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[hydrophilic attack]

i asked someone out on the bus once based on looks only, but she had initiated extended ocular copulation on two separate bus trips so i felt pretty confident she'd go on a date, which she did

 

[excelsiorlef]

This. I realize some of ya'll sheltered on Gaf, but this is the reality.

But we're the opposite of sheltered, the women here in this thread if mostly if not all directly experienced the cat calling and sexual harassment... we are talking to our experiences here.

 

[Aizen.S.Kennedy]

So, let's do a quick Google Search and see what some studies say.

http://pashionistas.com/post/139926490718/5-statistics-that-prove-catcalling-is-a-problem

- Over 99 percent of American women say they’ve been a victim of street harassment
So, this pretty much happens to all women. Should we be OK with it, because a minority of those women might be OK with it?

- Majority of women, globally, say they first experienced street harassment before the age of 17.
Seems this happens to most girls growing up. Should we still find the general behavior acceptable, even if that leads to men doing this to young girls, or should we draw a line and say: no, just stop it?

But by all means, continue excusing this behavior, because apparently there are some women who have no problem with it /s

There are women who enjoy it. There are women who don't. These are the facts. I'm looking for your stats on the percentage of women who are ok with being called out to. Can you post those findings for me?

 

[davidwhangchoi]

There's a difference between showing interest and being creepy and inappropriate.

that's what the discussion is about right? but OP is stating all catcalling is sexual harassment which is up in the air.

That comic is infamous for a reason...

i'm not sure it's the same reason i mentioned it.

There are plenty of ways to show interest in someone of the opposite sex in the right time and place without sexual harassment. You know you could....*gasp* treat them like a human being.

it sounds like you agree with OP that all catcalling is sexual harassment.
*gasp* i'm not sure the sarcasm makes your point taken better
maybe i should've started with: "i have 5 friends that are girls, 1,2,4,5." before i posted.

How could this thread remind you of that?

Let's not act like who does the catcalling and how they do it plays a significant part in how women respond to it.

excelsiorlef, thanks for asking. i think the comic humor is it depends on who's doing it that makes the advances feel unwanted. i was responding to a post that i agreed with that the thread felt like a lecture not a discussion and by some of the responses, i'm not sure if i disagree with myself yet.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Woman walks down the street, A guy on the street sees her and says "Hey Beautiful", She ignores him and keeps walking. The guy goes back to what he was doing.

Now multiply that remark by a few hundred a year, thrown in with some more obscene remarks, women being followed, men getting threatening, and you see why some rather draw the line at the start, instead of excusing part of this behavior.

There are women who enjoy it. There are women who don't. These are the facts. I'm looking for your stats on the percentage of women who are ok with being called out to. Can you post those findings for me?

You have no facts, you have an opinion.

So, verbal street harassment has around 70% angered, 30% anxiety and 20% fear.

 

[AllGamer]

Woman walks down the street, A guy on the street sees her and says "Hey Beautiful", She ignores him and keeps walking. The guy goes back to what he was doing.

You are in for a treat.

 

[Stallion Dan]

Well, there was that wolf-whistling OK-ed by three women example, but in general, it's not a welcome thing.

There was a survey with results stating only 44% of women thought it was sexist, I'm a Celeb referenced it. Since no info on it though I thought a few celeb comments would be a more solid reference.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Edited in some public places I mentioned, not that it alters the message that much. Walking up to someone you find attractive and asking to go grab a coffee or something isn't creepy in my opinion.

I'll just disagree that walking up to someone just randomly on the street without meeting them first and saying wanna date isn't weird.

 

[LionPride]

The reason women almost have to wear earbuds or headphones on public transit, or grocery shopping, or exercising, is so that dudes don't try and hit them up.

No one wants to be hit on when they goin bout they business

 

[ant_]

Asking some stranger out on a random street corner based on absolutely nothing but her looks is kinda messed up.

This is completely ridiculous. This is how humans interact. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this.

 

[Ethelwulf]

Any woman here from Italy?

 

[Sethista]

The point is that those situations I mentioned are happening. And the girl can't predict how it will go. So she is already forced to be on the defensive and lookout for what is going to happen. This is not a nice environment for her to be walking around in, while just going to get some groceries, on her way to work, the gym, whatever.

You are asking women to just ignore this behavior, but that won't solve the actual problem. And like I said, ignoring it will have some men become aggressive, shout more remarks, call her a bitch, etc, etc. Or it might be taken that she actually likes it, because well, she didn't say otherwise. The woman being called out loses no matter what.

I agree with you that its not a nice enviroment, and dont get me wrong, im not advocating for men to catcall. Like I said before, its stupid and no men should do it.
What I am saying is, a guy that loudly says something is not the same as a guy who follows and harrasses a woman. They both did something stupid, but I dont believe they should be viewed as the same asshole.

As for how women respond to the behavior, I am not asking for women to do anything specific, I dont have that right. I just dont really follow what the ideal would be for reall life situations. Catcall happens. If not ignoring, which again I see no data to support that ignoring it leads to more assaults, that I knwo of, what else can she do? What would, in your opinion, be the best response for this situation?

Just because you don't consider something harassment because it doesn't fit your definition (which is skewed by your gender and environment), doesn't mean it's not a problem for other people.

Also, ignoring doesn't work. Because if it worked, then catcalling would have ended years ago.

I never said that my perspective is the absolute correct one, or that everyone should follow it. I imagine this is a place to talk about these things, and my perspective is what I can bring. Its great if you dont agree, just dont assign things to me that I didnt say. I agree with you, me being a man gives me a different perspective, but I assume you are not saying that I cant have any opinion or perspective in this, just becauuse I am a man, right?

Please read my response to ClosingaDoor above, I talk about the whole ignoring thing as well.

 

[archreaper93]

I'm going to preface this post by saying that I'm male, so I admit to not knowing what it's like to be cat-called near constantly. Because of that, I defer to girls to tell me how they feel about it. I've never cat-called someone, and because girls have communicated to me explicitly how it makes them feel, I never will.

However...I can't wrap my head around how it makes people feel uncomfortable. I mean, girls have said so, so it obviously is (and as a guy, I have no place to tell them otherwise), but it's still something I just can't see.

I've always been a fan of the Golden Rule. Do onto others as you want them to do onto you. And, well, I would absolutely love if I got cat-called when I went out.

Maybe it has something to do with the level of self-confidence? I've never had any confidence in my appearance, thought I was attractive, or had anyone tell me otherwise (besides my parents/grandparents/sister, but they're obligated to tell you so they don't really count). As such, if I went out and had a girl every 10 minutes yell at me some variant of "Hey sexy!", I can't see how I would take that as anything but a compliment and a confidence booster. That holy shit, someone actually does find me attractive. Would I feel differently if it actually happened? Possibly, but I don't see it right now.

I don't know, I'm just experiencing a huge disconnect between my own feelings on being cat-called and how girls say it makes them feel.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

I'll just disagree that walking up to someone just randomly on the street without meeting them first and saying wanna date isn't weird.

That's... not entirely what I said, but sure. No worries.

 

[Fliesen]

What? Do you ask someone about their job, interests, hobbies and values before asking them out or something? That's what a first date is for, imo. It's not superficial asking someone out because you find them attractive, it would be if that's the only reason you want to pursue a relationship and don't care about their other qualities, though. Holy shit.

We're derailing this, because i feel we should be able to both agree that yelling at a random passer-by "YO, LEMME GET YOUR NUMBER!" does not constitute 'asking somebody out'.

Not judging anybody who wants to go on dates mostly because of physical attraction - it's the whole point of Tinder. I didn't mean to use "superficial" in a super judgemental way. Still, when you're asking somebody out, this happens within the framing of what should at least resemble a 'conversation' that both participants should be willing to take part in.

though i feel that even on Tinder, you chat at least for a few minutes to see if there's at least a hint of chemistry between you, don't you?

 

[LotusHD]

The reason women almost have to wear earbuds or headphones on public transit, or grocery shopping, or exercising, is so that dudes don't try and hit them up.

No one wants to be hit on when they goin bout they business

But sometimes they do want to be randomly hit on, so it's okay to take that chance, if I'm understanding these posts correctly

 

[lightskintwin]

Now multiply that remark by a few hundred a year, thrown in with some more obscene remarks, women being followed, men getting threatening, and you see why some rather draw the line at the start, instead of excusing part of this behavior.

Well then it becomes sexual harassment then, but before then it's not.

 

[H.Protagonist]

I suppose we can take that approach which is actually reasonable and should be expected. I think it is similar to using racial slurs, while in some context it might not be offensive, it is generally a risky word to use so why not avoid it, I suppose it is a case of net negative as you say. That said, I am very much a liberal type person, a lot of my thinking tend to swing that way so its hard for me to understand the origin of catcalling or its generalisations. All I know is that it used to be a way to solicit or invite some form of sexual attraction by both male and females in the past....well to the present to as well

Pretty much. Not sure how else it could be done since apparently a vast number of guys can't read context or figure the numbers game is worth it no matter how many people they harass just in case 1/100 to responds positively. I find it quite frustrating that some guys cling to it, trying to eke out some kind of gray area because they don't want their desires, their 'options', to be restricted, minuscule as they are. That this urge to comment on random women (remember, this isn't some bar or club scenario which are actual places people go to be friendly and flirty) outweighs making women feel uncomfortable or threatened. It's pathetic.

 

[lightskintwin]

I'll just disagree that walking up to someone just randomly on the street without meeting them first and saying wanna date isn't weird.

It isn't weird. It literally happens all the time.

 

[pashmilla]

I'm going to preface this post by saying that I'm male, so I admit to not knowing what it's like to be cat-called near constantly. Because of that, I defer to girls to tell me how they feel about it. I've never cat-called someone, and because girls have communicated to me explicitly how it makes them feel, I never will.

However...I can't wrap my head around how it makes people feel uncomfortable. I mean, girls have said so, so it obviously is (and as a guy, I have no place to tell them otherwise), but it's still something I just can't see.

I've always been a fan of the Golden Rule. Do onto others as you want them to do onto you. And, well, I would absolutely love if I got cat-called when I went out.

Maybe it has something to do with the level of self-confidence? I've never had any confidence in my appearance, thought I was attractive, or had anyone tell me otherwise (besides my parents/grandparents/sister, but they're obligated to tell you so they don't really count). As such, if I went out and had a girl every 10 minutes yell at me some variant of "Hey sexy!", I can't see how I would take that as anything but a compliment and a confidence booster. That holy shit, someone actually does find me attractive. Would I feel differently if it actually happened? Possibly, but I don't see it right now.

I don't know, I'm just experiencing a huge disconnect between my own feelings on being cat-called and how girls say it makes them feel.

Here's how it goes.

Guy shouts something at me. Is he making fun of me? Is he serious? If he's serious, is he going to get butthurt if I ignore him and decide to escalate/follow/hurt me? There's no way of knowing, and there's no way for a woman in this situation to react because she has no idea if the guy is a psycho rapist or just an asshole.

 

[shiba5]

Do people here consider complimenting a stranger catcalling? Since if so that's kinda messed up. I mean i completely understand that it's not at all ok to yell sexual shit at randoms but personally as a man, i have always been super flattered be it a man or woman who comes up and compliments me out of the blue. Sure it was a bit weird when a gay guy came up to me and told me that i melted his heart and the ran away giggling but it was still flattering even if weird.

The reason why i'm asking this is because i was a bit confused at the "hey girl" thing in this thread.

There's a power dynamic involved. As a man, you probably aren't worried about a women escalating from cat-calling to hurling abuse or more. As a woman, if I tell a guy to "fuck off" or even ignore them, I have to worry about how they will react. In their mind, they paid me a compliment (even though it was unasked for) and now I owe them something in return. When I've ignored them, I usually get called a bitch or a cunt and I've been threatened when I've told them off.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

We're derailing this, because i feel we should be able to both agree that yelling at a random passer-by "YO, LEMME GET YOUR NUMBER!" does not constitute 'asking somebody out'.

Oh I agree, hence my earlier comment regarding how stupid such a demand would be. I'm mostly now responding to statements who somehow feel that initially asking someone out based on looks isn't okay.

 

[mxgt]

But sometimes they do want to be randomly hit on, so it's okay to take that chance, if I'm understanding these posts correctly

"It's okay because there's absolutely no repercussions for me if they say no!"

 

[excelsiorlef]

that's what the discussion is about right? but OP is stating all catcalling is sexual harassment which is up in the air.

i'm not sure it's the same reason i mentioned it.

it sounds like you agree with OP that all catcalling is sexual harassment.
*gasp* i'm not sure the sarcasm makes your point taken better
maybe i should've started with: "i have 5 friends that are girls, 1,2,4,5." before i posted.


excelsiorlef, thanks for asking. i think the comic humor is it depends on who's doing it that makes the advances feel unwanted. i was responding to a post that i agreed with that the thread felt like a lecture not a discussion and by some of the responses, i'm not sure if i disagree with myself yet.

This idea that it's only cat calling only ugly men aren't allowed to cat call is toxic, and that comic is about a white man escaping the world of masculine western women for the sensual feminine love of an Asian woman who knows her place... it is a toxic comic with a toxic message.

 

[LotusHD]

I'm going to preface this post by saying that I'm male, so I admit to not knowing what it's like to be cat-called near constantly. Because of that, I defer to girls to tell me how they feel about it. I've never cat-called someone, and because girls have communicated to me explicitly how it makes them feel, I never will.

However...I can't wrap my head around how it makes people feel uncomfortable. I mean, girls have said so, so it obviously is (and as a guy, I have no place to tell them otherwise), but it's still something I just can't see.

I've always been a fan of the Golden Rule. Do onto others as you want them to do onto you. And, well, I would absolutely love if I got cat-called when I went out.

Maybe it has something to do with the level of self-confidence? I've never had any confidence in my appearance, thought I was attractive, or had anyone tell me otherwise (besides my parents/grandparents/sister, but they're obligated to tell you so they don't really count). As such, if I went out and had a girl every 10 minutes yell at me some variant of "Hey sexy!", I can't see how I would take that as anything but a compliment and a confidence booster. That holy shit, someone actually does find me attractive. Would I feel differently if it actually happened? Possibly, but I don't see it right now.

I don't know, I'm just experiencing a huge disconnect between my own feelings on being cat-called and how girls say it makes them feel.

If it happened repeatedly for the remainder of your life, at random moments, regardless of what you're wearing or what you're doing, hell, regardless if you're very young or not, I'm sure you would feel differently.

 

[Aizen.S.Kennedy]

Now multiply that remark by a few hundred a year, thrown in with some more obscene remarks, women being followed, men getting threatening, and you see why some rather draw the line at the start, instead of excusing part of this behavior.


You have no facts, you have an opinion.



So, verbal street harassment has around 70% angered, 30% anxiety and 20% fear.

In class on a cell phone can't exactly do a through search right now. I was referring to the post I quoted. Those were facts. Do you deny that ?

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

This. I realize some of ya'll sheltered on Gaf, but this is the reality.

I thought the discussion is whether reality is fucked up, not whether it is what it is. Lots of women put up with this shit daily and get on withtheir lives because, what's the alternative? Like so many things, that doesn't make it right.

I will say it's 100% possible to engage strangers in a way that gets their attention while being non-threatening. Because yeah, people hook up all the time.

 

[excelsiorlef]

This is completely ridiculous. This is how humans interact. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this.

Humans interact by just asking random strangers walking to the grocery stores out on dates?

Maybe I'd get that if you said they strike up a conversation first, but the examples were talking about is literally just hey girl give me your number....

That's... not entirely what I said, but sure. No worries.

That's what I've been saying the entire time so

 

[Subpar Scrub]

I thought the discussion is whether reality is fucked up, not whether it is what it is.

He was responding to my post, which wasn't about cat-calling.

 

[ClosingADoor]

In class on a cell phone can't exactly do a through search right now. I was referring to the post I quoted. Those were facts. Do you deny that ?

We are talking about the earlier links like this? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/3636135/Why-women-like-being-wolf-whistled-at.html

No, that is an opinion piece, those are not facts. And it has absolutely no data to back up their claim, while there is data of women feeling threatened by street harassment.

I agree with you that its not a nice enviroment, and dont get me wrong, im not advocating for men to catcall. Like I said before, its stupid and no men should do it.
What I am saying is, a guy that loudly says something is not the same as a guy who follows and harrasses a woman. They both did something stupid, but I dont believe they should be viewed as the same asshole.

As for how women respond to the behavior, I am not asking for women to do anything specific, I dont have that right. I just dont really follow what the ideal would be for reall life situations. Catcall happens. If not ignoring, which again I see no data to support that ignoring it leads to more assaults, that I knwo of, what else can she do? What would, in your opinion, be the best response for this situation?

Yes, it happens. And that is the exact problem. Because it shouldn't happen. There shouldn't have to be a response, because the act itself shouldn't happen. That is the whole point.

 

[LionPride]

Yo, who the fuck these people askin randos on the street they ain't even made eye contact with out? I don't mean in clubs, or in a cafe. I mean out on the damn street.

Who askin someone at the grocery store out? Why you askin folks out when they exercising? Who does this shit

 

[Shake Appeal]

Woman walks down the street, A guy on the street sees her and says "Hey Beautiful", She ignores him and keeps walking. The guy goes back to what he was doing.

There is a very, very high chance that that woman has been previously harassed, fondled, grouped, abused, raped. There is a near-zero chance that she has never experienced unwanted sexual advances or been made to feel like her privacy and private sexuality aren't respected.

In that context, why in the fuck would you risk upsetting, hurting, or even scaring a total stranger on the grounds that she might, just might, find it flattering? What do you gain from this? Why wouldn't you indulge in just a moment's self-awareness to realize this behavior is needless, very likely unwanted, very possibly hurtful?

 

[Keri]

And yet sometimes it's not. Sometimes catcalling is meant to get a stranger's attention so they can holla at them.

You're arguing that it's OK to continue doing something, even though the vast majority of women will find it intimidating and harassing, because sometimes a rare woman will respond positively to it. That's so goddamn dehumanizing, because it suggests that the feelings of all the other women in the world, don't compare to your desire to really capitalize on that 1% chance you'll get a woman to sleep with you.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

but the examples were talking about is literally hey girl give me your number....

The example I provided was not "hey gurl give me your number". I reiterated that it wasn't that, and you're still saying it was. Why is this happening?

That's what I've been saying the entire time so

Well how about you respond to what I'm saying instead of quoting me and responding to yourself?

 

[lightskintwin]

I thought the discussion is whether reality is fucked up, not whether it is what it is. Lots of women put up with this shit daily and get on withtheir lives because, what's the alternative? Like so many things, that doesn't make it right.

In most cases, I agree, but not all. Guys that are disrespectful, creepy, too aggressive, etc... are the problems. Decent looking guy that yells something witty/charming to an attractive girl on the street, gets her attention, she laughs and then sees him and crosses the street to go talk to him and they chat for a minute and he gets her number is NOT the problem.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Well then it becomes sexual harassment then, but before then it's not.

But each one of the 100 is a different man.... so since no single man can know if she'll like it before he says it does that mean she just as to deal with it?

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

He was responding to my post, which wasn't about cat-calling.

Sorry, I got lost.

 

[acheron_xl]

Yo, who the fuck these people askin randos on the street they ain't even made eye contact with out? I don't mean in clubs, or in a cafe. I mean out on the damn street.

Who askin someone at the grocery store out? Why you askin folks out when they exercising? Who does this shit

Life is a rom com to some folks, apparently.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

Sorry, I got lost.

It's fine, thread is really picking up a pace now lol

 

[Boem]

You are in for a treat.

Ready to respond to any actual argument made against your claims or are you going to just silently troll and continue to play obtuse?

 

[Shake Appeal]

In most cases, I agree, but not all. Guys that are disrespectful, creepy, too aggressive, etc... are the problems. Decent looking guy that yells something witty/charming to an attractive girl on the street, gets her attention, she laughs and then sees him and crosses the street to go talk to him and they chat for a minute and he gets her number is NOT the problem.

No, guys who don't consider the context for their actions and think they are entitled to impose their desire on strangers if they think they're being "witty/charming" are the problem.

 

[LotusHD]

There is a very, very high chance that that woman has been previously harassed, fondled, grouped, abused, raped. There is a near-zero chance that she has never experienced unwanted sexual advances or been made to feel like her privacy and private sexuality aren't respected.

In that context, why in the fuck would you risk upsetting, hurting, or even scaring a total stranger on the grounds that she might, just might, find it flattering? What do you gain from this? Why wouldn't you indulge in just a moment's self-awareness to realize this behavior is needless, very likely unwanted, very possibly hurtful?

You're arguing that it's OK to continue doing something, even though the vast majority of women will find it intimidating and harassing, because sometimes a rare woman will respond positively to it. That's so goddamn dehumanizing, because it suggests that the feelings of all the other women in the world, don't compare to your desire to really capitalize on that 1% chance you'll get a woman to sleep with you.

Exactly my point lol

 

[ClosingADoor]

In most cases, I agree, but not all. Guys that are disrespectful, creepy, too aggressive, etc... are the problems. Decent looking guy that yells something witty/charming to an attractive girl on the street, gets her attention, she laughs and then sees him and crosses the street to go talk to him and they chat for a minute and he gets her number is NOT the problem.

Most people think they are more charming and witty then they actually are. So what that person might see as charming, the girl might see as creepy and aggressive. So maybe don't go around yelling to attractive girls on the street to get attention.

 

[manmcmanburger]

This thread is a trap.

 

[DarkKyo]

In most cases, I agree, but not all. Guys that are disrespectful, creepy, too aggressive, etc... are the problems. Decent looking guy that yells something witty/charming to an attractive girl on the street, gets her attention, she laughs and then sees him and crosses the street to go talk to him and they chat for a minute and he gets her number is NOT the problem.

Your awkwardly specific examples reek of desperation to make your case defensible.

 

[excelsiorlef]

The example I provided was not "hey gurl give me your number". I reiterated that it wasn't that, and you're still saying it was. Why is this happening?



Well how about you respond to what I'm saying instead of quoting me and responding to yourself?

So what's the script here then? Hey girl let's grab a coffee?

Like why? Why would you just go up to a complete stranger and think maybe they'll want to grab a drink with me based on absolutely noting but I think they're attractive...

Like are we talking about at least finding a way to talk to them for a bit first before asking them out or are you talking like directly approaching a random person on their way to who knows where and saying hey wanna grab a coffee?

 

[Two Words]

I'm a guy, so I'm just guessing at this, but I would guess the worst thing about catcalling is the public nature of it. You're being put on the spotlight in a sexual context. And in this public spotlight, you're typically expected to take the compliment even if you find it degrading.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

Only had one experience with this. Was at a gas station and there was a younger woman at the pump next to me. A dude pulled around in his van (good start) and asked her for a smile and her number. This guy's self awareness was clearly off because I noticed she looked pissed before he even drove over. The guy kept throwing creepy lines at her and she kept telling him off til he eventually left. It was super awkward, I'm not sure what the guy was expecting to happen but with that level of persistence it made me wonder if his method actually works for him sometimes.

 

[Sethista]

Yes, it happens. And that is the exact problem. Because it shouldn't happen. There shouldn't have to be a response, because the act itself shouldn't happen. That is the whole point.

Sure, I agree, but it does happen, so what im asking you is:

What do you think the best possible response can be for when it does happen

What is the best thing to do to see that it never happens again?

I would imagine the response for the latter is trying to educate men on how it feels for a woman to be catcalled, right? Like the new york video, things like that?

 

[LotusHD]

I'm a guy, so I'm just guessing at this, but I would guess the worst thing about catcalling is the public nature of it. You're being put on the spotlight in a sexual context. And in this public spotlight, you're typically expected to take the compliment even if you find it degrading.

If anything, it'd probably be more intimidating if someone did it to you when you're isolated.