tug of war' seems (according to The Benz's side of the argument, at least) to have started after GTA:O was in the wild (October 2013) and Sam Houser had a shit fit after seeing Benzies name in the most prominent spot in the credits. That's well after GTA V was completed.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

When I worked there even the QA manager couldn't let people go or fire folk properly.

We worked a contract and it was extended, after that extension some of us were let go and some got kept on, we all knew this and it was last in first out. Instead of just telling us this the QA manager took us all into individual meetings and said no one was getting kept on, everyone would be let go on X date and thanks for your work please come back one day, use me as a reference yadda yadda. Then 2 days later all the people being kept on were secretly to come in to work and not tell anyone that had been let go.

It was like a business being run by children, have no idea how it would function at all without the ridiculous amounts of money floating about.

Also to the person questioning holidays given to Les and the Devs, Les is the boss of R* North, so when the games they make hit big he will surely be rewarded and 6 months off doesnt seem unusual. Normal devs often got up to a month paid holiday for free after a big release with only skeleton staff in to keep things ticking over.

Also my NDA that I signed lasted 10 years beyond my employment, not sure if that's normal but it's been a long time.

Holy. Shit. I just...are you still under that humongous NDA or?

 

[endlessflood]

Benz gonna make another IP the new open world king. What company is most likely to target him? Ubi right?

Ubisoft would be falling all over themselves I'm sure. God knows they could use him.

The sad thing here though is that it's a net loss for the industry no matter what happens. As someone else said, Benzies was a perfect fit for R*, but that's been pissed away.

I'd love that know what Take2 actually think about this. GTAO has been a huge money-spinner for them, and Benzies was the man behind it.

 

[The Albatross]

So they just locked Benzies out when he returned despite having been an integral part of Rockstar for many years? WTF. No company should treat any employee that way. Totally unacceptable.

That's what Benzie's lawyers are alleging in a case to be awarded millions of dollars, yes.

They'll likely settle, so we'll probably never see Rockstar/Houser's side of this.

 

[MMaRsu]

That's what Benzie's lawyers are alleging in a case to be awarded millions of dollars, yes.

They'll likely settle, so we'll probably never see Rockstar/Houser's side of this.

I hope he doesnt settle out of court tho

 

[Pathfinder]

I hope he doesnt settle out of court tho

All depends what the settlement is. Courtroom proceedings can take a lot of out someone. Sometimes its easier to settle and save all the trouble.

 

[LiquidSolid]

Rockstar issued a statement:

If anything, I feel like this confirms that he was fired because Sam Houser had a tantrum over Benzies putting his name last in the credits.

 

[MMaRsu]

If anything, I feel like this confirms that he was fired because Sam Houser had a tantrum over Benzies putting his name last in the credits.

Yeah pretty much, even in this statement it reads as if they resent him putting his name last.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

That response, along with your analysis, guys, are just destroying Rockstar's image to me.

I agree with you that Valve consistently puts out good writing. But to be fair to the rest of developers, Valve has released 1 game in nearly 10 years that has any dialog in it, and it probably amounts to about ~45minutes of total dialog in the 10 hour campaign of Portal 2.

I don't think this is accurate considering just one of the cores in the end of the game has more than 5 minutes of dialogue. In an 8-10 hour game, where the protagonist doesn't speak, and every level has monologues at the beginning and the end of every level, and even sometimes through the level, that 45 minute figure is extremely reduced.

However, that's not to say that Valve's effort can be compared to Rockstar's herculean effort of such a huge open world, and have it work as it did.

 

[endlessflood]

If anything, I feel like this confirms that he was fired because Sam Houser had a tantrum over Benzies putting his name last in the credits.

Yeah, it's a pretty tepid response, isn't it? What a sad reason to end one of the greatest partnerships in gaming history.

 

[Joni]

I dunno, if nobody complained about that for a decade or more... I'm not really seeing anything "on fire lawsuits!!!!" about it, as crazy as that allegation sounds. What's more crazy is that the Housers can't manage a game despite building DMA/Rockstar with Grand Theft Auto 1-2 in the 90's. AFAIK they were the overseer's of those and the London 1969 expansion. Or Lemmings. I'd have to actually look at the credits but if they can't manage anymore, how is GTA6 and so on gonna be getting out the door if they don't find a new producer or keep Leslie happy?

It is important to remember that David Jones played a huge role prior to the Rockstar era. Leslie Benzies got his role because Jones left. That is the guy that programmed Lemmings, that founded DMA, that lead Grand Theft Auto. Don't forget Sam Houser basically started as Simon Cowell's assistant , that he is mainly a vision guy that lead BMG to go after Grand Theft Auto.

 

[Screaming Meat]

At this point I feel like Sam Houser has completed his transformation and become a full fledged, poorly written GTA character.

 

[xenorevlis]

They need to put it into the biopic that Harry Potter is starring in.

That came out last September, cited as a "factual drama" and Rockstar weren't "impressed" by it.

 

[exmachina64]

Leslie Benzies. I have to admit I've been interested in video games for a long time and never ever heard of him before. Rockstar in general seems to be a very secretive society, with spouses crying about crunch, but the inner workings in terms of employees in critical positions being rarely talked about.

"Sam Houser himself has orchestrated and encouraged a company culture involving strip clubs, personal photography of employees in sexually compromising positions, and other conduct grossly in violations of standard workplace norms."

I think this will change all too soon.

Their company culture sounds disgusting and I'm glad this is being exposed.

 

[dreamfall]

It'd be nice if Sam Houser actually surfaced, and went on record to clear the air a bit. He wont't, because he's elusive as ever, after reading the entire document - eeeeesh, that's all pretty shameful. It's definitely one side of the story, but Benzies always felt like an integral part of Rockstar so it leaves me conflicted.

With the next Red Dead reveal probably at E3, the drama doesn't bode well. I would've loved to see some Episodes for single player in GTA V, but it feels like we're veering towards all multiplayer development. I also see that they're profiting like crazy over microtransactions, so they're comfortable dishing out multiplayer updates.

 

[Big_Al]

What does Sam Houser actually do at Rockstar ? I know for example Dan does a lot of writing but never really heard of what Sam does. Business stuff in the background ?

 

[Kevtones]

This sounds like it will be the best videogame movie of all-time when it's released.

 

[Joni]

What does Sam Houser actually do at Rockstar ? I know for example Dan does a lot of writing but never really heard of what Sam does. Business stuff in the background ?

Sam Houser is President of Rockstar Games. He is the boss.

 

[Dorsal Axe]

It's good to have proper confirmation that Red Dead's development was indeed a total shitshow, which corroborates all the past allegations about what went on during that time.

Also it corroborates past allegations that Sam Houser is an egotitistical cunt.

 

[bj00rn_]

I see most people are choosing sides from the basis of a one-sided lawyer document..

So what happened to "there are two sides to every story"? Just asking

 

[Screaming Meat]

I see most people are choosing sides from the basis of a one-sided lawyer document..

So what happened to "there are two sides to every story"? Just asking

I've read both documents actually. The Houser's counter claim is all founded on some down right dirty legal judo. The accusations they throw at The Benz's supposedly terrible conduct lack anything substantial (in the documents) and make few, if any, references to anything specific.

 

[Joni]

I see most people are choosing sides from the basis of a one-sided lawyer document..

So what happened to "there are two sides to every story"? Just asking

We don't have detailed court documents in most cases, just short stories from one side that offer no proof.

 

[MMaRsu]

I see most people are choosing sides from the basis of a one-sided lawyer document..

So what happened to "there are two sides to every story"? Just asking

If you read the counter suit they have nothing but allegations

 

[Makoto-Yuki]

the fuck rockstar? why on earth would you want to get rid of Leslie Benzies? ya dun goofed rockstar.

 

[endlessflood]

I see most people are choosing sides from the basis of a one-sided lawyer document..

So what happened to "there are two sides to every story"? Just asking

One side just happens to look shady as fuck. Benzies' lawyers basically claimed that he got fucked over, and Rockstar's/Take Two's lawyers basically fired back with 'yes, but his contract had provisions which allowed us to fuck him over if we wanted.'

I'm against fucking people over as a general principle, and it seems many others here are too.

 

[KojiKnight]

One side just happens to look shady as fuck. Benzies' lawyers basically claimed that he got fucked over, and Rockstar's/Take Two's lawyers basically fired back with 'yes, but his contract had provisions which allowed us to fuck him over if we wanted.'

I'm against fucking people over as a general principle, and it seems many others here are too.

This. Their whole argument seems to be less "We didn't stab him in the back" but instead more "the contract says we can stab him in the back without repurcussions."

 

[SlickShoes]

Holy. Shit. I just...are you still under that humongous NDA or?

Nah it's now been 10 years since I worked there plus i'm sure they do not care what i'm saying anyway as most of it will be common knowledge. We tested an expansion pack they made for GTA San Andreas on the PS2, that was about the most secretive thing I know, it was even burned to discs and ready to sell but got canned in the end.

 

[Englebert3rd]

It was like a business being run by children, have no idea how it would function at all without the ridiculous amounts of money floating about.

It did start from a pretty small team and got big relatively fast, so no wonder why it was run like children.
It's no wonder why it's so shady and so secretive about their projects and development.

 

[SlickShoes]

It did start from a pretty small team and got big relatively fast, so no wonder why it was run like children.
It's no wonder why it's so shady and so secretive about their projects and development.

Yeah, the QA manager had been there for many years since it was DMA I think. He once had a tantrum in the staff lounge because someone ate the garlic pizza bread from dominos that he didn't even order. Good times!

 

[Makoto-Yuki]

Nah it's now been 10 years since I worked there plus i'm sure they do not care what i'm saying anyway as most of it will be common knowledge. We tested an expansion pack they made for GTA San Andreas on the PS2, that was about the most secretive thing I know, it was even burned to discs and ready to sell but got canned in the end.

anything else you can tell us about this SA expansion?

 

[UrbanDandy]

I found this interesting (take it for what you will)

From TechTimes - published on Jan 13 of this year:

The reasons behind Benzies' departure from Rockstar North are unknown. It is speculated that the ideological differences between him and the studio surrounding the development of Grand Theft Auto VI may have been the catalyst.

In October 2013, a few weeks after the launch of Grand Theft Auto V, Benzies let on that the studio had "some ideas" for the next title in the series. His statement hinted at a fallout between him and the studio as he stepped away from the company for a sabbatical, probably to think things through.

I can't find anywhere else he made this statement. Which is weird that Benz still had a good working relationship with the Housers when they accepted the HOF in 2014. I may have my info wrong, but correct me if necessary.

 

[Poohblaster]

Also my NDA that I signed lasted 10 years beyond my employment, not sure if that's normal but it's been a long time.

I'm going to rat you out to Strauss Zelnick.

 

[SlickShoes]

anything else you can tell us about this SA expansion?

It wasn't very good as far as GTA DLC content goes, what they done for GTA4 was much better. It was just a mission pack, military themed, you played as CJ, there were 12 or so missions, you had access to certain weapons in certain missions, most of it was forgettable but one involved the jet pack and another had you guiding missiles fired from a submarine.

 

[DasPenguin]

Personally, I'm gonna hold judgement until the actual truth goes out. When lawyers get in the mix, it is always the accusing side who looks better... at first at least.

Benzies was a big part of GTA and it was weird that he left when it was announced. What's even weirder that this lawsuit took this long. If you haven't resigned, wouldn't you make a big fuss about immediately? Why wait for so long? That "My key didn't work " thing didn't make any sense though. Even if you are taking a break after a big game launches, if you are the head of the company I'm sure you have some contact with them during your break. No way somebody changed the locks on him while he was away. That sounds way too ridiculous to be true.

 

[MMaRsu]

Because he was planning on sueing them and that takes time and preperation? With the counterclaim by rockstar you can read their case and youll see that its basically admitting to screwing him over.

Maybe read the stuff posted in previous pages?

 

[Ash735]

Just to add to this, Rockstar Games have updated their job listings and Rockstar North seems to be wanting an entire new team: http://www.rockstargames.com/careers/openings/rockstar-north

rdit: NOTE, Rockstar San Diego (Red Dead series) and Rockstar Toronto (PC ports) have also posted listing for a massive studio reshuffle.

 

[Digital-Hero]

Wow lol.

This is a real shame that Benzies' tenure had to end like this. Especially if it's true that he wanted to return to working at R* after his time off. He's seemingly been right there with the Houser brothers since GTA III in building R* into the powerhouse it is today.

Wow that is very revealing.