LOST 06.17/18/18.5: "The End" (Everything Else Was Just Progress)
- Thread starter BenjaminBirdie
- Start date
- Status
Drealmcc0y
Banned
cyclonekruse said:
Exactly, these people just love to look at the negative, why not look at what the show done gloriously for a change
Edit: I figured Jacob could leave the island whenever and however he wants because he is the protector and makes all the rules, he can do whatever he wants. He could probably magic a boat out of thin air if he wanted to lol
Erigu said:
It might not be going on in this thread anymore, only the fans remain, but I've seen plenty of discussion and especially criticism of Lost around here. You're certainly not the only one who feels that way. Hell, people are saying you're trolling but I've seen some far more inflammatory comments made even in just this thread.
For me, I'm fine with all of the little inconsistencies and unsolved mysteries. They may have not answered all of the questions, but I feel like they covered the most important ones regarding the island and the significance of the survivors. I watch the show and enjoy it for what it is, I simply don't care about that kind of stuff.
I don't feel like the creators were obligated to spell out the answer to every single mystery for us. In addition to that, I find that mysteries are much more fun than answers. The intrigue is much more exciting than the almost inevitably underwhelming explanation for it. Just look at the polar bears and the voices in the woods.
I was only along for the ride, and I enjoyed (almost)* every single moment of it.
*Rose and Bernard flashback, blech.
brandonh83
Banned
The show did so many awesome things but as usual the stuff it did wrong is what actually matters.
If you come in a big official thread for a show and say "I can't believe you guys like this mess" or whatever, you can't expect people to ask why or even care.Erigu said:
Maybe if could have elaborated on what you thought was wrong with the show in the first place, there could have been a discussion.
Drealmcc0y
Banned
Snuggler said:
The Rose and Bernard flashback held an incredibly important clue actually.
Isaac of Uluru explained the island is the right place for Locke and Rose to be healed. Isaac: "There are certain places with great energy, spots on the Earth like the one we're above now. Perhaps this energy is geological, magnetic.... or perhaps it's something else... It's not that you can't be healed. Like I said, there's different energies. This is not the right place for you."
I noticed this on my rewatch
Which is why I then posted a link to an article that echoes my main criticisms. But that didn't help much, apparently.cyclonekruse said:
I would probably go with "the writers pretended they knew the answers to their mysteries when they introduced them, and that simply wasn't true", and "it wouldn't have been so bad if they weren't terrible at improvising as well, as the plot is inconsistent as hell".
I realized soon enough that they didn't know where they were going, so I wasn't among the ones who were impatient regarding "answers".
Not showing the other end of that shootout is still piss-poor storytelling.
I would say the matter isn't so much "who was behind the food drops?", but rather "why didn't that someone ever do anything beyond the food drops?".
After all, not pushing that button meant the end of the world, right? That sounds pretty serious.
So... Why let two guys in charge of that button? Why not replace them? Why not send more people? Why simply drop food and call it a job well done? Are there higher priorities than the world potentially ending in the next 108 minutes?
"Ah, but Eloise did what she could to send Desmond to the island so he could push the button!"
Yeah (and let's not wonder how she knew where Desmond would try and buy a ring for Penny, or that the guy with the red shoes would die a brutal death), but that's just one guy. And not too late either, since Kelvin had apparently been alone for a while when Desmond showed up. One guy to push a button every 108 minutes or the world ends? 'Sounds pretty damn risky to me, but oh well!
OK, but could you tell me where, then? Even approximately?oatmeal said:
I just don't think it did "many awesome things", sorry... The premise was nice. There was some amusing misdirection in the opening scenes of a couple of seasons. Apart from that...brandonh83 said:
Drealmcc0y
Banned
*yawn*
Nameless
Member
Erigu said:
I'm not going to spend an hour or two quoting the entire article but:
This is WRONG on so many levels. All of the major events of the show and most of the biggest character arcs were synonymous to those themes.
Yeah the ENTIRETY of Season 4 was just an excuse to introduce three characters. :lol Even pretending we're in an imaginary world where such a BS state was the truth, I'd say Faraday was pretty fucking important, and Miles was far from pointless. Even Charlotte wasn't THAT important but her story gave us some good information and she served as the catalyst for Faraday wanting to reset things which of course led to half of Season 6. Lapidus didn't do shit, though. The 06 swam back to the island and Ajira flew itself off the island in the finale.
And yeah. I guess season 5 was pointless. Nevermind his article would have been twice as long had there been no answers to the myriad of questions and mysteries S5 tackled. To call the entire season insignificant should prove my point alone. Locke's death, Jack's taking his first path on the step towads faith, Jacob vs MIB. "What happened happened", Ben/Sayid, Flocke reveal... Should I go on?
Just read the article. He's angrily dismissive and constantly ignores large chunks of the narrative while make his "points."
Drealmcc0y
Banned
:lol
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
The whole thread, maybe? The thing is, you act like some kind of lone warrior on a mission to expose the show's hidden follies. Plenty have agreed with your gripes, and we've had extensive passionate debates for the past few months about the show; the good, the bad, and the ugly. Over and over and over.... we're just kinda tired, dude.Erigu said:
You're not bringing anything new to the table for us to discuss. You're justifiably venting over the show's grievances right now, which is totally fine, but it could've been done without the initial combative attitude and passive aggressive linking to that broad, cliched article.
Critical discussion of the show (faults and all) is always welcome, but veiled insults toward the fanbase will instantly stifle any discussion you claim to have wanted.
brandonh83
Banned
Erigu said:
Then the problem is that you're someone who largely doesn't like the show in a topic full of people who did like the show. It's one thing to discuss the flaws about something that you like overall but engaging with people who do like it overall, when you don't find much to enjoy about it, boggles my mind. There are plenty of threads about things I don't like, but I don't go in them and pursue arguments. I didn't like Inception, for example, and after I finished up my initial reasoning about why, I didn't continue to sound off about it because I was in the minority and I knew they didn't want to sift through my bullshit.
I don't have a problem with you not liking Lost. Whatever. You're not alone. But you're acting like it's a mystery why people in here are more or less turned off by your posts.
"Synonymous to those themes" doesn't mean much to me... Could you elaborate?Nameless said:
In the grand scheme of things? You could remove them and the time-travel plot altogether, as it turned out.
Like what? Some polar bear apparently managed to turn the Frozen Donkey Wheel?
How? They didn't reset anything, in the end. The whole thing didn't matter. They just conveniently reappeared in 2007, and that was it for that plot.
Thank god for Lapidus, 'cause without him, it would have been so unbelievable that a plane like that could be fixed in a matter of minutes.
And they really needed that plane, too, 'cause they didn't have a nice boat right there.
(and I guess all that stuff about needing the right bearings to leave the island wasn't so important after all...)
Why did Ben kill him, anyway? What did he have to gain by doing that?
Because, up to that point, Jack hadn't seen anything that could make him think that, perhaps, some supernatural stuff was going on? Like, an entire island disappearing, for example? And I guess he just wasn't phased by that giant man-eating monster in the pilot...
The "science vs. faith" thing was about as riveting as in the X Files. Gee, who's in the right? The guy who believes in aliens and the supernatural stuff that's been happening ever since the first episode of the show, or the skeptical one who's been proven wrong again and again but somehow still thinks aliens don't exist?
Explained (I'm using this term loosely) in the following season.
And what was the "loophole" that allowed MIB to kill Jacob, anyway? He did the exact same thing he tried with Richard long ago. Except this time, Jacob let himself be killed instead of defending himself (for some reason). Why was MIB so proud of himself?
'Doesn't matter outside of time travel plots. And contradicted as far as Desmond is concerned, apparently. Supposedly because he's an "exception". How does that even work?
What purpose did it serve?
Are we to understand that Ben is a lying manipulative SOB because he was cured by some magic water back when he was a child? Oh, and he has some kind of amnesia because of it, too, which is why he doesn't recognize Sayid. I guess we'll just have to assume Rousseau took a bath in that same water, and that's why she didn't recognize the guy who took her child from her.
Sayid killed a child!! Because he's a killer!! Yeah, I heard you just fine the first dozen times, show.
A "mystery" that was introduced in the same season anyway ("dead is dead! so who's that revived Locke?!" ... yeah, "dead is dead", except Sayid came back to life, that girl in Eko's flashback came back to life... but yeah, OK).
And that's precisely why being told that "it's been discussed already" doesn't help me all that much...oatmeal said:
So you're saying the whole thread has been a debate regarding the quality of the writing? I've read twenty pages or so, and that's not the impression I got...Catalix said:
Not what I was posting for in the first place, but since I've been called a troll for stating my opinion, I guess it means I have to elaborate.
"Veiled insults"? Where?
It just bothers me how overrated this show has been for years... Terrible shows that fail? No problem here. But when they're met with that kind of success and praise, I'm concerned about the consequences: how many Lost copycats will we get in the next few years?brandonh83 said:
Nah, I understand that. It's not like I love being told that a series I like sucks. But like I said above, that's no excuse for simply going "fuck off". The way I see it, either you're willing to actually discuss, or you shouldn't bother replying.
cyclonekruse
Member
Erigu said:
The criticisms in the article aren't any different than what we've encountered and dealt with, though. Plus it shows laziness on your part. Rather than taking the time to explain what you found wrong with the show, you post a link.
They've been foreshadowing things for the entire show. Sure, some things changed along the way. Walt's actor grew too fast. Eko's actor wanted off the show. But that doesn't mean they didn't have a general idea of what was going on. And I think, beyond some minor quibbles, the show was quite consistent.
It's one of the few legitimate gripes. Not many people here deny that.
Eloise already knew that Desmond would successfully push the button. She knew that the world wouldn't end until at least after Faraday got to the island so he could go back and time for her to shoot him.
brandonh83
Banned
Erigu said:
I think The Dark Knight is overrated but that doesn't make it so. Plenty of people love that film. Who am I to tell them that they're wrong and that it's overrated? For the record, everyone alive have things they think are overrated. If something is widely seen as good, that's enough ammunition for someone else to point fingers and yell "it's overrated!"
I'm just saying that while you likely have valid criticisms of the show, I just don't see a point in trying to discuss such in a topic populated by people who are fans of the show. You're likely to have better conversations in a more general topic about television or whatever where there isn't a huge concentration of people who loved it. And from my experience here, most people that have posted in these threads have all sounded off about things that they don't like about it. I'm one of them. Some of the biggest contributors to these threads have endlessly went over things they don't like about it, but they really like the show overall and thus it was easier to see that they had valid complaints that they wanted to touch on.
Yet, here you are, 2-3 months after the finale, trying to stir debate about how the show is overrated and how there aren't that many good things about it. I don't see you as a troll. I know trolls, we've had them, and thankfully we stopped seeing them as often after a while. But I don't get the point of coming in here to confess that you think its overrated-- I don't see what you'd get out of it.
cyclonekruse
Member
Erigu said:
Remove the time-travel plot and you gut the entire show. Without them going back in time and trying to change their past, they don't detonate Jughead during the Incident. Without that detonation, the Incident would have been a full-blown catastrophe that sank the island and allowed MiB to escape (ending everything). Thanks to that detonation, the Dharma Initiative were able to complete work on the Swan station. Desmond was able to push a button in that station. And then the Losties were able to return to the Island when Desmond failed to push the button.
What we learned from the polar bear in the desert was that the DI completed their excavation to the donkey wheel and ran some tests with polar bears. Because of those tests, they discovered where the "exit" to the donkey wheel was, Tunisia. I suppose the Others might have done that test. But the point is, that's how Widmore knew to place cameras in the precise location that Locke would arrive.
No, they didn't reset anything. But it made Faraday believe (or want to believe) that they could which drove Jack to finish his work and detonate Jughead which as I explained above was necessary for EVERYTHING.
Lapidus was just a fun character in my mind. They needed a pilot in Season 4. But he was so well-liked that they decided to keep him. And the bearings thing was because Jacob made it that way. He made the rules. Those rules changed when he gave control of the Island over to Jack.
Ben wanted to regain his power. And as explained in the finale, Ben was jealous of Locke.
Jack believed the supernatural things he saw (after some time) but the faith he finally developed was the faith that allowed for him to not constantly be in control. The faith that things would work out.
But an important reveal in the 5th season.
Jacob wanted to die. But not until he had put into place his plan to get a new Island Protector. So he stopped Richard and didn't stop Ben.
Desmond was a little dislodged from time when he was exposed to the EM radiation in the hatch.
First things first. The popular theory being bandied about here is that the light is time incarnate or something like that. So the pool water (which is the same as the cave water) has the ability to reverse time, as it did in Ben's case. That's why he had amnesia. Yes, it's a little contrived, but it does work. Second, how would you recognize anyone stealing your baby when all you could look at was the most horrendous hairpiece ever?
This was explained in a podcast. Sort of. The thing with Sayid (and the "sickness" in general) is the notion of thoughts being implanted in your brain. Sayid was a killer because people told him he was. When people suggested otherwise, like Nadia or Desmond, he wasn't a killer. It was a "thought sickness." A belief you can't get out of your head. A recent movie played with this idea.
Inception
I will give you that this was not explained in the show very well at all and is one of my personal gripes.
Again, the water can reverse time. It did it's job, but being less potent than normal (the water was not as bright), it took longer. The girl in Eko's flashback never died. Though she did get glimpses of the Great Beyond where she talked to Yemi. Kind of like how Juliet said that she and Sawyer could "go Dutch."
I'd say that the only sin the show committed is that it switched genres without warning. For example, you never question why the stones glow when near to each other in Temple of Doom or how is it that immortals can only be killed by chopping their heads off in Highlander. We learn to accept these arbitrary rules.
Since Lost started off as a mystery show, or was at least presented as one, it set up expectations of resolutions which ultimately never came once it went into full-on fantasy mode. There was a Christopher Nolan movie that had a similar problem, except it was two hours long as opposed to six seasons.
Anyway, I think even the most zealous fans admit that Lost has massive problems. However, it never stopped being entertaining. I really don't see the point in showing the unwashed masses that the emperor has no clothes, because brother, the masses - including myself - have been staring at his privates for six years now and enjoying every minute of it.
Since Lost started off as a mystery show, or was at least presented as one, it set up expectations of resolutions which ultimately never came once it went into full-on fantasy mode. There was a Christopher Nolan movie that had a similar problem, except it was two hours long as opposed to six seasons.
Anyway, I think even the most zealous fans admit that Lost has massive problems. However, it never stopped being entertaining. I really don't see the point in showing the unwashed masses that the emperor has no clothes, because brother, the masses - including myself - have been staring at his privates for six years now and enjoying every minute of it.
InaudibleWhispa
Member
The fact that Erigu thinks the time travel/Jughead plot "didn't matter" says it all. Without those events, 815 doesn't crash. We have no show. As always, 90% of the "questions" are due to people not paying full attention. It's understandable; not everyone put the time and effort to discuss/read-up on events as the show progressed, and as such they miss out on a lot. But now that they didn't get all of these answers in the finale, they bombard us with massive lists of questions that we have, over the last 6 years, figured out gradually.
Nameless
Member
Erigu said:
What do I have to elaborate on? Didn't you watch the show? Everything surrounding the hatch, Charlie's entire storyline, Locke's entire storyline, Jack's entire storyline, Eko's entire storyline, the detonation of Jughead, the 06 returning to the island, Jacob vs MIB's conflict, etc.. all constantly hearkened back to those major themes of the show. I'm not even sure how anyone could argue otherwise unless they weren't paying attention.
yankeehater
Member
Erigu said:
Thank you for posting that. He sums it up perfectly.
Who do you need to be to criticize a movie/show? I don't see how that's "stepping out of line"...brandonh83 said:
Well, again, that wasn't why I posted in the first place...
But if people say they can answer all of the show's mysteries... well, I'm curious.
The show didn't say anything about Jughead having prevented a catastrophe of island-sinking proportions... In fact, like Miles said, if "whatever happened, happened", Jughead was always supposed to play the role it played in the Incident...cyclonekruse said:
And that's an odd way to approach the whole thing, really... Prior to the time-travel plot, we knew there was an incident, and, obviously, it didn't sink the island. Remove the time-travel plot, and where's the problem, here? How does it "gut the entire show"?
Which is odd, considering Ben had to blow a wall up to get into that cave. The whole thing didn't look all that practical for polar bears, really.
And what was the point of that, anyway?
Too bad they couldn't think of anything for him to do... until he fixed an airliner within minutes, that is (not that it was necessary as, once again, there was a boat.. which they left to go back to the island, get on a plane and get off the island).
What was the point of those rules? Why prevent people from leaving the island? Just to be an ass?
How did killing Locke help him accomplish that?
Because Locke was healed by the island? He wasn't the only one.
And the guy was about to commit suicide... What was there to be jealous of, at that point?
The faith to stop asking questions? Because that appears to be what the show was saying, toward the end, and I'm not exactly comfortable with that kind of message... Don't be curious about the mysteries of the island, or you'll "inevitably" be murdered by the "good guys" who protect it (and couldn't think of another way to deal with you despite all their powers). Well, OK, then!
A reveal that wasn't connected to the time-travel plot in any way and could have been moved to season 4 or season 6, really. Point is, most of season 5 was meaningless in the end.
Why? And did he really need the MIB for that anyway?
"Putting a plan into place" is one thing. But he still hadn't appointed that new protector by the time MIB and Ben showed up. To let himself killed right there and then? 'Sounds like a bad idea to me.
And again, why was MIB so proud of himself, then? What was the "loophole" he said he found?
My point is, "whatever happened, happened" is a model of time-travel that doesn't suffer any exception. You can't say "there's no way to change history... unless your name is xxxxx, in which case, sure, go ahead!" It makes no sense.
Wouldn't quite explain that though:
What does innocence have to do with anything?
:lol
Seriously though... Doesn't it bother you? She catches the guy in one of her traps, and doesn't recognize him from that fateful night?
Well, even before he got sick, really...
Er... Are you saying the sickness made it so anybody could change Sayid's mind just by talking to him for a little while? That he couldn't take his own decisions anymore? 'Cause Claire sure needed a lot of convincing (and she killed that guy with an axe anyway).
So when the guys of the Temple said it wasn't their water that revived him, they didn't know what they were talking about?
Again, that's an odd way to approach the whole thing... We already had the incident and Desmond not pushing the button as an explanation for the crash, prior to the time travel plot. No need for the time-travel plot or Jughead.InaudibleWhispa said:
How?Nameless said:
My expectations aren't "unrealistic" at all, and are in fact met by a whole bunch of stories out there.
Baseless speculation, really.
So planes are an exception? Since when?
Yes, Jack wanted to go back because Locke told him bad things were happening to Sawyer and it was Jack's fault (for leaving the island). Except it wasn't, as it turned out. It was all because of the damn Frozen Donkey Wheel that hadn't been turned correctly. And when we got to the point where we actually saw that off-island conversation between Jack and Locke, Locke didn't say anything about it being Jack's fault (why would he?).
The writers fucked up. And as result, Jack's motivation for going back to the island made no sense.
His father appearing to him who-knows-why...
I really don't see how that answers that part you bolded in any way.
I think it's pretty clear that Richard saying he wouldn't remember what happened was the writers' way of dealing with that particular issue. What other purpose would that line serve?
Another gratuitous causal loop? We already had the compass one.
And explaining Ben's dark side by magic? Really? That passes for good storytelling?
Indeed, it isn't. Please elaborate.
brandonh83
Banned
Ben used to view Locke as a threat when it came to having superiority on the island. That's why he killed him.
I would say he sums up somethings perfectly. I agree that Season 6 had problems, but no matter how disappointed I may be with it, it doesn't ruin the previous five seasons which are still great TV.yankeehater said:
I actually never understood the "its so bad it retroactively ruins the previous installments" argument, its just stupid hyperbole.
InaudibleWhispa
Member
The Incident was and always has been Jughead going off. Whatever Happened Happened. Without Jughead, there would be no button to push. Jughead neutralised the growing energy from Dharma's drill which would have otherwise likely engulfed the island. This gave them time to build the swan hatch, and create the protocol that discharges the built-up energy every 108 minutes. Meanwhile Dharma fills the bomb site in with concrete to contain any radiation (Sayid, Season 2 - This looks just like Chernobyl). As Miles said "What if setting the bomb off doesn't change the future, it causes it?". That is exactly what happens.Erigu said:
Not from the perpective of the audience (nor from the writers', really, as I seriously doubt Jughead and the time travel plot were planned from the beginning).InaudibleWhispa said:
You're basically saying that the time-travel plot was needed because of the time-travel plot. That's circular logic.
Baseless speculation... The show didn't say anything about Jughead buying DHARMA time.
I realize that (even if the show never really bothered to tell whether or not Miles was right, it simply makes more sense for him to be right). But that's a posteriori. Prior to the time-travel plot, we had an explanation for the plane crashing on the island, and it worked just fine.
Spotting plot holes and inconsistencies is fun. To me, anyway.thekad said:
I had a lot of fun with Lost.
brandonh83
Banned
Erigu said:
Not really. Ben takes things to the absolute extreme before turning the tables. It's part of being a successful manipulative bastard.
Dead said:
I think they are.
In my mind, Damon is writing ST2 (in addition to producing, as he did in the first, which he didn't write) to pump up the script/offset O+K, which brought ST1 down a bit.
Seems to me people are getting hip to O+K's shit.
I wonder if JJ could've just had them off writing duties, but that'd probably be a whole can of worms.
Edit: I see that O+K did NOT produce ST2009. Just JJ and Damon.
Edit2: Ok, I'm totally putting together a narrative in my head where JJ and Damon want O+K off the ST sequel, but the studio doesn't. Instead, JJ/Damon just pitch Damon also taking a hand in the script. He then shelves most of their draft :lol .
cyclonekruse
Member
Erigu said:
Yes, Jughead was always part of the Incident. That's not the point. What the time-travel plot line showed us was that our characters were directly responsible for bringing themselves to the island (via a chain reaction). How is that not significant?
As yes, we knew the Incident didn't sink the island. But we didn't know the implications of the Incident and all the events surrounding it.
The DI sealed the room away after they tested it with the polar bear. Perhaps they decided playing with the time-space continuum like that was inadvisable and wanted some distance from the light. It's not that hard to come up with a plausible explanation for the room being sealed.
Widmore was trying to get back to the Island. He scouted the exit point to see if he could use someone to reach that goal. Locke came through. He used Locke.
Lapidus wasn't aware of any boat, IIRC. And there was some major seismic activity going on when they were taking off. The plane was safer than the boat because of the choppy waves.
Jacob wanted to control events as much as possible so he could correct his mistake (i.e. kill MiB) and also find a replacement.
Locke was his main rival. If they both arrived on the Island, Locke would be given leadership of the Others again. Ben was just trying to eliminate his competition.
Ben was jealous of Locke's communion with the Island. It was something Ben had pretended to have. Ben wanted to be special. But all he was was manipulative. And jealousy doesn't go away even when the other person is down. Not necessarily.
The faith to let go. Jack's main issue was his constant need to fix things. Once he let go of that incessant urge, things started working out.
And they could have put the show in chronological order. Why would that be a good idea?
He needed the MiB to feel like he'd won. It forced his hand. Instead of staying in the background, he revealed himself and allowed people to coalesce and work against him. Ultimately it spelled his downfall.
Jacob knew what was up. He had set all the pieces in motion. Thousands of years on an island can let you plan out every last detail.
The rule was that he couldn't hurt his brother. In the end, he didn't. He manipulated someone else into hurting his brother.
What exactly did Desmond do that you couldn't apply "whatever happened, happened" to?
They marked him somehow? I don't know. Does it matter? Maybe Richard was lying.
No. People that have guns to their faces become less reliable witnesses. Plus, the next time she saw him was 16 years later. That's a long time to remember a face. And we can't forget that Rousseau was a little jungle crazy.
Yes, but the sickness exacerbated the issue.
Yes and no. The MiB was able to change Sayid's mind. I think we can infer that both he and Jacob were persuasive in a profound way. That's why you need to stab them before they speak. Part of it is that MiB makes promises for things that he knows you want (since he can read your past). So he makes Sayid a soulless killing machine. However, the one thing that can overcome this affliction is love (the greatest cure of all). As Desmond's speech demonstrates.
Could be. If we learned anything throughout Lost it's that the people who we think know what's going on invariably don't.
A lot of these questions can be answered with just a little bit of effort. And there are some things that you just have to suspend your disbelief and accept (as it is with every single story ever). Because if you keep asking questions, as Crazy Mommy says, the answers will just lead to more questions. Don't misunderstand that to mean you should ask questions. But some of your questions are just silly, IMO.
brandonh83
Banned
Erigu said:
At that point Ben had to work together with Locke. In season 5, however, Ben saw an opportunity. He found Locke at his lowest point and then learned that Locke had Jin's wedding ring, which he could use to manipulate Sun and possibly go from there when it comes to gaining his "superiority" back. Ben was still more or less being sincere to Locke right up until he saw that Locke had Jin's ring which proves that he's alive. Ben, at that point, was basically misdirected and lost. He just goes with the flow until he can find some way to make a gain.
Anyway I'm done recounting the events of the show. If you have all these questions, watch it and pay attention, the show speaks for itself. It's there to answer your questions. Most of them, anyway. Don't clam up and assume that because you personally didn't understand something that it's the show's fault. Pretty much every question you've asked was clearly answered.
- Status