Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
This douche is the reason my mom won’t be able to afford rent. No one cares what party he belongs to. He’s destroying people’s lives.
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Tesla sales tank in Europe as stock drops 40% in a month
- Thread starter Klosshufvud
- Start date
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
EVs also usually have huge depreciation values. Good luck getting a good price selling it. A lot of EV owners will feel it on the back end when it's time to sell their car.
AJUMP23
Parody of actual AJUMP23
What did he do to your moms rent? Elon I assume. Did she get caught in the cuts?
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Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
Social security isn’t a Ponzi scheme.
The rapidity of the hiring freezes is definitely something they can be critizied for. I suspect they know they only have 20 months or so to enact real change (and have [hopefully] positive results to show) so they gotta hurry, but it is negatively impacting folks in ways they could have mitigated by a slightly more gradual implementation.
Plus I think they know the MSM and the "machine" are gonna attack them relentlessly no matter how they go about this, so why not just pull the rotten teeth as fast as possible? The faster the money runs out of the swamp the faster it starts to dry out and normalcy returns.
MrTroubleMaker
Member
AJUMP23
Parody of actual AJUMP23
I haven't seen where people are not getting their SS. My dad is getting his.
SS is a pretty bad program. WE need some way to make it where you pay in and get back what you pay in and not where people that need it now are not taking from people paying in now. SS creates a class of citizens wholly dependent on the government for everything. Which isn't good. It would be great to ween people off the government need. They can build private wealth. But your mom paid in and should get the benefit.
It totally is, if you consider a ponzi scheme a system that requires constant addiito0nal funding in order to fulfill its commitments to the ones who got in earlier. Most will never pay in enough to cover what they collect, thus the system requires an ever widening pool of "involuntary investors" to keep it working. It's pretty damn close to a ponzi scheme.
Will You Ever Recoup What You Paid into Social Security? - Briaud
Have you ever said or heard someone say, “I’ll never get the money back that I paid into Social Security!”? Or, “I wonder how many years it will take me to
www.briaud.com
But it's also sort of a forced retirement system that helps people who don't have the capability to help themselves (for whatever reason) so I'm willing to allow it within reason just to keep old folk off the streets.
The real question is do they walk back the age again? 'Retiring" at 65 but living to 85+ is a tough system to collect for just through a system like SS.
It’s a backup plan to preserve the dignity of our seniors for those who weren’t able to build a seven figure 401k. The money could be managed better but it’s still one of the best systems in the developed world in terms of outcome.
Punished Miku
Human Rights Subscription Service
Income inequality is so extreme that it is underfunding it. If you lift the cap on earnings taxable for SS it fixes the problem. People are living longer, but also such a giant portion of the total economic activity in the country is concentrated in such an extreme small few people that the portion of taxable income for this program decreased relative to what it used to be.It totally is, if you consider a ponzi scheme a system that requires constant addiito0nal funding in order to fulfill its commitments to the ones who got in earlier. Most will never pay in enough to cover what they collect, thus the system requires an ever widening pool of "involuntary investors" to keep it working. It's pretty damn close to a ponzi scheme.
Will You Ever Recoup What You Paid into Social Security? - Briaud
Have you ever said or heard someone say, “I’ll never get the money back that I paid into Social Security!”? Or, “I wonder how many years it will take me to
But it's also sort of a forced retirement system that helps people who don't have the capability to help themselves (for whatever reason) so I'm willing to allow it within reason just to keep old folk off the streets.
The real question is do they walk back the age again? 'Retiring" at 65 but living to 85+ is a tough system to collect for just through a system like SS.
I think people are open to intelligent tweaks to the system to help strengthen it, and reinforce it. There have been attempts to come up with other good things as well. I can't remember but I think under Biden they either started or proposed mandatory 401k enrollment. A lot of people are too poor to contribute, and a lot more have poor financial literacy and don't understand the process. If they are enrolled early without thinking about it, it would help a ton. Even then, that would take 60 years to really kick in but it's a plan.
Trashing the program is not a great plan and people know what the motive is.
AJUMP23
Parody of actual AJUMP23
I don't think it is managed well at all, but the outcome is good. People who paid into the system are taken care of by people who are currently paying into it. The money or a portion could have been invested in long term indexes or other types of funds and individuals could have had returns on what they put in.
It is tough to talk politics online, and why you
EviLore
banned it from the forum because everything about it is personal with people. It just divides people even when they agree about most things. Online it destroys relationships. Best to avoid it. In person there can be real understanding and empathy.
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Punished Miku
Human Rights Subscription Service
I'm always surprised by people being so against SS. If this AI future comes to pass, we're all going to be getting UBI much earlier than SS. We will literally have to to keep people alive if robots and automation can handle most jobs. It would have to just be collected and redistributed for people to survive. I think even Elon said that relatively recently, so figure that one out. If there's any gap in SS funding 40 years from now, it could be made up from contributions from a robot workforce.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
A lot of US services could be funded much better if the US increased taxes. Among all the well off countries, the US has among the lowest taxes whether it's income tax, good/services state tax, capital gains tax and among a small number of countries in the world that allow someone to deduct mortgage interest off their income tax.
There's a lot of money out there.
But the US view is more of low tax country where it's up to people to control their own destiny and savings.
There's a lot of money out there.
But the US view is more of low tax country where it's up to people to control their own destiny and savings.
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Toons
Member
So does that apply to this as well? When Elon was still liberal and bkasting about how inclusive his company was?
AJUMP23
Parody of actual AJUMP23
So does that apply to this as well? When Elon was still liberal and bkasting about how inclusive his company was?
I bet he would tell you his company is still inclusive. Many people probably took exception with this.
Forsete
Gold Member
Oh my fucking god... what have you DONE?
www.theguardian.com
Wait.. wait, hold on I am hearing marching music, help..
‘Germany is back’: Merz secures Greens’ support for defence spend boost
Backing of Greens is tantamount to approval of chancellor-in-waiting’s proposal to relax debt brake
www.theguardian.com
Wait.. wait, hold on I am hearing marching music, help..
P:axMagellanic
Member
They're seriously going after your National Insurance?
There's something incredibly dysgenic about the idea that a human beings only contribution to society is what they have to offer 'economically'. It's not as if there's a whole lifetime of experiences there that is invaluable to all of us when we're growing up.
There's something incredibly dysgenic about the idea that a human beings only contribution to society is what they have to offer 'economically'. It's not as if there's a whole lifetime of experiences there that is invaluable to all of us when we're growing up.
The world tech/medicine is where it's at because of the freedom offered by US.
Europe innovation barely has a pulse.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
If the rich and ultra wealthy corps would contribute more in taxes, then SS wouldn't "dry up" in any year. But no. Gotta protect the rich guys by giving them tax breaks.
ProtoByte
Weeb Underling
I think it's a false premise to suggest that you want "more" economic activity for its own sake. That's how you get the inflation we've experienced over the last 5 years. Especially when it's really just government contracts and consooming. See: Greece.
But even then, you'd be wrong: The wealthy minority doesn't just buy, it also invests. Provided you have a tax code and regulatory environment that isn't too onerous.
The idea that soaking up productive money into a centralized body (the government) that has no incentive to allocate that money efficiently or effectively is a better way of going about things is ridiculous, and has been proven wrong multiple times. It's just another version of "trickle down economics" that appeases the envious and lazy.
I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any taxation or even redistribution for people who really need it: But you're way overestimating the number of people that legitimately do.
Lol. Lmao even
I'm not surprised that you're under this impression, despite your insinuated claim of "looking at the data".
America’s Redistributive Welfare State
As part of a recent study on income disparities, Thomas Blanchet, Lucas Chancel, and Amory Gethin of the World Inequality Lab at the Paris School of Economics found that the United States “stands out as the country that redistributes the greatest fraction of national income to the bottom 50...
www.city-journal.org
Summary of the Latest Federal Income Tax Data, 2023 Update
The latest IRS data shows that the U.S. federal individual income tax continued to be progressive, borne primarily by the highest income earners.
taxfoundation.org
a'la mode
Member
Elon Musk's Tesla reportedly halts Cybertruck deliveries as owners complain of metal sides falling off
It comes amid numerous instances of build quality issues with the Cybertruck and marks the latest problem plaguing the once promising vehicle.
Ass of Can Whooping
Gold Member
Lol. Lmao even
I'm not surprised that you're under this impression, despite your insinuated claim of "looking at the data".
America’s Redistributive Welfare State
As part of a recent study on income disparities, Thomas Blanchet, Lucas Chancel, and Amory Gethin of the World Inequality Lab at the Paris School of Economics found that the United States “stands out as the country that redistributes the greatest fraction of national income to the bottom 50...
How much of that so called redistribution comes from your massively inflated cost of healthcare? Which ends up back in the hands of the wealthiest?
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Zathalus
Member
Under that tough stainless steel "space-grade" exterior is just a cuddly little disaster made out of aluminum and glue. Lipstick on a pig indeed.Elon Musk's Tesla reportedly halts Cybertruck deliveries as owners complain of metal sides falling off
It comes amid numerous instances of build quality issues with the Cybertruck and marks the latest problem plaguing the once promising vehicle.fortune.com
Punished Miku
Human Rights Subscription Service
On Monday when I'm at a keyboard and getting paid, I can look into responding to this in more detail. But it really just references what I'm talking about. Look at a graph for income inequality since 1975. Its way more than a 2% gain like you're claiming here and everyone knows it. We will have our first trillionaire soon if we don't put the brakes on this. We could have the top 1% paying 100% of all taxes and it would just mean that everyone else is too poor to meaningfully contribute. If income is spread a bit more evenly, people can pay more into taxes. Your point about investing is fine but they have plenty to invest already. It definitely generates economic activity if normal people aren't dying and have money to buy things. Thats where basically all small business comes from.I think it's a false premise to suggest that you want "more" economic activity for its own sake. That's how you get the inflation we've experienced over the last 5 years. Especially when it's really just government contracts and consooming. See: Greece.
But even then, you'd be wrong: The wealthy minority doesn't just buy, it also invests. Provided you have a tax code and regulatory environment that isn't too onerous.
The idea that soaking up productive money into a centralized body (the government) that has no incentive to allocate that money efficiently or effectively is a better way of going about things is ridiculous, and has been proven wrong multiple times. It's just another version of "trickle down economics" that appeases the envious and lazy.
I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any taxation or even redistribution for people who really need it: But you're way overestimating the number of people that legitimately do.
Lol. Lmao even
I'm not surprised that you're under this impression, despite your insinuated claim of "looking at the data".
America’s Redistributive Welfare State
As part of a recent study on income disparities, Thomas Blanchet, Lucas Chancel, and Amory Gethin of the World Inequality Lab at the Paris School of Economics found that the United States “stands out as the country that redistributes the greatest fraction of national income to the bottom 50...
Summary of the Latest Federal Income Tax Data, 2023 Update
The latest IRS data shows that the U.S. federal individual income tax continued to be progressive, borne primarily by the highest income earners.
Ass of Can Whooping
Gold Member
Every economist agrees. And when authoritarians unilaterally decide economic policy elsewhere in the world it tends to be disastrous.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
You must not have seen the recent town halls filled with right wing constituents LAMBASTING their Republican leaders for screwing them over in this administration... How they've rolled over for Trump and Musk...
It is 100% not performative.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
XXL
Member
Are these the same people who said Hunter Bidens laptop was Russian misinformation?
Or is the people who said BLM riots were peaceful?
Or is it the people who said Covid didn't come from a lab in China?
Or is it the people who provided the Steele dosier?
Or is it the people who said Trumps 1st term would destroy everything?
Or is the same people who said Biden wasn't in cognitive decline?
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LegendOfKage
Member
Regarding the idea of cutting medicare, today Musk retweeted this:
And here's a slightly longer version of the same clips:
I think he's making a similar argument for social security. I'll also say that I think Trump fully understands that if he cuts social security in a way that hurts actual voters, his party won't win another election for years if not decades.
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Auto_aim1
MeisaMcCaffrey
Not always true. Tariffs literally saved the American garlic industry in the 90s. Most of it is grown in California. China was selling garlic for less than fair value market price and had captured more than 50% share of the American garlic market.
The developing countries aren't stupid to put tariffs and protect their vulnerable sectors. A single megacorp like Walmart can become a monopoly and easily destroy local competition in developing to poor countries if there were no tariffs and entry barriers.
Now the problem in America is that manufacturing has mostly been decimated and it's basically a services economy. Putting tariffs now means there's no local alternative for most things and Americans will be forced to buy goods at high prices. The wages are pretty high too so the prices of local goods won't necessarily be cheaper compared to imported China/Vietnam goods etc.
America is very lucky to have neighbours like Canada/Mexico and European allies. So they have a system in place that has been working quite well for a long time. I mean, America's GDP is $28trillion so it's not as bad as Trump makes it out to be.
XXL
Member
Economists all seemed to agree that Trump in 2016 would be disastrous for the economy and trigger a recession.
Wall Street economists: Trump presidency could trigger recession - Marketplace
Citigroup has released its latest election forecast.
www.marketplace.org
But that's not what happened.
Auto_aim1
MeisaMcCaffrey
Trump had a reworked NAFTA called USMCA in place so he didn't fuck with Canada/Mexico like he is doing now. He left Europe alone in his first term. He was mostly distracted by the Russian collusion stuff. His tax cuts added to the national debt and Covid recovery meant that fed had to lower interest rates and do QE which along with tax cuts increased inflation greatly. The problem is that there is no one to stop him now and he can screw up the economy badly. Hope common sense prevails and he leaves allies alone.Economists all seemed to agree that Trump in 2016 would be disastrous for the economy and trigger a recession.
Wall Street economists: Trump presidency could trigger recession - Marketplace
Citigroup has released its latest election forecast.
But that's not what happened.
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XXL
Member
Sure.
Did his first term destroy the economy and trigger a recession?
We know, we know.
“Protectionist trade policies stifle growth” is not a principle economists have decided on arbitrarily to attack Trump.Economists all seemed to agree that Trump in 2016 would be disastrous for the economy and trigger a recession.
Wall Street economists: Trump presidency could trigger recession - Marketplace
Citigroup has released its latest election forecast.
But that's not what happened.
Punished Miku
Human Rights Subscription Service
Completely out of context clips with no specific details at all. If Musk thinks they have points of agreement he should go to Congress and publicly lay it all out in an advisory capacity only. He literally already said publicly he wants to eliminate those programs.
As I said earlier in the thread, waste / fraud / abuse is literally meaningless. Which specific things is he cutting? Waste is literally a subjective opinion.
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XXL
Member
That's fine.
But the US isn't the same as everyone else economically, so just making sweeping claims like that isn't apples to apples in comparison to the rest of the world.
That's why the US is called the "Global Engine of the World"
From Google
"Largest Economy:
The US consistently holds the title of the world's largest economy by nominal GDP, meaning the total value of goods and services produced within its borders.
Global Growth Driver:
The US economy's strength has a significant impact on global growth. Strong consumer spending and business investment in the US can boost demand for goods and services from other countries.
Leading Trader:
The US is also a leading global trader, and its open markets have historically played a role in expanding trade and global prosperity.
IMF Outlook:
The International Monetary Fund (IMF) has highlighted the US as a central driver of global economic growth, particularly in 2024 and 2025, with strong consumer spending as a key factor.
Resilience:
Despite global economic challenges, the US economy has shown resilience, with the IMF predicting it will expand at a faster rate than other major developed countries.
GDP:
The US GDP is worth over a quarter of global output in nominal GDP terms.
Consumer Market:
The US has the world's largest consumer market.
Historical Context:
The US has been the world's largest national economy in terms of GDP since around 1890."
The US isn't like everyone else.
They produce and consume the most goods/services.
This isn't even taking into account the amount of "Aid" they send around the globe annually.
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a'la mode
Member
Books? Hissssss I get all my economy lessons from X, the everything app!
Any time banks, analysts, or such say something like this - old rules don't apply, this is a new paradigm, etc - you should increase your financial security defcon level. The last time led to the subprime crisis.
I get all my economy lessons from X, the everything app!Any time banks, analysts, or such say something like this - old rules don't apply, this is a new paradigm, etc - you should increase your financial security defcon level. The last time led to the subprime crisis.
XXL
Member
ChorizoPicozo
Member
The Cybertruck was a trainwreck, it's was a disaster
XXL
Member
I own almost every book Thomas Sowell has written and I don't even have an X account.Books? Hissssss
Wtf are you on about?
Punished Miku
Human Rights Subscription Service
You just make up history to suite you. No one thought Trump was going to crash the economy in his 1st term. He was largely elected on his image as a successful businessman and the economy was his strongest issue in polls right up until his 2nd term began.
Is he going to crash the economy this time? No one knows. He changes his policy every other day. Investors and businessmen can't reliably invest because things are so unpredictable. Is he keeping tariffs or not? No one knows. Flip a coin. He is almost surely going to start a recession if the trends from his 1st 50 days continue.
Rapidly increasing unemployment is likely from government firings and decreasing consumer demand from fear and uncertainty coupled with unpredictable price increases from tariffs on essential goods, from unpredictable and extreme immigration policy. Nebraska is apparently about to go bankrupt as a state because they relied on 60% immigrant farm labor. They're already gone. Food prices are likely to be heavily impacted, farms shuttered and bought for pennies by large corporations. Restaurant industry is also heavily impacted, meat packing and more. Lumbar tariffs are going to hurt house costs immediately.
Long term economic outlook will be slowed for sure. He's basically destroying the department of education overnight which is a large part of how most normal people can get to a college with FAFSA assistance and Pell Grants. Means less skilled workforce in the next 20 years. Less research funded. Less skilled immigrants coming to our colleges. Less medical and research advancement. He killed the Chips Act which was going to subsidize and encourage chip manufacturing on US soil instead of Taiwan. No one knows why he did that but its gone. AI and crypto companies have paid him off and have free reign to do whatever they want now. He's destroyed the EPA and any environmental regulations he didn't like overnight so none of our cars will have a prayer to sell outside the US. We will continue to see massive multi billion dollar damage from increased severity natural disasters. He wants to destroy FEMA as well so most of these communities won't rebuild effectively or at all. But he might invade Greenland so Peter Thiel and the rest of the oligarchs have a private retreat to ride out the worsening climate. He lost over 200,000 manufacturing jobs in his first term and he's probably going to get close to that in his 1st year just from cut government jobs.
He really didn't have any major economic policy in his first term other than tax cuts that massively added to the deficit, increased income inequality and 2 COVID stimulus checks that I thought were necessary and well done. Thats really it.
Can you explain any specific things he's doing that are going to benefit us economically? Diplomatically he's doing all he can to convince every ally we used to have to sign a more comprehensive trade deal with China instead and boycott us for travel, tourism and all products.
Also likely to weaken or destroy the Affordable Care Act, Medicaid and Medicare meaning more medical debt and medical bankruptcy and a sicker workforce. All spending drained from consumers getting harvested by predatory insurance will also massively weaken the economy and consumer confidence. Its the #1 cause of bankruptcy already before his cuts.
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It is universally understood across the political spectrum, other than “Rule of Trump” Conservatives, that this policy of tariffs will damage the US economy and have ripple effects on all the intertwined economies. There will be fewer jobs, less growth, less US influence, and more uncertainty that subsequent administrations will have to repair.
A country cannot wage economic war or desire annexation of neighbouring nations and think it’s going to be business as usual or in Americas favour going forward.
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