Olengie
Member
99 percent sure.
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Limited Run Games - Putting digital games into your hands
- Thread starter dallow_bg
- Start date
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99 percent sure.
Olengie
Member
There was a tweet made by LRG a while back.
Also the fact it is coming on Father's Day.
test_account
XP-39C²
Got my PS4 copy of Futuridium today. Loose disc, but no damage to the box. No problem with custsoms either (even if they had put the original value on the package, i wouldnt have had any problem regardless though).
LimitedRunGames
Member
We can't do anything about custom charges, those are policies your countries have that we have to obey. :'( If you are in one that has high fees please let me know what other places you order from do.
mthodmn101
Banned
They lie.
LimitedRunGames
Member
Well we tried that route and they found out. Then they assigned even higher values to the packages and higher fees. :/
YianGaruga
Banned
Wasn't this just that issue in france? That's the first time I've ever seen that happening tbh. And all other games didn't have that problem before.
Packages with description "video game" and value $15 have never been intercepted at customs for me. Yours were very visible due to the black envelope and the detailed description, as well as the unrealistically low value. My guess is that that raised some flags and they held the entire shipment.
I mean much bigger shops like VGP and Play Asia pretty much ship every order undervalued, and nothing ever happens, at least to my knowledge.
It's tax evasion & illegal. Just pay the fucking taxes/customs fees.
YianGaruga
Banned
Feel free to call the police
I worked in Sweden for a short while and I had to pay ~$15 extra + local taxes of 20 or so % of the total value when I imported something. Combine this with $15 shipping and a $30 LRG game becomes ~$70. It's a significant difference and enough to turn people off from ordering. Just the customs fees and local taxes is almost the same cost as the game itself.
Just putting the example here to show that it is a big deal and a lot of money.
Just putting the example here to show that it is a big deal and a lot of money.
As LRG grows, I'd suggest it stop misreporting values as soon as possible.
It's not a good idea, it's not sustainable, and it could backfire. I understand the frustration of people on countries with protectionist tariffs, but it's their country's policy that needs to be changed.
It's not a good idea, it's not sustainable, and it could backfire. I understand the frustration of people on countries with protectionist tariffs, but it's their country's policy that needs to be changed.
Finale Fireworker
Member
This is true. It's not something LRG can actually control. Asking a growing business to lie or misrepresent packages so consumers can get their goods cheaper isn't right. International shipping is the cost of ordering internationally. That's up to the consumer to mitigate, not the business.
I know that people might chime in and say this is anticonsumer, but it's not. It's just the way it is. I absolutely sympathize with people who have to pay an additional $15 for shipping. That sucks so much. But surely you can recognize that this isn't on LRG and it's not fair to ask a growing business to lie about their packages.
Especially when LRG faces an uphill battle for legitimacy to begin with, which is required to lure more developers to actually work with them.
How is it not sustainable? PA have been doing it for years at this point.
LimitedRunGames
Member
Thanks for the support!
We want and will try to do everything we can, but a line may of been drawn with the whole France issue... We may not be able to cross that again. But as always, we are looking into ways to help our customers first and foremost.
Finale Fireworker
Member
What happens if they get caught?
I've sold a lot of things internationally on eBay and have had my packages held up at customs every time I've under-reported. I don't do it anymore because I got hit six different times with charges and fees for misrepresenting international mail.
Sometimes I forget you guys are actually in this thread and answer your own customer service complaints very diligently. I didn't mean to speak for you guys, I hope I didn't overstep.
You have been an extremely consumer-oriented business from your inception and I think there's immense honor in that.
Well......I'm sorry but undervalueing the packages is absolutely essential to me. The prices for the games themselves are awesome....15$ shipping to Germany, not so much, bur oh well....it's 40 total and that's fine. But adding another 20% on top.....this would make the games TOO expensive in total to quite a few people from overseas, I'd wager.
Especially looking at the sheer number of nice-looking upcomimg releases.
So please, keep writing low values on the forms.
Wasn't there a rumor that customs fees would be pre-paid somehow from now on? Or am I misrembering?
Especially looking at the sheer number of nice-looking upcomimg releases.
So please, keep writing low values on the forms.
Wasn't there a rumor that customs fees would be pre-paid somehow from now on? Or am I misrembering?
Being headquartered in Hong Kong versus the us may cause some differences. The us has some laws about lying on packages.
LimitedRunGames
Member
It's pre-paid for some countries others would cost as much as the game itself. The only other thing we can do is have you pay for the duties + shipping upfront as a shipping cost that is unique to each country.
Pellegri Testament
Member
That doesn't exactly make things better just because a handful of known import sites have done it for years. They also likely have that shit down to a science so they know what they can and can't get away with. Asking LRG to break the law like it's nothing is pretty easy to say until they get something like what happened with France again and they just decide it's not worth dealing with again, stopping any orders sent to those countries anymore. I'm sure some people would probably bitch at them if it happened and they could no longer get anymore games, instead of wrapping their head around the idea of the law maybe needing to be followed if you want a business for long.
There's also different laws when it comes to China (PlayAsia) and VGPlus (Canada), where as the US is likely more strict when it comes to following them.
On Amazon.com and Ebay I pay the customs fees in front. They report the correct value and I pay the import fees which are actually due. When I order something above 22 euro (excluding shipping) and this is not done, it will also receive charges by the carrier, which are always at least 18 euro plus the import duty. They call it handling fees. It would be great if you would be able to charge and pay the import tax upfront. This really makes ordering very transparant.
This is acutally the first I've heard of someone, person or company, actually getting into trouble for undervalueing. Sure it's illegal but I always figured the only one who MIGHT get hit would be the recipient. That's what I've experienced, at least.
Anyway....it would certainly help to not mark shipments as Gift. That accomplishes nothing really....just a low value for a properly purchased item gives us the best odds with customs. At least in Germany. Gift declarations always make'em suspicious....
Oh, and one more thing: If it's just the correct, high value on the form but no Paypal receipt or invoice is included on the outside of the envelope, customs WILL make us drive long distances to pick that stuff up and bring them all documentation. That wouldn't work through the post offices, sadly. So it would mean LOTS of hassle in addition to the costs.
Anyway....it would certainly help to not mark shipments as Gift. That accomplishes nothing really....just a low value for a properly purchased item gives us the best odds with customs. At least in Germany. Gift declarations always make'em suspicious....
Oh, and one more thing: If it's just the correct, high value on the form but no Paypal receipt or invoice is included on the outside of the envelope, customs WILL make us drive long distances to pick that stuff up and bring them all documentation. That wouldn't work through the post offices, sadly. So it would mean LOTS of hassle in addition to the costs.
My opinion, that's all.
I am sure it's feasible to skirt that line, as other companies have done in the past -- but as an investor, I would ask questions regarding how they ship products, and I would find it a deal breaker if their answer involved misreporting values.
Again, just my opinion. It's not an easy situation at all, but it is the reality of protectionism.
Finale Fireworker
Member
Would slightly raising the store price for domestic buyers and slightly lowering the store price for international orders work?
Even if it's just a $5 offset, that's something. We're kind of all in this together and these are limited edition collectibles. I wouldn't mind paying a little more if it helped everyone pay closer to the same price.
Or maybe a Patreon that people can give to freely that can help offset lower costs for international buyers.
Even if it's just a $5 offset, that's something. We're kind of all in this together and these are limited edition collectibles. I wouldn't mind paying a little more if it helped everyone pay closer to the same price.
Or maybe a Patreon that people can give to freely that can help offset lower costs for international buyers.
NormalFish
Banned
Always the best advice.
LimitedRunGames
Member
We haven't personally got into trouble, but this has caused a huge headache for us. You are just one person with an issue, but when you combine and email us, oh boy...
But that doesn't mean we are upset at our customers! We are just as upset as you are. The other issue with the whole undervaluing our items is our fulfillment center wasn't comfortable with it. A lot of them weren't and the few that might be aren't good choices based on their history. So it's kind of at a stalemate right now.
Josh and Douglas don't want to ship everything out themselves, it takes way to much time away from them when they could be talking with developers.
An idea is to try and mark them as something generic like Video Game and maybe put a smaller value. But only something that might seem reasonable like $15-$20. Or we may pull countries with huge taxes. We originally only thought it was South America, but it sounds like Europe has a few that are tough on taxes too.
But like everyone has said, at the end of the day we can't break the law or be held accountable for another countries tax rates on imports. We will try and do right by our customers and get our games as in many hands as possible but not at the risk of going out of business or paying legal fees for trying to skirt by the law. Getting shut down isn't going to help us keep physical alive.
But that doesn't mean we are upset at our customers! We are just as upset as you are. The other issue with the whole undervaluing our items is our fulfillment center wasn't comfortable with it. A lot of them weren't and the few that might be aren't good choices based on their history. So it's kind of at a stalemate right now.
Josh and Douglas don't want to ship everything out themselves, it takes way to much time away from them when they could be talking with developers.
An idea is to try and mark them as something generic like Video Game and maybe put a smaller value. But only something that might seem reasonable like $15-$20. Or we may pull countries with huge taxes. We originally only thought it was South America, but it sounds like Europe has a few that are tough on taxes too.
But like everyone has said, at the end of the day we can't break the law or be held accountable for another countries tax rates on imports. We will try and do right by our customers and get our games as in many hands as possible but not at the risk of going out of business or paying legal fees for trying to skirt by the law. Getting shut down isn't going to help us keep physical alive.
Mr_Kuschels
Member
I dont understand all those complaints about taxes and custom fees. That's just how it is and if I was part of the LRG team I wouldn't risk messing with the local laws/rules.
One way to solve this is by just not selling the games to other countries outside the US, but I'm pretty sure that's also not what the ones affected want.
So either life with the risk of having to pay more or dont bother ordering from them. I'm sure LRG doesn't have any problems selling their stock within the US.
One way to solve this is by just not selling the games to other countries outside the US, but I'm pretty sure that's also not what the ones affected want.
So either life with the risk of having to pay more or dont bother ordering from them. I'm sure LRG doesn't have any problems selling their stock within the US.
Please don't do that, just put a generic warning like "additional custom charges and taxes may have to be payed by customers. Those are NOT included in the price paid to LRG" on every order page and be done with it.
I hate having to pay those charges/taxes, but it's just part of the deal when ordering games from outside Europe. A friend of mine used to work as a customs agent in Germany. She told me that about 10% of packages are held for inspection pretty much randomly. For those 10%, weight, the declared value, the description of the contents as well as the country of origin are the deciding factors whether they hold onto the package or not. If your package is being held, you have to show them a receipt and pay taxes. It used to be a lot worse only a few years ago, before they raised the minimum value that triggers additional custom charges.
Again, it sucks but it's also the law. At least Europeans benefit from the current exchange rate.
I feel the same as you. LRG should 'follow the rules' and each customer should decide for themselves if it's worth it. Be happy that they sell internationally, this is why a lot of places don't. Holding up a few examples of shops that do, neither of which are based in the U.S. is kind of an apples/oranges thing.
If you don't want to play the customs charges, don't order, it's not like they're not going to sell anyway.
This honestly sounds like the arguments my kids make. They are 10, and their friends have apparently been doing whatever they want for years.
LRG is foolish if they keep up trying to assist customers with dodging customs fees and taxes. They don't have deep pockets, so it's silly to flirt with something that can eventually endanger what they're trying to do, big picture wise. People want their merchandise handled and shipped by a reputable fulfillment center, and reputable ones won't do this. Even if you don't get slapped with some serious financial repercussions, you have to beef up your staff to deal with all the customs interactions. Asking LRG to continue shipping their own goods doesn't make sense either, not when they should be working with publishers.
The whole thing sucks, but it certainly isn't LRG's fault.
Emperor Bohe
Member
still haven't received the oddworld that I ordered on May 3rd. how worried should I be? I live in Toronto.
NoFaceNico
Member
I don't see it as a big issue. I doubt LRG is on anyone's radar. Those who care don't know and those who know don't care.
Just be happy that they try to help however possible, even if it's "misreporting" the value of a few scraps of plastic, poly-carbonate and paper produced in a limited quantity. If you get caught and have to pay the real value *gasp! The horror!!* then just pay up.
Just be happy that they try to help however possible, even if it's "misreporting" the value of a few scraps of plastic, poly-carbonate and paper produced in a limited quantity. If you get caught and have to pay the real value *gasp! The horror!!* then just pay up.
Pellegri Testament
Member
I've bought (US) multiple $40+ games from them and each one is marked as $10.
otaku-asia
Member
I'd also recommend to be careful about undervaluing shipments and publicly speaking about it (on forums, twitter, etc.). Eventually it is tax evasion and fraud and customs aren't totally dumb. You may get away with it a few times, but is it really worth it jeopardizing your business?
They don't. At least not what they sent me.
Huh....funny how things turned around fast in here. First it's "yeah, this sure is unpleasent","poor international GAFfers", and even that extremely generous if unrealistic suggestion to charge domestic buyers more to offset the values....and suddenly it's "if you don't like it, don't buy it", "do you have to sell to dirty non-US citizens?" and so on.
Can't we just leave things as they were? Well, probably not. Shame. :-/
test_account
XP-39C²
20% of 40 isnt really that much though. Thats just 8 in addition. The real kicker is the customs handling fee (i assume Germany also has that).
It was a question, not an argument. Like some others in this thread, I'd not heard of a company being penalised for undervaluing before, regardless of their location- recipients, certainly.
It just seemed odd to make the (as someone else said) apples to oranges comparison. Why can the much larger Asian company get away with the shady practice, when the little 2 man startup can't? Sorry to be snarky, was funny when the thought bounced thru my head.
Having been snarled into customs disputes in France a couple of times myself, I can understand why LRG can't maintain this even if there weren't any direct financial penalties. I know several people in my hobbies that simply will no longer ship anything to France, and there are a few other countries that are similar. Some of them are high maintenance even when you don't try to skirt end user taxes.
Edit after reading some above: Yes, the customs handling fee is one of the most evil inventions ever. UPS once decided that my incoming arcade kit wasn't a video game, but actually was Christmas lights. They taxed me a massive amount for these, then tacked on a HUGE "handling fee" for taking the time to completely mess up my shipment. It was coded correctly and carried a zero tariff, and required zero UPS effort until they jacked it up.
Pellegri Testament
Member
Because laws and how they work are different depending on country. One is situated in the US, while the other is in China. One has also been in business for far longer than the other and likely knows how to skirt around these issues, as I'm sure PA dealt with these same problems when they were getting started. Asking LRG to talk to these other companies isn't exactly going to do anything either, when I'm sure how they break the law and get away with it, isn't really something they would want to talk about.
I don't think we do. Maybe with certain shipping services, but I only ever had to pay the 19% import tax on the stuff I imported (and I've been at the customs office quite often). You do pay additional customs fees if the item value exceeds 150€, but that's usually not a problem when it comes to video games.
Noisepurge
Member
For EU shipping, look into a warehouse reshipping deals some companies have. They send the orders to belgium or france and it redirects them to the customer. Effectively being an EU shipment so no additional taxes or customs charge.
test_account
XP-39C²
Really? In that case, its pretty nice, in my opinion. 19% alone doesnt really make that much of a difference on the relatively low value items. Where i live its like €13 in handling fees (or €18 if DHL handles it) + 25% of the value plus shipping if it exceed the import limit.
Sure, if it's just the 19% on top....that would probably be acceptable to most people, although it's nicer without, of course.
But you have to get there yourself. That's an 80 kilometer drive for me. Or you pay them 28,50 in addition to those 19% to deliver it to your home...so that's clearly not an option.
Pre-paying would be okay but having to travel to the customs offices for every single game because it was marked correctly but without a real invoice...that would be pretty annoying.
That EU warehouse-thingy would be the best option if it's a possibility. I know YesAsia's been doing that for years, which is real nice.
This... or you could just start declaring the item's actual worth. Pretty simple. You guys are a new company. You don't need the hassle of some one reporting you to some official gov't body for something so trivial. Don't risk it anything, man. You did a huge favour for everyone already.
Yeah, it's a real shame too. I don't understand people's logic and always wanting to cheat the system. Hell, you make international purchases from any other store you expect to pay customs don't you? Shouldn't it be the same with LRG? They're a business too. It's not LRG's fault that your country has strict tax and custom laws.
YianGaruga
Banned
I think people are really overreacting, but whatever. No one is getting into trouble over this. Many companies do it, and those are the ones I buy from. If LRG doesn't want to do it for whatever reason, I'll have to buy less. But people from the US that don't have to deal with any of that garbage and aren't affected either way coming here and playing the morality police is pretty shitty. You'd be pretty pissed if you had pay 2x the price other people had to pay as well.
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