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- Thread starter BenjaminBirdie
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Yeah, I marathon'd the show recently as well (never watched a single episode before that) and have to agree with this. From season to season, everything that happens is just so irrational.Raist said:Sooo, I finished watching the whole show again a couple of days before christmas. Took me 3 weeks or so for the full show.
As I kinda expected before starting my second viewing, it was far, far less enjoyable this time around. And yeah, watching all seasons back to back like this, the whole story doesn't make any fucking sense in the end :lol
Ironically, the series is great if you look at it episodically. I echo the sentiments of most people in this thread when it comes to Greatest Hits or The Constant. But as a whole, there are just so many things that don't connect. For example, I seriously do not understand the evolution of the Others from Season 1 to Season 6.
It seems that the writers cared about what they were doing, tried to go in several different ways, and wound up choosing the path that incorporates, albeit loosely, all of their previous efforts.
Season 6 causes the whole series to make sense: the show has always been about death, facing it, dealing with it, and moving on.
Season 1. Jack is transporting the body of his dead father who has had a powerful hold on his life; Kate is running away from the law after killing her stepfather and because of that is being kept away from her dying mother; Sawyer is trying to get revenge for the death of his parents but has adopted the guise of the person that did the killing; Michael is forced into parenthood after the death of his ex-wife;
(this is where it gets less literal)
Hurley is the unluckiest man alive, bringing death and destruction to everyone he is close to (and is ultimately given the power to talk to the dead); Jin and Sun have lost their marriage and are starting new lives together.. once they finally come back around they are split apart by space, and then by time, only to reconnect right before meeting their end by choosing to stay together; Charlie's pure and naive youth as well as his band and his relationship to his brother are "killed" by his heroin addiction and is forced to claw himself back into some kind of new identity.
And the great antithesis: Locke, who has been given a new life by the island, by restoring his ability to walk.. but he also is still coping with the life altering manipulations and betrayal of his father. By the end of the series, he has his own father killed, has to cope with the loss of his true love, and kills himself/is killed and his likeness used by a villain to murder.
Sure, the second half of season 2 and the first half of season 3 loses its way, but in the end I believe there is still a strong central theme that was around even at the show's inception. I know lindelcuse has already talked about that, but I think it was also made expressly clear in the characters and their development.
I think, like most others watching Lost, we were expecting something else, some different kind of payoff.. for me, I was less concerned about finding out the identity and motivation of the smoke monster and more interested in the redemption of John Locke.. for a while Jack was only in my rearview, assuming that the writers/showrunners had shifted the role of show hero/lead to Locke. But it was only after Season 6 and the reveal that Locke had been completely and incontrovertibly killed - dead is dead - and then having Jack take up his mantle did it really hit me that Jack was the driving force for the entire show. I think he learned that faith was just as significant as cold hard facts, and both were required to get him to accept the loss of his father and also to step out from under his shadow.
Even though I haven't thought it about as much as some of you guys, Lost really was my favorite show. I don't know if anything will ever touch it. It gripped me for six straight years, year in and year out.. my fascination with the storytelling and the characters pulled me through, what was it? eight months of hiatus.. how did we ever make it so long between seasons, guys? It's not something I can immediately rewatch at any time like old The Office or The Simpsons episodes but it is a long form and layered (as in, going deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole) style of storytelling that is unique and is most notable for how it kept us all guessing and salivating for more week in and week out.
Season 1. Jack is transporting the body of his dead father who has had a powerful hold on his life; Kate is running away from the law after killing her stepfather and because of that is being kept away from her dying mother; Sawyer is trying to get revenge for the death of his parents but has adopted the guise of the person that did the killing; Michael is forced into parenthood after the death of his ex-wife;
(this is where it gets less literal)
Hurley is the unluckiest man alive, bringing death and destruction to everyone he is close to (and is ultimately given the power to talk to the dead); Jin and Sun have lost their marriage and are starting new lives together.. once they finally come back around they are split apart by space, and then by time, only to reconnect right before meeting their end by choosing to stay together; Charlie's pure and naive youth as well as his band and his relationship to his brother are "killed" by his heroin addiction and is forced to claw himself back into some kind of new identity.
And the great antithesis: Locke, who has been given a new life by the island, by restoring his ability to walk.. but he also is still coping with the life altering manipulations and betrayal of his father. By the end of the series, he has his own father killed, has to cope with the loss of his true love, and kills himself/is killed and his likeness used by a villain to murder.
Sure, the second half of season 2 and the first half of season 3 loses its way, but in the end I believe there is still a strong central theme that was around even at the show's inception. I know lindelcuse has already talked about that, but I think it was also made expressly clear in the characters and their development.
I think, like most others watching Lost, we were expecting something else, some different kind of payoff.. for me, I was less concerned about finding out the identity and motivation of the smoke monster and more interested in the redemption of John Locke.. for a while Jack was only in my rearview, assuming that the writers/showrunners had shifted the role of show hero/lead to Locke. But it was only after Season 6 and the reveal that Locke had been completely and incontrovertibly killed - dead is dead - and then having Jack take up his mantle did it really hit me that Jack was the driving force for the entire show. I think he learned that faith was just as significant as cold hard facts, and both were required to get him to accept the loss of his father and also to step out from under his shadow.
Even though I haven't thought it about as much as some of you guys, Lost really was my favorite show. I don't know if anything will ever touch it. It gripped me for six straight years, year in and year out.. my fascination with the storytelling and the characters pulled me through, what was it? eight months of hiatus.. how did we ever make it so long between seasons, guys? It's not something I can immediately rewatch at any time like old The Office or The Simpsons episodes but it is a long form and layered (as in, going deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole) style of storytelling that is unique and is most notable for how it kept us all guessing and salivating for more week in and week out.
How was it proof that they had a plan, exactly? Please explain.Drealmcc0y said:Adam and eve is proof they had a plan.
It wasn't. Quite on the contrary, it showed that they really weren't above BSing their audience.
evil solrac v3.0
Member
Erigu said:How was it proof that they had a plan, exactly? Please explain.
It wasn't. Quite on the contrary, it showed that they really weren't above BSing their audience.
you're not even making sense right now, you're just being a contrarian for the sake of it. how was it not proof they had a plan?
My brother has been watching this for the first time on Netflix recently. I've consistently said that season one is the best, and for a first time watcher that may be true, but catching a few episodes has reminded me how goddamn annoying a lot of these people are. Holy shit I just want half of these motherfuckers to die already.
evil solrac v3.0 said:you're not even making sense right now, you're just being a contrarian for the sake of it. how was it not proof they had a plan?
Because there's not much easier than throwing some weird shit into a show and then figuring out a way to explain it 5 seasons later.
Drealmcc0y
Banned
SuperBonk said:Yeah, I marathon'd the show recently as well (never watched a single episode before that) and have to agree with this. From season to season, everything that happens is just so irrational.
Ironically, the series is great if you look at it episodically. I echo the sentiments of most people in this thread when it comes to Greatest Hits or The Constant. But as a whole, there are just so many things that don't connect. For example, I seriously do not understand the evolution of the Others from Season 1 to Season 6.
It seems that the writers cared about what they were doing, tried to go in several different ways, and wound up choosing the path that incorporates, albeit loosely, all of their previous efforts.
I think the others make sense.
The only problem I have is, is that in season 1, Ethan was a bit too crazy and they seemed almost supernatural.
Drealmcc0y
Banned
Darlton said on AtS commentary that when they introduced adam and eve that they knew these 2 people had pivotal roles in the genesis of lost. I believe 'em.
They were origin of it all, much like adam and eve in the bible were the origin of humanity.
Then add in the fact that they had black and white stones just like in the pilots "two players, two sides".
It is clear they had a plan.
They were origin of it all, much like adam and eve in the bible were the origin of humanity.
Then add in the fact that they had black and white stones just like in the pilots "two players, two sides".
It is clear they had a plan.
Well, it might be a bit difficult to come up with a consistent explanation, depending on the case... but here, we're just talking about two skeletons in a cave. There was a number of possible explanations for those, really. And that includes "they were just evidence that other people lived/were stranded there" as there was no reason (no in-universe reason, anyway) to believe they would be relevant to the plot.Clevinger said:Because there's not much easier than throwing some weird shit into a show and then figuring out a way to explain it 5 seasons later.
So when the writers said that would be "evidence" they knew where they were going, that was nonsense already.
But then, they even went ahead and came up with an inconsistent explanation (that was conveniently edited out of that flashback, but the skeletons weren't found next to each other like that, and they couldn't be 2000 year-old corpses based on the clothes). And that was after teasing their audience about supposed "hints" ("lost time", huh?).
That's clearly a matter of blind faith, at this point, yeah.Drealmcc0y said:Darlton said on AtS commentary that when they introduced adam and eve that they knew these 2 people had pivotal roles in the genesis of lost. I believe 'em.
"Oh, boy, it's like they always knew there would be some kind of conflict later on! Mind blown!"Then add in the fact that they had black and white stones just like in the pilots "two players, two sides".
It is clear they had a plan.
Come the fuck on...
Erigu said:Well, it might be a bit difficult to come up with a consistent explanation, depending on the case... but here, we're just talking about two skeletons in a cave. There was a number of possible explanations for those, really. And that includes "they were just evidence that other people lived/were stranded there" as there was no reason (no in-universe reason, anyway) to believe they would be relevant to the plot.
So when the writers said that would be "evidence" they knew where they were going, that was nonsense already.
But then, they even went ahead and came up with an inconsistent explanation (that was conveniently edited out of that flashback, but the skeletons weren't found next to each other like that, and they couldn't be 2000 year-old corpses based on the clothes). And that was after teasing their audience about supposed "hints" ("lost time", huh?).
That's clearly a matter of blind faith, at this point, yeah.
"Oh, boy, it's like they always knew there would be some kind of conflict later on! Mind blown!"
Come the fuck on...
Just out of curiosity, what could the writers have done that would have convinced you that they had a sufficient plan for what was going to happen, and how thoroughly and concretely do writers need to plan things ahead of time to not get accused of just making things up as they go?
As far as "Adam" and "Eve" were concerned, nothing. Like I said above, there was no way those skeletons could have been "evidence" of a plan, as there were many, many possible ways to resolve that one.Yaweee said:Just out of curiosity, what could the writers have done that would have convinced you that they had a sufficient plan for what was going to happen
If you're talking in general... 'Not sure how to answer that one.
Should I give you an example of what I would consider actual evidence that the writer had planned something years in advance? That wouldn't be from Lost, but I guess I could do that... 'Would be a bit long though...
About as thoroughly as those writers keep claiming that they do indeed plan things ahead of time?and how thoroughly and concretely do writers need to plan things ahead of time to not get accused of just making things up as they go?
I don't mind writers making shit up as they go, as long as they do it somewhat carefully in order to avoid gross inconsistencies and don't pretend they actually know where they're going with that.
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
hey I'm finally able to get shit like this now!Solo said:Like the Cylons, right?
This whole page has happened before, and it will happen again.
I'm sure you have time. Indulge me.Erigu said:If you're talking in general... 'Not sure how to answer that one.
Should I give you an example of what I would consider actual evidence that the writer had planned something years in advance? That wouldn't be from Lost, but I guess I could do that... 'Would be a bit long though..
Hey, I also need to farm the CRIMBCO Headquarters before rollover, man. My time is valuable.Catalix said:I'm sure you have time. Indulge me.
Thing is, the example I'm thinking of right now would be the whole deal with the chairs in Bokurano (as I was impressed at how well it came together in the end despite the length of the series), and on top of being long/convoluted, it would be quite spoiler-ish and that bothers me a bit.
Then again, if you think you wouldn't read the manga anyway, I guess that's not an issue...
evil solrac v3.0
Member
Erigu said:Hey, I also need to farm the CRIMBCO Headquarters before rollover, man. My time is valuable.
Thing is, the example I'm thinking of right now would be the whole deal with the chairs in Bokurano (as I was impressed at how well it came together in the end despite the length of the series), and on top of being long/convoluted, it would be quite spoiler-ish and that bothers me a bit.
Then again, if you think you wouldn't read the manga anyway, I guess that's not an issue...
you're just bullshitting at this point, answer the question.
Because there's not much easier than throwing some weird shit into a show and then figuring out a way to explain it 5 seasons later.
lol.
Will you calm down, kiddo? I said it would take me some time to write something up. Surely, you learned patience while watching your favorite show?evil solrac v3.0 said:you're just bullshitting at this point, answer the question.
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
Honestly, I have zero desire to read manga in general (at the moment, anyway. not really my thing). But I am still interested in its relevance to your golden standard. So spill away, no regrets from me.
What exactly makes Bokurano's story structure and perceived planning a cut above the rest?
What exactly makes Bokurano's story structure and perceived planning a cut above the rest?
I know this is one of the hallmark internet insults, but Erigu truly seems like the kind of guy who has zero friends in real life. If you act at all like your internet persona, I can't see anyone putting up with you.
Having all of this on Netflix is so convenient. I'm going to start watching random episodes as I fall asleep.
Having all of this on Netflix is so convenient. I'm going to start watching random episodes as I fall asleep.
SpeedingUptoStop
will totally Facebook friend you! *giggle* *LOL*
Hands down the best post in the past couple days here.Iceman said:Season 6 causes the whole series to make sense: the show has always been about death, facing it, dealing with it, and moving on.
Season 1. Jack is transporting the body of his dead father who has had a powerful hold on his life; Kate is running away from the law after killing her stepfather and because of that is being kept away from her dying mother; Sawyer is trying to get revenge for the death of his parents but has adopted the guise of the person that did the killing; Michael is forced into parenthood after the death of his ex-wife;
(this is where it gets less literal)
Hurley is the unluckiest man alive, bringing death and destruction to everyone he is close to (and is ultimately given the power to talk to the dead); Jin and Sun have lost their marriage and are starting new lives together.. once they finally come back around they are split apart by space, and then by time, only to reconnect right before meeting their end by choosing to stay together; Charlie's pure and naive youth as well as his band and his relationship to his brother are "killed" by his heroin addiction and is forced to claw himself back into some kind of new identity.
And the great antithesis: Locke, who has been given a new life by the island, by restoring his ability to walk.. but he also is still coping with the life altering manipulations and betrayal of his father. By the end of the series, he has his own father killed, has to cope with the loss of his true love, and kills himself/is killed and his likeness used by a villain to murder.
Sure, the second half of season 2 and the first half of season 3 loses its way, but in the end I believe there is still a strong central theme that was around even at the show's inception. I know lindelcuse has already talked about that, but I think it was also made expressly clear in the characters and their development.
I think, like most others watching Lost, we were expecting something else, some different kind of payoff.. for me, I was less concerned about finding out the identity and motivation of the smoke monster and more interested in the redemption of John Locke.. for a while Jack was only in my rearview, assuming that the writers/showrunners had shifted the role of show hero/lead to Locke. But it was only after Season 6 and the reveal that Locke had been completely and incontrovertibly killed - dead is dead - and then having Jack take up his mantle did it really hit me that Jack was the driving force for the entire show. I think he learned that faith was just as significant as cold hard facts, and both were required to get him to accept the loss of his father and also to step out from under his shadow.
Even though I haven't thought it about as much as some of you guys, Lost really was my favorite show. I don't know if anything will ever touch it. It gripped me for six straight years, year in and year out.. my fascination with the storytelling and the characters pulled me through, what was it? eight months of hiatus.. how did we ever make it so long between seasons, guys? It's not something I can immediately rewatch at any time like old The Office or The Simpsons episodes but it is a long form and layered (as in, going deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole) style of storytelling that is unique and is most notable for how it kept us all guessing and salivating for more week in and week out.
I think it was more proof that they didnt have a plan at all really. Now I havent been following the post LOST fact finding but didnt Jack say they were dead for about 60yrs? Across the Sea would suggest that they were dead far longer than that.evil solrac v3.0 said:you're not even making sense right now, you're just being a contrarian for the sake of it. how was it not proof they had a plan?
Has there been any explanation that would explain this rather glaring plot hole?
Isnt it rather obvious that they didnt have everything planned from the get go. For one they didnt actually know if this show would make it pass the pilot. The werent even 100% the show was going to end at season 6 until the 3rd season or so. There are always unknowns (like Ecko not liking Hawaii) so planning everything in advance would be dangerous since any one thing (like Walt growing three feet in a month) could throw everything off.Erigu said:I don't mind writers making shit up as they go, as long as they do it somewhat carefully in order to avoid gross inconsistencies and don't pretend they actually know where they're going with that.
Im actually surprised people are arguing that they DIDNT make stuff up quite frankly. Of course they did. They had to.
BuggyDClown
Member
Doesn't mean much. They said from the start they had a 5 season plan. The seasons 1-3 were all about 24 episodes. They only had two more seasons of content to bring us, ABC made them divide that up into 3 seasons. Seems like ABC got what they wanted and the writers got to keep the story to it's originally planned length..GqueB. said:I think it was more proof that they didnt have a plan at all really. Now I havent been following the post LOST fact finding but didnt Jack say they were dead for about 60yrs? Across the Sea would suggest that they were dead far longer than that.
Has there been any explanation that would explain this rather glaring plot hole?
Isnt it rather obvious that they didnt have everything planned from the get go. For one they didnt actually know if this show would make it pass the pilot. The werent even 100% the show was going to end at season 6 until the 3rd season or so. There are always unknowns (like Ecko not liking Hawaii) so planning everything in advance would be dangerous since any one thing (like Walt growing three feet in a month) could throw everything off.
Im actually surprised people are arguing that they DIDNT make stuff up quite frankly. Of course they did. They had to.
That being said, I would wager to guess by mid 1st season they had the major pieces of the story done. Then they left room to wiggle, not all stories work well when seen over the air, even if they sound good on paper, some don't mesh well with audience and others might take on a life of their own.
Overall I'd say they did a fantastic job of balancing the writing so hey didn't stray from their end goals or major plot points, but left enough room to change the story around multiple factors.
EDIT: also it was 40 years. I shrug it off to jack not bing a forensic scientist. Meaning, he doesn't know wtf he was talking about. It was just a way of throwing out a timeline to a period far earlier in the seres.
Although I don't believe they had that set in stone. Instead I believe they had chosen to go with an arbitrary number old enough so that they are fully decomposed and they can then use it as a fill in the blank for a set up later in the series.
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
Indeed. Good grasp of the show's various themes and character arcs. Just reminds me how beautifully they were woven together. Anytime I read a synopsis like that, makes me miss the journey all over again.SpeedingUptoStop said:Hands down the best post in the past couple days here.
Catalix said:Indeed. Good grasp of the show's various themes and character arcs. Just reminds me how beautifully they were woven together. Anytime I read a synopsis like that, makes me miss the journey all over again.
Brita!
brandonh83
Banned
Iceman said:Season 6 causes the whole series to make sense: the show has always been about death, facing it, dealing with it, and moving on.
Season 1. Jack is transporting the body of his dead father who has had a powerful hold on his life; Kate is running away from the law after killing her stepfather and because of that is being kept away from her dying mother; Sawyer is trying to get revenge for the death of his parents but has adopted the guise of the person that did the killing; Michael is forced into parenthood after the death of his ex-wife;
(this is where it gets less literal)
Hurley is the unluckiest man alive, bringing death and destruction to everyone he is close to (and is ultimately given the power to talk to the dead); Jin and Sun have lost their marriage and are starting new lives together.. once they finally come back around they are split apart by space, and then by time, only to reconnect right before meeting their end by choosing to stay together; Charlie's pure and naive youth as well as his band and his relationship to his brother are "killed" by his heroin addiction and is forced to claw himself back into some kind of new identity.
And the great antithesis: Locke, who has been given a new life by the island, by restoring his ability to walk.. but he also is still coping with the life altering manipulations and betrayal of his father. By the end of the series, he has his own father killed, has to cope with the loss of his true love, and kills himself/is killed and his likeness used by a villain to murder.
Sure, the second half of season 2 and the first half of season 3 loses its way, but in the end I believe there is still a strong central theme that was around even at the show's inception. I know lindelcuse has already talked about that, but I think it was also made expressly clear in the characters and their development.
I think, like most others watching Lost, we were expecting something else, some different kind of payoff.. for me, I was less concerned about finding out the identity and motivation of the smoke monster and more interested in the redemption of John Locke.. for a while Jack was only in my rearview, assuming that the writers/showrunners had shifted the role of show hero/lead to Locke. But it was only after Season 6 and the reveal that Locke had been completely and incontrovertibly killed - dead is dead - and then having Jack take up his mantle did it really hit me that Jack was the driving force for the entire show. I think he learned that faith was just as significant as cold hard facts, and both were required to get him to accept the loss of his father and also to step out from under his shadow.
Even though I haven't thought it about as much as some of you guys, Lost really was my favorite show. I don't know if anything will ever touch it. It gripped me for six straight years, year in and year out.. my fascination with the storytelling and the characters pulled me through, what was it? eight months of hiatus.. how did we ever make it so long between seasons, guys? It's not something I can immediately rewatch at any time like old The Office or The Simpsons episodes but it is a long form and layered (as in, going deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole) style of storytelling that is unique and is most notable for how it kept us all guessing and salivating for more week in and week out.
I love how the island could literally be seen as a force that governs life and death. Mother even says that the light is "life, death, and rebirth." I still can't believe that I'm one of the few people that ever talks about how the island's power could very well be the actual cycle of life-- when and how everyone is born, when and how everyone dies, and what direction they go in after death.
That's more or less why the writers didn't try to explain what the light is in literal terms. It's not something that can be put into words beyond "life, death, rebirth." In a way, the characters died and were reborn into the afterlife that they created (or rather, that the island created) but it was Jack and pretty much only Jack that had to let go and die on a note of faith/sacrifice before they could all be reunited.
There's really no telling how long their souls wandered the afterlife aimlessly, and completely lost, before Jack finally reached Christian's coffin, his constant. What I like about season 6 was how ambiguous it was about the afterlife-verse. Again we have no idea how long their souls wandered about; it's just that the last season only gave us the window into the period of time in the afterlife that mattered within the context of the story.
Cheesemeister
Member
brandonh83 said:There's really no telling how long their souls wandered the afterlife aimlessly, and completely lost, before Jack finally reached Christian's coffin, his constant.
Aha! Desmond Hume WAS Faraday's constant. *slaps forehead*
I think you might be missing out on some good stuff... I mean, most manga are shit, but that's just Sturgeon's Law at work: there are soooo many titles out there that you wouldn't risk a shortage of great stories anytime soon.Catalix said:Honestly, I have zero desire to read manga in general (at the moment, anyway. not really my thing).
That being said, I realize some people simply aren't interested in the comic book medium, so I won't try to convert you or anything, don't worry. :lol
"Above the rest", I wouldn't go there, but "above Lost", there's simply no question...What exactly makes Bokurano's story structure and perceived planning a cut above the rest?
Again, I'm going to SPOIL some Bokurano "mysteries". Some could be guessed before the reveal relatively easily if you're paying attention, others not so much. It's not like said mysteries are the point of the series, far from it, but, y'know... That's still a part of the enjoyment that goes the way of the dodo.
(then again, if you went ahead and checked the Wikipedia article already... damnit, Wikipedia... I know spoilers are fair game as far as you're concerned, but gratuitous spoilers are gratuitous)
... he said, before copy/pasting part of the Wikipedia summary:
"During a summer camp, 15 children, 8 males and 7 females, find a grotto by the sea. Deep within they discover working computers and some electronic equipment, and later the owner, a man who introduces himself as "Kokopelli". Kokopelli claims to be a programmer working on a brand new game, in which a large robot has to defend the Earth against fifteen alien invasions. He persuades the children to test the game and enter into a contract. All but one of them agree, and a moment later they mysteriously awaken on the shore, believing what happened was just a dream.
That night, two giant robots appear suddenly by the beach. They find Kokopelli already inside and controlling the black robot in order to defeat the white enemy robot. During battle, he gives the children a brief tutorial on how to pilot the robot as he destroys the enemy. Once he has finished, he tells the children that they are on their own now and sends them back to the beach. As the children are teleported out, one child observes Kokopelli whispering "I'm sorry".
The next night, a small creature calling himself "Koyemshi" appears and claims to be their guide. He then teleports the children into the black robot."
OK, so...
Out of the 15 kids, 14 had "entered the contract" (the youngest was told by her brother not to take part in the game... the guy is a bit of an ass) by accepting Kokopelli's invitation to touch some kind of plate.
After Kokopelli's fight, when Koyemshi teleports the kids inside the cockpit of the robot, 14 chairs appear out of thin air: they're seats modeled after each of the pilots' memories/thoughts. It takes a few moments for the kids to all find "their" chair, especially considering one of the chair is actually... a baby bed. One of the girls, Maki, goes "oh, that's me!", ignores the obvious "what, you're pregos or something?" mockery, and explains that her adoptive mother is finally expecting a child, and she can't wait for her baby brother to be born, so...
Of course, nothing is as it seems (TM), starting with the supposed "game"...
The kids have 14 fights ahead of them, one for each pilot, and the stakes turn out to be... Well, if they lose a fight, the world ends right there and then. The kicker being that even if the designated pilot wins his/her fight, he/she will drop dead right after his/her victory. And of course, there's absolutely no way to simply throw the game. What's done is done, and the pilots are doomed: they will die in the next few months, no matter what. The best they can do is try and make sure the rest of the world doesn't die along with them.
And that's what the manga is about: you get to see how the kids cope with the horrible and seemingly arbitrary hand they've been dealt, how they spend their last days, with the story switching its focus from one character to the other as they win the consecutive battles and their little circle keeps shrinking with each victory.
Thematically, it's depressing as fuck, but also really well written, and a great deal deeper than the Lost hogwash.
But the "nothing is as it seems" extends beyond that, and there are some plot twists here and there so the readers will have something else on their mind than suicide. That's quality service, right there.
For one thing, some scenes show Koyemshi secretly meeting what appears to be an accomplice within the ranks of the kids.
Also, the characters eventually realize that their robot has some kind of mask on its head-analogue with a certain number of light dots on it, one dot for each remaining pilot... Thing is, right before dying, a pilot named Chizu who tried to use the robot to murder her rapists (long story) tells the other kids to take a good look at those dots. And 10 minutes later, two dots disappear: Chizu's and her unborn child's. The numbers don't add up anymore, and they realize one of them didn't enter the contract (on top of the little sister mentioned above, that is).
From the readers' perspective, the obvious conclusion would be that Koyemshi's accomplice is the odd one out, but things are actually more complicated than that...
As we've seen, each pilot had his/her chair, but:
Maki's baby bed was actually the seat Chizu thought up for her unborn child.
Koyemshi's accomplice stole Maki's true chair, the one she almost picked before spotting the baby bed, back in the first volume. You can actually catch a glimpse of an identical chair in Maki's room, in the background of one panel. A subtle hint for eagle-eyed readers. Also, when a pilot has to fight, his/her seat moves to the center of the elliptic arc formed by the 14 chairs.. and when it was Maki's turn, she wondered why "her" baby bed didn't move. Of course, once you know the truth, it all makes sense: Maki's actual chair being one of the two central seats of the arc, it barely moved and nobody noticed... except for the person who was sitting on it, that is to say Koyemshi's accomplice who naturally didn't say anything.
(it doesn't end there either: another chair switcheroo is revealed toward the end, shortly before the identity of Koyemshi's accomplice is revealed... or confirmed, for those who've been paying attention to the hints here and there... and then, there are also some surprises regarding some characters' blood relationships, some kids' ulterior motives, the purpose of the fights, Kokopelli and Koyemshi...)
Point is, there were years between the set-ups and resolution of the "mysteries", years between the foreshadowing / subtle hints / little oddities and their eventual pay-offs... and with the chair / light dots rules having been established by the writer early on, there was virtually no wiggle room for improvisation. It just had to be planned to begin with.
[In fact, some time after the series ended, the writer showed some of his early notes, and the whole thing was already there: the characters' backgrounds, their secrets, etc (not their names though: they were just designated by letters at that point)... That's six years before the series ended.
But I believe one should look at the actual plot rather than blindly trust the writer's word (he could have forged those early notes, after all), so feel free to disregard that part...]
'Not sure that was convincing enough (it isn't exactly easy to explain, especially considering English isn't my first language), so if you want extra details or clarifications, feel free to ask.
"During a summer camp, 15 children, 8 males and 7 females, find a grotto by the sea. Deep within they discover working computers and some electronic equipment, and later the owner, a man who introduces himself as "Kokopelli". Kokopelli claims to be a programmer working on a brand new game, in which a large robot has to defend the Earth against fifteen alien invasions. He persuades the children to test the game and enter into a contract. All but one of them agree, and a moment later they mysteriously awaken on the shore, believing what happened was just a dream.
That night, two giant robots appear suddenly by the beach. They find Kokopelli already inside and controlling the black robot in order to defeat the white enemy robot. During battle, he gives the children a brief tutorial on how to pilot the robot as he destroys the enemy. Once he has finished, he tells the children that they are on their own now and sends them back to the beach. As the children are teleported out, one child observes Kokopelli whispering "I'm sorry".
The next night, a small creature calling himself "Koyemshi" appears and claims to be their guide. He then teleports the children into the black robot."
OK, so...
Out of the 15 kids, 14 had "entered the contract" (the youngest was told by her brother not to take part in the game... the guy is a bit of an ass) by accepting Kokopelli's invitation to touch some kind of plate.
After Kokopelli's fight, when Koyemshi teleports the kids inside the cockpit of the robot, 14 chairs appear out of thin air: they're seats modeled after each of the pilots' memories/thoughts. It takes a few moments for the kids to all find "their" chair, especially considering one of the chair is actually... a baby bed. One of the girls, Maki, goes "oh, that's me!", ignores the obvious "what, you're pregos or something?" mockery, and explains that her adoptive mother is finally expecting a child, and she can't wait for her baby brother to be born, so...
Of course, nothing is as it seems (TM), starting with the supposed "game"...
The kids have 14 fights ahead of them, one for each pilot, and the stakes turn out to be... Well, if they lose a fight, the world ends right there and then. The kicker being that even if the designated pilot wins his/her fight, he/she will drop dead right after his/her victory. And of course, there's absolutely no way to simply throw the game. What's done is done, and the pilots are doomed: they will die in the next few months, no matter what. The best they can do is try and make sure the rest of the world doesn't die along with them.
And that's what the manga is about: you get to see how the kids cope with the horrible and seemingly arbitrary hand they've been dealt, how they spend their last days, with the story switching its focus from one character to the other as they win the consecutive battles and their little circle keeps shrinking with each victory.
Thematically, it's depressing as fuck, but also really well written, and a great deal deeper than the Lost hogwash.
But the "nothing is as it seems" extends beyond that, and there are some plot twists here and there so the readers will have something else on their mind than suicide. That's quality service, right there.
For one thing, some scenes show Koyemshi secretly meeting what appears to be an accomplice within the ranks of the kids.
Also, the characters eventually realize that their robot has some kind of mask on its head-analogue with a certain number of light dots on it, one dot for each remaining pilot... Thing is, right before dying, a pilot named Chizu who tried to use the robot to murder her rapists (long story) tells the other kids to take a good look at those dots. And 10 minutes later, two dots disappear: Chizu's and her unborn child's. The numbers don't add up anymore, and they realize one of them didn't enter the contract (on top of the little sister mentioned above, that is).
From the readers' perspective, the obvious conclusion would be that Koyemshi's accomplice is the odd one out, but things are actually more complicated than that...
As we've seen, each pilot had his/her chair, but:
Maki's baby bed was actually the seat Chizu thought up for her unborn child.
Koyemshi's accomplice stole Maki's true chair, the one she almost picked before spotting the baby bed, back in the first volume. You can actually catch a glimpse of an identical chair in Maki's room, in the background of one panel. A subtle hint for eagle-eyed readers. Also, when a pilot has to fight, his/her seat moves to the center of the elliptic arc formed by the 14 chairs.. and when it was Maki's turn, she wondered why "her" baby bed didn't move. Of course, once you know the truth, it all makes sense: Maki's actual chair being one of the two central seats of the arc, it barely moved and nobody noticed... except for the person who was sitting on it, that is to say Koyemshi's accomplice who naturally didn't say anything.
(it doesn't end there either: another chair switcheroo is revealed toward the end, shortly before the identity of Koyemshi's accomplice is revealed... or confirmed, for those who've been paying attention to the hints here and there... and then, there are also some surprises regarding some characters' blood relationships, some kids' ulterior motives, the purpose of the fights, Kokopelli and Koyemshi...)
Point is, there were years between the set-ups and resolution of the "mysteries", years between the foreshadowing / subtle hints / little oddities and their eventual pay-offs... and with the chair / light dots rules having been established by the writer early on, there was virtually no wiggle room for improvisation. It just had to be planned to begin with.
[In fact, some time after the series ended, the writer showed some of his early notes, and the whole thing was already there: the characters' backgrounds, their secrets, etc (not their names though: they were just designated by letters at that point)... That's six years before the series ended.
But I believe one should look at the actual plot rather than blindly trust the writer's word (he could have forged those early notes, after all), so feel free to disregard that part...]
'Not sure that was convincing enough (it isn't exactly easy to explain, especially considering English isn't my first language), so if you want extra details or clarifications, feel free to ask.
Because you can tell so much about me simply based on my posts in a Lost topic...big ander said:I know this is one of the hallmark internet insults, but Erigu truly seems like the kind of guy who has zero friends in real life.
(and you're right: it is one of the hallmark internet insults, probably because of how fucking stupid and lazy it is)
... And don't we all? :lolIf you act at all like your internet persona
And if you always pass judgment on people so quickly and based on so little information, I can't see anyone putting up with you.I can't see anyone putting up with you.
OH, HEY, SEE WHAT I DID THERE?
See my post above: Lindelof and Cuse just laughed it off..GqueB. said:I think it was more proof that they didnt have a plan at all really. Now I havent been following the post LOST fact finding but didnt Jack say they were dead for about 60yrs? Across the Sea would suggest that they were dead far longer than that.
Has there been any explanation that would explain this rather glaring plot hole?
Well, it should be, anyway... Of course, planning absolutely everything is unrealistic, for a TV show. Too many variables, too many things that could go wrong...Isnt it rather obvious that they didnt have everything planned from the get go.
But my point would actually be that there's a huge discrepancy between what Lindelof and Cuse claim they planned/knew and what they actually planned/knew. Adam and Eve is one glaring example.
"Far earlier", indeed... To the point where it was fucking ridiculous for those clothes to be in pretty much the same state as Yemi's.HenryGale said:I shrug it off to jack not bing a forensic scientist. Meaning, he doesn't know wtf he was talking about. It was just a way of throwing out a timeline to a period far earlier in the seres.
... 'Could be two thousands! :lolBOONE: He's a priest. How long do you think he's been dead?
LOCKE: Normally clothing would completely decompose within 2 years, but this is high quality polyester, could be 2 years, could be 10.
Oh, I am so, so 0wnd. The burn, it is excruciating. Well done, oatmeal. Well done.oatmeal said::lol
Manga is so lame, Erigu. It makes sense that you would be a fan.
Let me guess, you're saving money from your allowance and paper route to visit Japan?
It's a bit sad that neither you nor big ander can afford more than idiotic cheap shots (say... actual arguments? no? ah, well), but as long as you don't have a problem with that, cool for you, I guess?
Erigu said:I
Oh, I am so, so 0wnd. The burn, it is excruciating. Well done, oatmeal. Well done.
It's a bit sad that neither you nor big ander can afford more than idiotic cheap shots (say... actual arguments? no? ah, well), but as long as you don't have a problem with that, cool for you, I guess?
Just doing what you do...placing yourself on a pedestal while throwing little burns in every once in awhile.
You're one of the top posters in a thread about something that you loathe, I don't have to burn you to make you look pathetic. Your act is tired, and while you clamor for an argument, yours are never any good and are usually, at best, grasping at straws.
(EDIT)
That being said, I don't think you're a bad poster. Annoying? Absolutely. But you're a smart guy with what appears to be a good, albeit massive head on your shoulders.
If only you could use your time for good, rather than try to change the minds of people that will never listen.
SpeedingUptoStop
will totally Facebook friend you! *giggle* *LOL*
I can't remember a time when Erigu actually engaged someone in an argument where he acknowledged he was wrong, despite the numerous occasions it's been proven.
Can we just change the title to Erigu |OT|? I wouldn't want people to think this was a thread where you could engage in a discussion about Lost where there wasn't one person, day in day out, insisting that no one should derive any enjoyment from the show.
Can we just change the title to Erigu |OT|? I wouldn't want people to think this was a thread where you could engage in a discussion about Lost where there wasn't one person, day in day out, insisting that no one should derive any enjoyment from the show.
Also, I don't think it's fair to compare stories across mediums.
Manga isn't tied down to the problems that can riddle a television series. It is only limited by their imagination.
If their drawings all of a sudden didn't want to be in their story anymore, after being built into a big character (Eko), or a character showed glimpses of being important, only to take a job on another comic (Alpert, before Cane was cancelled and he returned to LOST), or a DUI limited one of the artwork's career on the show (Libby, Ana Lucia).
Hell, what if Desmond wasn't able to come back for Season 6 after his sexual harassment case?
There are so many variables in long form television writing that don't plague people writing for the page.
Manga isn't tied down to the problems that can riddle a television series. It is only limited by their imagination.
If their drawings all of a sudden didn't want to be in their story anymore, after being built into a big character (Eko), or a character showed glimpses of being important, only to take a job on another comic (Alpert, before Cane was cancelled and he returned to LOST), or a DUI limited one of the artwork's career on the show (Libby, Ana Lucia).
Hell, what if Desmond wasn't able to come back for Season 6 after his sexual harassment case?
There are so many variables in long form television writing that don't plague people writing for the page.
faceless007
Member
.GqueB. said:Isnt it rather obvious that they didnt have everything planned from the get go. For one they didnt actually know if this show would make it pass the pilot.
Lindelcuse have always been explicit about this: They signed on to make the pilot because they really liked it but it was just that, a pilot script. During the first season they were making it up as they went because they didn't have time to think about anything bigger, but before Season 2 they took the writers on the retreat to figure out the rest.
faceless007 said:Lindelcuse have always been explicit about this: They signed on to make the pilot because they really liked it but it was just that, a pilot script. During the first season they were making it up as they went because they didn't have time to think about anything bigger, but before Season 2 they took the writers on the retreat to figure out the rest.
This is how most writers write...they have ideas, and they start to write and things completely change as they go. The story takes over and tells itself, using the writer as the medium.
Look at The Stand, a brilliant book, but it was by no means figured out beforehand. He even had writers block during it because he didn't know where the hell he was going.
The difference is, when writing a book, you're afforded time to figure problems out that you don't have in television. You get one chance, no rewrites.
brandonh83
Banned
I think too big of a deal has been made concerning what they knew or didn't know, or what they didn't know until later or what they changed around. In the end, no one is ever going to know any details so it's really a non-issue. I guess it's fun to think about, but not really.
As has been pointed out, there is so much that revolves around television production. Not knowing how many seasons they can do, not being able to know how the actors are going to fare both on the show, their experience, and even what happens in their personal lives (DUI's, etc.), just so many things have to be taken into consideration.
It wasn't a smooth ride for them but it was never going to be. When you're trying to develop a story on such a huge scope that is rarely seen on television, you're going to run into hurdles. This doesn't apologize for all of the bad writing, as even I wished that things about the story were presented differently and more coherently, but at the same time I understand 100% that this wasn't made by magic, but by human beings, and with it comes human mistakes.
And like I've said more than once before, writers frequently change their minds and make up stuff as they go along. The difference between writing a book and writing a film script, especially episodic film scripts, is that once its shot an aired, you cannot go back and edit like a book can be edited. Lost isn't something that was completely finished first, with the writers and filmmakers looking over it, making sure absolutely everything makes sense before unleashing it to the public.
As has been pointed out, there is so much that revolves around television production. Not knowing how many seasons they can do, not being able to know how the actors are going to fare both on the show, their experience, and even what happens in their personal lives (DUI's, etc.), just so many things have to be taken into consideration.
It wasn't a smooth ride for them but it was never going to be. When you're trying to develop a story on such a huge scope that is rarely seen on television, you're going to run into hurdles. This doesn't apologize for all of the bad writing, as even I wished that things about the story were presented differently and more coherently, but at the same time I understand 100% that this wasn't made by magic, but by human beings, and with it comes human mistakes.
And like I've said more than once before, writers frequently change their minds and make up stuff as they go along. The difference between writing a book and writing a film script, especially episodic film scripts, is that once its shot an aired, you cannot go back and edit like a book can be edited. Lost isn't something that was completely finished first, with the writers and filmmakers looking over it, making sure absolutely everything makes sense before unleashing it to the public.
hamchan said:I like Erigu since his arguments are actually good.
Sure, when he's arguing and not just italicizing certain words in a sentence to really hammer in his sarcasm.
Right...oatmeal said:Just doing what you do...
Am I really the one who needs to take a step back, here? "People that will never listen"? Nothing's bothering you, there? :lolIf only you could use your time for good, rather than try to change the minds of people that will never listen.
Ah, well... The similarities with another topic I've been following these past few days are "amusing", anyway...
Not quite, no, but like I said right above, I don't think one could realistically expect TV show producers to plan everything in advance, indeed. Some amount of improvisation is unavoidable.I don't think it's fair to compare stories across mediums.
Manga isn't tied down to the problems that can riddle a television series. It is only limited by their imagination.
But again, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with improvisation: my problem is with the writers' claims vs. the reality, and their lack of care.
When Lindelof and Cuse pretended Adam and Eve would be "evidence" they knew where they were going, that was nonsense to begin with (again, too many possible ways to explain two skeletons in a cave), and when they finally came up with an explanation... well, it didn't exactly fit like a glass slipper, to put it gently. Someone points that out, and how do they respond? Do they explain that they had no choice but to change their plans? Not quite, no...
They're full of shit. Simple as that.
You know, I thought it was stupid of you to make such a broad generalization regarding manga earlier, but I find myself quite tempted to make a generalization about people who keep saying "lame" like that...Just read that spoilered post...sounds incredibly lame.
Perhaps you should first try and come up with something a tiny bit more interesting to say than simply "lame"...Perhaps i should go around through manga threads and post this...repeatedly.
For example?SpeedingUptoStop said:I can't remember a time when Erigu actually engaged someone in an argument where he acknowledged he was wrong, despite the numerous occasions it's been proven.
Hey, I derived some enjoyment from the show! :lolI wouldn't want people to think this was a thread where you could engage in a discussion about Lost where there wasn't one person, day in day out, insisting that no one should derive any enjoyment from the show.
'Merely saying that Lost wasn't a well-written show. At all. It was a shallow, inconsistent, nonsensical mess. If you can look past that though (or appreciate the trainwreck like I did), I guess there's some enjoyment to be had.
That would certainly seem reasonable. Many shows don't get past their first few episodes, so I can understand why writers wouldn't necessarily bother to try and finalize their whole mythology right away (still a bit cavalier for a show like that, but okay). Considering the success of the first season of Lost though... no excuse past that point.faceless007 said:During the first season they were making it up as they went because they didn't have time to think about anything bigger, but before Season 2 they took the writers on the retreat to figure out the rest.
But based on the nonsense that kept accumulating in the later seasons, there's simply no way they had the mythology worked out before season 2...
And honest writers are open about that.oatmeal said:This is how most writers write...they have ideas, and they start to write and things completely change as they go. The story takes over and tells itself, using the writer as the medium.
Lindelof and Cuse kept claiming they knew where they were going (again with the Adam and Eve thing) just so the viewers wouldn't tune out. They were selling their show on empty promises.
In other words, they're charlatans.
Spotless Mind
Member
Absolute bullshit. He is right on the money the majority of the time and, if anything, it is the blind fans like yourself who are resorting to personal attacks first.oatmeal said:Your act is tired, and while you clamor for an argument, yours are never any good and are usually, at best, grasping at straws.
Erigu said:Right...
Am I really the one who needs to take a step back, here? "People that will never listen"? Nothing's bothering you, there? :lol
Ah, well... The similarities with another topic I've been following these past few days are "amusing", anyway...
You know, I thought it was stupid of you to make such a broad generalization regarding manga earlier, but I find myself quite tempted to make a generalization about people who keep saying "lame" like that...
No, people in here aren't going to listen. It's been 7 months since the show ended. People have cemented their stance on the show...the key word being show. It's not something as large as religion vs. atheism, if you think it is, I believe it's you who needs to step back.
Manga attracts a person of a certain ilk, and I'm not part of it. LOST attracts people of a certain ilk, you are not part of it. Deal with it.
Spotless Mind said:Absolute bullshit. He is right on the money the majority of the time and, if anything, it is the blind fans like yourself who are resorting to personal attacks first.
Oh please, I rarely get involved with him. I tried sticking up for him in the beginning because I didn't agree with everyone trying to shut him down...but there becomes a point where it gets tiring. And when it branched into another thread, I called him a name and got banned.
We get it, he doesn't like LOST. You'd think he would want to move on at some point...especially when he claims that no one can have a proper argument with him, as if we're all too inferior to debate with him. People smarter than me have tried, and he refuses to acknowledge anything they say.
I don't think LOST is perfect, I have a lot of criticisms of the show, but that doesn't change the fact that no other show has connected with me like it did. Sometimes you need to stop analyzing the minutiae and appreciate what it did right...which Erigu refuses to do.
And you're comfortable with that? That doesn't seem like something one could be proud of, far from it...oatmeal said:No, people in here aren't going to listen.
On one hand, there's a guy who's oddly (according to you, apparently) persistent about listing arguments against a show's writing, and on the other, some guys who cover their ears and go "la-la-la"...
Sorry, but I'd pick the former any day.
Duh. Never said it was. Simply saying similar mechanisms appear to be at work, here...It's not something as large as religion vs. atheism
Considering you put me on ignore a while ago, that's still a bit much. :lolOh please, I rarely get involved in him.
('didn't know that :lol )when it branched into another thread, I called him a name and got banned.
Erigu said:And you're comfortable with that? That doesn't seem like something one could be proud of, far from it...
On one hand, there's a guy who's oddly (according to you, apparently) persistent about listing arguments against a show's writing, and on the other, some guys who cover their ears and go "la-la-la"...
Sorry, but I'd pick the former any day.
Duh. Never said it was. Simply saying similar mechanisms appear to be at work, here...
Considering you put me on ignore a while ago, that's still a bit much. :lol
('didn't know that :lol )
Of course you knew it, you keep logs of everything you ever post LOST-related. You refer back to it all the time as if each one of your posts was crafted by the Gods.
You being here reminds me of this:
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php/125917-Red-Sox-Thread-version-6.0/page41
Red Sox fans on a Yankee board, constantly fighting with Yankee fans. Why are the Sox fans there? I don't know...why do the Yankee fans have a thread devoted to Sox talk, yet get upset when pro-Sox talk takes place in there? I don't know...
There's a difference between covering your ears in a 'la-la-la' way, and simply not caring what you say because everything you have ever said is a tired retread of the criticisms LOST has received since the beginning.
What you write is not new, it's just more persistent.
No, I had no idea, honestly. Was it that topic?oatmeal said:Of course you knew it
But is it valid criticism?What you write is not new, it's just more persistent.
Erigu said:
Yes and some of it is. As I said, you're a smart guy. You shouldn't be wasting your time in here, or if you're going to waste your time in here (we still do), be a little more courteous. You always come off as pompous.
But I have yet to see you acknowledge anyones counterpoints to your arguments. You've never said "Oh, I didn't look at it that way...you're right" or something similar. You are the exact same as the people you criticize in this thread, only your blind hatred of the show causes you to cover your ears and say 'la la la' whenever proven wrong.
You're not smarter than everyone in here, you don't know the details more than everyone in here, yet you pretend to. And that is aggravating.
As a troll, you're the top of the line (I've never put anyone on ignore before you, and I regret putting you on it). But as a good poster in the LOST thread, you're lacking. Your personality is incredibly abrasive and your 'holier than thou' attitude doesn't help anyone take what you say seriously.
Not that anything I say matters because...well...only you are right.
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
switzerland's nice this time of year.
So in essence, I view the flash sideways as each person coming to terms with eventually losing their individually. It's a final opportunity for them to fully reflect (mirrors!) on all the baggage they accumulated during their borrowed time on earth. They get to appreciate their sense-of-self one last time, let it go, then move on to a collective amorphous existence. After that point, THERE IS NO SAYID. or Jack. or Locke. or Claire. It's truly The End for those beloved personas. They are now one with The Source, which is a little unsettling when I dwell on the thought too long.
The relationships that developed between these individuals all played into that great transitional circle-of-life process. Basically, I interpret the entire story as scattered fragments of The Island's Light, all finding ways to reconnect with the greater whole. When I see things that way, it's more hopeful than sad.
That's always the interpretation I heavily lean toward. That's why it's more poetic for me to imagine that the Losties were literally being recycled back into that very same life source, when the light engulfed the church.brandonh83 said:I love how the island could literally be seen as a force that governs life and death. Mother even says that the light is "life, death, and rebirth." I still can't believe that I'm one of the few people that ever talks about how the island's power could very well be the actual cycle of life-- when and how everyone is born, when and how everyone dies, and what direction they go in after death.
That's more or less why the writers didn't try to explain what the light is in literal terms. It's not something that can be put into words beyond "life, death, rebirth." In a way, the characters died and were reborn into the afterlife that they created (or rather, that the island created) but it was Jack and pretty much only Jack that had to let go and die on a note of faith/sacrifice before they could all be reunited.
There's really no telling how long their souls wandered the afterlife aimlessly, and completely lost, before Jack finally reached Christian's coffin, his constant. What I like about season 6 was how ambiguous it was about the afterlife-verse. Again we have no idea how long their souls wandered about; it's just that the last season only gave us the window into the period of time in the afterlife that mattered within the context of the story.
So in essence, I view the flash sideways as each person coming to terms with eventually losing their individually. It's a final opportunity for them to fully reflect (mirrors!) on all the baggage they accumulated during their borrowed time on earth. They get to appreciate their sense-of-self one last time, let it go, then move on to a collective amorphous existence. After that point, THERE IS NO SAYID. or Jack. or Locke. or Claire. It's truly The End for those beloved personas. They are now one with The Source, which is a little unsettling when I dwell on the thought too long.
The relationships that developed between these individuals all played into that great transitional circle-of-life process. Basically, I interpret the entire story as scattered fragments of The Island's Light, all finding ways to reconnect with the greater whole. When I see things that way, it's more hopeful than sad.
Damn... that is long :lol Will definitely read, think I'll hold off till morning, though. Groggy as hell.Erigu said:Bokurano
I guess your post was removed before I could see it, then...oatmeal said:
Cool.some of it is.
Because I'm confident in my opinion that the show was fucking stupid and its producers moronic charlatans?if you're going to waste your time in here (we still do), be a little more courteous. You always come off as pompous.
Should I simply say the writing was "somewhat flawed" so it would be less offensive to the fans? That's not my opinion. I think it was dreadful on nearly every level.
Sooo... what, I have to agree once in a while, as an act of good faith? Is there a quota to meet so I could be considered "courteous"? How does that work?I have yet to see you acknowledge anyones counterpoints to your arguments. You've never said "Oh, I didn't look at it that way...you're right" or something similar.
If I disagree, I will say as much and explain why. "Sorry."
'Guess I'm putting more focus on the validity of an argument than on the attitude of the one who's presenting it, and not caring all that much about interlocutors who can't do that...Your personality is incredibly abrasive and your 'holier than thou' attitude doesn't help anyone take what you say seriously.
(not that I think you're one to give lessons anyway, after your silly "no wonder you like manga: it's all lame!" routine...)
Erigu said:I guess your post was removed before I could see it, then...
Cool.
Because I'm confident in my opinion that the show was fucking stupid and its producers moronic charlatans?
Should I simply say the writing was "somewhat flawed" so it would be less offensive to the fans? That's not my opinion. I think it was dreadful on nearly every level.
Sooo... what, I have to agree once in a while, as an act of good faith? Is there a quota to meet so I could be considered "courteous"? How does that work?
If I disagree, I will say as much and explain why. "Sorry."
'Guess I'm putting more focus on the validity of an argument than on the attitude of the one who's presenting it, and not caring all that much about interlocutors who can't do that...
(not that I think you're one to give lessons anyway, after your silly "no wonder you like manga: it's all lame!" routine...)
And the routine continues...it's my fault for getting sucked in again.
For someone who has analyzed 100% of LOST, you sure do a poor job of analyzing my posts.
About the recurring mirrors... I like to think that was an in-joke regarding the fact the show was all smoke and mirrors.Catalix said:It's a final opportunity for them to fully reflect (mirrors!) on all the baggage they accumulated during their borrowed time on earth.
oatmeal said:And the routine continues...
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Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
Surprisingly, that works too. See, so many layers!!1!Erigu said:About the recurring mirrors... I like to think that was an in-joke regarding the fact the show was all smoke and mirrors.
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