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[evil solrac v3.0]

Erigu........ I'm not even sure what to say anymore. so your argument boils down to is that Lost is a bad show because they showed people that had questionable character in a positive light?

 

[Erigu]

Erigu........ I'm not even sure what to say anymore.

I told you: please list your allergies. We need to celebrate that anniversary.

so your argument boils down to is that Lost is a bad show because they showed people that had questionable character in a positive light?

That's not "what it boils down to", no, but there are some serious double standards, there.

 

[Catalix]

I don't know (not too hopeful though) about the general mythology as I dropped the show early in season 2, but shouldn't the episodic X-Files-like structure help somewhat? Or has the show really changed that much since I've last seen it?

The show's focus changes significantly. I must've "quit" Fringe at least 3-4 times out of sheer boredom, before it finally proved its worth later in Season 2. It gets a major kick in the pants, becoming much more serialized after 2x14. While the episode structure still mostly retains that "case of the week" format, they do a much better job of fleshing out the overarching storylines along the way.

But the thing they end up doing with the "mythology" is what impressed me the most. There are substantial callbacks and meaningful payoffs. It's very clever how a lot of times they manage to retroactively add weight to seemingly innocuous events from earlier episodes. The writers make the smart choice of tying the main characters' motivations and backstories directly into the mythological core. That way, we always have an emotional anchor point whenever the audience is exposed to the show's more fantastical elements.

Remember how I absolutely loathe Jacob as a character? He's an integral figure that is both directly and indirectly responsible for essentially ruining a countless amount of innocent lives, but the show never really has the balls to fully address that moral conundrum. No real attempt by the writers to rationalize his seemingly nonsensical actions within the context of the story. Well a similar scenario is presented in Fringe, but they never shy away from the issue. In fact, they end up making it the centerpiece of the mythology, highlighting the logical consequences of that integral character's dubious actions. The way it was handled was very satisfying, I thought.

You think? I feel like I get invested like that quite often, myself... Kinda hurts the bank account, too...

Nah, just don't have it in me anymore, man. Nowadays, my "love" for certain shows is more like an "arm's-length appreciation."

 

[oatmeal]

Holy shit...epic quote tags, bro.

I'm not going to do this the pretty way...

Ah fuck it, yes I am.

What do you mean?

Sorry, I wasn't clear.

After the crash, I meant...after they got off the island. She and Jack tried to have a relationship, but nothing was working. She felt guilty as shit over Aaron and knew it was wrong.

Well, go back and fetch Claire. I mean, it's not like she listened to Locke when he told her that everybody on the island would die unless she came back (wut?).
And how could I forget her moment of realization, after three years? "Ohnoes! I lost Aaron in the supermarket! Does that happen to real parents? I don't know! And that woman who found him looks like Claire! Well, that does it: he clearly needs his real mom!"
Lost and its masterful character studies...

Jack didn't listen to Locke either. Everyone thought he was crazy until the island moved and they realized he was right.

As for the supermarket scene...it just made her realize even further that she's not this kids mom, she's not cut out for being a mother, and that it wasn't right. And reminded her of Claire.

You may not have liked it, but I know a lot of people did. So agree to disagree, I suppose.

Personally, I'd probably say Jack was more annoying a character (on the island, anyway)...
But then again, few characters didn't seem too awful to me. They were also characters who had very little to do on the show, probably not so coincidentally. Guess that's just what happens when you don't know how to stir drama other than by turning your characters into terrible assholes for no good reason: only those who stay on the bench are spared.

By the end of Season 5, I think Jack was the least liked character on the show...for most fans. He had a grating personality at that point, and was a sore loser.

HOWEVER, I thought his transition to becoming a 'believer' was handled really well. The big moment was when he let the bomb run down and it didn't go off with him and Alpert in the Black Rock. He finally understood...there was some stupid shit to get to that point, but when it happened it was worth it, IMO.

Again, you either buy it or you don't. I bought it.

Sorry, I'm not sure I follow you... By "everyone", you mean "the viewers"?

I meant both. He was 'evil incarnate' for awhile, but people had taken to him. The viewers were with him for years, and the LOSTies and him had paired up at the end of Season 4 to take out the Freighties.

I'm a bit lost, there. I believe DeathNote and I were talking about the... er... "alignment" (pardon the Nerdspeak) of the character. How he went from mass murderer to...
Oh, god... That fucking scene where Ben suddenly speaks Carebear:

My bad, I misread that.

However, Ben did take care of a lot of people on that island. He had a thirst for power, but looking back at New Otherton, he had a pretty nice thing going there. Sure he had a scary desire to pummel Juliet's vagina (who could blame him?), but overall it seemed like a pretty happy coexistence.

And all of the unspeakable horrors he committed were due to being played. He thought he was special and chosen by Jacob. It's not too dissimilar to a lot of religious zealots. They go a tad bit overboard sometimes. Just a bit

She "had to"? It's not like those experiences on the island slowly changed her from scum of society to lovable lead female or anything like that. She seemed alright right from the pilot. Even shortly before the crash, actually: that's how she got caught.
I don't see much in the way of character development.

By 'had to', I meant the crash happened. It was out of her control. Her flashbacks showed her as someone who was unhappy and she made a pretty large mistake (killing father) which put her on the run for years. That's a pretty shitty experience.

But other than that, she was portrayed as 'not terrible', she just couldn't ever be who she was. She was obviously feeling a lot of guilt for it, which is why she left her fake marriage. But the marriage WAS real, she did love him, she did have a friendship with the Australian who turned her in, she made a big mistake and sorta paid for it.

Pleading Not-Guilty, though. I don't know...you're right that that would have been more fitting. But she's put up with a lot of shit, only to come home to that? That would be pretty shitty!

Well, one could argue it's a pretty significant difference. There would be other options before "let's blow up the house with him inside while he sleeps!".
And the fact her "other" dad just knew she'd kill him if she learned the truth about her biological father is priceless.

What other options are there?

Go to the police? The mother had the beaten wife syndrome, she wasn't going to fess up. It was out of Kate's hands, she acted on impulse. There's not much to say about what she did...

Oh, please...
And when Michael was desperate, not for a toy but for his child, the show made it quite clear that he had sinned. Unexplained-ghost-Christian implied you had redeemed yourself, on that freighter? Dude, noooo. Hu-huh. No limbo church for you. Now go whisper as the Others ninja in and out of scenes.

A girl on the run, a girl who has nothing but the clothes on her back, a girl who is so far removed from the little girl who innocently tried to steal a NKotB lunch bag would probably care quite a bit about some link to her past. Don't you think?

Hell, I have a great upbringing and yet I still get jazzed when I visit home and check out my old box of toys in the basement.

Oh, and revenge is a "natural phenomenon".

You don't think so?

I mean, not really a phenomenon...it's just the most carnal response to something bad happening. Millions of people do it every year. It's bad, but it happens.

... Really?
Dexter feels he's justified in killing those people, yeah. I would hope the viewers aren't supposed to be completely on board. I would hope they keep in mind that Dexter's morals are a bit... skewed by his addiction to murder and that code his father came up with in order to protect him. I would hope the show, too, knowingly plays with that (and doesn't take itself so seriously as to argue "now, that's how you should deal with that scum! a zealous vigilante!"), hence the amusing opening credits.

Well, anyway: point is, the show doesn't let you forget that Dexter murders people. Even when it humanizes its main character, I believe the idea is to play on that gap between his ghastly hobby and the fact he's the sympathetic main character who learns what it means to be in a relationship or start a family. That's what makes the show "quirky".

Lost doesn't play on that at all, with Kate. It just sweeps it all under the rug, whereas other characters aren't so lucky because they're not Approved Good Guys.

But Dexter has always been about him killing bad guys. And they always go way out of their way to explain just how bad these 'guys' are. That's how they justify it to the viewers. He does some horrible things due to the addiction/code, but if he was just killing random people in the street, no one would sympathize with him.

In season 5 of Dexter...

Spoiler

after the killing of Rita, he goes unhinged for a minute and kills some random in a bathroom. It is the first 'innocent' he kills in the series and it is forgotten about by the next episode. It could have been such a great story to tell, Dexter breaking his code and dealing with the consequences.

LOST showed that the dad was a bad guy, and unfortunately didn't have time (or it felt it wasn't important enough) to hammer it in more. But at least the one guy she killed wasn't a Libby/Ana Lucia.

Ah, it looks like you're right.

I'm getting this framed.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

I remember about 10 pages back I tried to keep up with Erigu's bullfuckery.

Its draining isnt it Oatmeal?

Someone mentioned that people hardly ever argues with Erigu so he must be right.

You have no idea how hard it is to reply to him and keep it up. The man is a machine(freak).

On another note, I watched "316" today. Love that episode. I get chills when Jack reads Locke's letter.

 

[oatmeal]

I remember about 10 pages back I tried to keep up with Erigu's bullfuckery.

Its draining isnt it Oatmeal?

Someone mentioned that people hardly ever argues with Erigu so he must be right.

You have no idea how hard it is to reply to him and keep it up. The man is a machine(freak).

On another note, I watched "316" today. Love that episode. I get chills when Jack reads Locke's letter.

Yeah, that's why I said it's tough to keep up because it's so much work. And this is NeoGAF, dude. There shouldn't be any work done here.

I'm ignoring my work to be here.

316 is brilliant.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Yeah, that's why I said it's tough to keep up because it's so much work. And this is NeoGAF, dude. There shouldn't be any work done here.

I'm ignoring my work to be here.

316 is brilliant.

Trust me, there is nobody who understands better than I now, that it is just never, ever worth it.

He is the man in black and every time we argue with him he is infecting us with his darkness.

I dont mind critisicm from other people because I can easily counter it, but with him he always finds something wrong with it no matter what.

On the subject of 316, I love that moment where Jack first walks on the plane. Giacchino adds this wonderful, subtle bit of music that I love to it.

I like season 5 but its definetly the weakest season when it comes to telling character stories, but 316 totally nails it for me.

Its the first episode of season 5 that really tells a character story. The first 5 episodes are unique and a lot of fun with the time skipping but they dont really tell a quality character story.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

I jump in to make a point then out. Not going to have an endless debate about Kate.

If someone was willing to do it, he'd debate Kate in ever single post for a week and we'd get no where. We could tag team but I don't wanna.

Normal people will stop taking about a sub-topic when they get no where. Which is why everyone else in this thread and on this forum eventually stops responding to a topic. All of this was discussed earlier.

 

[WillyFive]

I have no problem with the size of his arguments, just the sheer suspension of belief required for accepting the validity of his complaints.

He takes random lines, and then says they are crazy, like when Ben talked to Hurley about he taking care of people. He seems to not know where that came from, despite Hurley being the nicest and most concerned of other people's affairs in the show (and he didn't threaten people like Jack), and then said he felt Ben saying 'done in another way' was so ridiculous he expected animals to come dancing out.

I saw the show, I saw that episode, and that was a very great conversation. It was touching, while summarizing character traits (as a finale should do), and setting up possible future storylines while concluding the current plot thread. Of course, to the normal viewer, it would simply be a touching scene, one of many that made you tear up in the finale.

But to Erigu, it was obviously something else. He is looking at a show through such an intense critical eye, so zoomed in that he can't even put together simple sentences, and then freaks out. I don't understand how this happens with Lost, but seemingly doesn't happen with other shows like Mad Men (I assume it doesn't happen, since I haven't heard much from him), since it is also a show that relies on character interactions and how such interactions have developed throughout the run of the show. (Erigu: Hey guys! Remember that scene when the red head said she had a 15 year old daughter? What the heck was that!?! She doesn't even have a 15 year old daughter! LOL bad writing why does this show exist)

Anyway, Kate is Kate. I never hated her like many others did here, for some reason. She wasn't the most interesting character, but she wasn't offensive in any way.

 

[Catalix]

I like season 5 but its definetly the weakest season when it comes to telling character stories, but 316 totally nails it for me.

Its the first episode of season 5 that really tells a character story. The first 5 episodes are unique and a lot of fun with the time skipping but they dont really tell a quality character story.

This is true. S5 was very heavy on the mythos.

My poor Sun was the biggest victim of that season. But you wouldn't understand because you think she always sucked. You monster!

 

[oatmeal]

I have no problem with the size of his arguments, just the sheer suspension of belief required for accepting the validity of his complaints.

He takes random lines, and then says they are crazy, like when Ben talked to Hurley about he taking care of people. He seems to not know where that came from, despite Hurley being the nicest and most concerned of other people's affairs in the show (and he didn't threaten people like Jack), and then said he felt Ben saying 'done in another way' was so ridiculous he expected animals to come dancing out.

I saw the show, I saw that episode, and that was a very great conversation. It was touching, while summarizing character traits (as a finale should do), and setting up possible future storylines while concluding the current plot thread. Of course, to the normal viewer, it would simply be a touching scene, one of many that made you tear up in the finale.

But to Erigu, it was obviously something else. He is looking at a show through such an intense critical eye, so zoomed in that he can't even put together simple sentences, and then freaks out. I don't understand how this happens with Lost, but seemingly doesn't happen with other shows like Mad Men (I assume it doesn't happen, since I haven't heard much from him), since it is also a show that relies on character interactions and how such interactions have developed throughout the run of the show. (Erigu: Hey guys! Remember that scene when the red head said she had a 15 year old daughter? What the heck was that!?! She doesn't even have a 15 year old daughter! LOL bad writing why does this show exist)

Anyway, Kate is Kate. I never hated her like many others did here, for some reason. She wasn't the most interesting character, but she wasn't offensive in any way.

No TV show has ever been under the microscope eye like LOST.

While listening to the Cutting The Cable Podcast (the guys that do the Fringe podcast), they were talking about Back to the Future and said that, if released now, it would not be as warmly regarded because of all of the plot holes and random logic.

It's true, too. We, as a viewer, demand so much more from our shows nowadays.

Imagine if Twin Peaks aired now. It wouldn't get a second season.

Good post, though.

I have time to reply, it's either that or sit staring at the screen as I wait for videos to render out.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

This is true. S5 was very heavy on the mythos.

My poor Sun was the biggest victim of that season. But you wouldn't understand because you think she always sucked. You monster!

Nah I dont think she sucks, I might have said that in the past just to get a point across.

But the Sun and Jin storyline has never been a highlight for me and the fact that they took a backseat to other characters was only good for me. I do enjoy occasional moments with them though.

 

[Salmonax]

Was Sun ever given anything useful to do on the island? I'm having trouble thinking of anything.

Figured I might as well get a question in while this briefly almost resembles a normal thread.

 

[oatmeal]

Was Sun ever given anything useful to do on the island? I'm having trouble thinking of anything.

Figured I might as well get a question in while this briefly almost resembles a normal thread.

She started her little garden. She helped Shannon with her asthma.

 

[WillyFive]

Sun and Jin were some of my favorite characters of the show. They were unique amongst the group, and had a lot of stories to tell. The marriage/double character dynamic was interesting to me as well.

 

[oatmeal]

...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-M8P14u_G8


Do you hear that?

 

[Drealmcc0y]

...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-M8P14u_G8


Do you hear that?

A monster made of black smoke is just so damn cool to me and the noises it makes is just delicious. I especially enjoy the clanking chains noise it makes. For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwAzJIK1RAQ at 0:23 that moment is just so damn cool.

Will never ever forget that moment in "Exodus" when they revealed the monster.

 

[oatmeal]

A monster made of black smoke is just so damn cool to me and the noises it makes is just delicious.

Will never ever forget that moment in "Exodus" when they revealed the monster.

I was really hoping Erigu would post after me there.

 

[Catalix]

Sun and Jin were some of my favorite characters of the show. They were unique amongst the group, and had a lot of stories to tell. The marriage/double character dynamic was interesting to me as well.

Thought the same. S1-4 Jin and Sun were top-tier.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

I was really hoping Erigu would post after me there.

Shit man, i ruined it.

D:

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Thought the same. S1-4 Jin and Sun were top-tier.

The only Jin and Sun episodes I would consider great are "... In Translation" and "The Whole Truth".

 

[WillyFive]

One of my favorite moments was when Hurley charged into the camp during the Season 3 finale in the Dharma van.

That was utterly amazing. The Dharma van that was given a complete episode half a season earlier (which was also a fantastic episode, and another reason for how great the 2nd half of S3 was), to come out of nowhere and save the day, was a perfect example of Chekov's gun in television. And then we got to see more Dharma vans in the past, all new and clean, it was perfect.

 

[oatmeal]

One of my favorite moments was when Hurley charged into the camp during the Season 3 finale in the Dharma van.

That was utterly amazing. The Dharma van that was given a complete episode half a season earlier (which was also a fantastic episode, and another reason for how great the 2nd half of S3 was), to come out of nowhere and save the day, was a perfect example of Chekov's gun in television. And then we got to see more Dharma vans in the past, all new and clean, it was perfect.

Everything with that van was great.

Roger Workman...the payoff is awesome.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

One of my favorite moments was when Hurley charged into the camp during the Season 3 finale in the Dharma van.

That was utterly amazing. The Dharma van that was given a complete episode half a season earlier (which was also a fantastic episode, and another reason for how great the 2nd half of S3 was), to come out of nowhere and save the day, was a perfect example of Chekov's gun in television. And then we got to see more Dharma vans in the past, all new and clean, it was perfect.

It was a good moment.

Ive always wondered this but after Hugo saves the day and Sawyer makes him jump and says "Stay in the damn bus......" Does he say Hugo or Hero? its always bothered me lol

Also, you do realise that episode was in the first half of season 3?

 

[Catalix]

A monster made of black smoke is just so damn cool to me and the noises it makes is just delicious. I especially enjoy the clanking chains noise it makes. For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwAzJIK1RAQ at 0:23 that moment is just so damn cool.

The "howling" is my favorite monster noise. All of its sounds are pretty iconic though.

Will never ever forget that moment in "Exodus" when they revealed the monster.

"Yeah, I saw it too." Got a nice chuckle outta that line.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

The "howling" is my favorite monster noise. All of it sounds are pretty iconic though.

The best howling moment has got to be this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtDxtUIV39Y&feature=related from exodus at 1:10. I wonder where the writers got the idea for Arzt(Arznt?) to make thos wierd noises lol

or this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXMz9JZJF4A at 1:23 added with the tikka tikka

edit: actually http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWbizyYkKvM at 3:55 has got to be the coolest howling moment.

Also did anybody know that what Eko whispers in Locke's ear isnt "Youre next" its "I saw... the... devil"

 

[oatmeal]

Anyone remember any spoilers that they read?

I read two big ones in the final season that weren't true.

1. The LOSTies were going to be on the Black Rock. Like Claire, Illana, Sayid, etc. They were part of its voyage. And it was going to happen in Ab Aeterno. I felt so dirty when I read that, and as the season progressed, all I could think was "how the hell are they going to get there in x amount of episodes?"

2. In the finale call-sheet, there were references to HELL.

I was really worried about that one.

 

[WillyFive]

I saw the whole show between when Season 6 started and the day before Across the Sea, so I never had any experience with spoilers. I do remember hearing about lava being in the finale, but that was an observation on filming, not rumors.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Anyone remember any spoilers that they read?

I read two big ones in the final season that weren't true.

1. The LOSTies were going to be on the Black Rock. Like Claire, Illana, Sayid, etc. They were part of its voyage. And it was going to happen in Ab Aeterno. I felt so dirty when I read that, and as the season progressed, all I could think was "how the hell are they going to get there in x amount of episodes?"

2. In the finale call-sheet, there were references to HELL.

I was really worried about that one.

Haha I also read the first one too. I was so annoyed when I read that one, because it seemed like the mother of all spoilers hehe.

Well if like me, you believe that once the cork was popped, the island had sunk that everybody would literally go to hell then it makes sense, that it says that on the call sheet.

I knew that Charlie was going to die and that we were seeing flashforwards from the season 3 finale. Wish I didnt

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Hey guys, have you guys noticed any moments that have entirely different meaning on rewatch, like these from What Kate Does:

I posted this on another forum a while ago, but I thought I would share here.

I was watching this the other day(I think its pretty good now by the way) and I noticed a couple of things in the FSW I never noticed before.

Claire: You mean you can stop it then?

Ethan: Maybe, however to do that would require a number of drugs.

Claire: Drugs, would that hurt the baby?

Ethan: No they're perfectly safe, I just dont wanna stick you with needles if I dont have to.

I reckon this is Ethans way of subconsciously redeeming himself in the FSW. Back on the island he stuck Claire with needles(Just watch Raised by Another) and now he is making amends and doing it the better way.

Also

In the final scene of the FSW where Claire gives her the credit card. On first rewatch you're wondering why would she give her that.

Claire: Theres not much of a limit on it, but its something.

Kate: You dont have to do this.

Claire: You didnt have to do what you did either.

Kate: I think you should keep him.

This has got nothing to with credit cards. Its them subconsciously saying thanks to each other for what happened in the real world "You didnt have to do what you did either". Claire is happy that Kate raised Aaron and Kate's saying you're the one that needs to raise him.

Also in "Further Instruction" Locke's episode from season 3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxOA10jlZr8 6:53 onwards, the whole thing is basically discussing why MiB chose Locke.

MiB: "Its not personal"

Locke: "Whats not personal!?"

Also the moment where he tries to shoot him but doesnt is just like at the end of season 3 where he tries to shoot Jack but doesnt... Locke is a farmer.

 

[Erigu]

But the thing they end up doing with the "mythology" is what impressed me the most. [...]

Fuuuuuum... That doesn't sound like a J.J. Abrams show, when you describe it like that!
Well, it's nice if they managed to find their footing with the mythology (the show was off to a shaky start in that area... "pattern"-what?).
Probably won't give it another try though... I wasn't too fond of the tone of the show, for one thing.

Nah, just don't have it in me anymore, man. Nowadays, my "love" for certain shows is more like an "arm's-length appreciation."

Aw...
Did you give one of those titles I listed earlier a try, by the way?
(-> PM, perhaps?)

after they got off the island. She and Jack tried to have a relationship, but nothing was working. She felt guilty as shit over Aaron and knew it was wrong.

Oh, okay. Thanks.
Well, that had nothing to do with that murder and all that other stuff that followed while she was on the run, right?

Jack didn't listen to Locke either. Everyone thought he was crazy until the island moved and they realized he was right.

Er... I don't know why you're saying this. If that's supposed to explain why Kate wouldn't trust Locke... well, that was after "the island moved and they realized he was right", so...
Anyway, my point was that she didn't go back to help the others but to fetch Claire. That was the motivation. A tiny bit less heroic (especially considering how she reacted to Locke's visit).

I thought his transition to becoming a 'believer' was handled really well.

Wow.

The big moment was when he let the bomb run down and it didn't go off with him and Alpert in the Black Rock.

The dynamite? That actually sounds like the kind of stunt a character wouldn't pull unless they were already far gone over to the side of faith (faith in a convenient fate for them, here!)...

He was 'evil incarnate' for awhile, but people had taken to him. The viewers were with him for years, and the LOSTies and him had paired up at the end of Season 4 to take out the Freighties.

Heh. Yeah, and he had acknowledged Ben as his successor (there was a bit of Carebear in the way he delivered those lines already, back then) until the writers decided that was boring and he was jealous as hell again...
Those "character arcs"...

However, Ben did take care of a lot of people on that island. He had a thirst for power, but looking back at New Otherton, he had a pretty nice thing going there. Sure he had a scary desire to pummel Juliet's vagina (who could blame him?), but overall it seemed like a pretty happy coexistence.

Curiously enough, considering he wouldn't allow the pregnant women to leave the island...

And all of the unspeakable horrors he committed were due to being played. He thought he was special and chosen by Jacob.

Because he became the new leader when Widmore got banished?
The way that scene played, I was kinda wondering just how leaders were chosen exactly, because it looked like Ben was usurping the position. That certainly is how Widmore was putting it anyway, and Ben seemed pretty damn proud of himself, so... was Ben picked by Jacob (something that, I imagine, would be out of his control and could indeed make him feel "special"), or did he make sure his people would support him?

By 'had to', I meant the crash happened. It was out of her control. Her flashbacks showed her as someone who was unhappy and she made a pretty large mistake (killing father) which put her on the run for years. That's a pretty shitty experience.

Oh. Sorry, I misunderstood you.
Well, there certainly is a connection between the murder and the fact she then spent 3 years running from the authorities! And yeah, that's the reason she ended up on that plane (then again, so did a whole bunch of other people who were just... well, taking the plane).

When I say the murder seems inconsequential, I don't mean there weren't any effects. Obviously, her life was affected, indeed.
What I mean is that it's as if that murder was merely "something that happened to her". Like an unfortunate accident. In the end, it appears no lessons were learned regarding that. In fact, there was no discernible guilt. And yeah, she even ended up pleading not guilty.
Damn. Seems awfully cavalier of her, and since the show didn't seem to give a damn either, awfully cavalier of Lost itself (and that particular death is just an example among others, like I said earlier).

But other than that, she was portrayed as 'not terrible', she just couldn't ever be who she was. She was obviously feeling a lot of guilt for it, which is why she left her fake marriage.

Was it really guilt over the murder, though?
As Lostpedia put it: "A few months into their marriage, she contacted the marshal, begging him to stop chasing her, but he said that either way she'd find she couldn't settle down. Sure enough, Kate soon discovered she couldn't deal with domestic life after a pregnancy scare. Surprise honeymoon tickets reminded Kate that she lacked a valid passport and couldn't continue lying to Kevin. She was forced to drug her husband, believing he suspected her as the fugitive she was, and reluctantly left him"
She sounds mostly... inconvenienced by her fugitive status. Worried that she'd eventually get caught. Like an innocent fugitive would be, really.

Pleading Not-Guilty, though. I don't know...you're right that that would have been more fitting. But she's put up with a lot of shit, only to come home to that? That would be pretty shitty!

Well, yeah, but it's her damn fault! Others probably would have had a bunch of late parking tickets. She had a first degree murder waiting for her. That's no small matter. Shouldn't be, anyway.
Still, she just denied it and got away with it and the show apparently didn't consider that an issue worth addressing or anything: that particular problem had been dealt with and we would never speak of it again.
Wow.

What other options are there?
Go to the police? The mother had the beaten wife syndrome, she wasn't going to fess up.

I have to think there are ways to prove the guy is beating her, even without the mother saying as much...

It was out of Kate's hands, she acted on impulse. There's not much to say about what she did...

Impulse... Judging from the insurance thing, there was premeditation.

A girl on the run, a girl who has nothing but the clothes on her back, a girl who is so far removed from the little girl who innocently tried to steal a NKotB lunch bag would probably care quite a bit about some link to her past. Don't you think?

I could see that, sure. To the point of conspiring with dangerous bank robbers though? Doesn't sound like "Good Guy" material at all.
If she looked like Emerson, she'd probably get beaten every couple of episodes or so, just to remind her she's trash (of course, that's assuming she'd be popular like Emerson, or she probably wouldn't survive that long anyway: the Good Guys' Justice can be swift, on craphole island)...

Hell, I have a great upbringing and yet I still get jazzed when I visit home and check out my old box of toys in the basement.

How many innocent lives would you risk for them though?

You don't think so?
I mean, not really a phenomenon...it's just the most carnal response to something bad happening. Millions of people do it every year. It's bad, but it happens.

Of course it happens. And I have this feeling that calling it a mere "natural phenomenon" can't do much to help matters in that area. "Hey, it's not your fault! He pissed you off!"
The word "cavalier" comes to mind once again, but it feels a bit too nice and pretty for the matter, really...

they always go way out of their way to explain just how bad these 'guys' are. That's how they justify it to the viewers.

Well, I told you how I felt about that... I would hope you're not supposed to really be on board. A killer can be a fascinating character to follow, even sympathetic in many ways (there would be a bunch of other examples in fiction)... but actually justifying the guy's activities? Hmm.

He does some horrible things due to the addiction/code, but if he was just killing random people in the street, no one would sympathize with him.

I guess that's a mitigating factor as far as the audiences are concerned, yeah, especially since the show can make it clear the victims definitely are guilty as sin, but it's still murder in the end. And Dexter doesn't kill them for Great Justice either.

In season 5 of Dexter...

Spoiler

after the killing of Rita, he goes unhinged for a minute and kills some random in a bathroom. It is the first 'innocent' he kills in the series and it is forgotten about by the next episode. It could have been such a great story to tell, Dexter breaking his code and dealing with the consequences.

Spoiler

That season 5 premiere actually is the last episode I've watched of the show, in part because I figured they were just going for the easy shock value and wouldn't actually deal with the (quite annoying) implications. I was wary of the showrunner change already, and when the episode ended, I thought "yup, I think that's it for me."

I'm getting this framed.

Hey, when I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I admit as much. I just try not to be.

He is the man in black and every time we argue with him he is infecting us with his darkness.

Oh, you guys and your ever so adequate Lost analogies... How long before you start referring to Lost as "the Good Show"? It's such a fount of wisdom...

when Ben talked to Hurley about he taking care of people. He seems to not know where that came from, despite Hurley being the nicest and most concerned of other people's affairs in the show

And Ben would sure know all about that! And be the kindness expert, too. That's all Ben.

(and he didn't threaten people like Jack)

Hahaha! That's a interesting criteria for determining whether or not one qualifies as "caring"!

and then said he felt Ben saying 'done in another way' was so ridiculous he expected animals to come dancing out.

Yeah, thanks for... the paraphrase, I guess?
Even ignoring mythology lapse #452 ("before, people couldn't leave! ... well, except when they did, you know, with the sub...), the whole thing is so fucking forced and corny ("... they could leave, but let's say they couldn't, because we're going for a positive ending, here! oh, I feel like a new man, Hugo! a new character, even!").
Ah, Lost... Monster of elegance and subtlety until the end.

No TV show has ever been under the microscope eye like LOST.

You're implying actual scrutiny, there, and that clearly wasn't the case, overall... Or I guess you could call that "wiki-scrutiny": fans would examine every single pixel separately, but most would have no idea as to how they all fit together and simply (wrongly) assume they do because Darlton said so and "whoa, so many pixels! best show ever!"

Besides, there was TV before Lost. A lot of it. Many episodes of Star Trek, to cite an obvious example.

Sun and Jin were some of my favorite characters of the show.

Like I said earlier, the fact they generally had zilch to do certainly helped a lot.

did anybody know that what Eko whispers in Locke's ear isnt "Youre next" its "I saw... the... devil"

Again with that, LOSTnLOST?
I'm curious: are you merely arguing that it's what the actor actually said when they shot that scene, or that it's what the character really said, and Locke decided to be creative for some reason?

Ethan: No they're perfectly safe, I just dont wanna stick you with needles if I dont have to.

I reckon this is Ethans way of subconsciously redeeming himself in the FSW. Back on the island he stuck Claire with needles(Just watch Raised by Another) and now he is making amends and doing it the better way.

... Yeah, or it's just Lost being its usual oh-so-subtle-oh-so-clever self and dishing out gratuitous "irony!" moments...
See also: of course he'd get shot in the eye!

 

[WillyFive]

And Ben would sure know all about that! And be the kindness expert, too. That's all Ben.

Exactly. If there was one thing about Ben, it's that he payed a lot of attention.

Hahaha! That's a interesting criteria for determining whether or not one qualifies as "caring"!

Not really.

Yeah, thanks for... the paraphrase, I guess?
Even ignoring mythology lapse #452 ("before, people couldn't leave! ... well, except when they did, you know, with the sub...), the whole thing is so fucking forced and corny ("... they could leave, but let's say they couldn't, because we're going for a positive ending, here! oh, I feel like a new man, Hugo! a new character, even!").
Ah, Lost... Monster of elegance and subtlety until the end.

They 'left', only to break down emotionally, psychologically, and (in the case of Locke) die. They couldn't leave the island until the candidate was found and fulfilled. It's not forced, or corny. But it is simple and straight to the point. You have to stay on the island, and if you leave, you will face the consequences.

Which reminds me of how awesome the flight back was.

Getting Locke's onboard:

Getting Sayid onboard:

Hurley buying the empty seats:

and to top it all off, Lapidus suddenly realizing what he just walked into:

"We're not going to Guam, are we?"

It was like an excellent heist, fully controlled from parties we could see and could not see, excellently paced, expertly written, and incredibly suspenseful.

And it was not even halfway through the season. We may not see a new show as elegant and effective as Lost on Network TV for a long, long time.

Like I said earlier, the fact they generally had zilch to do certainly helped a lot.

They were important characters in the show, whether they were included in the team frequently or not was irrelevant on how good the characters were.

 

[oatmeal]

Good lord.

So many quotes.

Goddam.

Oh, okay. Thanks.
Well, that had nothing to do with that murder and all that other stuff that followed while she was on the run, right?

The murder caused her to be alone and on the run for years, and even after being apart of this community on the island, when she got off, her loneliness resumed. She could have lived happily ever after with the cop, or with Jack, but her conscience wouldn't let her.

Er... I don't know why you're saying this. If that's supposed to explain why Kate wouldn't trust Locke... well, that was after "the island moved and they realized he was right", so...
Anyway, my point was that she didn't go back to help the others but to fetch Claire. That was the motivation. A tiny bit less heroic (especially considering how she reacted to Locke's visit).

I misread that, I thought you were talking about the end of S.4 when Locke said they needed to move it, and did. Wasn't even thinking about Locke's visit.

She went back for someone else, though. It wasn't just for herself, she loved Aaron.

Wow.

One man's trash.

The dynamite? That actually sounds like the kind of stunt a character wouldn't pull unless they were already far gone over to the side of faith (faith in a convenient fate for them, here!)...

You could tell he was testing his theory, which is why Hurley ran off. It was a big moment for him. After his plan had failed, he decided to try and see what the island was capable of.

It panned out.

Curiously enough, considering he wouldn't allow the pregnant women to leave the island...

I didn't say he didn't thirst for power. He controlled everything. I wonder how many children had died in childbirth under his reign, it would be interesting to know that...seems like there might not have been as much pregnancy if everyone knew what could happen.

But since he led with an iron fist, it's not terribly surprising he didn't want to give his 'people' a chance to escape.

When I say the murder seems inconsequential, I don't mean there weren't any effects. Obviously, her life was affected, indeed.
What I mean is that it's as if that murder was merely "something that happened to her". Like an unfortunate accident. In the end, it appears no lessons were learned regarding that. In fact, there was no discernible guilt. And yeah, she even ended up pleading not guilty.
Damn. Seems awfully cavalier of her, and since the show didn't seem to give a damn either, awfully cavalier of Lost itself (and that particular death is just an example among others, like I said earlier).

One could argue that she had paid the price by becoming part of this 'island' thing. She lost everyone in her life, and then crash lands on an island and blah blah blah.

But I won't.

Was it really guilt over the murder, though?
As Lostpedia put it: "A few months into their marriage, she contacted the marshal, begging him to stop chasing her, but he said that either way she'd find she couldn't settle down. Sure enough, Kate soon discovered she couldn't deal with domestic life after a pregnancy scare. Surprise honeymoon tickets reminded Kate that she lacked a valid passport and couldn't continue lying to Kevin. She was forced to drug her husband, believing he suspected her as the fugitive she was, and reluctantly left him"
She sounds mostly... inconvenienced by her fugitive status. Worried that she'd eventually get caught. Like an innocent fugitive would be, really.

She knows she's guilty, but she's tired of running. And she thought she had something good for once with the cop, so she wanted to keep it going. But she knew that no matter what, she couldn't escape her past...until she found the island.

I have to think there are ways to prove the guy is beating her, even without the mother saying as much...

But the mother is still the victim, she would have to come out with it...and they never do. That's a pretty common theme in shows. Battered housewife.

Impulse... Judging from the insurance thing, there was premeditation.

Premeditated impulse. She had enough, and decided to do it.

I could see that, sure. To the point of conspiring with dangerous bank robbers though? Doesn't sound like "Good Guy" material at all.
If she looked like Emerson, she'd probably get beaten every couple of episodes or so, just to remind her she's trash (of course, that's assuming she'd be popular like Emerson, or she probably wouldn't survive that long anyway: the Good Guys' Justice can be swift, on craphole island)...

She isn't too bright? I dunno. She wasn't on the signatory card, so she couldn't get into the box. She knows how to use people, so she used some dude and his gang of thieves and they went in. It would have been simpler had they not decided to start shooting people.

How many innocent lives would you risk for them though?

A lot.

Kate went in thinking that there'd be no violence, just get in and out.

Well, I told you how I felt about that... I would hope you're not supposed to really be on board. A killer can be a fascinating character to follow, even sympathetic in many ways (there would be a bunch of other examples in fiction)... but actually justifying the guy's activities? Hmm.

In a world with the death penalty, and all of the varying opinions on it, are you really surprised?

Spoiler

That season 5 premiere actually is the last episode I've watched of the show, in part because I figured they were just going for the easy shock value and wouldn't actually deal with the (quite annoying) implications. I was wary of the showrunner change already, and when the episode ended, I thought "yup, I think that's it for me."

I'd recommend waiting to see how season 6 fares before watching anymore.

Hey... I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

Going to frame that too. I took some liberties, like when a newspaper writes of something "Not the best show on TV, but it's not terrible."
And it gets quoted as "the best show on TV"

You're implying actual scrutiny, there, and that clearly wasn't the case, overall... Or I guess you could call that "wiki-scrutiny": fans would examine every single pixel separately, but most would have no idea as to how they all fit together and simply (wrongly) assume they do because Darlton said so and "whoa, so many pixels! best show ever!"

Besides, there was TV before Lost. A lot of it. Many episodes of Star Trek, to cite an obvious example.

"Wiki-Scrutiny" - I like that.

There was TV before LOST, but LOST propelled 'wiki-scrutiny' in the internet age and made it mainstream.

Star Trek was always a very niche show, for nerdlingers. Bwaha.

 

[Erigu]

Exactly. If there was one thing about Ben, it's that he payed a lot of attention.

Yeah, he obviously kept his eye on Hugo.

They 'left', only to break down emotionally, psychologically, and (in the case of Locke) die.

Hey, Tom just went to spend some time with his boyfriend!

They couldn't leave the island until the candidate was found and fulfilled. It's not forced, or corny. But it is simple and straight to the point.

It's also something you just made up.

You have to stay on the island, and if you leave, you will face the consequences.

Aaron!

It was like an excellent heist, fully controlled from parties we could see and could not see, excellently paced, expertly written, and incredibly suspenseful.

It was contrived and nonsensical.

We may not see a new show as elegant and effective as Lost on Network TV for a long, long time.

Ha!

They were important characters in the show

Officially, yeah.

whether they were included in the team frequently or not was irrelevant on how good the characters were.

I already explained myself... But it's not like we'd agree about how good (/bad) the characters were anyway, right?

She could have lived happily ever after with the cop, or with Jack, but her conscience wouldn't let her.

Again, I haven't seen much in the way of guilt, really.

She went back for someone else, though. It wasn't just for herself, she loved Aaron.

Let's hope so! ^_^;

You could tell he was testing his theory

Well, yeah. Just saying it was so dangerous a test you could say Jack was far gone already.

It panned out.

For some reason.

since he led with an iron fist, it's not terribly surprising he didn't want to give his 'people' a chance to escape.

And at the same time, we're told that he was concerned about how they perceived him, with that whole submarine ordeal. There would also be what happened with Widmore: clearly, the leader isn't above whatever laws (rrrrules!) they have.
And I'm not sure what to make of Richard's remark to Locke: "Ben has been wasting our time with novelties like fertility problems." Strong words, there, Richard! Also, looking for a way to keep your pregnant women from dying is a "novelty"? Huh!
What a mess...

She knows she's guilty, but she's tired of running.

Like I said: not seeing anything about guilt, there...

But the mother is still the victim, she would have to come out with it...

Really? Even with clear evidence that she's beaten?

Premeditated impulse.

Okay. ^_^;

A lot.

Damn. Just what is in that box of yours??

In a world with the death penalty, and all of the varying opinions on it, are you really surprised?

Well, it's not that widespread / common anymore, fortunately...
But no, I'm not exactly "surprised", no... Doesn't mean I don't find the idea disturbing.

I'd recommend waiting to see how season 6 fares before watching anymore.

Oh, like I said, I wasn't going to watch more anyway... I'm fine with the show being four seasons long.

I took some liberties, like when a newspaper writes of something "Not the best show on TV, but it's not terrible."
And it gets quoted as "the best show on TV"

I like those, too.

There was TV before LOST, but LOST propelled 'wiki-scrutiny' in the internet age and made it mainstream.

Just a matter of timing. Twin Peaks would have done that, the X-Files would have done that...

Star Trek was always a very niche show

Sure, but the level of scrutiny, man... And they didn't even wait for wikis!

 

[oatmeal]

And I'm not sure what to make of Richard's remark to Locke: "Ben has been wasting our time with novelties like fertility problems." Strong words, there, Richard! Also, looking for a way to keep your pregnant women from dying is a "novelty"? Huh!
What a mess...

Novelty is a strange word. But it was a small community, and small communities don't really pump out too many kids, so perhaps Ben was allocating too many resources towards it?

Really? Even with clear evidence that she's beaten?

Definitely. The victim would have to admit to it, she can say "I walked into a door" all day long. It wouldn't matter what the daughter said.

I like those, too.

I have the weirdest boner.

Just a matter of timing. Twin Peaks would have done that, the X-Files would have done that...

Absolutely. I never said it had to do with the quality of LOST, it was a show at the right place, right time. And ABC made some amazing choices with it, including pushing it onto iTunes rentals.

 

[Erigu]

The victim would have to admit to it, she can say "I walked into a door" all day long. It wouldn't matter what the daughter said.

I was thinking of filming the thing, for example.

Also,Mawaru-Penguindrum 12 was... interesting.
Broaden your horizons, people!

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Also in "Further Instruction" Locke's episode from season 3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxOA10jlZr8 6:53 onwards, the whole thing is basically discussing why MiB chose Locke.

MiB: "Its not personal"

Locke: "Whats not personal!?"

Also the moment where he tries to shoot him but doesnt is just like at the end of season 3 where he tries to shoot Jack but doesnt... Locke is a farmer.

brilliant

 

[oatmeal]

I was thinking of filming the thing, for example.

Also,Mawaru-Penguindrum 12 was... interesting.
Broaden your horizons, people!

I can't get over the shoddy artstyle of 99% of anime.

It's hard to take it seriously.

 

[Saren is Bad]

Gotdamnit shouldn't have come in here. Nostalgia overload...I fuckin' miss LOST ;-(

 

[oatmeal]

Gotdamnit shouldn't have come in here. Nostalgia overload...I fuckin' miss LOST ;-(

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

I was thinking of filming the thing, for example.

Also,Mawaru-Penguindrum 12 was... interesting.
Broaden your horizons, people!

there's that condescension again. you comparing some low budget anime show to lost is simply a joke.

 

[mocolostrocolos]

The Fuck is wrong with Erigu?

 

[oatmeal]

The Fuck is wrong with Erigu?

He claims to think that LOST is bad and has bad writing.

I don't buy it.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

brilliant

All the dreams are from the MiB too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C962Xm0Si8g&feature=related If you listen at 13:44 - 13:50 you can hear the chain noises the monster makes.

The MiB also speaks through Mr Eko later in the episode telling John he is a hunter.

*sigh* so tragic.

Apart from the polar bear scene I think Further Instructions is underrated.

 

[bigboss370]

one of my most favorite things about this show was the smoke monster, specifically how it started out as such an intriguing mystery with the sounds it made, and then when they finally revealed it...it was still a mystery!

one day i'm gonna go through the show all over again, and just try and gather all the theories and mysteries in one place.

 

[WillyFive]

Yeah, he obviously kept his eye on Hugo.

Yes?

It was contrived and nonsensical.

*watches again*

Nope.

Also, Hurley's guitar case was funny.

Ha!

I feel your pain.

Officially, yeah.

Well, yes. Officially Elvis, JFK and Michael Jackson are all dead. But if you are so rogue that official means nothing to you, then join the 9/11 conspiracy club. They also have a good eye for details.

I already explained myself... But it's not like we'd agree about how good (/bad) the characters were anyway, right?

There's no reason for us to always disagree with each other. After all, you don't seem to be as offended by Sun and Jin than the rest of the show.

 

[Erigu]

lost is simply a joke.

Sorry, we were just talking about that with oatmeal, so...
Also, I'm beginning to suspect you're not answering my question about your allergies just so there'd be two anniversaries and two cakes next year! You so crafty, evil solrac 3.0.

All the dreams are from the MiB too.

Of course!
(and he was a bit drunk, for that Charlie episode)

Apart from the polar bear scene I think Further Instructions is underrated.

Yeah, I thought it was cool how we wasted time for absolutely no reason on Locke's inability to speak (although it's kinda amazing they managed to do even better with Sun right smack in the final season) and on that sweat lodge business ("I should look after the other people who were at the Swan station when I caused it to explode/implode? heeeey, now, there's an idea I wouldn't have gotten without some supernatural help, indeed!") and on saving Eko's life from a no-budget-bear just so he would be unceremoniously killed off anyway right after.

Also, Hurley's guitar case was funny.

It sure was funny how Jacob decided that simply giving that piece of paper to Dôgen on the island (or simply explaining things, of course, but Jacob apparently likes giving short and somewhat ambiguous lists in person) would be far too pedestrian. Nope: gotta hide it inside a huge ankh and give it to Hugo on mainland!

Well, yes. Officially Elvis, JFK and Michael Jackson are all dead. But if you are so rogue that official means nothing to you, then join the 9/11 conspiracy club.

Ho ho ho.
Anyway, sorry, I keep forgetting: what I meant is that the characters, while "officially" part of the main cast (because they were there from day one) spent most of the show on the bench, absolutely out of things to do.
In fact, listing the deeds of the various main characters in the last season is an amusing experiment, overall...

 

[WillyFive]

In fact, listing the deeds of the various main characters in the last season is an amusing experiment, overall...

If you are that big a fan, then I guess it could be.

 

[Erigu]

Well, it's not like it takes long, really.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Watched The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham and The Other Women today.

One of them is an absloute classic and perhaps a top 10 episode.

The other is probably one of only 2 episodes in the whole show that I just dont like.